If you want to user resources, then I think the way to do it is the following.
You have a certain amount of resources, let's say 5 arrowheads (this decreases and increases depending on level).
Certain instant or charged skills require 1 or more arrowheads to be used.
To generate said arrowheads you need to user either specific skills or achieve a Crit with your basic attack or on your DoTs.
You then expend them back again once your skills are off cooldown.
Basic attacks have no limit on arrows.
This now resembles a rotation that actually works, doesn't gimp the Archetype, limits the otherwise unlimited use of certain skills and has an interesting game loop.
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If you want to user resources, then I think the way to do it is the following.
You have a certain amount of resources, let's say 5 arrowheads (this decreases and increases depending on level).
Certain instant or charged skills require 1 or more arrowheads to be used.
To generate said arrowheads you need to user either specific skills or achieve a Crit with your basic attack or on your DoTs.
You then expend them back again once your skills are off cooldown.
Basic attacks have no limit on arrows.
This now resembles a rotation that actually works, doesn't gimp the Archetype, limits the otherwise unlimited use of certain skills and has an interesting game loop.
I like this. Reminds of a class I played in GW2, I can't remember what it was though, as my time with the game was brief.
Which is the greater folly, summoning the demon or expecting gratitude from it?
Except most of the time the higher in lvl you go the better and more expensive potions you get, so they never really "just become cheap"
.
The same can be said for archery lv up. It will allow better craft better arrows upon lv up
What spam? Archers will just shoot arrows the same way they would with unlimited arrows. Literally nothing changes except for the money requirement. And no, other classes won't magically become better than archers at using the bow if arrows are unlimited. Archers will have weapon skills for bows so they'll always be better at using a bow.
Prevent just hitting same attack button infinitely brainlessly
And again I ask: why have it cost anything if you mean to make the cost nothing? You're adding unnecessary steps to a perfectly fine and working system.
It's not unnecessary. Goes back to my previous point. Helps just spamming attack button infinitely and if your party runs all bow then the archery craft helps everyone stock up on arrows
If you want to user resources, then I think the way to do it is the following.
You have a certain amount of resources, let's say 5 arrowheads (this decreases and increases depending on level).
Certain instant or charged skills require 1 or more arrowheads to be used.
To generate said arrowheads you need to user either specific skills or achieve a Crit with your basic attack or on your DoTs.
You then expend them back again once your skills are off cooldown.
Basic attacks have no limit on arrows.
This now resembles a rotation that actually works, doesn't gimp the Archetype, limits the otherwise unlimited use of certain skills and has an interesting game loop.
Not sure if I get you but your saying the basic arrow attack should be infinite and the special archery skills cost resource?
If you want to user resources, then I think the way to do it is the following.
You have a certain amount of resources, let's say 5 arrowheads (this decreases and increases depending on level).
Certain instant or charged skills require 1 or more arrowheads to be used.
To generate said arrowheads you need to user either specific skills or achieve a Crit with your basic attack or on your DoTs.
You then expend them back again once your skills are off cooldown.
Basic attacks have no limit on arrows.
This now resembles a rotation that actually works, doesn't gimp the Archetype, limits the otherwise unlimited use of certain skills and has an interesting game loop.
Not sure if I get you but your saying the basic arrow attack should be infinite and the special archery skills cost resource?
Correct. Basic attack should not be limited by ammunition in my vision of it.
You generate the class resource by using certain skills or using the basic attack or crits on DoTs. (I don't really have a preference on which one).
And then you expend that class resource on the special skills.
This however will mostly apply to Ranger based classes.
A Fighter using a Bow, may get some augments and skills if he specs into it, but otherwise would be limited to the infinite basic attack (which in his case would deal considerably less damage than his melee weapon). After all the core skills of the fighter will be melee.
Having a bow for any other melee classes serves mostly for kiting, or keeping uptime when the monster or boss uses a close range AoE.
If you want to user resources, then I think the way to do it is the following.
You have a certain amount of resources, let's say 5 arrowheads (this decreases and increases depending on level).
Certain instant or charged skills require 1 or more arrowheads to be used.
To generate said arrowheads you need to user either specific skills or achieve a Crit with your basic attack or on your DoTs.
You then expend them back again once your skills are off cooldown.
Basic attacks have no limit on arrows.
This now resembles a rotation that actually works, doesn't gimp the Archetype, limits the otherwise unlimited use of certain skills and has an interesting game loop.
Not sure if I get you but your saying the basic arrow attack should be infinite and the special archery skills cost resource?
Correct. Basic attack should not be limited by ammunition in my vision of it.
You generate the class resource by using certain skills or using the basic attack or crits on DoTs. (I don't really have a preference on which one).
And then you expend that class resource on the special skills.
This however will mostly apply to Ranger based classes.
A Fighter using a Bow, may get some augments and skills if he specs into it, but otherwise would be limited to the infinite basic attack (which in his case would deal considerably less damage than his melee weapon). This serves mostly for kiting, or keeping uptime when the monster or boss uses a close range AoE.
That's OK I guess. Gives a different take with some consequences on attack Guage usage. Feels weird but at least different. What game was that from?
Prevent just hitting same attack button infinitely brainlessly
Again, you'll be shooting brainlessly either way. It's just that in your suggestion archers will have to stock up on shitton of arrows before going out farming. And that shitton will cost a lot of money, which will make archers the less preferred class.
It's not unnecessary. Goes back to my previous point. Helps just spamming attack button infinitely and if your party runs all bow then the archery craft helps everyone stock up on arrows
You'll never be just attacking infinitely. Either your enemy's hp runs out or yours does. And you'll have enough arrows to last you several hours of farming during each farm session. And in order to have them you'll spend money, while no other class would do the same.
Your suggestion changes nothing, but makes archers' life harder for no good reason.
If you want to user resources, then I think the way to do it is the following.
You have a certain amount of resources, let's say 5 arrowheads (this decreases and increases depending on level).
Certain instant or charged skills require 1 or more arrowheads to be used.
To generate said arrowheads you need to user either specific skills or achieve a Crit with your basic attack or on your DoTs.
You then expend them back again once your skills are off cooldown.
Basic attacks have no limit on arrows.
This now resembles a rotation that actually works, doesn't gimp the Archetype, limits the otherwise unlimited use of certain skills and has an interesting game loop.
Not sure if I get you but your saying the basic arrow attack should be infinite and the special archery skills cost resource?
Correct. Basic attack should not be limited by ammunition in my vision of it.
You generate the class resource by using certain skills or using the basic attack or crits on DoTs. (I don't really have a preference on which one).
And then you expend that class resource on the special skills.
This however will mostly apply to Ranger based classes.
A Fighter using a Bow, may get some augments and skills if he specs into it, but otherwise would be limited to the infinite basic attack (which in his case would deal considerably less damage than his melee weapon). This serves mostly for kiting, or keeping uptime when the monster or boss uses a close range AoE.
That's OK I guess. Gives a different take with some consequences on attack Guage usage. Feels weird but at least different. What game was that from?
I'm not sure it fits any one game in particular, but there are classes in FFXIV that operate on a similar principle.
For instance, the Bard, which is the Archer class in the game, has 3 different songs. Each songs has its own effects. In one of them, you get 3 slots of a resource that fill up whenever your applied DoTs deal Crit damage. You can expend it using the associated skill at any point (using 1, 2 or 3 of that resource). But the more you have, the more damage you deal.
WoW also has stuff like this. I think for instance Warlock and Paladins generate resources with certain skills or attacks, and then you expend them for specific skills which require X amount of them.
Limitation helps avoid spam and non archery class from being primary arrow. Also, the high amount of arrow obtained will be useful for grind or weaker enemy for fast grind
What spam? Archers will just shoot arrows the same way they would with unlimited arrows. Literally nothing changes except for the money requirement. And no, other classes won't magically become better than archers at using the bow if arrows are unlimited. Archers will have weapon skills for bows so they'll always be better at using a
And again I ask: why have it cost anything if you mean to make the cost nothing? You're adding unnecessary steps to a perfectly fine and working system.
If you want to user resources, then I think the way to do it is the following.
You have a certain amount of resources, let's say 5 arrowheads (this decreases and increases depending on level).
Certain instant or charged skills require 1 or more arrowheads to be used.
To generate said arrowheads you need to user either specific skills or achieve a Crit with your basic attack or on your DoTs.
You then expend them back again once your skills are off cooldown.
Basic attacks have no limit on arrows.
This now resembles a rotation that actually works, doesn't gimp the Archetype, limits the otherwise unlimited use of certain skills and has an interesting game loop.
Not sure if I get you but your saying the basic arrow attack should be infinite and the special archery skills cost resource?
Correct. Basic attack should not be limited by ammunition in my vision of it.
You generate the class resource by using certain skills or using the basic attack or crits on DoTs. (I don't really have a preference on which one).
And then you expend that class resource on the special skills.
This however will mostly apply to Ranger based classes.
A Fighter using a Bow, may get some augments and skills if he specs into it, but otherwise would be limited to the infinite basic attack (which in his case would deal considerably less damage than his melee weapon). This serves mostly for kiting, or keeping uptime when the monster or boss uses a close range AoE.
That's OK I guess. Gives a different take with some consequences on attack Guage usage. Feels weird but at least different. What game was that from?
I'm not sure it fits any one game in particular, but there are classes in FFXIV that operate on a similar principle.
For instance, the Bard, which is the Archer class in the game, has 3 different songs. Each songs has its own effects. In one of them, you get 3 slots of a resource that fill up whenever your applied DoTs deal Crit damage. You can expend it using the associated skill at any point (using 1, 2 or 3 of that resource). But the more you have, the more damage you deal.
WoW also has stuff like this. I think for instance Warlock and Paladins generate resources with certain skills or attacks, and then you expend them for specific skills which require X amount of them.
I never tried bow in ff14 just cqc as I was never encouraged to use bow in many mmo due to just endlessly infinitely mashing. I mean it sounds OK but I still don't get how my idea wouldn't work. If anyone played ghost of tsushima legends they did it nice with limited arrows and swarms of enemy . Besides if they let us retrieved arrows from dead enemies and craft or have shops and vendors frequently at locations it wouldn't be bad at all.
If anyone played ghost of tsushima legends they did it nice with limited arrows and swarms of enemy . Besides if they let us retrieved arrows from dead enemies and craft or have shops and vendors frequently at locations it wouldn't be bad at all.
Mmos are not single player games. And most of the time their features don't quite match up. What works in one genre doesn't in the other. Especially when we're talking about a truly massive mmo like Ashes.
If anyone played ghost of tsushima legends they did it nice with limited arrows and swarms of enemy . Besides if they let us retrieved arrows from dead enemies and craft or have shops and vendors frequently at locations it wouldn't be bad at all.
Mmos are not single player games. And most of the time their features don't quite match up. What works in one genre doesn't in the other. Especially when we're talking about a truly massive mmo like Ashes.
The special part about AoC is it isn't like other mmo. How dynamic the game is design and the concept behind it. Not all game of same genre is the same copy and paste cookie cutter
Limitation helps avoid spam and non archery class from being primary arrow. Also, the high amount of arrow obtained will be useful for grind or weaker enemy for fast grind
What spam? Archers will just shoot arrows the same way they would with unlimited arrows. Literally nothing changes except for the money requirement. And no, other classes won't magically become better than archers at using the bow if arrows are unlimited. Archers will have weapon skills for bows so they'll always be better at using a
And again I ask: why have it cost anything if you mean to make the cost nothing? You're adding unnecessary steps to a perfectly fine and working system.
If you want to user resources, then I think the way to do it is the following.
You have a certain amount of resources, let's say 5 arrowheads (this decreases and increases depending on level).
Certain instant or charged skills require 1 or more arrowheads to be used.
To generate said arrowheads you need to user either specific skills or achieve a Crit with your basic attack or on your DoTs.
You then expend them back again once your skills are off cooldown.
Basic attacks have no limit on arrows.
This now resembles a rotation that actually works, doesn't gimp the Archetype, limits the otherwise unlimited use of certain skills and has an interesting game loop.
Not sure if I get you but your saying the basic arrow attack should be infinite and the special archery skills cost resource?
Correct. Basic attack should not be limited by ammunition in my vision of it.
You generate the class resource by using certain skills or using the basic attack or crits on DoTs. (I don't really have a preference on which one).
And then you expend that class resource on the special skills.
This however will mostly apply to Ranger based classes.
A Fighter using a Bow, may get some augments and skills if he specs into it, but otherwise would be limited to the infinite basic attack (which in his case would deal considerably less damage than his melee weapon). This serves mostly for kiting, or keeping uptime when the monster or boss uses a close range AoE.
That's OK I guess. Gives a different take with some consequences on attack Guage usage. Feels weird but at least different. What game was that from?
I'm not sure it fits any one game in particular, but there are classes in FFXIV that operate on a similar principle.
For instance, the Bard, which is the Archer class in the game, has 3 different songs. Each songs has its own effects. In one of them, you get 3 slots of a resource that fill up whenever your applied DoTs deal Crit damage. You can expend it using the associated skill at any point (using 1, 2 or 3 of that resource). But the more you have, the more damage you deal.
WoW also has stuff like this. I think for instance Warlock and Paladins generate resources with certain skills or attacks, and then you expend them for specific skills which require X amount of them.
I never tried bow in ff14 just cqc as I was never encouraged to use bow in many mmo due to just endlessly infinitely mashing. I mean it sounds OK but I still don't get how my idea wouldn't work. If anyone played ghost of tsushima legends they did it nice with limited arrows and swarms of enemy . Besides if they let us retrieved arrows from dead enemies and craft or have shops and vendors frequently at locations it wouldn't be bad at all.
The difference is that Ghost of Tsushima Legends is a multiplayer adaptation of a single player game. The economy of it matters considerably less than in an MMO where resources may be scarce, contested and variable in availability.
Sure, everyone can use a bow in AoC, but it's going to mostly be a Ranger and Ranger + 2nd Archetype's tool of war.
So now, tell a player:
"Hey, Rangers are really cool! But you're the only Archetype in the game whose main weapon requires you to constantly sink your hard earned money into having your primary weapon actually work and deal damage.
Everyone else can just use their weapon and occasionally repair it from damage. But you? You have to buy all of the arrows for your basic attack to even work. And sure, arrows may be cheap at first. But what of whenever some large guild claims a partial monopoly on the resources for it? Or if the mayor of your node taxes them higher than everything else, because he just effing hates archers?
Limitation helps avoid spam and non archery class from being primary arrow. Also, the high amount of arrow obtained will be useful for grind or weaker enemy for fast grind
What spam? Archers will just shoot arrows the same way they would with unlimited arrows. Literally nothing changes except for the money requirement. And no, other classes won't magically become better than archers at using the bow if arrows are unlimited. Archers will have weapon skills for bows so they'll always be better at using a
And again I ask: why have it cost anything if you mean to make the cost nothing? You're adding unnecessary steps to a perfectly fine and working system.
If you want to user resources, then I think the way to do it is the following.
You have a certain amount of resources, let's say 5 arrowheads (this decreases and increases depending on level).
Certain instant or charged skills require 1 or more arrowheads to be used.
To generate said arrowheads you need to user either specific skills or achieve a Crit with your basic attack or on your DoTs.
You then expend them back again once your skills are off cooldown.
Basic attacks have no limit on arrows.
This now resembles a rotation that actually works, doesn't gimp the Archetype, limits the otherwise unlimited use of certain skills and has an interesting game loop.
Not sure if I get you but your saying the basic arrow attack should be infinite and the special archery skills cost resource?
Correct. Basic attack should not be limited by ammunition in my vision of it.
You generate the class resource by using certain skills or using the basic attack or crits on DoTs. (I don't really have a preference on which one).
And then you expend that class resource on the special skills.
This however will mostly apply to Ranger based classes.
A Fighter using a Bow, may get some augments and skills if he specs into it, but otherwise would be limited to the infinite basic attack (which in his case would deal considerably less damage than his melee weapon). This serves mostly for kiting, or keeping uptime when the monster or boss uses a close range AoE.
That's OK I guess. Gives a different take with some consequences on attack Guage usage. Feels weird but at least different. What game was that from?
I'm not sure it fits any one game in particular, but there are classes in FFXIV that operate on a similar principle.
For instance, the Bard, which is the Archer class in the game, has 3 different songs. Each songs has its own effects. In one of them, you get 3 slots of a resource that fill up whenever your applied DoTs deal Crit damage. You can expend it using the associated skill at any point (using 1, 2 or 3 of that resource). But the more you have, the more damage you deal.
WoW also has stuff like this. I think for instance Warlock and Paladins generate resources with certain skills or attacks, and then you expend them for specific skills which require X amount of them.
I never tried bow in ff14 just cqc as I was never encouraged to use bow in many mmo due to just endlessly infinitely mashing. I mean it sounds OK but I still don't get how my idea wouldn't work. If anyone played ghost of tsushima legends they did it nice with limited arrows and swarms of enemy . Besides if they let us retrieved arrows from dead enemies and craft or have shops and vendors frequently at locations it wouldn't be bad at all.
The difference is that Ghost of Tsushima Legends is a multiplayer adaptation of a single player game. The economy of it matters considerably less than in an MMO where resources may be scarce, contested and variable in availability.
Sure, everyone can use a bow in AoC, but it's going to mostly be a Ranger and Ranger + 2nd Archetype's tool of war.
So now, tell a player:
"Hey, Rangers are really cool! But you're the only Archetype in the game whose main weapon requires you to constantly sink your hard earned money into having your primary weapon actually work and deal damage.
Everyone else can just use their weapon and occasionally repair it from damage. But you? You have to buy all of the arrows for your basic attack to even work. And sure, arrows may be cheap at first. But what of whenever some large guild claims a partial monopoly on the resources for it? Or if the mayor of your node taxes them higher than everything else, because he just effing hates archers?
Anyway. So you wanna play Ranger?"
Well..everytimeI bring up my plan everyone immediately jumps to buying arrows but no one recognize that I also said arrows can be looted from dead enemies and crafted from abundant resources without having to worry about money. On top of that the special arrow abilities are infinite as well they just require cooldowns. More than enough options to keep an archer going for long without spending much
The special part about AoC is it isn't like other mmo. How dynamic the game is design and the concept behind it. Not all game of same genre is the same copy and paste cookie cutter
I mean, the only thing that sets it apart from other mmos is the node system. Pretty much any other feature has been done before in some other mmo. But nodes have nothing to do with arrows being unlimited or not, so I don't see a correlation here.
In Ultima Online, not only did archers need arrows, but mages needed reagents to cast spells. About 8 or 9 separate reagents. Things like black pearl, mandrake, ginseng, nightshade.
I think we're long past those days. Anyway, don't care too much about the topic because all rangers are edgelord weebs irl.
In Ultima Online, not only did archers need arrows, but mages needed reagents to cast spells. About 8 or 9 separate reagents. Things like black pearl, mandrake, ginseng, nightshade.
I think an additional resource that boosts/changes attacks for all classes could be cool, but that's pretty much what augments and enchantments gonna do so it's kinda pointless.
In Ultima Online, not only did archers need arrows, but mages needed reagents to cast spells. About 8 or 9 separate reagents. Things like black pearl, mandrake, ginseng, nightshade.
I think an additional resource that boosts/changes attacks for all classes could be cool, but that's pretty much what augments and enchantments gonna do so it's kinda pointless.
If cqc weapon require repair after a while then wouldn't that balance out with the arrows required for archery?
If cqc weapon require repair after a while then wouldn't that balance out with the arrows required for archery?
Dunno what cqc is, but weapon repair will require weapon mats iirc. Weapon mats will cost quite a lot of money (especially for high lvl weapons), so it'd be almost impossible to properly balance the cost values for arrows and mats to make them both cost the same as another class just fixing their weapon.
Also, which amount of arrows do you set the cost reduction at? Is it the value of 1k arrows? A 100? 100k? How expensive do you make the mats for arrows then? How do you control the pricing in such a way that it's properly equalized?
Do you maybe reduce the amount of mats required to repair a bow by X amount and then use that X to craft the arrows (still would have to determine a "proper" number of arrows)? But then all bows will cost relatively less than all the other weapons, while arrows might be in surplus. And this would bring an imbalance of the opposite kind, making archers cheaper to utilize than other classes.
Literally none of those issues would be present in the game if you just made arrows unlimited.
My question is why do you want arrows to have to be its own thing for our basic attacks and/or skills so badly?
As Nikr said people won't really be more careful, if people are using tab for example your arrows hit all the time anyway. If its a skill shot or in action mode if people are having to think and be very careful with their arrows and making sure they don't waste anything, they are technically losing dps. So why wouldn't you just paly a mage at that point then, why play a inferior class with a higher skill ceiling / cost that is done in not a fun way?
Limitation helps avoid spam and non archery class from being primary arrow. Also, the high amount of arrow obtained will be useful for grind or weaker enemy for fast grind
What spam? Archers will just shoot arrows the same way they would with unlimited arrows. Literally nothing changes except for the money requirement. And no, other classes won't magically become better than archers at using the bow if arrows are unlimited. Archers will have weapon skills for bows so they'll always be better at using a
And again I ask: why have it cost anything if you mean to make the cost nothing? You're adding unnecessary steps to a perfectly fine and working system.
If you want to user resources, then I think the way to do it is the following.
You have a certain amount of resources, let's say 5 arrowheads (this decreases and increases depending on level).
Certain instant or charged skills require 1 or more arrowheads to be used.
To generate said arrowheads you need to user either specific skills or achieve a Crit with your basic attack or on your DoTs.
You then expend them back again once your skills are off cooldown.
Basic attacks have no limit on arrows.
This now resembles a rotation that actually works, doesn't gimp the Archetype, limits the otherwise unlimited use of certain skills and has an interesting game loop.
Not sure if I get you but your saying the basic arrow attack should be infinite and the special archery skills cost resource?
Correct. Basic attack should not be limited by ammunition in my vision of it.
You generate the class resource by using certain skills or using the basic attack or crits on DoTs. (I don't really have a preference on which one).
And then you expend that class resource on the special skills.
This however will mostly apply to Ranger based classes.
A Fighter using a Bow, may get some augments and skills if he specs into it, but otherwise would be limited to the infinite basic attack (which in his case would deal considerably less damage than his melee weapon). This serves mostly for kiting, or keeping uptime when the monster or boss uses a close range AoE.
That's OK I guess. Gives a different take with some consequences on attack Guage usage. Feels weird but at least different. What game was that from?
I'm not sure it fits any one game in particular, but there are classes in FFXIV that operate on a similar principle.
For instance, the Bard, which is the Archer class in the game, has 3 different songs. Each songs has its own effects. In one of them, you get 3 slots of a resource that fill up whenever your applied DoTs deal Crit damage. You can expend it using the associated skill at any point (using 1, 2 or 3 of that resource). But the more you have, the more damage you deal.
WoW also has stuff like this. I think for instance Warlock and Paladins generate resources with certain skills or attacks, and then you expend them for specific skills which require X amount of them.
I never tried bow in ff14 just cqc as I was never encouraged to use bow in many mmo due to just endlessly infinitely mashing. I mean it sounds OK but I still don't get how my idea wouldn't work. If anyone played ghost of tsushima legends they did it nice with limited arrows and swarms of enemy . Besides if they let us retrieved arrows from dead enemies and craft or have shops and vendors frequently at locations it wouldn't be bad at all.
The difference is that Ghost of Tsushima Legends is a multiplayer adaptation of a single player game. The economy of it matters considerably less than in an MMO where resources may be scarce, contested and variable in availability.
Sure, everyone can use a bow in AoC, but it's going to mostly be a Ranger and Ranger + 2nd Archetype's tool of war.
So now, tell a player:
"Hey, Rangers are really cool! But you're the only Archetype in the game whose main weapon requires you to constantly sink your hard earned money into having your primary weapon actually work and deal damage.
Everyone else can just use their weapon and occasionally repair it from damage. But you? You have to buy all of the arrows for your basic attack to even work. And sure, arrows may be cheap at first. But what of whenever some large guild claims a partial monopoly on the resources for it? Or if the mayor of your node taxes them higher than everything else, because he just effing hates archers?
Anyway. So you wanna play Ranger?"
Well..everytimeI bring up my plan everyone immediately jumps to buying arrows but no one recognize that I also said arrows can be looted from dead enemies and crafted from abundant resources without having to worry about money. On top of that the special arrow abilities are infinite as well they just require cooldowns. More than enough options to keep an archer going for long without spending much
Except arrows can't' be looted from monsters in the wild in AoC. Youd don't get items or materials directly from monsters. You get essentially a proof of kill which in turn you trade in town for items. No wolves carrying boots and gold coins in Verra.
Except arrows can't' be looted from monsters in the wild in AoC. Youd don't get items or materials directly from monsters. You get essentially a proof of kill which in turn you trade in town for items. No wolves carrying boots and gold coins in Verra.
But that's the point. Ohmi suggested a shitty design and immediately suggested a fix for said shitty design
Except arrows can't' be looted from monsters in the wild in AoC. Youd don't get items or materials directly from monsters. You get essentially a proof of kill which in turn you trade in town for items. No wolves carrying boots and gold coins in Verra.
But that's the point. Ohmi suggested a shitty design and immediately suggested a fix for said shitty design
It's not a great fix. You can loot arrows if...
- You're not in a Siege where you don't have time to do so safely.
- You're not defending a caravan that's continuing to move along as you fight, leaving the corpses far behind by the time you can safely loot them.
- You're not in a raid with relatively fewer adds to loot from.
- You don't get unlucky with your loot quantity over time and gain less than you spend.
In these or many other possible cases, you have to pay money to use your basic attack.
Thing is. Ashes isn't a pure ability-spam game. Your basic attack matters. If you just spam abilities you're going to run out of MP/stamina. You have to use your basic attack to be fully effective. So in the end, it all still comes down to "you have to pay money to play your class". And sure, everyone else has to repair their weapons too. But are bows just not going to ever need repair? That goes against core requirements of the intended economic design. Bows need an item sink for the same reason greatswords do. Paying for arrows is just extra.
Except arrows can't' be looted from monsters in the wild in AoC. Youd don't get items or materials directly from monsters. You get essentially a proof of kill which in turn you trade in town for items. No wolves carrying boots and gold coins in Verra.
But that's the point. Ohmi suggested a shitty design and immediately suggested a fix for said shitty design
How is it shifty? So many people thinking like this. This is why mmo games die fast. They just want to be the next wow or gw2. No one takes risk. EQ got boring with the endless quivers. Mmo in general is a chore to begin with anyways..loot grind etc. How is finding simple resource to craft arrows or looting or buying arrows any different? Besides New World requires ammunition and arrows and they did a pretty good idea.
How is it shifty? So many people thinking like this. This is why mmo games die fast. They just want to be the next wow or gw2. No one takes risk. EQ got boring with the endless quivers. Mmo in general is a chore to begin with anyways..loot grind etc. How is finding simple resource to craft arrows or looting or buying arrows any different? Besides New World requires ammunition and arrows and they did a pretty good idea.
From what I've seen in this thread, quite a few people have had experiences with limited resource classes and disliked it. So no, it's not just "this is why mmos die".
And giving NW as an example of "they tried to do a risky thing and look at them now" is definitely not the best way of presenting your argument.
Either way, several people have disagreed with your point and pointed out why it is bad. You've disagreed with their counterarguments, but haven't managed to prove why your point works despite the issues listed. I don't see this discussion going in any meaningful and productive direction so I'll take my leave here
Except arrows can't' be looted from monsters in the wild in AoC. Youd don't get items or materials directly from monsters. You get essentially a proof of kill which in turn you trade in town for items. No wolves carrying boots and gold coins in Verra.
But that's the point. Ohmi suggested a shitty design and immediately suggested a fix for said shitty design
It's not a great fix. You can loot arrows if...
- You're not in a Siege where you don't have time to do so safely.
- You're not defending a caravan that's continuing to move along as you fight, leaving the corpses far behind by the time you can safely loot them.
- You're not in a raid with relatively fewer adds to loot from.
- You don't get unlucky with your loot quantity over time and gain less than you spend.
In these or many other possible cases, you have to pay money to use your basic attack.
Thing is. Ashes isn't a pure ability-spam game. Your basic attack matters. If you just spam abilities you're going to run out of MP/stamina. You have to use your basic attack to be fully effective. So in the end, it all still comes down to "you have to pay money to play your class". And sure, everyone else has to repair their weapons too. But are bows just not going to ever need repair? That goes against core requirements of the intended economic design. Bows need an item sink for the same reason greatswords do. Paying for arrows is just extra.
You must not have played EQ or Asherons call. Arrows were easy and cheap to craft and magicians can summons arrows back. Don't see why not have a siege summons arrows you shot or missed back at you? A simple in combat hotkey to craft and restock in a fight with a cooldown counter like abilities. In asheron archery learn to create so much inventory space that they rarely run out of arrows in raid or anything
Except arrows can't' be looted from monsters in the wild in AoC. Youd don't get items or materials directly from monsters. You get essentially a proof of kill which in turn you trade in town for items. No wolves carrying boots and gold coins in Verra.
But that's the point. Ohmi suggested a shitty design and immediately suggested a fix for said shitty design
It's not a great fix. You can loot arrows if...
- You're not in a Siege where you don't have time to do so safely.
- You're not defending a caravan that's continuing to move along as you fight, leaving the corpses far behind by the time you can safely loot them.
- You're not in a raid with relatively fewer adds to loot from.
- You don't get unlucky with your loot quantity over time and gain less than you spend.
In these or many other possible cases, you have to pay money to use your basic attack.
Thing is. Ashes isn't a pure ability-spam game. Your basic attack matters. If you just spam abilities you're going to run out of MP/stamina. You have to use your basic attack to be fully effective. So in the end, it all still comes down to "you have to pay money to play your class". And sure, everyone else has to repair their weapons too. But are bows just not going to ever need repair? That goes against core requirements of the intended economic design. Bows need an item sink for the same reason greatswords do. Paying for arrows is just extra.
You must not have played EQ or Asherons call. Arrows were easy and cheap to craft and magicians can summons arrows back. Don't see why not have a siege summons arrows you shot or missed back at you? A simple in combat hotkey to craft and restock in a fight with a cooldown counter like abilities. In asheron archery learn to create so much inventory space that they rarely run out of arrows in raid or anything
So you should need ammunition. But you should be able to craft it in battle. And it shouldn't have a meaningful cost. And you should be able to normally never run out.
Except arrows can't' be looted from monsters in the wild in AoC. Youd don't get items or materials directly from monsters. You get essentially a proof of kill which in turn you trade in town for items. No wolves carrying boots and gold coins in Verra.
But that's the point. Ohmi suggested a shitty design and immediately suggested a fix for said shitty design
How is it shifty? So many people thinking like this. This is why mmo games die fast. They just want to be the next wow or gw2. No one takes risk. EQ got boring with the endless quivers. Mmo in general is a chore to begin with anyways..loot grind etc. How is finding simple resource to craft arrows or looting or buying arrows any different? Besides New World requires ammunition and arrows and they did a pretty good idea.
It's not a risk, it's bad design. As I said before:
You're imposing a clear disadvantage on one Archetype versus the others. Yes it worked well in the PvE multiplayer version of a Single Player narrative driven game. AoC is not that.
The actual economy, the players partaking in open world PvP, the open world Raids etc. It all makes your current design idea flawed and inapplicable.
Don't go saying we're somehow the cause of a genre's death. If we implemented ideas like the one you've presented the game would be dead within a month of release, much like New World is.
Arrows can't' be looted from monsters in the wild in AoC. Youd don't get items or materials directly from monsters. You get essentially a proof of kill which in turn you trade in town for items. No wolves carrying boots and gold coins in Verra.
So it's not as easy as looting a simple resource. Your idea is not good. You provided an idea. It doesn't work in this context. Take the L and move on. No need to accuse anyone of murdering a genre you're clearly not understanding.
Comments
You have a certain amount of resources, let's say 5 arrowheads (this decreases and increases depending on level).
Certain instant or charged skills require 1 or more arrowheads to be used.
To generate said arrowheads you need to user either specific skills or achieve a Crit with your basic attack or on your DoTs.
You then expend them back again once your skills are off cooldown.
Basic attacks have no limit on arrows.
This now resembles a rotation that actually works, doesn't gimp the Archetype, limits the otherwise unlimited use of certain skills and has an interesting game loop.
I like this. Reminds of a class I played in GW2, I can't remember what it was though, as my time with the game was brief.
The same can be said for archery lv up. It will allow better craft better arrows upon lv up
Prevent just hitting same attack button infinitely brainlessly
It's not unnecessary. Goes back to my previous point. Helps just spamming attack button infinitely and if your party runs all bow then the archery craft helps everyone stock up on arrows
Not sure if I get you but your saying the basic arrow attack should be infinite and the special archery skills cost resource?
Correct. Basic attack should not be limited by ammunition in my vision of it.
You generate the class resource by using certain skills or using the basic attack or crits on DoTs. (I don't really have a preference on which one).
And then you expend that class resource on the special skills.
This however will mostly apply to Ranger based classes.
A Fighter using a Bow, may get some augments and skills if he specs into it, but otherwise would be limited to the infinite basic attack (which in his case would deal considerably less damage than his melee weapon). After all the core skills of the fighter will be melee.
Having a bow for any other melee classes serves mostly for kiting, or keeping uptime when the monster or boss uses a close range AoE.
That's OK I guess. Gives a different take with some consequences on attack Guage usage. Feels weird but at least different. What game was that from?
Your suggestion changes nothing, but makes archers' life harder for no good reason.
I'm not sure it fits any one game in particular, but there are classes in FFXIV that operate on a similar principle.
For instance, the Bard, which is the Archer class in the game, has 3 different songs. Each songs has its own effects. In one of them, you get 3 slots of a resource that fill up whenever your applied DoTs deal Crit damage. You can expend it using the associated skill at any point (using 1, 2 or 3 of that resource). But the more you have, the more damage you deal.
WoW also has stuff like this. I think for instance Warlock and Paladins generate resources with certain skills or attacks, and then you expend them for specific skills which require X amount of them.
I never tried bow in ff14 just cqc as I was never encouraged to use bow in many mmo due to just endlessly infinitely mashing. I mean it sounds OK but I still don't get how my idea wouldn't work. If anyone played ghost of tsushima legends they did it nice with limited arrows and swarms of enemy . Besides if they let us retrieved arrows from dead enemies and craft or have shops and vendors frequently at locations it wouldn't be bad at all.
The special part about AoC is it isn't like other mmo. How dynamic the game is design and the concept behind it. Not all game of same genre is the same copy and paste cookie cutter
The difference is that Ghost of Tsushima Legends is a multiplayer adaptation of a single player game. The economy of it matters considerably less than in an MMO where resources may be scarce, contested and variable in availability.
Sure, everyone can use a bow in AoC, but it's going to mostly be a Ranger and Ranger + 2nd Archetype's tool of war.
So now, tell a player:
"Hey, Rangers are really cool! But you're the only Archetype in the game whose main weapon requires you to constantly sink your hard earned money into having your primary weapon actually work and deal damage.
Everyone else can just use their weapon and occasionally repair it from damage. But you? You have to buy all of the arrows for your basic attack to even work. And sure, arrows may be cheap at first. But what of whenever some large guild claims a partial monopoly on the resources for it? Or if the mayor of your node taxes them higher than everything else, because he just effing hates archers?
Anyway. So you wanna play Ranger?"
Well..everytimeI bring up my plan everyone immediately jumps to buying arrows but no one recognize that I also said arrows can be looted from dead enemies and crafted from abundant resources without having to worry about money. On top of that the special arrow abilities are infinite as well they just require cooldowns. More than enough options to keep an archer going for long without spending much
I think we're long past those days. Anyway, don't care too much about the topic because all rangers are edgelord weebs irl.
If cqc weapon require repair after a while then wouldn't that balance out with the arrows required for archery?
Also, which amount of arrows do you set the cost reduction at? Is it the value of 1k arrows? A 100? 100k? How expensive do you make the mats for arrows then? How do you control the pricing in such a way that it's properly equalized?
Do you maybe reduce the amount of mats required to repair a bow by X amount and then use that X to craft the arrows (still would have to determine a "proper" number of arrows)? But then all bows will cost relatively less than all the other weapons, while arrows might be in surplus. And this would bring an imbalance of the opposite kind, making archers cheaper to utilize than other classes.
Literally none of those issues would be present in the game if you just made arrows unlimited.
As Nikr said people won't really be more careful, if people are using tab for example your arrows hit all the time anyway. If its a skill shot or in action mode if people are having to think and be very careful with their arrows and making sure they don't waste anything, they are technically losing dps. So why wouldn't you just paly a mage at that point then, why play a inferior class with a higher skill ceiling / cost that is done in not a fun way?
Except arrows can't' be looted from monsters in the wild in AoC. Youd don't get items or materials directly from monsters. You get essentially a proof of kill which in turn you trade in town for items. No wolves carrying boots and gold coins in Verra.
It's not a great fix. You can loot arrows if...
- You're not in a Siege where you don't have time to do so safely.
- You're not defending a caravan that's continuing to move along as you fight, leaving the corpses far behind by the time you can safely loot them.
- You're not in a raid with relatively fewer adds to loot from.
- You don't get unlucky with your loot quantity over time and gain less than you spend.
In these or many other possible cases, you have to pay money to use your basic attack.
Thing is. Ashes isn't a pure ability-spam game. Your basic attack matters. If you just spam abilities you're going to run out of MP/stamina. You have to use your basic attack to be fully effective. So in the end, it all still comes down to "you have to pay money to play your class". And sure, everyone else has to repair their weapons too. But are bows just not going to ever need repair? That goes against core requirements of the intended economic design. Bows need an item sink for the same reason greatswords do. Paying for arrows is just extra.
How is it shifty? So many people thinking like this. This is why mmo games die fast. They just want to be the next wow or gw2. No one takes risk. EQ got boring with the endless quivers. Mmo in general is a chore to begin with anyways..loot grind etc. How is finding simple resource to craft arrows or looting or buying arrows any different? Besides New World requires ammunition and arrows and they did a pretty good idea.
And giving NW as an example of "they tried to do a risky thing and look at them now" is definitely not the best way of presenting your argument.
Either way, several people have disagreed with your point and pointed out why it is bad. You've disagreed with their counterarguments, but haven't managed to prove why your point works despite the issues listed. I don't see this discussion going in any meaningful and productive direction so I'll take my leave here
You must not have played EQ or Asherons call. Arrows were easy and cheap to craft and magicians can summons arrows back. Don't see why not have a siege summons arrows you shot or missed back at you? A simple in combat hotkey to craft and restock in a fight with a cooldown counter like abilities. In asheron archery learn to create so much inventory space that they rarely run out of arrows in raid or anything
So you should need ammunition. But you should be able to craft it in battle. And it shouldn't have a meaningful cost. And you should be able to normally never run out.
Forgive me, but... why?
It's not a risk, it's bad design. As I said before:
You're imposing a clear disadvantage on one Archetype versus the others. Yes it worked well in the PvE multiplayer version of a Single Player narrative driven game. AoC is not that.
The actual economy, the players partaking in open world PvP, the open world Raids etc. It all makes your current design idea flawed and inapplicable.
Don't go saying we're somehow the cause of a genre's death. If we implemented ideas like the one you've presented the game would be dead within a month of release, much like New World is.
And let me repeat this:
So it's not as easy as looting a simple resource. Your idea is not good. You provided an idea. It doesn't work in this context. Take the L and move on. No need to accuse anyone of murdering a genre you're clearly not understanding.