Hmmm. I'm a little against certain things changing. As a player i tend to grow liking of areas and certain places in the games i play. I wouldn't want areas of the map to keep changing around and look completely different every other month.
I mean, you make memories in-game at certain spots of the map. I'd hate for those to change.
Now, i don't mind if there is a major world event happening once a year or so that may/may not affect how the map look TEMPORARILY. Ex: An area becomes completely destroyed, but it'll take NPC's X amount of months to rebuilt it, maybe even make it better.
Classic world map, the fact we cannot teleport will make it very hard to keep the map updated and so we would miss a lot of world event informations
A classic map could be "discovered" through the leveling process but I would say for the end game players looking for content
opening the world map and seeing an event icon pop up then head towards it would be more enjoyable than visiting the world every once in a while for as many years as we plan on playing the game
Not being able to see events on the other side of the world that we cannot join anyway due to travel time wouldn't feel like a problem, but missing out reachable events would be annoying.
Making the world map too hard to update or acquire would be a bad thing as probably people will come out with ways to show the live world map on a webpage giving them a big advantage over players that will want to play the game how its supposed to be played.
I think that a changing map would be nice to keep the world alive whilst also keeping explorers busy scouting the map, which would go hand in hand with scouting, marking then selling maps to other players. So definitely a more ever-changing dynamic map would be better.
I would definitely prefer something more innovative in general but it's hard to say without a more specific example. If Steven had a system in mind with a high degree of confidence that didn't require too much playtime to constantly update, then it could be interesting?
For example, when a node upgrades to a city then that should automatically update on my map [since it's a global announcement], but maybe I need to visit that node's city hall in particular to find out which guilds are patrons, who the mayor is, what facilities have been added, and any information regarding NPCs, quests, and organizations.
An added layer to this could be if you visit a science node then it will provide information on the surrounding nodes without having to visit them individually. So, if you travelled across regions then you might visit that science node first as soon as you arrive in order to get the most up to date regional knowledge. The science node might charge a fee or tax for this information and players might fulfill quests in the science node to keep it well informed.
A system where you pay a small sum to an NPC for map updates- perhaps region based- would be a neat feature.
I'm not a fan of the map auto-updating. Its too easy and 'automated systems engaged'y.
In Asheron's Call you would give coins to Town Crier NPCs and they would give you news and local quest hints.
Pros
Requires a little effort (each town should have a Crier)
Is interactive
Supports immersion
Had a similar thought, however in order for the town NPC map to be sold, it must first have inventory that players that have scouted the landscape can sell partial maps of
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akabearMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
I would rather see a hybrid of traditional and innovative maps .
Perhaps a static map for the nodal area one has chosen to reside and some dymanics to selective other areas
Thoughts, unresolved, I would like to see
a) a degree of fog that disappears when areas discovered are reflected in the maps which also fades away after several weeks to months of not returning to those areas.
b) regional / partial maps that scouts only can produce and sell back to the town for re-sale from NPC to players
c) treasure / regional resource maps - again that can be discovered by gatherers and sold back to the NPC in their node and then purchased by nodal citizens.
d) scientific - quests or costs to place fogs of war over areas to leave limited to no visibility to players outside a node citizenship
e) landscape changes in some areas - deformation over time, tree deforesting growing back slowly, islands rise from the depths. just some dynamic to the overall maps that might keep players exploring and finding new things
So...
I'm horrendous at map reading. My sense of direction is terrible too. It's awful.
A friend of mine once said watching my character on a minimap was like a game in itself. They would try to work out what the heck was going on in my mind and bet if I would get to the end destination.
One of my favourite memories has been with a hero who can read maps coming to save me. I once got lost in a desert...for an embarrassingly long time. I was too ashamed to call for help but after going delirious from the heat... desperate to see water and green grass...I had to ask a friend who had worked tirelessly to unfog the map to this deadly desert to come save me. This hero came to find me - even though I could not describe where I was QQ - and guided me to safety at the nearest town. We cried and laughted a lot over this journey.
I think innovative maps can help create memorable adventures if done right ^^
Unfortunately we are in the information age, people will look for information outside the game if they don't find it inside the game, inevitably situation.
Important is to make people not leave the game to look information about map, giving them something and allowing them to update.
Regions and names could be easily identified on the map.
Points of interest could be added automatically when passing by and removed if it changes.
Locations (Materials), could be bookmarked by the player and shared or traded (as in EVE Online)
Information about the region, could be registered and saved in personal map with visiting the main area, needing to visit again to update.
I would rather see a hybrid of traditional and innovative maps .
Perhaps a static map for the nodal area one has chosen to reside and some dymanics to selective other areas
Thoughts, unresolved, I would like to see
a) a degree of fog that disappears when areas discovered are reflected in the maps which also fades away after several weeks to months of not returning to those areas.
The first point sounds like a pretty cool idea, when I read it I thought of an area of your map that you explored or unlocked recently being very clear to see. And then as time goes on and you move away from that area and don't revisit it gets darker and darker with fog (uncertainty). It never truly blacks out so you still know topography of the land and can see any indicators that where there when you last visited, but you may not know how the nodes have changed, what other structures are new in the area, or if a once open mountain pass is now blocked due to winter snow storms. You can gauge how accurate your map of an area is by the shade of the overlay, the darker it is the more uncertain you are that your map is accurate to the actual area.
If my map didn't at least show me basic topography and at least some information (full Fog of war) I would just be playing with a full map on my second monitor breaking immersion.
Hmmm, where do we even start with this?
Without a map skill you are lost between "Down Yonder and Round the Bend a spell".
Who would you want to make your map, Da Vinci or Vespucci? Price would definitely matter.
If it was a Trade skill would each region, "Node" have different levels of detail in the maps of say the Apprentice VS The Master Craftsman?
Lets not forget the Sea Charts of Legend, without these most of us would still believe the Earth is Flat.
If Im going to Hunt for the best Ore in a region I'm seeking out the Miners, Best Leather or Skins Hunters, and Yada Yada Yada. If you already planned it just do it we are going to play anyway.. You've already got us hooked!!
I feel traditional ones are kinda boring to me. There's so much potential in getting this right.
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Jell0primeMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
100% behind a fog of war system. Static worlds are one of the biggest turn-offs for those with adventurous spirits. Embrace the changes so that we can find them.
The concept of being able to share/sell maps is very intriguing and tying it to a craft would be incredibly novel.
"I never ever do anything, for goodness’ sake. Everything I do, is for the sake of evil." -Skeletor
what i want to see is ragnarok online type of bosses. instead of the boss spawning every time at the same spot, the boss would spawn in any part of the boss map and it would move around the area as well
The world changing is fine, people not knowing about the changes is not. So either A. Put a marker on the map that designates "a change has occurred here". or B. Just update the map.
I'd rather have a fog of warred out map and once explored updates this area on your map. Once something changes it'll return back to a veiled state. This then can be updated by someone using the scribe skill and making you a map of the area. This map can be a plain area update, but could also be a map that includes a bunch of poi's. Or you can go re-exploring and mark them all yourself instead.
Love the idea of having a fog-of-war effect on the map, and when something has changed in that certain area of the map, there should be something there to let players know that it has changed. Also a skill tree for making maps, or some sort of class system, seems like a good idea too, for player interaction and just making Vera seem more alive.
Love the work you do intrepid, keep it up!
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CatSnievansMember, Phoenix Initiative, Royalty, Kickstarter, Alpha One
I think it would be really cool to have markers you can place on the map that you can share with others as well. That lets explorers be important and have a reason to go out more than just looking for resources and since the maps can change a lot perhaps the only way to know is to see the changes (like new towns or dungeons)yourself or someone sharing what they know with you to update your own map.
I really like the idea of a changing map. But ONLY if its the result of player decisions/actions. I know if I get into a game that a later expansion either re-wrote or altered anything like map/quests/economy etc, I feel left out for not being there from the beginning. Its like the tick that some of us gamers have with never starting a game midway through a series.
But if the map changes because of player decisions then I would think that the opportunity to experience what others have and you missed could still be possible. Keeping this in mind should mitigate that feeling of missing out. After all, we are trying to build attachment to the game world, and this would add a very dynamic aspect to various game mechanics.
Would be super cool to have a building or city upgrade.....like some sort of weather/climate control effecting either just the city or possibly beyond. But that sounds OP
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vahroMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
edited July 2022
I would be happy to see a slightly different world map. For one, please use the "Fog of War" in the world map. That is, places where you have not yet been, you should not see on the map. On the other hand, events or the like should not be displayed in full detail on the map. For example, if a dragon spawns at a place, there should only be a dragon symbol on the map, nothing more. If a volcano erupts, then adjust the map so that there is an erupting volcano at that location. Please do not show colored circles with x information, something like that just annoys me (best example here is the New World map, way too overloaded with symbols).
Oh and please copy one thing from WoW. When I open the map, my char should also open a map as an emote and look at it. I find something like that just always nice.
Nice topic! I think the standard "explore once, see it forever" is fine in standard MMOs, but this isn't going to be a standard MMO. I think it would be an extra incentive to engage in inter-node communication if you had to keep your map up-to-date.
Maybe there could be a quest inside the node to report back on nodes that they haven't heard from in a while? The further the node, the better the reward? Maybe coming back to your own node from another, in the same session without dying, would update your node's map of the world, and once you're in the node, you can update your own from the current map? I dunno, I'm sure you can think of something more effective. There would have to be a datetime on your specific areas of the map, so that you weren't overwriting someone else's newer area from the opposite side of the world to where you'd been.
And yeah, until you've got/bought/updated your map, you should have a fog, as why would you know where everything in the world was if you've only just stepped through the portal from Sanctus?
More innovative ways of keeping maps up-to-date. "Thumbs-up".
If it was up to me, I wouldn't even implement a map. I've always liked memorizing the layout of a map. Or just a compass and map where you figure out yourself where you are (real explorer style).
P.S. maybe add a progressive style to it if you've killed an amount of creatures, the map updates to a more detailed.
In this case, I would say that simple is best. Once a place is explored, it will stay on the map forever. The only thing that would update on the map after re-exploration are nodes. Other POI's don't need to be on the map, if someone wants to mark some place, they could just use a marker. I think something like cartography would make things a little too complicated.
Here's my ideal for a MMORPG fog of war. I would like the library to be a big part of personal map updates. You visit an area, your personal map updates. But if you want, you can go to a scientific node library building, and update that library to more recent information you've collected. Then, others can go to that library building to update their maps as well. Or maybe you can exchange this kind of update at a tavern with another player.
This is pretty much spot on. I would not want any fog of war to reenter an area I have explored, let it stay the same until I reexplore it myself or if I get new updated information from a library or tavern from people that have shared their maps.
Could even have a tag system when you upload your maps to the library/tavern - Guildies, people in your alliance, friends, public or other tags and only those matching those tags can take part of your shared maps.
Perfect way to start a gaming session would be to enter your local tavern or city, talk to people, update your map and head out and use the information received or try to find new locations yourself.
Here's my ideal for a MMORPG fog of war. I would like the library to be a big part of personal map updates. You visit an area, your personal map updates. But if you want, you can go to a scientific node library building, and update that library to more recent information you've collected. Then, others can go to that library building to update their maps as well. Or maybe you can exchange this kind of update at a tavern with another player.
For example. I go to node "X" and discover it's a level four node on June 14th at 4 pm. I know there are tier 4 minerals there as well, at quality 80%. My map then updates to tell me this information. I then leave that node, and don't visit it for over a month. My map doesn't change in its information, but unbeknownst to me there was a siege there, and it has been demolished. The minerals have also switched over to tier 3 at 60% quality. My map doesn't automatically update, but another player has been to that area recently. They generously update my local scientific node's library, and that map is now updated. Now I go to the library and can update my map for a fee, or for free if I'm a citizen. Player exploration is more important, and there's an element of imperfect information in the game that lends to the enjoyment of resource-gathering exploration. You can gain a bit of renown for updating the library maps as well, and there's a community effort to keep these community maps updated. Maybe it's even an unspoken rule that caravans must update your local maps to trade there.
I think that would be inline with what Steven has previously said he's wanted for a fog of war map system.
This is how I thought it was going to be. I actually didn't even know that this was a mechanic that was still up in the air.
I think that world maps being interactive and i think keeping it up to date is a good idea especially in an ever changing landscape. Perhaps having teleport Locations update maps once the teleport happens?
You must go on adventures to find out where you truly belong. -Sue Fitzmaurice
Comments
I mean, you make memories in-game at certain spots of the map. I'd hate for those to change.
Now, i don't mind if there is a major world event happening once a year or so that may/may not affect how the map look TEMPORARILY. Ex: An area becomes completely destroyed, but it'll take NPC's X amount of months to rebuilt it, maybe even make it better.
EXACTLY THIS
For example, when a node upgrades to a city then that should automatically update on my map [since it's a global announcement], but maybe I need to visit that node's city hall in particular to find out which guilds are patrons, who the mayor is, what facilities have been added, and any information regarding NPCs, quests, and organizations.
An added layer to this could be if you visit a science node then it will provide information on the surrounding nodes without having to visit them individually. So, if you travelled across regions then you might visit that science node first as soon as you arrive in order to get the most up to date regional knowledge. The science node might charge a fee or tax for this information and players might fulfill quests in the science node to keep it well informed.
A system where you pay a small sum to an NPC for map updates- perhaps region based- would be a neat feature.
I'm not a fan of the map auto-updating. Its too easy and 'automated systems engaged'y.
In Asheron's Call you would give coins to Town Crier NPCs and they would give you news and local quest hints.
Pros
Had a similar thought, however in order for the town NPC map to be sold, it must first have inventory that players that have scouted the landscape can sell partial maps of
Perhaps a static map for the nodal area one has chosen to reside and some dymanics to selective other areas
Thoughts, unresolved, I would like to see
a) a degree of fog that disappears when areas discovered are reflected in the maps which also fades away after several weeks to months of not returning to those areas.
b) regional / partial maps that scouts only can produce and sell back to the town for re-sale from NPC to players
c) treasure / regional resource maps - again that can be discovered by gatherers and sold back to the NPC in their node and then purchased by nodal citizens.
d) scientific - quests or costs to place fogs of war over areas to leave limited to no visibility to players outside a node citizenship
e) landscape changes in some areas - deformation over time, tree deforesting growing back slowly, islands rise from the depths. just some dynamic to the overall maps that might keep players exploring and finding new things
I'm horrendous at map reading. My sense of direction is terrible too. It's awful.
A friend of mine once said watching my character on a minimap was like a game in itself. They would try to work out what the heck was going on in my mind and bet if I would get to the end destination.
One of my favourite memories has been with a hero who can read maps coming to save me. I once got lost in a desert...for an embarrassingly long time. I was too ashamed to call for help but after going delirious from the heat... desperate to see water and green grass...I had to ask a friend who had worked tirelessly to unfog the map to this deadly desert to come save me. This hero came to find me - even though I could not describe where I was QQ - and guided me to safety at the nearest town. We cried and laughted a lot over this journey.
I think innovative maps can help create memorable adventures if done right ^^
Important is to make people not leave the game to look information about map, giving them something and allowing them to update.
The first point sounds like a pretty cool idea, when I read it I thought of an area of your map that you explored or unlocked recently being very clear to see. And then as time goes on and you move away from that area and don't revisit it gets darker and darker with fog (uncertainty). It never truly blacks out so you still know topography of the land and can see any indicators that where there when you last visited, but you may not know how the nodes have changed, what other structures are new in the area, or if a once open mountain pass is now blocked due to winter snow storms. You can gauge how accurate your map of an area is by the shade of the overlay, the darker it is the more uncertain you are that your map is accurate to the actual area.
If my map didn't at least show me basic topography and at least some information (full Fog of war) I would just be playing with a full map on my second monitor breaking immersion.
Without a map skill you are lost between "Down Yonder and Round the Bend a spell".
Who would you want to make your map, Da Vinci or Vespucci? Price would definitely matter.
If it was a Trade skill would each region, "Node" have different levels of detail in the maps of say the Apprentice VS The Master Craftsman?
Lets not forget the Sea Charts of Legend, without these most of us would still believe the Earth is Flat.
If Im going to Hunt for the best Ore in a region I'm seeking out the Miners, Best Leather or Skins Hunters, and Yada Yada Yada. If you already planned it just do it we are going to play anyway.. You've already got us hooked!!
The concept of being able to share/sell maps is very intriguing and tying it to a craft would be incredibly novel.
Joinaxiom.com
It doesn't need to be a convoluted process.
Love the work you do intrepid, keep it up!
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I would like to see fog of war return after a node has changed level up or down. Perhaps after a major siege event even the whole ZOI goes dark.
Being a citizen of a node should have the benefit of seeing that nodes ZOI.
People being able to update others peoples maps should also be a thing wether for gold or because your just a nice guy.
But if the map changes because of player decisions then I would think that the opportunity to experience what others have and you missed could still be possible. Keeping this in mind should mitigate that feeling of missing out. After all, we are trying to build attachment to the game world, and this would add a very dynamic aspect to various game mechanics.
Would be super cool to have a building or city upgrade.....like some sort of weather/climate control effecting either just the city or possibly beyond. But that sounds OP
Oh and please copy one thing from WoW. When I open the map, my char should also open a map as an emote and look at it. I find something like that just always nice.
Maybe there could be a quest inside the node to report back on nodes that they haven't heard from in a while? The further the node, the better the reward? Maybe coming back to your own node from another, in the same session without dying, would update your node's map of the world, and once you're in the node, you can update your own from the current map? I dunno, I'm sure you can think of something more effective. There would have to be a datetime on your specific areas of the map, so that you weren't overwriting someone else's newer area from the opposite side of the world to where you'd been.
And yeah, until you've got/bought/updated your map, you should have a fog, as why would you know where everything in the world was if you've only just stepped through the portal from Sanctus?
If it was up to me, I wouldn't even implement a map. I've always liked memorizing the layout of a map. Or just a compass and map where you figure out yourself where you are (real explorer style).
P.S. maybe add a progressive style to it if you've killed an amount of creatures, the map updates to a more detailed.
It would be good to be able to mark/annotate/note the map. There's not usually enough interaction with the map, in most games.
Needless to say, updating/refreshing your map with the current state shouldn't remove your annotations.
This is pretty much spot on. I would not want any fog of war to reenter an area I have explored, let it stay the same until I reexplore it myself or if I get new updated information from a library or tavern from people that have shared their maps.
Could even have a tag system when you upload your maps to the library/tavern - Guildies, people in your alliance, friends, public or other tags and only those matching those tags can take part of your shared maps.
Perfect way to start a gaming session would be to enter your local tavern or city, talk to people, update your map and head out and use the information received or try to find new locations yourself.
This is how I thought it was going to be. I actually didn't even know that this was a mechanic that was still up in the air.
Cami Shami