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Secondary class discussion.

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Comments

  • AzheraeAzherae Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Azraya wrote: »
    Azraya wrote: »
    Azraya wrote: »
    CROW3 wrote: »
    Oh, well - that's fine. I was sure - sure - you were going to rehash one of the topics-that-shall-not-be-named.

    Nope
    😆
    I'm not going to try that again until I actually get to see more and play around with it some, if @Azraya wants to read through the old one though, by all means

    i'm reading it now.

    Enjoy dude 😎

    Read it. Sounds like a good class.
    I hope thats the direction they go with how your secondary class changes you.

    Let me throw one back at you:

    Tank+Rogue-Nightshield

    Shadow Step: Become invisible. Other players can only detect you when you get too close to them.

    Slit: A melee ability that does moderate damage and prevents enemy spell casting for a short duration.

    Poisoned Blade: Dip your weapon in a powerful poison, while active your basic attacks will poison the enemy.
    (this poison does damage over time and slightly lowers physical defense)

    Quickfoot: Self-buff that while active, increases your evasion rate and crit rate.

    Dark Rush: Directional dash that gives you a small damage absorbing shield.

    Quick Resolve: Self-casting ability that removes one random debuff and briefly increases damage reduction.

    Adrenaline Control: Raise max HP and movement speed for a duration.

    Just some ideas that are neat to think about.

    See
    Tank rogue being a dodge tank all about avoidance instead of blocking I'm 100% for. Maybe not stealth, unless it is for a surgical engage. Because I feel like if you have something that stealths you it would make you drop agro, which is pretty non tank of you. Know what I mean?

    Yeah, youre right.
    I only added stealth in the hopes that a dev saw this and thought it was cool
    because i really want to play an evasion tank with stealth. i REALLY want to.

    If this is not possible, as I always say...

    WE RIOT!

    (whether or not it's a good idea is a different question).
    ♪ One Gummy Fish, two Gummy Fish, Red Gummy Fish, Blue Gummy Fish
  • SirChancelotSirChancelot Member, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Azherae wrote: »
    Azraya wrote: »
    Azraya wrote: »
    Azraya wrote: »
    CROW3 wrote: »
    Oh, well - that's fine. I was sure - sure - you were going to rehash one of the topics-that-shall-not-be-named.

    Nope
    😆
    I'm not going to try that again until I actually get to see more and play around with it some, if @Azraya wants to read through the old one though, by all means

    i'm reading it now.

    Enjoy dude 😎

    Read it. Sounds like a good class.
    I hope thats the direction they go with how your secondary class changes you.

    Let me throw one back at you:

    Tank+Rogue-Nightshield

    Shadow Step: Become invisible. Other players can only detect you when you get too close to them.

    Slit: A melee ability that does moderate damage and prevents enemy spell casting for a short duration.

    Poisoned Blade: Dip your weapon in a powerful poison, while active your basic attacks will poison the enemy.
    (this poison does damage over time and slightly lowers physical defense)

    Quickfoot: Self-buff that while active, increases your evasion rate and crit rate.

    Dark Rush: Directional dash that gives you a small damage absorbing shield.

    Quick Resolve: Self-casting ability that removes one random debuff and briefly increases damage reduction.

    Adrenaline Control: Raise max HP and movement speed for a duration.

    Just some ideas that are neat to think about.

    See
    Tank rogue being a dodge tank all about avoidance instead of blocking I'm 100% for. Maybe not stealth, unless it is for a surgical engage. Because I feel like if you have something that stealths you it would make you drop agro, which is pretty non tank of you. Know what I mean?

    Yeah, youre right.
    I only added stealth in the hopes that a dev saw this and thought it was cool
    because i really want to play an evasion tank with stealth. i REALLY want to.

    If this is not possible, as I always say...

    WE RIOT!

    (whether or not it's a good idea is a different question).

    You know
    That's an excellent point, just because it's bad doesn't mean they shouldn't have it either
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    I'm expecting X/Rogue to have some form of Stealth augment School.
  • DolyemDolyem Member, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    CROW3 wrote: »
    *Points to 'Tank'

    @SirChancelot - I know what you're thinking. Don't do it. :s

    Come oonnn 😆
    I don't think it should work for everything, but I'd love to see a few combinations here and there that if fully spec'ed into being that role it could create a tank or healer.

    That's why I'm so eagerly looking forward to A2 and beta. I'm hoping they will have some functions for testing giving us easy respec of skill points and secondaries to allow for experimentation. I absolutely love finding the weird shit that shouldn't work.

    The vietnam flashbacks from those conversations I just got are PROFOUND lmao. I do agree though.
    GJjUGHx.gif
  • SirChancelotSirChancelot Member, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Dolyem wrote: »
    CROW3 wrote: »
    *Points to 'Tank'

    @SirChancelot - I know what you're thinking. Don't do it. :s

    Come oonnn 😆
    I don't think it should work for everything, but I'd love to see a few combinations here and there that if fully spec'ed into being that role it could create a tank or healer.

    That's why I'm so eagerly looking forward to A2 and beta. I'm hoping they will have some functions for testing giving us easy respec of skill points and secondaries to allow for experimentation. I absolutely love finding the weird shit that shouldn't work.

    The vietnam flashbacks from those conversations I just got are PROFOUND lmao. I do agree though.

    😂🤣😂
  • PenguinPaladinPenguinPaladin Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    CROW3 wrote: »
    *Points to 'Tank'

    @SirChancelot - I know what you're thinking. Don't do it. :s

    I think we change the name of the tank-tank class "guardian" to "Panzerkampfwagen VIII Maus" as it is the largest military tank ever made, and sticks more to the asthetics of the "tank" class
  • SirChancelotSirChancelot Member, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    CROW3 wrote: »
    *Points to 'Tank'

    @SirChancelot - I know what you're thinking. Don't do it. :s

    I think we change the name of the tank-tank class "guardian" to "Panzerkampfwagen VIII Maus" as it is the largest military tank ever made, and sticks more to the asthetics of the "tank" class

    I've said make the tank called guardian
    And make tank/tank called bulwark or phalanx or something like that
  • DolyemDolyem Member, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    CROW3 wrote: »
    *Points to 'Tank'

    @SirChancelot - I know what you're thinking. Don't do it. :s

    I think we change the name of the tank-tank class "guardian" to "Panzerkampfwagen VIII Maus" as it is the largest military tank ever made, and sticks more to the asthetics of the "tank" class

    I petition to rename the tank class as the Leman Russ
    GJjUGHx.gif
  • For some of them I can't imagine augments being little changes:

    Mage - Ranger (Spellhunter): The name suggests me that he is a Mage who fights by shooting magic "arrows" made of mana instead of typical Mage cast. Like a Ranger but using a mana bow and shooting spells.

    Mage - Fighter (Battle Mage): I always though battle mages like a melee magic fighter. Although I don't know how augments can be applied here and not change that much the class gameplay I imagine them using in moment created mana swords/weapons and fighting like warriors.

    Mage - Rogue (Shadow Caster): Maybe a Mage who can cast "stealth" spells and other players can't really see what they're doing.

    Mage - Tank (Spellstone): A Mage focused on barriers. They make mana walls or tinier shields to stop or reduce incoming damage.

    Others like Fighter - Mage (Spellsword) or Ranger - Mage (Scion) would simply use their wielded weapons but enhanced by magical Mage augmentations, to swing their sword coated with fire or shoot their arrows on magic fire.
  • PenguinPaladinPenguinPaladin Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    I think the biggest thing we need is to nail down what happens when a secondary class is applied. And at the moment all we know is the augment system.

    I think skills need to be reskinned, for the flavor of their overall secondary class when it is picked. This should be strictly a "cosmetic" change.

    Mage becoming a spell hunter as an example. Fireball, could simply become fire arrow. Same functionality, new name and animation to fit the class.

    Then adding your augments as your boost of having a secondary class on top of that.

    Now the augment system needs to be able to produce the changes people expect from their class name as well.

    Battle mage as an example. You think of a battle mage as a melee magic fighter, so perhaps the fighter needs an augment that lowers range of the skill its applied to, and trades it for damage, or survivability.

    So a battle mages fire ball, get reskined to flame slash, which is still thrown as a projectile, but with the range reduction damage up augment, becomes a true flaming sword strike.


    Something along those concepts for every class needs to happen.
  • SirChancelotSirChancelot Member, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Dolyem wrote: »
    CROW3 wrote: »
    *Points to 'Tank'

    @SirChancelot - I know what you're thinking. Don't do it. :s

    I think we change the name of the tank-tank class "guardian" to "Panzerkampfwagen VIII Maus" as it is the largest military tank ever made, and sticks more to the asthetics of the "tank" class

    I petition to rename the tank class as the Leman Russ

    You're gonna disrespect the baneblade like that?
  • rayleghraylegh Member
    edited July 2022
    @PenguinPaladin Agree. But I don't think the flavour should be only cosmetic, I mean it's really not the same ability anymore, so there must be some minor changes at least. If there are no differences with the original you don't really need to add a second archetype nor 64 classes, and I think it's precisely the point Steven wants to make. Maybe reduced cast time, damage, or something else for that Fire arrow but it doesn't have to be drastic. This way you have the flexibility to decide how you want an ability to work, without being tied to an specific effect.

    I like your approach of Battle mages too. That they don't necessary need to be close enough like melee ranged to be able to slash.
  • PenguinPaladinPenguinPaladin Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    raylegh wrote: »
    @PenguinPaladin Agree. But I don't think the flavour should be only cosmetic, I mean it's really not the same ability anymore.

    But it is the same skills in essence. In the class system that has been described so far. all your skills come from your base class. You do not gain new skills from choosing a secondary class. A class that starts as a mage will have the same skills to choose from no mater which secondary class they choose. Its only the augments that change the skill. Thats why i think the skill names and animations need to change to suit the flavor of the full class name. Because we already know the functionality does not change on gaining a secondary class.

    The augments are the only change to the skill functionality. That we know of so far.

    The only real example we have of the augment system is the charge attack, which is then augmented by teleportation. Which is also a very self explanatory example, so its hard to infer how other augments would work.

    So the spellstone, mage-tank as an example. Unless the mage already has a skill to make some form of enviornment effect, like a slow puddle, black hole, or wall. It is not very likely an aument will change one of the mages skills to an environment effect, like a wall or so on. Because your skills are from your base class. If mage cant make a wall, and augment isnt going to make a skill that doesnt make something somewhat similar to a wall, into a wall skill.

    You really need to look at the 64 classes as 8 classes with 64 flavors. At least until more information comes out. Because as of right now, we know all skills comes from the base class, and secondary class only gives you augments. Wich means there are 8 sets of skills to choose from, and augments to change them a bit.
  • Yeah, I know. I said that I'm totally ok augmentations making small changes, that was my point. But not really sure about the Spellstone example. Imo whatever mage spell can become some sort of barrier with Tank augmentations. You just have to think how it will work.

    Idk, I'll just trust Intrepid. xD
  • AzrayaAzraya Member
    Dygz wrote: »
    I'm expecting X/Rogue to have some form of Stealth augment Sch
    raylegh wrote: »
    @PenguinPaladin Agree. But I don't think the flavour should be only cosmetic, I mean it's really not the same ability anymore.

    But it is the same skills in essence. In the class system that has been described so far. all your skills come from your base class. You do not gain new skills from choosing a secondary class. A class that starts as a mage will have the same skills to choose from no mater which secondary class they choose. Its only the augments that change the skill. Thats why i think the skill names and animations need to change to suit the flavor of the full class name. Because we already know the functionality does not change on gaining a secondary class.

    The augments are the only change to the skill functionality. That we know of so far.

    The only real example we have of the augment system is the charge attack, which is then augmented by teleportation. Which is also a very self explanatory example, so its hard to infer how other augments would work.

    So the spellstone, mage-tank as an example. Unless the mage already has a skill to make some form of enviornment effect, like a slow puddle, black hole, or wall. It is not very likely an aument will change one of the mages skills to an environment effect, like a wall or so on. Because your skills are from your base class. If mage cant make a wall, and augment isnt going to make a skill that doesnt make something somewhat similar to a wall, into a wall skill.

    You really need to look at the 64 classes as 8 classes with 64 flavors. At least until more information comes out. Because as of right now, we know all skills comes from the base class, and secondary class only gives you augments. Wich means there are 8 sets of skills to choose from, and augments to change them a bit.

    why even call them 64 different classes at all? if what youre saying is true then picking your 2nd class will only adjust things like range, damage type, cooldown and things of that nature. They shouldnt be saying its a 64 class system if this is the case. Because its not. Its 8 classes with multiple trees. From what everyone here is saying tho... it just doesnt sound like this game has anything more than 8 classes that you can build a few different ways.
  • DolyemDolyem Member, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Dolyem wrote: »
    CROW3 wrote: »
    *Points to 'Tank'

    @SirChancelot - I know what you're thinking. Don't do it. :s

    I think we change the name of the tank-tank class "guardian" to "Panzerkampfwagen VIII Maus" as it is the largest military tank ever made, and sticks more to the asthetics of the "tank" class

    I petition to rename the tank class as the Leman Russ

    You're gonna disrespect the baneblade like that?

    That'd be a title earned
    GJjUGHx.gif
  • SirChancelotSirChancelot Member, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Otr wrote: »
    Azraya wrote: »
    why even call them 64 different classes at all? if what youre saying is true then picking your 2nd class will only adjust things like range, damage type, cooldown and things of that nature. They shouldnt be saying its a 64 class system if this is the case. Because its not. Its 8 classes with multiple trees. From what everyone here is saying tho... it just doesnt sound like this game has anything more than 8 classes that you can build a few different ways.
    8 classes with multiple something. Might not be trees.
    But when would we call something a class?

    For normal players, when they create a character, it would be overwhelming to give them a list of 64 possibilities. Most are familiar with the base 8 classes.
    Later, as they level, giving them options from the other classes can be a way to prevent them to roll a new character.

    I've seen before in rpg games humans, elves and half elves.
    If the secondary classes will have 50% impact (in the released version or later after more updates), would we call them half class1-class2 ?

    Even if they don't have 50% impact I fully see people calling them by what they do now. Saying rogue/Hunter or mage/tank is probably going to be the easiest, therefore, most common thing they will be called.
  • GimlogGimlog Member
    If a Rogue has a ability like " shadow stab" and I go shadow guardian I understood it to go something like this :
    " Shadow stab , travel to the enemy shadow and deal x damage.
    And with a tank augment " mark a ally , within a Y radius, for Z time , allow you to quickly go to him and deflecte the first incoming damage."

    So to me it will keep the overall idea of the ability, but will change it according to the class flavour or school.
  • CROW3CROW3 Member, Alpha Two
    Otr wrote: »
    But when would we call something a class?

    We’ve been debating this question for like 5 years, and still don’t have definite answers.

    Here’s just my opinion:

    I still define classes by 2nd edition ADnD rules, which could be augmented by kits. By that measure Ashes has 8 classes, each with 8 kits.

    Intrepid defines the primary archetype + secondary archetype as a ‘class’.

    It’s fairly semantic until we get into some serious testing.

    AoC+Dwarf+750v3.png
  • RoxiRoxi Member, Alpha Two
    take a look at the old l2 system:
    archers / mages / knives were divided mainly by attack speed, frequency and maximum crit. And already in this we saw a big difference. In AOC, it is quite possible that there will be the same division, but based on 2 archetypes.
    5ls3nob7lngp.gif
  • bloodprophetbloodprophet Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Otr wrote: »
    Azraya wrote: »
    why even call them 64 different classes at all? if what youre saying is true then picking your 2nd class will only adjust things like range, damage type, cooldown and things of that nature. They shouldnt be saying its a 64 class system if this is the case. Because its not. Its 8 classes with multiple trees. From what everyone here is saying tho... it just doesnt sound like this game has anything more than 8 classes that you can build a few different ways.
    8 classes with multiple something. Might not be trees.
    But when would we call something a class?

    For normal players, when they create a character, it would be overwhelming to give them a list of 64 possibilities. Most are familiar with the base 8 classes.
    Later, as they level, giving them options from the other classes can be a way to prevent them to roll a new character.

    I've seen before in rpg games humans, elves and half elves.
    If the secondary classes will have 50% impact (in the released version or later after more updates), would we call them half class1-class2 ?

    As of now they have said we get to choose the secondary at level 25. So in the beginning we will choose one of eight. Augmentations will come in as we level, through social organizations and possibly racials and other places, need to wait and see what they come up with and test it.
    There was a thread year or more ago regarding if this time frame was to early/late. I am of the mind test and feedback before making a big deal out of it.
    Most people never listen. They are just waiting on you to quit making noise so they can.
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