DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
edited June 2022
I expect there will be some players at both extremes of the spectrum who will be disappointed.
Hopefully, there will be tons of players in-between those extremes who enjoy the PvX gameplay.
It all comes down to the systems put in place in games where pvp can happen anywhere if not almost anywhere. At the end of the day an environment that is created with no oversight such as law systems just leads to a bad anarchical type of experience. At the end of the day i do believe however no matter, it will always not be catered to solo players since the game is designed behind a social aspect before pvp. I totally expect to be ganked many time over even as a member of a large guild who contains to a certain territory. It will then just be a matter of what guilds are aimed towards on how they tackle these problems in there surrounding areas. Not that all guilds will not be totally transient and nomadic but i suspect most will opt for a close to a city experience then from there venture out and back again. I am interested to see if all guilds will just end up being pure pvp and in all actuality that may break the beauty of its own game design. At the end of the day, its the players choice the life he/she will live. Stabby mc stab face or choir boy.
Please if anybody doesn't like pvp then play all of those pve games out there that either have opt in pvp or no pvp at all. This game was made for specific reasons and one of them is that mmos with focus on openworld pvp don't really exist anymore.
We've reached a certain age where we just want to sit in our chairs and enjoy a good game, just stay in the predictable zone of bots and AI.
Just like me, there are many players who hate PvP, and who don't want 1% of it. I hope the kind of frustrations we're going to have are just not being able to kill a very difficult boss. I hope PvP combats in Caravans, World PvP and Nodes for example, don't take us away from AoC.
Developers, I'm really excited about what's being presented. It's all very beautiful! I'm super excited for the next tests and the upcoming release!
"we've reached a certain age where self entitlement and following trends/meta's are always superior to an original thought or idea and where critical thinking is left only to the superficially qualified.
In this world, the only escape is a good game and/or being satisfied dealing with the crummy AI from the opposite sex or your cat/dog".
I've edited the pure cringe to edge lord.
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santiagoMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
The truth is players have gotten too comfortable with todays MMORPGS's and never really experienced any meaningful combination of PvP and PvE that has been implemented the right way.
Many MMO's are catering to separate PvE and PvP from MMO's to a point where they both feel like two very different games.
To combine both is where the real engagements come from that you get from MMO's. If you don't want that aspect then I suggest sticking to modded Skyrim which is a wet dream for PvE enjoyers, even to this day...
Nonsense. There's been plenty of MMORPGS with meaningful pvp/pve content and in most every case the non-consentual PvP elements end up ruining the game long term as griefing is rampant and no system is effective at reducing it.
Imo PvP is fine as long as it is optional. A game with a strong core PvE and PvP system should have optional PvP for those that don't want to participate.
Never understood why people think it's reasonable to force PvP on those that don't want to do so. When a game has compelling PvE gameplay by definition it's PvE done right and it should be an option unpoisoned by forced PvP.
Nonsense. There's been plenty of MMORPGS with meaningful pvp/pve content and in most every case the non-consentual PvP elements end up ruining the game long term as griefing is rampant and no system is effective at reducing it.
Imo PvP is fine as long as it is optional. A game with a strong core PvE and PvP system should have optional PvP for those that don't want to participate.
Never understood why people think it's reasonable to force PvP on those that don't want to do so. When a game has compelling PvE gameplay by definition it's PvE done right and it should be an option unpoisoned by forced PvP.
And there's plenty opt-in pvp games. And I think it's fine to have one non-opt-in pvp game once a decade (give or take maybe another game).
While PKing someone for farming locations/bosses gives you way bigger rewards and a chance to just remove your corruption by grinding (in the mob farming case).
And that reasoning makes me think that gatherers won't be bothered all that much, so why should the corruption be overtuned just based on their feedback.
If I had a dollar for every time someone said that a PvX game won't have griefing for resources (or other things) because of the design of the system.... yeah I'd be a rich man.
If I had a dollar for every time someone said that a PvX game won't have griefing for resources (or other things) because of the design of the system.... yeah I'd be a rich man.
And the griefers will be punished. If that's not enough for the victims of said griefing, I guess Ashes will die sooner or later. But I'd rather see it die the game it wants to be than live for maybe a bit longer and still die, because it would become just like all the other non-pvp games and gamers will just return to their old nostalgia games instead of sticking around in Ashes.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Imo PvP is fine as long as it is optional. A game with a strong core PvE and PvP system should have optional PvP for those that don't want to participate.
The truth is players have gotten too comfortable with todays MMORPGS's and never really experienced any meaningful combination of PvP and PvE that has been implemented the right way.
Many MMO's are catering to separate PvE and PvP from MMO's to a point where they both feel like two very different games.
To combine both is where the real engagements come from that you get from MMO's. If you don't want that aspect then I suggest sticking to modded Skyrim which is a wet dream for PvE enjoyers, even to this day...
Nonsense. There's been plenty of MMORPGS with meaningful pvp/pve content and in most every case the non-consentual PvP elements end up ruining the game long term as griefing is rampant and no system is effective at reducing it.
Imo PvP is fine as long as it is optional. A game with a strong core PvE and PvP system should have optional PvP for those that don't want to participate.
Never understood why people think it's reasonable to force PvP on those that don't want to do so. When a game has compelling PvE gameplay by definition it's PvE done right and it should be an option unpoisoned by forced PvP.
Because Ashes is a PvP game where making PvP optional would shatter many founding principles of its design. It's not that difficult of a concept to comprehend.
If I had a dollar for every time someone said that a PvX game won't have griefing for resources (or other things) because of the design of the system.... yeah I'd be a rich man.
And the griefers will be punished. If that's not enough for the victims of said griefing, I guess Ashes will die sooner or later. But I'd rather see it die the game it wants to be than live for maybe a bit longer and still die, because it would become just like all the other non-pvp games and gamers will just return to their old nostalgia games instead of sticking around in Ashes.
I will 100% dec and camp them if they try to take my stuff.
If I had a dollar for every time someone said that a PvX game won't have griefing for resources (or other things) because of the design of the system.... yeah I'd be a rich man.
People throw the word "griefing" around like it's a power word. What do you consider griefing, exactly? Playing the game? I assure you, someone mining would call me killing them for their ore "griefing". Again, I don't see the fuss, the general PVP systems are watered down to hell, this isn't Mortal Online or EVE, lol.
We've reached a certain age where we just want to sit in our chairs and enjoy a good game, just stay in the predictable zone of bots and AI.
Just like me, there are many players who hate PvP, and who don't want 1% of it. I hope the kind of frustrations we're going to have are just not being able to kill a very difficult boss. I hope PvP combats in Caravans, World PvP and Nodes for example, don't take us away from AoC.
Developers, I'm really excited about what's being presented. It's all very beautiful! I'm super excited for the next tests and the upcoming release!
This game does not have opt in PvP as it would break its very design.
My suggestion to you is become the best crafter/ monster killer you can be and find symbiotic relationships in Verra to where Wolves of War like myself would always come to protect you.
As a general rule of thumb, bank often. Then from there start to stretch out your banking runes so your losses don’t cut into your gains much.
We've reached a certain age where we just want to sit in our chairs and enjoy a good game, just stay in the predictable zone of bots and AI enjoy the feeling of hunting people for their loot or trying to escape them.
Just like me, there are many players who hate love PvP, and who don't want a lot of it, as long as it's fun and not absolutely abusable/boring. I hope the kind of frustrations we're going to have are just not being able to kill a very difficult boss not meaningless and that we'll learn from our mistakes, both PvE and PvP wise. I hope PvP combat in Caravans, World PvP and Nodes don't take us away from AoC are fun experiences, even when I end up losing.
Developers, I'm really excited about what's being presented. It's all very beautiful! I'm super excited for the next tests and the upcoming release!
Therefore, because I want "opt-in" PvP to be a fun part of the game and also "forced PvP" (PKing) to exist, the game must have what I want.
See what I did there? Not entitled at all, right?
🎶Galo é Galo o resto é bosta🎶
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darthadenMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
If you're looking for a more relaxing casual MMO you should check out Palia. It's a upcoming MMO more focused on crafting, gathering, housing, and non raid pve content. From what I've heard it sounds more like a MMO version of The Sims or Animal Crossing.
It's a game i'm looking forward to (as well as Ashes) since it'll be a completely different experience then Ashes. If it's as good as I hope it's going to be I'll probably play it as my second game when I'm just not in the mood for competitive gameplay.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
True enough...
Palia is an MMO Community Sim. It will probably release before Ashes.
LOTR: Return to Moria is an 8-person Co-op Survival Crafting Game. It's also UE5, so should be a fun world to explore. Spring 2023 release date.
@Marpo
What is it about Ashes that makes you think you want to play this PvX game instead of a game that has no PvP?
Which is why quite often in L2 the og location-holder would flag up first. If you see a dude running to your place of farm, you'd hit him first to let him know you're ready to throw down and already have the advantage of the first hit.
Though L2's ttk was way shorter than what Ashes wants to have, so it might not be as big of an issue here.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
The person who attacks you doesn't have to stop if you don't fight back.
They could choose to kill you and gain Corruption.
I'm also one of those "just want to sit back and have a good time" aging dude, and have been through the frustrations of not being able to do a single quest in the high end areas on a WoW pvp server without having to deal with the harrassments from players of the opposite faction.
But I think life in Ashes won't be as harsh/ugly as some ppl may expect.
1. There's the corruption system, that limits gankers' abilities to go on a full-on long time killing spree. Unlike in WoW where you can essentially pick a fight with anyone from the opposite faction without consequences, and gankers can bascially camp you until you logout.
2. The most frequently mentioned pvp contents (caravan, sieges) are essentially group contents, and you can find strength in numbers and make things less scary / stressful, or even fun for a casual player.
3. It seems to me that PvE players' dislike & fear for open-pvp partly stems from a lack of confidence -- not the confidence in pvp skills, but confidence in the ability to ESCAPE unfavorable encounters. Which I'd argue is being reinforced by the PvE meta and design & balance of some games:
- PvE focused contents often drive players into a meta that prioritize maxing sustainable dps/hps, and builds around this meta often forgoes utilities, mobilities, versatilities, survivabilities etc. for more dps.
- Players who play these builds get into a habit of not using their character's entire toolkit, but only the part that boosts dps.
- Meanwhile PvP has a focus on bursts, mobilities, survivabilities ... basically everything that the PvE meta builds have forgone.
When these are combined with the ability to easily swap between builds *when out of combat*, it results in a tendency that PvEers are often caught in their PvE optimized builds by PvPers in their PvP builds, and as a result often get bursted / cc-locked to death, without being able to fight back or even run becoz their PvE builds do not provide the necessary utilities for them to do so. And these experiences contributes to their sense of hopelessness and negative feelings towards involuntary pvp. This was the case for me on WoW pvp servers, and is even more the case in Eve Online.
4. ... And IMO a solution to the issues mentioned in 3 is:
- Giving each class enough tools (mobility skills, defense cooldowns, CCs that aren't useless just becoz the opposing player is higher level) to help players disengage
- Balance pvp in a way that makes each fight longer, make it more difficult to burst down an opponent in mere seconds.
- Make respecs *non-trivial*, and create an environment that discourage ppl from running around in fully PvE optimized specs -- even if you don't want to fight, you're encouraged to at least carry the tools that help you escape (think bear spray).
And judging from info on wiki and statements from devs in the past, AoC is likely to have them all.
So I'm not that worried about the pvp aspect in Ashes atm.
I hope you will find mmo that fits to you, but AoC shouldn't change anything because that is why we are all here waiting for the game. If you don't like it just go and find another game.
Honestly people complaining about it being a gank fest are people tht want to play solo without interacting with people and over exaggerating so they can have a non pvp server. I am a heavy ganker and does it as much as possible but I don't go over whatever the system allows.
Those who say zerg or p2w without any reasonably drafted context have zero experience with PvP or most forms of online competition.
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akabearMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
L2 was a pvp game, played the first few years without a single fight!.....until joined a clan in conflict! I imagine life in AoC has the same potential... join a neutral or diplomatic clan, or low profile solo and can avoid pvp if you so choose.
L2 was a pvp game, played the first few years without a single fight!.....until joined a clan in conflict! I imagine life in AoC has the same potential... join a neutral or diplomatic clan, or low profile solo and can avoid pvp if you so choose.
That's pretty much how I picture it too, very well said.
We've reached a certain age where we just want to sit in our chairs and enjoy a good game, just stay in the predictable zone of bots and AI.
Just like me, there are many players who hate PvP, and who don't want 1% of it. I hope the kind of frustrations we're going to have are just not being able to kill a very difficult boss. I hope PvP combats in Caravans, World PvP and Nodes for example, don't take us away from AoC.
Developers, I'm really excited about what's being presented. It's all very beautiful! I'm super excited for the next tests and the upcoming release!
I dont get why people keep insisting for pvp changes or pve servers.
If you dont like pvp dont play the game, pvp is crucial for most of the systems inside the game. There are plenty mmos that dont require pvp.
If you dont like open world pvp and pvp in general play other game simple.
Forced PvP is the mmo killer. I've been playing mmo's for 20 years. Not a single fantasy based mmo has been able to do it.
Ultima Online was completely, mandatory PvP. It was very successful, player killers turned red and had to avoid town. If you died you dropped EVERYTHING. This worked well for years, then the game changed due to higher up decisions, killing off the risk with insurance, blessed items, and creating entire worlds where pvp was not allowed. It certainly didn't improve the game. Did you work hard for the thing you lost? Yes. That drives the need to become a better player with better skills and better strategy. It drives the need to continually go out and get more cool items.
Comments
Hopefully, there will be tons of players in-between those extremes who enjoy the PvX gameplay.
This game is not for you, move along...
In this world, the only escape is a good game and/or being satisfied dealing with the crummy AI from the opposite sex or your cat/dog".
I've edited the pure cringe to edge lord.
Nonsense. There's been plenty of MMORPGS with meaningful pvp/pve content and in most every case the non-consentual PvP elements end up ruining the game long term as griefing is rampant and no system is effective at reducing it.
Imo PvP is fine as long as it is optional. A game with a strong core PvE and PvP system should have optional PvP for those that don't want to participate.
Never understood why people think it's reasonable to force PvP on those that don't want to do so. When a game has compelling PvE gameplay by definition it's PvE done right and it should be an option unpoisoned by forced PvP.
Because Ashes is a PvP game where making PvP optional would shatter many founding principles of its design. It's not that difficult of a concept to comprehend.
I will 100% dec and camp them if they try to take my stuff.
People throw the word "griefing" around like it's a power word. What do you consider griefing, exactly? Playing the game? I assure you, someone mining would call me killing them for their ore "griefing". Again, I don't see the fuss, the general PVP systems are watered down to hell, this isn't Mortal Online or EVE, lol.
This game does not have opt in PvP as it would break its very design.
My suggestion to you is become the best crafter/ monster killer you can be and find symbiotic relationships in Verra to where Wolves of War like myself would always come to protect you.
As a general rule of thumb, bank often. Then from there start to stretch out your banking runes so your losses don’t cut into your gains much.
Cheers.
We've reached a certain age where we just want to sit in our chairs and enjoy a good game, just stay in the predictable zone of bots and AI enjoy the feeling of hunting people for their loot or trying to escape them.
Just like me, there are many players who hate love PvP, and who don't want a lot of it, as long as it's fun and not absolutely abusable/boring. I hope the kind of frustrations we're going to have are just not being able to kill a very difficult boss not meaningless and that we'll learn from our mistakes, both PvE and PvP wise. I hope PvP combat in Caravans, World PvP and Nodes don't take us away from AoC are fun experiences, even when I end up losing.
Developers, I'm really excited about what's being presented. It's all very beautiful! I'm super excited for the next tests and the upcoming release!
Therefore, because I want "opt-in" PvP to be a fun part of the game and also "forced PvP" (PKing) to exist, the game must have what I want.
See what I did there? Not entitled at all, right?
It's a game i'm looking forward to (as well as Ashes) since it'll be a completely different experience then Ashes. If it's as good as I hope it's going to be I'll probably play it as my second game when I'm just not in the mood for competitive gameplay.
Palia is an MMO Community Sim. It will probably release before Ashes.
LOTR: Return to Moria is an 8-person Co-op Survival Crafting Game. It's also UE5, so should be a fun world to explore. Spring 2023 release date.
@Marpo
What is it about Ashes that makes you think you want to play this PvX game instead of a game that has no PvP?
Though L2's ttk was way shorter than what Ashes wants to have, so it might not be as big of an issue here.
They could choose to kill you and gain Corruption.
But I think life in Ashes won't be as harsh/ugly as some ppl may expect.
1. There's the corruption system, that limits gankers' abilities to go on a full-on long time killing spree. Unlike in WoW where you can essentially pick a fight with anyone from the opposite faction without consequences, and gankers can bascially camp you until you logout.
2. The most frequently mentioned pvp contents (caravan, sieges) are essentially group contents, and you can find strength in numbers and make things less scary / stressful, or even fun for a casual player.
3. It seems to me that PvE players' dislike & fear for open-pvp partly stems from a lack of confidence -- not the confidence in pvp skills, but confidence in the ability to ESCAPE unfavorable encounters. Which I'd argue is being reinforced by the PvE meta and design & balance of some games:
- PvE focused contents often drive players into a meta that prioritize maxing sustainable dps/hps, and builds around this meta often forgoes utilities, mobilities, versatilities, survivabilities etc. for more dps.
- Players who play these builds get into a habit of not using their character's entire toolkit, but only the part that boosts dps.
- Meanwhile PvP has a focus on bursts, mobilities, survivabilities ... basically everything that the PvE meta builds have forgone.
When these are combined with the ability to easily swap between builds *when out of combat*, it results in a tendency that PvEers are often caught in their PvE optimized builds by PvPers in their PvP builds, and as a result often get bursted / cc-locked to death, without being able to fight back or even run becoz their PvE builds do not provide the necessary utilities for them to do so. And these experiences contributes to their sense of hopelessness and negative feelings towards involuntary pvp. This was the case for me on WoW pvp servers, and is even more the case in Eve Online.
4. ... And IMO a solution to the issues mentioned in 3 is:
- Giving each class enough tools (mobility skills, defense cooldowns, CCs that aren't useless just becoz the opposing player is higher level) to help players disengage
- Balance pvp in a way that makes each fight longer, make it more difficult to burst down an opponent in mere seconds.
- Make respecs *non-trivial*, and create an environment that discourage ppl from running around in fully PvE optimized specs -- even if you don't want to fight, you're encouraged to at least carry the tools that help you escape (think bear spray).
And judging from info on wiki and statements from devs in the past, AoC is likely to have them all.
So I'm not that worried about the pvp aspect in Ashes atm.
Those who say zerg or p2w without any reasonably drafted context have zero experience with PvP or most forms of online competition.
That's pretty much how I picture it too, very well said.
I dont get why people keep insisting for pvp changes or pve servers.
If you dont like pvp dont play the game, pvp is crucial for most of the systems inside the game. There are plenty mmos that dont require pvp.
If you dont like open world pvp and pvp in general play other game simple.
Ultima Online was completely, mandatory PvP. It was very successful, player killers turned red and had to avoid town. If you died you dropped EVERYTHING. This worked well for years, then the game changed due to higher up decisions, killing off the risk with insurance, blessed items, and creating entire worlds where pvp was not allowed. It certainly didn't improve the game. Did you work hard for the thing you lost? Yes. That drives the need to become a better player with better skills and better strategy. It drives the need to continually go out and get more cool items.