Maps have always been a secondary standard. Pretty much every MMO map has the standard hidden area until you explore it and then its unlocked for good.
I think there is a way to be a lot more innovative ways to keep the map up to date. I think there should be a secondary profession that everyone can have called cartography. Everyone has a basic map they explore to update BUT if I explore the whole map, It would be cool if I could then take what I've learnt and make copies of my map to sell.
Maybe the grade / quality of the map could be how many locations I have explored. For example if you are looking at buying my map and it says 100 locations and you go to buy someone else's and it says 80 locations, you can tell that my map has more information in it.
Classic world map, the fact we cannot teleport will make it very hard to keep the map updated and so we would miss a lot of world event informations
A classic map could be "discovered" through the leveling process but I would say for the end game players looking for content
opening the world map and seeing an event icon pop up then head towards it would be more enjoyable than visiting the world every once in a while for as many years as we plan on playing the game
Not being able to see events on the other side of the world that we cannot join anyway due to travel time wouldn't feel like a problem, but missing out reachable events would be annoying.
Making the world map too hard to update or acquire would be a bad thing as probably people will come out with ways to show the live world map on a webpage giving them a big advantage over players that will want to play the game how its supposed to be played.
In my opinion the issue with anything regarding map cartography are third party web sites that would offer updated map data. This would render any kind of skill useless.
A good question is should the map even update?
We have crafting in the game. I think one of the crafting professions in the game should be able to craft compasses. The better these are the more information you can receive. An example: Low level compass gives N>E>S>W directions that can be mounted to the player HUD, Mid tier would give Lat / Long, Max tier would allow the player to ping the map to indicate your location and party member locations. (If you die there is a % chance this may break, requiring you to purchase another. Keeping the profession alive.)
The map it self is blank. While you explore it opens with little data. Just a graphical outline that can indicate Lat and Long. No ping to indicate I am here.
This would encourage exploring the map and learning your surroundings. As long as the world is alive and ever changing with migration patterns, pvp battles and seasons then there would be no third party website to ruin the exploration of the world you have built.
In most modern day games to much information is given. with mini maps and maps in general. In this case I feel Less is way more.
I have a radical thought: Don't make an ingame Map. Leave it out.
The 2D old map and minimap are traditional elements that can be substituted with HUD elements in the 3D world which would encourage to explore and learn the world of Vera. I am NOT talking about the game being more "hardcore". Potentially quite the opposite. But instead let players actually learn the world. Give them ingame waypoints to get to a place. Make Roads highlight on a button press. Let players choose a destination where they want to go to.
The goal would be that players get immersed in the actual 3D World instead of remembering 2D images in their head of the world. So they would explore and learn the 3D world.
Steve talked about showing events through visual and sound queues instead of UI. Why not innovate in that aspect too?
This would also liimit the amount of information a player could receive on what is happening in the world because they can't see the whole map. They would have to be told that 2 zones further the big dragon came up or that their city will be under siege (more social interaction).
All a player could see is how to get to their destination by highlighted waymarker at the side of the roads (they could see that highlighted through objects) and in the world (use disctinct objects in the world itself as waypoints). Additionally quests, events, traders, towns, a compass and zone borders can also be selected through a list that shows the walking distance to the target.
These POI would either be always discovered or would become discovered. But they can also be created and shared among players via a syntax text string. So eventually there will be a database that players will share for everything. (Likely a fan website will be created. So an export of a characters waypoints would help a lot with that.)
But that would stay optional to use and at the same time increase the convenience over time for players that want efficiency.
“Imagination is the only weapon in the war with reality.”
In the beginning I like that the map is blank and has to be explored to reveal the areas.
Hypothetically, if the map is fully explored before any land marks form, I think you should have to rediscover landmarks(Taverns, nodes, dungeons,caves,etc) after they form so that they update on your map. The only exception is when a metropolis node is formed and when the node you are a citzen of levels up. The idea that a metropolis is that rare and has been said will change the world of vera, I think it would make sense that that is an event that would be wide spread knowledge in the world. Which brings me to another way I think that the map could be updated, NPC's telling you of new locations that may have formed during a node level up. If you were to speak to an NPC that came to the node when a new cave was formed they may have attempted to explore it and found that they could not. In other words NPC's will update the map for you if they want to give you a quest that is in that area. Or, of course, they could just be mentioning it to you similar to how some locations were discovered in Skyrim. An NPC is talking to their friend about the castle where the Dawnguard are reforming and the map then updates with a new location you have to explore.
Map mechanics I would like to see:
1) A shared marker for party memebers, so that anyone can mark a spot they would like to go.
2) If Nodes are at war, citizens of the warring nodes can see a territory line of both theirs and the enemy node so that they can see where they are most likely to see enemy players or NPCs
3) Drawing paths on the map that are also shared between your party. This to either share a safe route your group has decided on, or to show a directive for which quests you are looking to do in what order.
I love the idea of having to re-explore or update your map. Bigger plus if it can be turned into somewhat of a profession. I'd love to have to go buy a more updated map from rhe local market. I think with cities growing and falling and resources not being permanent fixtures it gives a great opportunity to explore this. Steven's also talked about trying to have players known on the server for professions (this guy crafts sick swords etc). Map making is a perfect thing to fit into this idea
On third party websites, we have to also remember that the reason a person contributes to this kind of project is because of just how annoying it is to discover resources in the first place in the actual game, compared to a third party site. It may not be worth it to go through the hassle of a 3rd party website if there's a good enough map updating system through libraries. Also, there's an advantage of not sharing the information on a 3rd party website as compared to your local node library. And that is that you're potentially hiding a bit of information from competitors across the map. Do you want just your node friends and the people you're playing with to know there's a max quality resource that just spawned locally, but not give that information to your competitors who are seeking to destroy your node and push back your progress? Then a local node library is a better tool than a global 3rd party website.
For the kind of game Ashes is thinking about becoming, I think having a "fog of war" effect will be very appropriate.
The reasons can be endless,
1) It can give home field advantage to a defending guild in a region as far as people coming in to raid caravans.
2) It will lead to that new game feeling often. Imagine playing in a zone often, and your friend who was gone for a few weeks gets on and your like oh yea lets go to that new village, and you start leading them down a previously dead end road. For them they will think you are taking them the wrong way and will be amazed as they see the terrain and path open up on their map.
3,4,5.....) many many more reasons
I think exploring the map is good as the overall terrain will not change often, and it can be pseudo greyed out like in the old age of empires PC games from the 90s, and as you go back it refreshes itself on your own map.
I think being a part of a guild or alliance that controls a metro area, the map should remain updated in all territories related to / controlled by you.
Everything else should be fogged up once you log out for the day.
While the idea of some kind of cartography system like other people have mentioned sounds interesting, I think having an obstacle like that would quickly lead to the development of a 3rd-party tool that would crowdsource that data and kind of make the original idea only useful to those that willingly choose to avoid "meta" ways of going about the game. Because of that, I'm not sure that putting a lot of effort into developing complex ways of updating maps is worth the effort it would take.
I'd like to disagree with this.
Just because there are people who wish to not play the game the intended way that doesn't mean cool features shouldn't be in the game.
I think this sort of reasoning you are going for strangles innovation and creativity.
There will always be people who for example make and read guides. They don't want to experiment, they don't want to find out things on their own, yet the team does not focus on these people when they design their class system.
If you always look at things through the optics of "what is the feature that people might just circumvent" you'd always end up with a barebone game, cause there will be always people who just want to play the game their way.
On third party websites, we have to also remember that the reason a person contributes to this kind of project is because of just how annoying it is to discover resources in the first place in the actual game, compared to a third party site. It may not be worth it to go through the hassle of a 3rd party website if there's a good enough map updating system through libraries. Also, there's an advantage of not sharing the information on a 3rd party website as compared to your local node library. And that is that you're potentially hiding a bit of information from competitors across the map. Do you want just your node friends and the people you're playing with to know there's a max quality resource that just spawned locally, but not give that information to your competitors who are seeking to destroy your node and push back your progress? Then a local node library is a better tool than a global 3rd party website.
Not only that 3rd party websites will have a tough time following the maps of every server. If it's done at a library as you suggest then info is specifically accurate to your own server
Would you like to see a traditional MMO world map that, once explored, updates with the ever-changing state of the world, or would you prefer to see more innovative ways of keeping maps up-to-date?
Mapping is important, the topography of a region can be complex, with certain elements that must be considered, such as whether or not a part of the area begins to rise in elevation or decline, letting the person know where to exactly head in order to progress onward.
One thing we know for certain is that flying mounts are going to be quite rare to obtain. Not everyone is going to be able to have access to this feature right away, so players are going to need good indication on pathways throughout Verra, especially in mountainous regions or regions which lack flatlands or fields.
Being that terrain will change based on the development of nodes, maps will need updating. Having to constantly re-discover your map would be a daunting feature, but not impossible. Perhaps if a player has already discovered an entire zone's map, should the node change and their map become reset, their circumference of map discovery should increase in size since they're familiar with the zone demographic already.
Example: First time entering map, you can discover 100 feet ahead of you in every direction when exploring, like a giant, walking 100ft circumference.
Then the zone's node updates, and the map gets reset, but now the player has 150 feet circumference to discover the map, or 200+. Makes things still a challenge, but uses the player's experience in their favor.
Each node that the player has discovered the map on should be saved to their account in case the zone ever retracts or pushes toward a different, already obtained node level, and it should be -account bound-.
I like the idea of a map you need to continue updating to get the latest info on, however I think that it would need to be done in a way that isn't too much of a chore to avoid it becoming tedious and annoying.
I think a good way to do this would be having a collaboration between communities (ie. nodes, guilds, allying nodes etc.) instead of a solely individual map that must be updated by you and only you. On top of this, I think having decaying of some aspects of the map as well as the preservation of others could be a good way to keep exploration and mystery in the game.
I think having an individual map that needs updating JUST on your own would be way too big of a task for just one player considering how vast Verra is. I think a good solution to this would be allowing collaborating with your guild or node or family (or all of them combined), as well as potentially allying guilds or other communities to have one collaborative map for those involved in the sharing of their map knowledge. Each individual players exploration would remove the fog of war on their own map in real time and update it on everything around them, and this could be contributed to the overall combined map of the previously mentioned parties.
In terms of how they would contribute to the collaborative map as well as update their own map with everyone elses information, that could be done in many different ways depending on how realistic or easy you want to make it. You may need to manually visit a node or castle or freehold that is apart of the collaborative map to give your individual map information and also to fully update your individual map on the latest information from everyone else who is participating, and everyone else would need to do the same. This way I think you could have a fun system where you need to interact with others or your communities in some way to share your own map knowledge and update your own map, and everyone will be helping each other out in exploring and sharing information. With this method, you could also confer with an individual or group out in the world and share your map information just between yourselves if you're too far away from a contributing node or castle etc. and that way you would be able to update your map by combining just your information and theirs, rather than the information from the community as a whole, until you can get back to a node and fully update it again.
Perhaps there would be requirements in order to have more than just your node's collaborative map knowledge. For example, higher node progression could unlock map collaboration with allying nodes. Another example, the skill of the scribes in your guild could unlock map collaboration with allying guilds, or nodes etc. In general think adding greater progression in terms of who you can share map knowledge with that ties in with the scribing profession or node progression could be a fun mechanic and also make scribing very rewarding.
If manual updating by going to a node or community area is too much of a hassle then you could also just make everyone's maps update in realm time, or have progression that allows for that sort of thing.
The other thing I think could be played with when it comes to maps is decaying of map information, and the preserving of other map information. If you or people who are participating in the combined map knowledge haven't visited an area for a while, the information on the points of interests, buildings, creature locations or warnings etc could decay, however the general landscape could remain on your map as that is less likely to have drastically changed. Perhaps the old information could be slightly more opaque on your map to signify that is it potentially outdated, rather than a fog of war just covering it back up entirely again. This way you can still see the map and and you could still try and plan routes using the outdated map, however you might end up finding out when you get there that the points of interest are vastly different, perhaps a fully progressed node is now in the middle of the valley you were going to visit. Doing something like this would mean that the areas closer to your node or guilds location etc would usually be pretty updated most of the time, however places on the other side of the map that aren't visited as frequently would remain mysterious and unknown, and you would only know what has been going on over there based on the latest knowledge provided by your communities until it is visited again.
To summarise, I think a manually updating and collaborative map that can become outdated over time could be a really fun and interesting addition to make the world continue to feel like a mystery and to preserve the aspect of exploration in the game as well as provide another benefit to encourage collaboration and alliances between different communities. I think that the way it is done could vary quite a lot and if it isn't made too difficult to keep updated to a reasonable extent then it would be a positive thing. I do agree with some people that if it is not done in a way that still remains enjoyable rather than becoming an obstacle, then it could definitely be a negative thing, so if the map is made simple and easy just like many other MMOs then I wouldn't be upset by it, but I definitely think there is a lot of potential for a much more intricate system if it is done right.
I agree with a lot of the people saying that a fog of war so that you can't see when a node changes or gets destroyed would be a lot more fun than getting notified or seeing it change on your map in real time. It adds another level of communication between people too. I think overtime large events that change the map would be a good way to refresh the game. I also think a continuous cycle of new minor events to establish more storytelling in the world would be a lot of fun. Maybe a travelling circus going from city to city is around for a month, or small limited time quests like to catch an npc thief! It would feel so much more alive if random people come and go or small map changes add new storytelling elements.
I think it'd be cool to have different animals with new roaming patterns so that you're not just farming the same areas. Maybe there's outposts between cities where players can pay a small fee to set up a limited time booth to sell goods. I'm definitely the type of player that wants a reason to explore areas again to see what's new.
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PalmerEldMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Here's my ideal for a MMORPG fog of war. I would like the library to be a big part of personal map updates. You visit an area, your personal map updates. But if you want, you can go to a scientific node library building, and update that library to more recent information you've collected. Then, others can go to that library building to update their maps as well.
I was going to post exactly this. It would also have the advantage of giving everyone a reason to visit their local scientific node once in a while.
I think the library becomes available once the node reaches village stage, so I imagine every region is likely to have one even if the local city or metropolis is a different type of node.
i want the map to go back into fog of war as it changes, that way you know there's something new to explore and maybe you get a little exploration xp from it
Knowing something changed would be really bad i think. You just explore everything one time and then you'll know a new dungeon or event has started somewhere because you don't see it on the map anymore.
When something new appears it should start with only some people finding out about it (maybe during a gathering run or a noob who's still exploring a low level area) and they get to decide how they want to act upon that knowledge. This creates more story and interaction.
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PalmerEldMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
edited July 2022
It definitely shouldn't auto update by the way. Going out and exploring and finding things should matter. Then you can tell other people about it if you like, or let them find out for themselves.
I like the idea of having cartography as an artisan profession, and this is how I envision it working:
All players will be able to purchase or receive a basic map of the world/region from an npc. That map will have very little detail, like only showing the major landmasses and terrain like mountains and large rivers as well as level 5/6 nodes.
Cartographers will be able to create and sell more detailed maps of an area depending on their skill and the time they spend creating it. They will level up their cartography skill by exploring the world and creating maps. As they level up this skill, some of the details that can be seen one their maps would be:
Level 1: more geographic features like streams and lvl 3 and 4 nodes.
Level 2: level 1 and 2 nodes and all geographic features
Level 3: the locations of dungeons, world bosses, common resources, etc.
Level 4: uncommon/rare resource locations, animal herds, etc.
Cartographers will have a time sink when creating a map relative to the size of the area the map contains. Similar to how the best crafting is done in Science Metropolis’s and the best processing is done in freeholds, the best cartography should be done either on high level ships, in high level nodes that contain docks/harbors, or possibly in freeholds with a geographic boost if they are near a river/ocean.
When a player opens their map to a region they have purchased a map for, it should show all the details that the map level reveals as well as when they most recently got a map for that region. Since Ashes features an ever-changing environment it will be possible for some map details to be out of date so players will need to purchase a more up to date map.
To prevent cartographers from being able to level up their skill and just passively produce high level maps forever, they will need to continue to explore the areas they want on a map before they can create it.
It highly depends if you guys want to add a skill point or talent system for the map or not. If so, you can technically implement any indicators for example to get to see weather conditions or active events and such, depending on your progress in expertise.
On the other hand, you can keep the map simple. An actual map is kind of minimalistic and doesn‘t show you more than necessary. Then it could be like an “explore to unlock“ system or you could be able to buy parts of the map from a vendor in the city of the region maybe.
Another idea is to add carthography as a profession. This would unleash a lot of potential in regards of gimmicks such as being able to get to hidden places or do treasure hunting. It also increases player interaction by alot.
I really like your last point. Needing a map marker to have for example a dungeon entrance become visible would prevent the use of third party tools!! And maybe rogues, scouts or cartographers are the only ones able to find these hidden entrances without having the map marker.
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RalizekMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
A few things:
If Steven has said several times that Verra is flat, why the constant use of globes?
While It would be nice for the zones to shift with changing ZOI, I don't think it needs to be more than a simple shifting overlay. Like a tab on the map, you can check to see the ZOI map. Trying to add and remove PoI every time a cave freezes or a mine opens and so on, is a nice thought but entirely too much work for what it's worth. That's also one more thing to data mine, making it easier to farm. Stop adding new things and finish the core product, after five years you don't have 25% off the game built.
I think the world map should update with the basic word-of-mouth information such as node levels and massive world events after you’ve been to an area, but specific location information like mines, dungeons, etc should require visiting a cartographer or library to obtain up-to-date info
Classic world map, the fact we cannot teleport will make it very hard to keep the map updated and so we would miss a lot of world event informations
A classic map could be "discovered" through the leveling process but I would say for the end game players looking for content
opening the world map and seeing an event icon pop up then head towards it would be more enjoyable than visiting the world every once in a while for as many years as we plan on playing the game
Not being able to see events on the other side of the world that we cannot join anyway due to travel time wouldn't feel like a problem, but missing out reachable events would be annoying.
Making the world map too hard to update or acquire would be a bad thing as probably people will come out with ways to show the live world map on a webpage giving them a big advantage over players that will want to play the game how its supposed to be played.
Events will probably be scaled while taking the amount of participants into consideration. If 5 cities go to an event near 1 city (because they notice it on their map) that only needed 40 people to clear it would be kinda pointless. But if only the closest city notices the event, they can first try it themselves and maybe if they don't have enough power or are missing something else they can ask allied cities for help.
My thoughts of a fun and innovative way to do the map.
At the start, the entire map should be under a fog of war [fog of ash?] until explored and should remain uncovered
All landmarks should be updated on the map when you explore them
If a landmark has not been exposed yet because of node levels, it is not marked (a dungeon entrance only opening up at node stage 4 won't be marked on anyone's map until its appropriate node levels to 4)
All landmarks you have visited should have a "Days old" counter next to it, or possibly a color gradiant with Yellow being 0-1 day and red being 20+ days.
This would give your character the knowledge of saying "When I was there last, a stage 5 node existed" but when you get there it might have been sieged and destroyed and now the landmark on the map has been removed.
I also would appreciate the ability to mark your own map with custom markers. That way we can start marking zones we are interested in based off of mob types, resource types etc... and not have to create our own form of mapping outside of the game.
Possibly include options from the scribe/artisan that allows someone to craft portions of the map and sell them. If i'm in the winter mountains and am thinking about going to the riverlands for a resource - I could buy a 2-day old map from a previous adventurer that would update my map to his marked landmarks and timers so I can see how the land has changed and be more educate to plan my route/adventure.
While the idea of some kind of cartography system like other people have mentioned sounds interesting, I think having an obstacle like that would quickly lead to the development of a 3rd-party tool that would crowdsource that data and kind of make the original idea only useful to those that willingly choose to avoid "meta" ways of going about the game. Because of that, I'm not sure that putting a lot of effort into developing complex ways of updating maps is worth the effort it would take.
I agree with this, most people would use a 3rd party tool as soon as someone made one to work around a cartography system. Especially because it would put you at a competitive advantage against other players. Someone could even make a website where you'd have to pay to see their maps and spend their time galloping around as many servers as they could every day for map updates. Multiboxing might make it pretty efficient, you could do 10+ servers at once with a good rig and without botting.
I dislike when games show you the entire map from the beginning because you don't actually have to explore anything to see where things are and it just feels easy.
I think a fog of war system like the ones in RTS games (Warcraft, Company of Heroes) would work really well. If you are not familiar with such mechanics, basically the map only updates automatically for your own faction's territory or allies. Everything else has to be explored or re-explored in order to see new structures and enemies. So essentially that would translate in Ashes to Nodes you are a citizen of, allied with, or a Guild/Alliance you are apart of. I also like the idea of being able to buy/sell maps or share with others what you have discovered. This would add an interesting dynamic to the economy and give players who maybe don't want to explore as much a way to update their world map.
This is important for a number of reasons:
1. It creates a need for explorers/scouts to stay updated on neutral/enemy node's positions or advancement, resources and dynamic events. This also flows perfectly with the plans for libraries because such information could then be stored there and provide updates for your allies.
2. Creates a sense of wonder for the player as they explore and discover the world opposed to just pulling up the map and instantly seeing any point of interest they want.
3. Creates a challenge for nodes/alliances to stay updated on the world and communicate amongst themselves, something that has diminished in MMOs these days.
4. Provides another benefit to being apart of a group and using teamwork.
I think that the best system would be to discover areas that are greyed out naturally and use people by association like guild members be able to give the info that there is a goblin incursion in said area on map. Or a town crier to post notifications to the public might be a cool touch. So say you are in a area and see something thats not there on the map typically, after within a certain area of a event say 20 feet away you could then confirm it with a town crier and the town scryer would confirm and spread the word kind of like a broadcaster perhaps either in a yell format or true broadcast to immediate full area. I dont ever see cartography being a thing unless you guys drastically are going to be changing the map alot. Because after awhile it will be a dead profession. I think its kinda useless unless for marking shops, guilds things like that. But id just rather have my own map to mark and make notes. But full on cartography, no.
It depends what the "innovative ways of keeping maps up-to-date" are. If it is a benefit to living in, lets say, a metropolis science node then I'd say yes, but if it is re-exploring where you have already been then I'd say no. You want people to be busy in game doing their own thing farming/leveling/wars/caravans etc. If someone hears that an area of the map changed on the other side of the world they'll be excited to go explore the new landscape at first, but then it becomes tedious to keep exploring what you have already explored. UNLESS, this is how you are trying to get people to not get comfortable in one spot and to keep moving like nomads.
MMO players hate tedious crap, but will still do it if it provides benefits, so make it beneficial somehow someway (even if you're max level).
I think the more content you can give people the happier they'll be, because they can pick and choose everyday which content to do. No one HAS to do ALL the content AoC provides, but give them an option to re-explore lands they've already explored or they won't care what is new in that area and won't explore it. The downside to that would be people not seeing when nodes level up until they get to that node, which in turn prevents more people from visiting that node. Which can lead to a different area getting their money instead of the node near them that leveled up. The plus side is that node can look to wage war on the higher level node. So, this question is actually a game changing question for people who want to be mayors of nodes/guilds that run the node. Also, it affects everyone else building up both nodes then produces a war for the pvpers. Therefore, you should do whichever is better for the game itself and not just what people want.
It might be better to start off with having to re-explore areas and if it isn't producing the content as intended then go to an updatable map. If you start with an updatable map, then switch it to people having to re-explore areas it will make everyone upset (even if there are benefits) because they'll be used to having an updated map at all times. These are my thoughts of what I would like to see, but also keep in mind (not only to the devs, but the players) that every little decision will have an effect on the game in some other way/shape/form. So what you may be used to/like/prefer may not be beneficial for the games health as a whole. We all want Ashes of Creation to rise like a phoenix, but not burn to ashes.
When you start your character's journey, the map should be completely covered with fog of war. Walking around can lift that fog and give you exploration experience. It also marks some points of interest on the map (big bosses that were in direct line of sight for the player, and such). But those marks only last a week (just for example). And after that week you'd need to go back to that place to "remap" them. The overall fog of war will stay lifted and show you the layout of the land itself (cause the underlying environment won't change), but all the markers will become "outdated" (maybe change color or smth like that), even if the location itself hasn't changed at all.
I think smth like this would allow people to have beneficial fun exploring the whole world once and then have reason to explore some of the parts again in the future, if they want to keep up-to-date info on it.
Ideally node citizenship would allow you to update your map through some node building, where any connections your node has would show up on your map. This would give you the most recent info on other nodes building up and maybe some big dungeons opening up around them. Would be a great way to learn what has changed in the game if you haven't played for a while.
I think it should be as realistic as possible in the sense that your character has to literally see something for it to appear on your map.::: Once you have explored an area and updated your map with it, and cleared the fog on the map then as you leave that area a fog of war should descend on that area depending on how great the risk is that the area may change due to various circumstances if you leave that area. The greater the local conflict or turmoil or bandit presence or the local dragons hunger for villagers increases the risk that an area may be changed or destroyed the more opaque the fog of war should descend on that area as you leave it. I think the opaque fog should remain until your character literally would see something so what's around the street corner is still a fog until your character actually rounds the corner and sees it. The key thing to draw people to an area is when they notice upon opening their world map that a previously mapped area is no longer clear on their map but is in some varied state of decay indicated by the opacity of the fog of war over that area. If a dragon attacks a town the dragon itself should be a radius of deep opacity on the map and the area of opacity should move with him and spread out behind him indicating his path of destruction.
I want a unique mmo, I want a new reference, innovate! .
give a fog of war, make the cartographer's job, push to the exploration.
I want the events and addons to change the map regularly, forcing us to constantly discover.
I don't want to play lineage 2 or war craft 2.
i want intrepid to be creative!!!
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I think there is a way to be a lot more innovative ways to keep the map up to date. I think there should be a secondary profession that everyone can have called cartography. Everyone has a basic map they explore to update BUT if I explore the whole map, It would be cool if I could then take what I've learnt and make copies of my map to sell.
Maybe the grade / quality of the map could be how many locations I have explored. For example if you are looking at buying my map and it says 100 locations and you go to buy someone else's and it says 80 locations, you can tell that my map has more information in it.
A classic map could be "discovered" through the leveling process but I would say for the end game players looking for content
opening the world map and seeing an event icon pop up then head towards it would be more enjoyable than visiting the world every once in a while for as many years as we plan on playing the game
Not being able to see events on the other side of the world that we cannot join anyway due to travel time wouldn't feel like a problem, but missing out reachable events would be annoying.
Making the world map too hard to update or acquire would be a bad thing as probably people will come out with ways to show the live world map on a webpage giving them a big advantage over players that will want to play the game how its supposed to be played.
A good question is should the map even update?
We have crafting in the game. I think one of the crafting professions in the game should be able to craft compasses. The better these are the more information you can receive. An example: Low level compass gives N>E>S>W directions that can be mounted to the player HUD, Mid tier would give Lat / Long, Max tier would allow the player to ping the map to indicate your location and party member locations. (If you die there is a % chance this may break, requiring you to purchase another. Keeping the profession alive.)
The map it self is blank. While you explore it opens with little data. Just a graphical outline that can indicate Lat and Long. No ping to indicate I am here.
This would encourage exploring the map and learning your surroundings. As long as the world is alive and ever changing with migration patterns, pvp battles and seasons then there would be no third party website to ruin the exploration of the world you have built.
In most modern day games to much information is given. with mini maps and maps in general. In this case I feel Less is way more.
The 2D old map and minimap are traditional elements that can be substituted with HUD elements in the 3D world which would encourage to explore and learn the world of Vera. I am NOT talking about the game being more "hardcore". Potentially quite the opposite. But instead let players actually learn the world. Give them ingame waypoints to get to a place. Make Roads highlight on a button press. Let players choose a destination where they want to go to.
The goal would be that players get immersed in the actual 3D World instead of remembering 2D images in their head of the world. So they would explore and learn the 3D world.
Steve talked about showing events through visual and sound queues instead of UI. Why not innovate in that aspect too?
This would also liimit the amount of information a player could receive on what is happening in the world because they can't see the whole map. They would have to be told that 2 zones further the big dragon came up or that their city will be under siege (more social interaction).
All a player could see is how to get to their destination by highlighted waymarker at the side of the roads (they could see that highlighted through objects) and in the world (use disctinct objects in the world itself as waypoints). Additionally quests, events, traders, towns, a compass and zone borders can also be selected through a list that shows the walking distance to the target.
These POI would either be always discovered or would become discovered. But they can also be created and shared among players via a syntax text string. So eventually there will be a database that players will share for everything. (Likely a fan website will be created. So an export of a characters waypoints would help a lot with that.)
But that would stay optional to use and at the same time increase the convenience over time for players that want efficiency.
Hypothetically, if the map is fully explored before any land marks form, I think you should have to rediscover landmarks(Taverns, nodes, dungeons,caves,etc) after they form so that they update on your map. The only exception is when a metropolis node is formed and when the node you are a citzen of levels up. The idea that a metropolis is that rare and has been said will change the world of vera, I think it would make sense that that is an event that would be wide spread knowledge in the world. Which brings me to another way I think that the map could be updated, NPC's telling you of new locations that may have formed during a node level up. If you were to speak to an NPC that came to the node when a new cave was formed they may have attempted to explore it and found that they could not. In other words NPC's will update the map for you if they want to give you a quest that is in that area. Or, of course, they could just be mentioning it to you similar to how some locations were discovered in Skyrim. An NPC is talking to their friend about the castle where the Dawnguard are reforming and the map then updates with a new location you have to explore.
Map mechanics I would like to see:
1) A shared marker for party memebers, so that anyone can mark a spot they would like to go.
2) If Nodes are at war, citizens of the warring nodes can see a territory line of both theirs and the enemy node so that they can see where they are most likely to see enemy players or NPCs
3) Drawing paths on the map that are also shared between your party. This to either share a safe route your group has decided on, or to show a directive for which quests you are looking to do in what order.
The reasons can be endless,
1) It can give home field advantage to a defending guild in a region as far as people coming in to raid caravans.
2) It will lead to that new game feeling often. Imagine playing in a zone often, and your friend who was gone for a few weeks gets on and your like oh yea lets go to that new village, and you start leading them down a previously dead end road. For them they will think you are taking them the wrong way and will be amazed as they see the terrain and path open up on their map.
3,4,5.....) many many more reasons
I think exploring the map is good as the overall terrain will not change often, and it can be pseudo greyed out like in the old age of empires PC games from the 90s, and as you go back it refreshes itself on your own map.
I think being a part of a guild or alliance that controls a metro area, the map should remain updated in all territories related to / controlled by you.
Everything else should be fogged up once you log out for the day.
I'd like to disagree with this.
Just because there are people who wish to not play the game the intended way that doesn't mean cool features shouldn't be in the game.
I think this sort of reasoning you are going for strangles innovation and creativity.
There will always be people who for example make and read guides. They don't want to experiment, they don't want to find out things on their own, yet the team does not focus on these people when they design their class system.
If you always look at things through the optics of "what is the feature that people might just circumvent" you'd always end up with a barebone game, cause there will be always people who just want to play the game their way.
Not only that 3rd party websites will have a tough time following the maps of every server. If it's done at a library as you suggest then info is specifically accurate to your own server
Mapping is important, the topography of a region can be complex, with certain elements that must be considered, such as whether or not a part of the area begins to rise in elevation or decline, letting the person know where to exactly head in order to progress onward.
One thing we know for certain is that flying mounts are going to be quite rare to obtain. Not everyone is going to be able to have access to this feature right away, so players are going to need good indication on pathways throughout Verra, especially in mountainous regions or regions which lack flatlands or fields.
Being that terrain will change based on the development of nodes, maps will need updating. Having to constantly re-discover your map would be a daunting feature, but not impossible. Perhaps if a player has already discovered an entire zone's map, should the node change and their map become reset, their circumference of map discovery should increase in size since they're familiar with the zone demographic already.
Example: First time entering map, you can discover 100 feet ahead of you in every direction when exploring, like a giant, walking 100ft circumference.
Then the zone's node updates, and the map gets reset, but now the player has 150 feet circumference to discover the map, or 200+. Makes things still a challenge, but uses the player's experience in their favor.
Each node that the player has discovered the map on should be saved to their account in case the zone ever retracts or pushes toward a different, already obtained node level, and it should be -account bound-.
Just a thought
I think a good way to do this would be having a collaboration between communities (ie. nodes, guilds, allying nodes etc.) instead of a solely individual map that must be updated by you and only you. On top of this, I think having decaying of some aspects of the map as well as the preservation of others could be a good way to keep exploration and mystery in the game.
I think having an individual map that needs updating JUST on your own would be way too big of a task for just one player considering how vast Verra is. I think a good solution to this would be allowing collaborating with your guild or node or family (or all of them combined), as well as potentially allying guilds or other communities to have one collaborative map for those involved in the sharing of their map knowledge. Each individual players exploration would remove the fog of war on their own map in real time and update it on everything around them, and this could be contributed to the overall combined map of the previously mentioned parties.
In terms of how they would contribute to the collaborative map as well as update their own map with everyone elses information, that could be done in many different ways depending on how realistic or easy you want to make it. You may need to manually visit a node or castle or freehold that is apart of the collaborative map to give your individual map information and also to fully update your individual map on the latest information from everyone else who is participating, and everyone else would need to do the same. This way I think you could have a fun system where you need to interact with others or your communities in some way to share your own map knowledge and update your own map, and everyone will be helping each other out in exploring and sharing information. With this method, you could also confer with an individual or group out in the world and share your map information just between yourselves if you're too far away from a contributing node or castle etc. and that way you would be able to update your map by combining just your information and theirs, rather than the information from the community as a whole, until you can get back to a node and fully update it again.
Perhaps there would be requirements in order to have more than just your node's collaborative map knowledge. For example, higher node progression could unlock map collaboration with allying nodes. Another example, the skill of the scribes in your guild could unlock map collaboration with allying guilds, or nodes etc. In general think adding greater progression in terms of who you can share map knowledge with that ties in with the scribing profession or node progression could be a fun mechanic and also make scribing very rewarding.
If manual updating by going to a node or community area is too much of a hassle then you could also just make everyone's maps update in realm time, or have progression that allows for that sort of thing.
The other thing I think could be played with when it comes to maps is decaying of map information, and the preserving of other map information. If you or people who are participating in the combined map knowledge haven't visited an area for a while, the information on the points of interests, buildings, creature locations or warnings etc could decay, however the general landscape could remain on your map as that is less likely to have drastically changed. Perhaps the old information could be slightly more opaque on your map to signify that is it potentially outdated, rather than a fog of war just covering it back up entirely again. This way you can still see the map and and you could still try and plan routes using the outdated map, however you might end up finding out when you get there that the points of interest are vastly different, perhaps a fully progressed node is now in the middle of the valley you were going to visit. Doing something like this would mean that the areas closer to your node or guilds location etc would usually be pretty updated most of the time, however places on the other side of the map that aren't visited as frequently would remain mysterious and unknown, and you would only know what has been going on over there based on the latest knowledge provided by your communities until it is visited again.
To summarise, I think a manually updating and collaborative map that can become outdated over time could be a really fun and interesting addition to make the world continue to feel like a mystery and to preserve the aspect of exploration in the game as well as provide another benefit to encourage collaboration and alliances between different communities. I think that the way it is done could vary quite a lot and if it isn't made too difficult to keep updated to a reasonable extent then it would be a positive thing. I do agree with some people that if it is not done in a way that still remains enjoyable rather than becoming an obstacle, then it could definitely be a negative thing, so if the map is made simple and easy just like many other MMOs then I wouldn't be upset by it, but I definitely think there is a lot of potential for a much more intricate system if it is done right.
I think it'd be cool to have different animals with new roaming patterns so that you're not just farming the same areas. Maybe there's outposts between cities where players can pay a small fee to set up a limited time booth to sell goods. I'm definitely the type of player that wants a reason to explore areas again to see what's new.
I was going to post exactly this. It would also have the advantage of giving everyone a reason to visit their local scientific node once in a while.
I think the library becomes available once the node reaches village stage, so I imagine every region is likely to have one even if the local city or metropolis is a different type of node.
Knowing something changed would be really bad i think. You just explore everything one time and then you'll know a new dungeon or event has started somewhere because you don't see it on the map anymore.
When something new appears it should start with only some people finding out about it (maybe during a gathering run or a noob who's still exploring a low level area) and they get to decide how they want to act upon that knowledge. This creates more story and interaction.
All players will be able to purchase or receive a basic map of the world/region from an npc. That map will have very little detail, like only showing the major landmasses and terrain like mountains and large rivers as well as level 5/6 nodes.
Cartographers will be able to create and sell more detailed maps of an area depending on their skill and the time they spend creating it. They will level up their cartography skill by exploring the world and creating maps. As they level up this skill, some of the details that can be seen one their maps would be:
Level 1: more geographic features like streams and lvl 3 and 4 nodes.
Level 2: level 1 and 2 nodes and all geographic features
Level 3: the locations of dungeons, world bosses, common resources, etc.
Level 4: uncommon/rare resource locations, animal herds, etc.
Cartographers will have a time sink when creating a map relative to the size of the area the map contains. Similar to how the best crafting is done in Science Metropolis’s and the best processing is done in freeholds, the best cartography should be done either on high level ships, in high level nodes that contain docks/harbors, or possibly in freeholds with a geographic boost if they are near a river/ocean.
When a player opens their map to a region they have purchased a map for, it should show all the details that the map level reveals as well as when they most recently got a map for that region. Since Ashes features an ever-changing environment it will be possible for some map details to be out of date so players will need to purchase a more up to date map.
To prevent cartographers from being able to level up their skill and just passively produce high level maps forever, they will need to continue to explore the areas they want on a map before they can create it.
I really like your last point. Needing a map marker to have for example a dungeon entrance become visible would prevent the use of third party tools!! And maybe rogues, scouts or cartographers are the only ones able to find these hidden entrances without having the map marker.
If Steven has said several times that Verra is flat, why the constant use of globes?
While It would be nice for the zones to shift with changing ZOI, I don't think it needs to be more than a simple shifting overlay. Like a tab on the map, you can check to see the ZOI map. Trying to add and remove PoI every time a cave freezes or a mine opens and so on, is a nice thought but entirely too much work for what it's worth. That's also one more thing to data mine, making it easier to farm. Stop adding new things and finish the core product, after five years you don't have 25% off the game built.
Events will probably be scaled while taking the amount of participants into consideration. If 5 cities go to an event near 1 city (because they notice it on their map) that only needed 40 people to clear it would be kinda pointless. But if only the closest city notices the event, they can first try it themselves and maybe if they don't have enough power or are missing something else they can ask allied cities for help.
I agree with this, most people would use a 3rd party tool as soon as someone made one to work around a cartography system. Especially because it would put you at a competitive advantage against other players. Someone could even make a website where you'd have to pay to see their maps and spend their time galloping around as many servers as they could every day for map updates. Multiboxing might make it pretty efficient, you could do 10+ servers at once with a good rig and without botting.
I think a fog of war system like the ones in RTS games (Warcraft, Company of Heroes) would work really well. If you are not familiar with such mechanics, basically the map only updates automatically for your own faction's territory or allies. Everything else has to be explored or re-explored in order to see new structures and enemies. So essentially that would translate in Ashes to Nodes you are a citizen of, allied with, or a Guild/Alliance you are apart of. I also like the idea of being able to buy/sell maps or share with others what you have discovered. This would add an interesting dynamic to the economy and give players who maybe don't want to explore as much a way to update their world map.
This is important for a number of reasons:
1. It creates a need for explorers/scouts to stay updated on neutral/enemy node's positions or advancement, resources and dynamic events. This also flows perfectly with the plans for libraries because such information could then be stored there and provide updates for your allies.
2. Creates a sense of wonder for the player as they explore and discover the world opposed to just pulling up the map and instantly seeing any point of interest they want.
3. Creates a challenge for nodes/alliances to stay updated on the world and communicate amongst themselves, something that has diminished in MMOs these days.
4. Provides another benefit to being apart of a group and using teamwork.
MMO players hate tedious crap, but will still do it if it provides benefits, so make it beneficial somehow someway (even if you're max level).
I think the more content you can give people the happier they'll be, because they can pick and choose everyday which content to do. No one HAS to do ALL the content AoC provides, but give them an option to re-explore lands they've already explored or they won't care what is new in that area and won't explore it. The downside to that would be people not seeing when nodes level up until they get to that node, which in turn prevents more people from visiting that node. Which can lead to a different area getting their money instead of the node near them that leveled up. The plus side is that node can look to wage war on the higher level node. So, this question is actually a game changing question for people who want to be mayors of nodes/guilds that run the node. Also, it affects everyone else building up both nodes then produces a war for the pvpers. Therefore, you should do whichever is better for the game itself and not just what people want.
It might be better to start off with having to re-explore areas and if it isn't producing the content as intended then go to an updatable map. If you start with an updatable map, then switch it to people having to re-explore areas it will make everyone upset (even if there are benefits) because they'll be used to having an updated map at all times. These are my thoughts of what I would like to see, but also keep in mind (not only to the devs, but the players) that every little decision will have an effect on the game in some other way/shape/form. So what you may be used to/like/prefer may not be beneficial for the games health as a whole. We all want Ashes of Creation to rise like a phoenix, but not burn to ashes.
I think smth like this would allow people to have beneficial fun exploring the whole world once and then have reason to explore some of the parts again in the future, if they want to keep up-to-date info on it.
Ideally node citizenship would allow you to update your map through some node building, where any connections your node has would show up on your map. This would give you the most recent info on other nodes building up and maybe some big dungeons opening up around them. Would be a great way to learn what has changed in the game if you haven't played for a while.
give a fog of war, make the cartographer's job, push to the exploration.
I want the events and addons to change the map regularly, forcing us to constantly discover.
I don't want to play lineage 2 or war craft 2.
i want intrepid to be creative!!!