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PvP with skins an advantage?

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Comments

  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    In a high fantasy, high magic setting - illusions are common place.
    If you try to head-canon that Ashes is a low magic setting, yeah, your immersion will be easily broken.
    Garish outfits don't break immersion - it's just super-ugly.
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack, Alpha Two
    Daggial wrote: »
    Watching a full armored fighter charging at you in their elegant cloth dress costume is just as immersion breaking as the "clown walking down the street".
    This is the implication I do not like.

    However, I understand it.

    As to where the player agency is - it is with the players buying cosmetics.

    Player agency can be looked at as player freedom. As with most forms of freedom, when you hand people one type of freedom, you are taking a different freedom away from them.
  • ElderElder Member, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    edited July 2022
    NiKr wrote: »
    Elder wrote: »
    Sure, but I don't see why knowing that information for all 40 players at once would be useful.
    It's about picking out high value targets in that 40-player crowd. If I see a 40-man raid approaching our boss farm I know there's at least 5 healers there. Considering that Ashes lets you wear any type of gear, I'd prefer to know which of those healers I should attack first, and the gear would tell me that. If I'm a ranger I might want to attack a dude in robes or light gear, if I'm a mage - a heavy dude, if I'm a rogue - robe/light would most likely be the priority.

    But if all I see is just dudes wearing the same costume and I have to click on each healer to know their gear type - my dps output and pvp value would diminish. Some people might say "that's a feature that adds mystery to the fight" and I'd say that mysterious pvp is not fun. I'd rather have both sides knowing who to kill first and then use your skill lvl to win that situation than everyone running around like headless chickens in hopes of outdpsing their opponent or just getting more lucky on their first strike.

    If that's your preference I won't argue it. I definitely understand the benefit that your example proposes. If I'm not mistaken you're hoping to be able to focus the backline during confusing PvP encounters.

    I'm sure that you'll be able to identify specific archetypes amongst a group with relative ease. I'm just not certain if the appearance of their equipment will play a substantial role in identifying their capabilities.

    The appearance of equipment is proposed to be customizable through crafting and isn't inherently tied to the equipments stat distribution as far as I know.

    All gear will be able to be assigned any stat.
    Crafters will be able to assign different skills/abilities on gear.

    I'm obviously not entirely certain but it's plausible that a mage wearing crafted plate may be entirely or nearly as effective as a mage wearing the equivalent tier of non-crafted cloth.
    Which is the greater folly, summoning the demon or expecting gratitude from it?
  • LudulluLudullu Member, Alpha Two
    Elder wrote: »
    I'm obviously not entirely certain but it's plausible that a mage wearing crafted plate may be entirely or nearly as effective as a mage wearing the equivalent tier of non-crafted cloth.
    But my whole point was that if I'm a ranger, I'd rather shoot someone in robe/light armor because there's a much higher chance that their def stat is lower than someone's who's wearing plate. And if a costume/cosmetic can cover up that gear type, I'd have a harder time picking out a high value target.

    But yes, it's mainly just a preference that stems from L2's gear system which I liked a lot, but I'll deal with it if Ashes ends up being very secretive about its gear presentation (clicking a dude in a huge crowd just to know his gear type is still really secretive to me).
  • ElderElder Member, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    NiKr wrote: »
    Elder wrote: »
    I'm obviously not entirely certain but it's plausible that a mage wearing crafted plate may be entirely or nearly as effective as a mage wearing the equivalent tier of non-crafted cloth.
    But my whole point was that if I'm a ranger, I'd rather shoot someone in robe/light armor because there's a much higher chance that their def stat is lower than someone's who's wearing plate. And if a costume/cosmetic can cover up that gear type, I'd have a harder time picking out a high value target.

    But yes, it's mainly just a preference that stems from L2's gear system which I liked a lot, but I'll deal with it if Ashes ends up being very secretive about its gear presentation (clicking a dude in a huge crowd just to know his gear type is still really secretive to me).

    I don't think you understood my point entirely. It may be possible that crafted cloth gear could provide just as much or nearly as much defence as plate, via customization during the crafting process.

    Personally I wouldn't like this for the game, but reading through the wiki it seemed quite plausible.
    Which is the greater folly, summoning the demon or expecting gratitude from it?
  • LudulluLudullu Member, Alpha Two
    Elder wrote: »
    I don't think you understood my point entirely. It may be possible that crafted cloth gear could provide just as much or nearly as much defence as plate, via customization during the crafting process.

    Personally I wouldn't like this for the game, but reading through the wiki it seemed quite plausible.
    We'll have to see. I sure as hell hope they don't do that cause that kinda defeats the whole purpose of gear type separation.
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    edited July 2022
    NiKr wrote: »
    It's about picking out high value targets in that 40-player crowd. If I see a 40-man raid approaching our boss farm I know there's at least 5 healers there. Considering that Ashes lets you wear any type of gear, I'd prefer to know which of those healers I should attack first, and the gear would tell me that. If I'm a ranger I might want to attack a dude in robes or light gear, if I'm a mage - a heavy dude, if I'm a rogue - robe/light would most likely be the priority.
    In Ashes, the gear won't necessarily tell you which healer you should try to take out first.
    It's not going to tell you which Passive Skills they have their points in or which augments they use or what their tactics are.
    All 5 healers could be wearing a mix of Physical and Magical gear.
    You might want to attack a dude in light gear. You will be able to tell they are mostly wearing light gear even if their transmog is full plate.
  • RanselRansel Member
    DPS meters are one way to assess threats regardless of cosmetic skins.
  • PenguinPaladinPenguinPaladin Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Ransel wrote: »
    DPS meters are one way to assess threats regardless of cosmetic skins.

    Ew.
  • RanselRansel Member
    There might be other ways to accomplish this without DPS meters.

    Maybe just a list of names of the top five highest DPS in close proximity or such.

    The numbers aren't as important as who needs to be targeted.
  • HinotoriHinotori Member, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Daggial wrote: »

    Watching a full armored fighter charging at you in their elegant cloth dress costume is just as immersion breaking as the "clown walking down the street".

    Why does it have to be mandatory? Why can't there be a compromise? Where is player agency in this?

    Get rekt nerd.

    ibomwno5pnhf.gif

    xrds4ytk7z7j.gif
    The world is beautiful whenever you're here.
    And all the emptiness inside disappears.
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    DPS meters typically evaluate after combat, rather than assess threats.
  • LudulluLudullu Member, Alpha Two
    Dygz wrote: »
    All 5 healers could be wearing a mix of Physical and Magical gear.
    You might want to attack a dude in light gear. You will be able to tell they are mostly wearing light gear even if their transmog is full plate.
    That'll come down to my knowledge of the current meta and potential class abilities. But unless the gear icon is always visible it'll be almost impossible to click through all high value targets to figure out who you should attack first.

    Skins/cosmetics remove sight-reading ability which, imo, is crucial for pvp. But we'll have to see how it works out in Ashes.
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    We'll have to see how it works out in Ashes.
    We agree!
  • DaggialDaggial Member, Alpha Two
    Natasha wrote: »
    Daggial wrote: »

    Watching a full armored fighter charging at you in their elegant cloth dress costume is just as immersion breaking as the "clown walking down the street".

    Why does it have to be mandatory? Why can't there be a compromise? Where is player agency in this?

    Get rekt nerd.

    ibomwno5pnhf.gif

    wtf :D
    Monkey Business (EU) is RECRUITING
  • HinotoriHinotori Member, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Daggial wrote: »

    wtf :D

    :p

    https://youtu.be/Z6Ek3h4HTRE
    xrds4ytk7z7j.gif
    The world is beautiful whenever you're here.
    And all the emptiness inside disappears.
  • bloodprophetbloodprophet Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    I fail to see any problems with the system at all.
    Psychological warfare IS a part of PvP.
    Why are so many people against luring your opponents into a trap and crushing them?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oo9buo9Mtos
    Most people never listen. They are just waiting on you to quit making noise so they can.
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack, Alpha Two
    bloodprophet wrote: »
    I fail to see any problems with the system at all.
    Psychological warfare IS a part of PvP.
    Why are so many people against luring your opponents into a trap and crushing them?

    I'm not against this.

    I am against the only way to do this bring the purchase of a skin on the store.

    While there are in game cosmetics, Intrepid seem to ha e distinguished between how store bought in in game earned appearance items work.
  • SnedSned Member, Alpha Two
    Daggial wrote: »
    George_Black wrote: »
    Name one multiplayer videogame that allows to disable skins that people wasted money on.
    Albion Online.
    When you are meeting players u can recognize at a glance what they are wearing.

    Not just that, but you also have multiple options for allies / everyone else.

    Albion-General-settings-Vanity.jpg

    So for example i used to disable skins for everyone else (opponents), to immediately recognize threat, while kept them enabled for my guilmates / party (and have the social interaction that comes with it).

    Fantastic option! Would love to see it in Ashes too.

    Would love to see that too
  • Taleof2CitiesTaleof2Cities Member, Alpha Two
    edited July 2022
    Snerel wrote: »
    Would love to see that too

    I mentioned this in another recent thread, @Snerel, but the main purpose of cosmetics is to, well ... show off your look to other players.

    It might be a cosmetic from a difficult in-game achievement or simply one purchased as a supporter of the fine work the Intrepid Team does.

    Either way, allowing other players to disable cosmetics devalues the pride and accomplishment that players have done to earn their look.

    I think Steven shares the same sentiment ... especially since other threat assessment tools have been confirmed.

    Moreover, full cosmetics have worked fine in other MMOs that were willing to provide other threat assessment tools.
  • Mag7spyMag7spy Member, Alpha Two
    Just be happy there is no pay to win lmao.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DZfqaW5klpg
  • RanselRansel Member
    Hmm, maybe there could be a PvP ability that allows you to temporarily see a players "true form", like True Sight in D&D.
  • WlgenroosjeWlgenroosje Member
    Ransel wrote: »
    Hmm, maybe there could be a PvP ability that allows you to temporarily see a players "true form", like True Sight in D&D.

    This sounds like a great compromise and more immersive also
  • PenguinPaladinPenguinPaladin Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    I think being able to turn off other people cosmetics is reasonable... they should be selling cosmetics for the individual to be satisfied with themselves, not so they can show off to others....
  • MaiWaifuMaiWaifu Member, Braver of Worlds, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    All I want for visual clarity is an option in the settings to enable something like class icon next to name for other players. That way even if they're running a generic skin I can still have a rough idea of what to expect.

    I don't mind not knowing if they're stronger/weaker since it feeds into the risk vs reward. But I think it would be fair if I could at least know what kind of kit I'll be up against.
  • PenguinPaladinPenguinPaladin Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    MaiWaifu wrote: »
    All I want for visual clarity is an option in the settings to enable something like class icon next to name for other players. That way even if they're running a generic skin I can still have a rough idea of what to expect.

    I don't mind not knowing if they're stronger/weaker since it feeds into the risk vs reward. But I think it would be fair if I could at least know what kind of kit I'll be up against.

    You should have a nameplate and emblem in game that clearly shows your "power level and class" so you're taken care of there.
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