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[Player Feedback Request] Updated Ren’Kai Concept Art Shown During July Livestream

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Comments

  • SavicSavic Member
    I don't personally ever play orc type races in anything so I would take my thoughts with that in mind since I do not know what people look for in this race

    I think they look cool personally but from reading comments I can see where they would want to see more of the thicker idea to help keep them looking different from the other non-human races at an easy glance

    Overall I like how unique they feel from looking at the busts
  • TheSturnOneTheSturnOne Member
    edited July 30
    I'm quite partial to the Female's Ears as the more baseline option, distinct from most other races' ear shapes, besides size (which is enough to be sure) the Male's Ears look too much like the Py'Rai and Vek ears to me, though it's far from a serious issue.

    These Orcs are sublime, very evocative thematically, and they fit perfectly as a distinct but related race to the Vek with very powerful identity and badass vibes. Definitely gonna be making a Ren'Kai Alt, but Maining a Vek is my plan, with Tulnar, Nikua, and Py'Rai Alts as well.

    The previous iteration felt like a higher definition but tiny mouthed attempt to one-up WoW's Mag'har Orcs; it had strong badass warrior vibes but didn't seem to have much unique identity; this direction for the Ren'Kai has my full support, they look amazing and I can't wait to see their full size, considering how well the Vek Males and Females mirror eachother's design, I'm so looking forward to some impressive Muscular Badass Warrior Models.
  • NorkoreNorkore Member
    I liked the old concept art much more for the male ren'kai model. The new one looks so fragile; i prefer the broader, thicker look (shoulders, neck, and head all looked better on the old model).

    I like the new ears and eyes, I just hope the character creator will allow me to make my ren'kai male broader overall.
  • XanaraiXanarai Member
    I don't like this one as well as the first one. but that is a GOOD thing. Why because I was considering playing a ren'Kai and I never play orc races in any game, like ever. I think the new direction of renkai is good because they look more like traditional orcs. imo this will resonate with more people even though I didn't think the first one was that bad (except head needed to be larger and maybe some aloe vera lotion to the skin). But overall the new design means now i'm definitely not playing a ren'Kai but that is a good thing. Imo a lot of people like traditional looking races so it is good that you changed the design to look more like a traditional orc.

    Tulnar Forever
  • For my tast a little too much asian vibes and not grimm enough when i think about a brutal orc that can escalte out of no reason... but besides the taste verry well done.
    [Fleo Verum] Carolus Dynamicus - Vaelune - Tank
  • AidanKDAidanKD Member
    I am a little bit torn between the two designs if I am honest, not what I would like to say, although someone did an edit of the image with a more skin-tone colour and it did actually look better. Perhaps it's the actual shade of green being a bit too bright in the concept which is distorting my perception of it.

    I don't mind the new direction, it's definitely different and I am happy with it having its own identity. What I DO want from it though, is:

    - The Renkai I feel need to be showing the most physicality. "Honor. Power. Tranquility." That's their ethos. I want them to be a bit more brutish and primitive compared to the other races. I think ethos wise, they sound like a combination between the WoW Brutish Orcs, and the Tauren who respect the land and earth around them. They seem a little slimmer in this model, again I know we will have SLIDERS but as we can only go on the base model, for comparison the Toe-Nar have really thick necks and shoulders and I want to know if the Renkai are going to be steering away from this or if we can thicken them out a bit.

    - If it's going to be sticking to an east-asian theme, I will say that the hair and overall design really suits. In fact, given their dragonborne links potentially, how cool would it be to have a huge tattoo of a dragon somewhere. I definitely feel a different style of tattoo on the Renkai here. Is it possible that there will be tattoos only available for certain races as they are more thematic for them? That sounds pretty interesting in terms of feeling a connection to your race and its roots.

    It's your creation and I am happy to ride this out and see how the model comes out and some variations in the character creator. If you can retain their physicality in their look, animations and personality then I am all for it.
  • keep the scales, more brutish/big in size and make them look more angry while keeping all the asian feauters and it would be perfect
    ykwk7qwgw5os.jpg
  • T ElfT Elf Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    Stand alone they look great, but to me the Ren`Kai, Vek, and Elves look too much alike especially if viewed from a distance. The ears all look the same; the noses are similar, even the facial structures; what sets them apart are skin color.

    I like the asian influence and am hoping for asian type hairstyles.
    eZC6mjP.gif
    Formerly T-Elf

  • maouwmaouw Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    I'm concerned this design direction is heading toward paradox:
    • Asian aesthetics generally lean away from heavy musculature.
    • The Ren'kai are meatier than the Vek.

    This is particularly concerning because asian aesthetics lean much more heavily toward concepts of fragility, tenderness and delicateness - which doesn't gel well with the theme of brute force.
    Here's a moodboard to illustrate my point:
    0dos6sh6636i.png

    There are exceptions, like the classical samurai outfit is pretty chonky and so are Thai ogres, but the only way I see this concept working out long term is if you draw heavily from mongolian culture (which is more like Russia meets China - which is where Mongolia is). The asian mindset is rarely about brute force and brute force is not a concept that appeals to asians in general.
    This was a huge thing for martial arts - the west had big wrestlers and heavy boxers, the east had speed and agility. (Sumo wrestling aside)
    If you take a look at "Kings of Glory" (the Chinese rip-off of League of Legends) the top rated male heros fall into 2 categories: boyish or long-flowy-hair (e.g. Male Hero Appearance Ranking)

    To sum up - please re-assess the direction of Ren'Kais because I don't think you'll be able to find an audience who resonates with the fantasy of this race.
    I wish I were deep and tragic
  • LinikerLiniker Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    maouw wrote: »
    I'm concerned this design direction is heading toward paradox:
    • Asian aesthetics generally lean away from heavy musculature.
    • The Ren'kai are meatier than the Vek.

    This is particularly concerning because asian aesthetics lean much more heavily toward concepts of fragility, tenderness and delicateness - which doesn't gel well with the theme of brute force.
    Here's a moodboard to illustrate my point:
    0dos6sh6636i.png

    There are exceptions, like the classical samurai outfit is pretty chonky and so are Thai ogres, but the only way I see this concept working out long term is if you draw heavily from mongolian culture (which is more like Russia meets China - which is where Mongolia is). The asian mindset is rarely about brute force and brute force is not a concept that appeals to asians in general.
    This was a huge thing for martial arts - the west had big wrestlers and heavy boxers, the east had speed and agility. (Sumo wrestling aside)
    If you take a look at "Kings of Glory" (the Chinese rip-off of League of Legends) the top rated male heros fall into 2 categories: boyish or long-flowy-hair (e.g. Male Hero Appearance Ranking)

    To sum up - please re-assess the direction of Ren'Kais because I don't think you'll be able to find an audience who resonates with the fantasy of this race.

    I don't understand your concern and everyone else saying they won't look strong/beefy just because of the FACE concept art..... did everyone just forget about the Character Creator??

    have a look at these ones

    wm6ug0n8wsq4.png

    8leacuy9fzns.png


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  • GilikothGilikoth Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    edited July 30
    I don't mind the change in direction but I need to see the full model. The faces look gaunter and thinner. When I think Orcs I think monstrous and intimidating and that new Tulnar Gorilla dude seems like he's now sitting at the top of this spot.

    I would love to see the Orcs be on par with the Tulnar in the intimidation department or I may be jumping ship and I have literally quit games because they didn't have Orcs and I got tired of the monstrous race stand-ins they had lol

    The female looks great because I think games tend to make the female orcs far too ugly compared to other races but I think the male needs to have his ugly factor cranked up a bit. Larger jaw and tusks and idk I just can't put my finger on it but they look more like frail hobgoblins than intimidating Orcs.


    Below are morphed images but something like this would be great, a thicker neck, larger less angled head, smaller eyes. Basically what was shown but crank the thickness to triple c thiccc! lol

    4juw81w78t00.jpeg
    xuxggog7nbwf.jpeg

  • BCGBCG Member, Intrepid Pack
    Honestly, the new direction for the Orcs is a big No for me and I do not understand what's wrong with the old look. There isn't much you need to change when it comes to Orcs, Elves, and Dwarfs to make them feel different. The old design with the scales looked way more intimidating to me than the new model, the new model looks more like a Yakuza Goblin from some upcoming Anime.

    I know a lot of fans of eastern stuff will claim, now the orcs have identity and so on. But if that is the case you also have to change the Kaelar and Dünir when it comes to their looks, In my Opinion, Fantasy races get their Identity from their culture represented within the game, not their Individual race look.

    Tolkin, Warcraft, and Warhammer Orcs have my preferred look when it comes to Orcs in any Fantasy game, and that just might be because of age and childhood, but I can also see a lot of people pass on the new look for the orcs because of the direction it is going. Hope we can still have the old look or make it close to it on release.

    coa2n0n7yyi6.png
  • JustVineJustVine Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Kuraruku wrote: »
    unknown.png?width=790&height=453
    Did a quick mod of the Ren'Kai image

    I believe this helps with the new design. I think the lighter green makes it feel too cartoony perhaps a bit more saturation on the green might help.

    Seeing it like this makes me even more certain they look way more human than 'dragon blooded orc'. Hopefully they can tilt a bit back in the direction they were originally heading.
    Alkali Witch
  • BCGBCG Member, Intrepid Pack
    Now that I look at it, they look like halflings more than orcs.
  • AsgerrAsgerr Member
    I do much prefer the noses for this iteration of the Ren'Kai. They look orc-ish now and not so much overgrown dragon piglet.

    Will the scales remain as a feature of this race?

    I like the Asian feel and inspiration for them. And I trust we can still make them look menacing and fierce, even when the art makes them appear more harmonious and peaceful.

    10/10 looking forward to the new renders
    Sig-ult-2.png
  • I do not understand the comments saying this head concept "lacks the muscularity" of the complete but outdated older model; chances are if you pasted the updated Male Head over the old model's head it would line up with the older model's traps and be just as beefy but with greater identity in facial features; chances are the body will be just as big and badass, maybe they will also have those scaled patterns, but those are skin deep, and the CC has demonstrated that Intrepid can and certainly will give us all a bunch of pattern options to paste across the model when you're making your Orc. The new direction is perfect IMO; they've also said that you'll be able to choose your skin colouration from a palette so people annoyed with the colour of the concept also got me scratching my head.
  • wdepc4uafcyl.png

    There, a very rough splice by an amateur with paint, chances are we see something with a similar body to the outdated model using the concept art as the flavour.
  • Soooo much better. It feels like you actually took my and other's feedback and it's refreshing! I love this race now. The tusks, the nose, the ears, also just the stylization has been considered! You've finally got an art style I can really get behind.
  • KaelinTVKaelinTV Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Have to admit, I'm a bit torn. Considering the Py'rai reveal, Vek, Tulnar, and now Orcs....It's nice to see a general direction for the character art style. I don't mind a stylized style, I dig it, but was hoping for a touch of realism thrown in there as well, a mixture of the two. Which I believe was successful on some of the previous reveals. I love myself some DnD, so seeing a stylized DND character approach in some of the reveals is a success in my book. Really digging the new Elve's, empyrean, Py'rai, etc. But the Ren'Kai just rubs me the wrong way. It's just too cartoony of a look, too soft looking for Orcs, literally has a WoW touch to it which just irks me.

    I'm not one to get offended, honestly, I think most people in life need to take a chill pill and relax. But I literally just see an Asian Orc....facial structure, hair style, accessories, their buildings, it's just all Asian. Don't get me wrong, I love Asian culture (heck, grew up on anime, and find Asian culture/history fascinating), but I believe the touch here was too aggressive.

    Now I wouldn't say scrap the entire thing, but it needs some refinement. Needs a dab of rough and brutish physicality. They just look way too soft. Overall, torn...The older Ren'Kai just seemed weird with the button nose and extra long philtrum. Whereas the current Orc reveal, sacrifices all the characteristics of what makes an Orc and Orc, and fuses them with an aggressive Asian theme. I think there might be a nice compromise in between both.

    Infuse them with some more physicality, some harsher features, not so soft. Soft and delicate seems counter productive for what an Orc stands for, and that's the majority of what I see atm, ESPECIALLY on the female Orc side.

    A bit off and on topic though, now I'm curious where the direction will be heading for the other races. Considering the shift and updated looks, I guess that means all the other races will get a facelift as well? Sad to say, really digged the last Dwarf update, really hit it on the head with the style...Which was more realism...But with this shift, a lot of the older stuff just doesn't fit...Two clashing styles, so would think the majority of all the humans and dwarves/nikua will get an update pass.

    In terms of the stylized approach, I think it fits the game better. Realism doesn't age well when it comes to characters and age, stylized approaches tend better with the test of time. Considering how long Ashes is aiming for, believe it to be the better approach. But I'm just hoping for a touch of realism can be added to the stylized approach, to me that fits the DND vibe perfectly....Some updates hit the nail on the head (Py'Rai, Empyrean), some close (Vek, some models a bit cartoony, others examples better), but the Orc's missed the mark imo.

    It might go as far as to offend some people, honestly, I think todays cancel culture and wokeness is too extreme, but the current orc approach literally just dives into cultural appropriation. I'm not offended, but considering what I see day to day, will definitely be some that are. Based on some of the twitch chats I've been in and chatted with since the livestream, there was a vibe of this present in some discussions, which this thread doesn't seem to portray in terms of ratio....But just wanted to leave that part out there just incase.

    But yea, going off on a tangent. I like the approach of the stylized characters. But the Orc needs some adjustment. I would say making them a bit more rugged and rougher, a slight reduction in the Asian facial structure, so it's not as pronounced. I think that would be enough to make it work. If you would take the current models, give them human ears, remove the orc teeth, natural nose, and give them a human skin tone, you would literally think it's a stylized Asian portrait...Which I think explains the problem, especially considering this is suppose to be an Orc race.

    Looking forward for more context when we get a full body reveal. Same goes for the Tulnar, but that's a different topic.
  • fishcatifishcati Member
    edited July 30
    I like the new direction (especially with the east Asian inspired face shape), and the male looks really good with sharp, striking features that I would expect from a hardened warrior. I can see that face atop a muscle-bound war machine like the Ren'kai

    The female however lacks all of the features I like in the male. She doesn't have that arrow shaped face or powerful eyebrows. Her lips are way too full for a race with tusks, and it just looks bizarre. Her nose is too concave while the male's is more convex, almost as if he's snarling. She looks way too feminine when compared to the male. It's way too much sexual dimorphism imo. In fact I'd say she looks more like the female Vek than the male Ren'kai. It just seems like if she's this huge warrior filled with testosterone she should have the face to match.

    I'm just tired of playing MMOs where I make a big beefy 8ft tall lady with a giant f*** off sword and I have to give her a baby uwu face. It's something that really let me down in ESO and I hope you guys don't make the same mistake.
  • ShoelidShoelid Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    skin tone might be a little bright, but It's hard to tell what really changed IMO because we never got previous iteration's concept headshots. We also don't have much of anything below the neck. We don't know how wide the shoulders are, which would help a lot in framing these heads with the rest of the body.

    If their body is at the same scale as the last iteration, I really like it. However, if the body is much smaller than last time, this head would look too cartoony for me.

    I'm worried about the apparent disappearance of the scales.

    I wouldn't say this is better or worse, just different.
  • ArlysalArlysal Member, Pioneer, Kickstarter
    I also like the direction this is going, so no feedback per se, just a positive comment. The Ren'kai female's teeth looks a bit too big for my liking but naturally that's something that can be adjusted I imagine, but overall looks great. Can't wait to see more progress.
  • GilikothGilikoth Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    From the perspective of my 8-year-old, "I was expecting them to look more scary and tough but they look too cute, especially the man. They need to have a tougher/intimidating look and more muscular-looking faces."
  • TenacielTenaciel Member
    Gilikoth wrote: »
    I don't mind the change in direction but I need to see the full model. The faces look gaunter and thinner. When I think Orcs I think monstrous and intimidating and that new Tulnar Gorilla dude seems like he's now sitting at the top of this spot.

    I would love to see the Orcs be on par with the Tulnar in the intimidation department or I may be jumping ship and I have literally quit games because they didn't have Orcs and I got tired of the monstrous race stand-ins they had lol

    The female looks great because I think games tend to make the female orcs far too ugly compared to other races but I think the male needs to have his ugly factor cranked up a bit. Larger jaw and tusks and idk I just can't put my finger on it but they look more like frail hobgoblins than intimidating Orcs.


    Below are morphed images but something like this would be great, a thicker neck, larger less angled head, smaller eyes. Basically what was shown but crank the thickness to triple c thiccc! lol

    4juw81w78t00.jpeg
    xuxggog7nbwf.jpeg

    Sir! This is exactly what we need in my opinion! Great job, I hope they will move forward to this direction.
  • maouw wrote: »
    I'm concerned this design direction is heading toward paradox:
    • Asian aesthetics generally lean away from heavy musculature.
    • The Ren'kai are meatier than the Vek.

    This is particularly concerning because asian aesthetics lean much more heavily toward concepts of fragility, tenderness and delicateness - which doesn't gel well with the theme of brute force.
    Here's a moodboard to illustrate my point:
    0dos6sh6636i.png

    There are exceptions, like the classical samurai outfit is pretty chonky and so are Thai ogres, but the only way I see this concept working out long term is if you draw heavily from mongolian culture (which is more like Russia meets China - which is where Mongolia is). The asian mindset is rarely about brute force and brute force is not a concept that appeals to asians in general.
    This was a huge thing for martial arts - the west had big wrestlers and heavy boxers, the east had speed and agility. (Sumo wrestling aside)
    If you take a look at "Kings of Glory" (the Chinese rip-off of League of Legends) the top rated male heros fall into 2 categories: boyish or long-flowy-hair (e.g. Male Hero Appearance Ranking)

    To sum up - please re-assess the direction of Ren'Kais because I don't think you'll be able to find an audience who resonates with the fantasy of this race.

    They could lean a little more into the oni appearances too, the brutish ogres would still have Japanese stylized architecture.
  • I feel like those who are concerned over the capacity of Asian aesthetics to conform to the Ren'Kai physique's strength and power, you fail to include the Asian warrior aesthetic, and any huge and imposing person can wear upper class fashion, they just pull it off more spectacularly due to scale. While I realize Ren'Kai are currently more predominantly Japanese in inspiration (of the armour and architecture at least) perhaps other cultural aesthetics might be sick sets as time goes on.

    4jln2bpgdyva.png
    rgcsqpugiot5.png
    7ihnxlj9534i.png
    kp74wdv457yp.png
    i64m6nvfcis8.png
  • keep the scales, more brutish/big in size and make them look more angry while keeping all the asian feauters and it would be perfect

    Overall I think this is the best of both worlds and if there aren't a huge variety of ear options I'd prefer closer to the original design for ears.
    dbijjcb82bfn.png
    Professional Skeptic, Entertainer, and Animal Enthusiast
  • Balrog21Balrog21 Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Not really an orc fan, but I do like the direction you've chosen so far. Can't wait to see the whole models in the character creator and how far you can customize them.
  • maouwmaouw Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Liniker wrote: »
    maouw wrote: »
    I'm concerned this design direction is heading toward paradox:
    • Asian aesthetics generally lean away from heavy musculature.
    • The Ren'kai are meatier than the Vek.

    This is particularly concerning because asian aesthetics lean much more heavily toward concepts of fragility, tenderness and delicateness - which doesn't gel well with the theme of brute force.
    Here's a moodboard to illustrate my point:
    0dos6sh6636i.png

    There are exceptions, like the classical samurai outfit is pretty chonky and so are Thai ogres, but the only way I see this concept working out long term is if you draw heavily from mongolian culture (which is more like Russia meets China - which is where Mongolia is). The asian mindset is rarely about brute force and brute force is not a concept that appeals to asians in general.
    This was a huge thing for martial arts - the west had big wrestlers and heavy boxers, the east had speed and agility. (Sumo wrestling aside)
    If you take a look at "Kings of Glory" (the Chinese rip-off of League of Legends) the top rated male heros fall into 2 categories: boyish or long-flowy-hair (e.g. Male Hero Appearance Ranking)

    To sum up - please re-assess the direction of Ren'Kais because I don't think you'll be able to find an audience who resonates with the fantasy of this race.

    I don't understand your concern and everyone else saying they won't look strong/beefy just because of the FACE concept art..... did everyone just forget about the Character Creator??

    have a look at these ones

    wm6ug0n8wsq4.png

    8leacuy9fzns.png


    Hey Liniker,

    I'm concerned about the heavy asian influence of this race not simply because of "the FACE" but because the face change represents an overcommitment to a cultural influence that, in my opinion, will spell the doom of this race in the long term.

    You can pull in influences from mongolians (like you have done) and oni, but you're setting yourself up for a design that has to discard the vast majority of asian cultural influence - limiting yourself to a niche that doesn't have a strong following.

    The lack of following here stands out because:
    - This is an aesthetic that is NOT AT ALL mainstream to asian tastes
    - The drive for this aesthetic seems to be coming from people who strike me as having a shallow understanding of asian cultures (are you interested in playing this race yourself?)

    My personal interest in this race dropped with this recent change, and I'm giving voice to that - as others have done too.

    I'm not saying this direction is impossible, e.g. Monster Hunter has kindof gone in this direction (but let me tell you MH is not known for the beauty of its armor sets) but is this direction likely to gather a significant audience?
    I wish I were deep and tragic
  • LinikerLiniker Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    maouw wrote: »

    My personal interest in this race dropped with this recent change, and I'm giving voice to that - as others have done too.

    @maouw That's the thing man, it's not a recent change, maybe you just didn't knew about this, but all races in Ashes have a strong IRL cultural influence

    and the Ren'Kai were always supposed to have a strong asian/japanese influence ever since the game was announced, theres assets from 5 years ago that shows that

    oficial-baner2.png
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