How will open world dungeons function properly

Me when hear a game will fail because pve isn't what they want, sounds like the gold argument -fp-. Anyway I don't know why anyone thinks they are doing PvE content while being attacked by pvp players, if there is a threat of another guild showing up in a dungeon you better be ready to fight and drop the PvE. You aren't doing both at the same time. No mechanics need to change or be made worst, you need to deal with a player threat.

Unless you are that cocky that you are going to farm the players and the boss at the same time.

Mag7spy wrote: »

Me when hear a game will fail because pve isn't what they want, sounds like the gold argument -fp-. Anyway I don't know why anyone thinks they are doing PvE content while being attacked by pvp players, if there is a threat of another guild showing up in a dungeon you better be ready to fight and drop the PvE. You aren't doing both at the same time. No mechanics need to change or be made worst, you need to deal with a player threat.

The whole point is that you can't just disengage the pve to fight the players. And if pve is challenging than any interruptions will fuck up both the pve and the pvp and you'll most likely just die.

Ransel

I've seen content locking become a strategy in PvP before, and in PvE for that matter too.

Ie. A big guild will lock down some portion of PvE progression (like a non instanced dungeon) to prevent players from progressing to better gear or weapons.

This stops effective pvp competition from forming, makes PvE players pay your guild for access to the content, and makes it easier to lock down new content for your guild.

This only really works for big guilds able to lock down the content 24/7 though.

Instanced dungeons became a thing in MMOs for a reason. I do not like instanced dungeons one bit, but I think most people fail to recognize that they were created to solve a problem with the way mass amounts of players interact on these types of games.

Removing the instances from MMOs is a good thing, but it reintroduces the original problem of players being "toxic" ( for lack of a better word). I see that AoC is going for a PvE /PvP hybrid, and I hope they are successful, but at the end of the day, if good gear is locked behind PvE content, then that content becomes crucial to PvP and of necessity gets targeted by PvP players to control that resource.

Ransel wrote: »

This only really works for big guilds able to lock down the content 24/7 though.

And usually the other important factor is poor gear balancing. If just a single step in gear tiers is enough for those at the top to completely dominate anyone below them - of course it's gonna be easy for them to just prevent anyone from farming some piece of content. But if gear is fairly close in its power lvl, then even weaker-geared people might win out a few battles here and there and get a chance to farm.

NiKr wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

Me when hear a game will fail because pve isn't what they want, sounds like the gold argument -fp-. Anyway I don't know why anyone thinks they are doing PvE content while being attacked by pvp players, if there is a threat of another guild showing up in a dungeon you better be ready to fight and drop the PvE. You aren't doing both at the same time. No mechanics need to change or be made worst, you need to deal with a player threat.

The whole point is that you can't just disengage the pve to fight the players. And if pve is challenging than any interruptions will fuck up both the pve and the pvp and you'll most likely just die.

You are 100% disengaging the pve, killing them and then doing the pve before they get back. You don't pvp them inside the mobs that just be dumb.

Elder

Mag7spy wrote: »

NiKr wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

Me when hear a game will fail because pve isn't what they want, sounds like the gold argument -fp-. Anyway I don't know why anyone thinks they are doing PvE content while being attacked by pvp players, if there is a threat of another guild showing up in a dungeon you better be ready to fight and drop the PvE. You aren't doing both at the same time. No mechanics need to change or be made worst, you need to deal with a player threat.

The whole point is that you can't just disengage the pve to fight the players. And if pve is challenging than any interruptions will fuck up both the pve and the pvp and you'll most likely just die.

You are 100% disengaging the pve, killing them and then doing the pve before they get back. You don't pvp them inside the mobs that just be dumb.

Disengaging may not be so simple. From what I remember from showcases and the A1, the enemies inside dungeons had an extremely long leash range.

It may be more feasible to reset a boss encounter to focus on PvP but that would require the other group to also leave the boss room instead of just taking over the fight.

Mag7spy wrote: »

You are 100% disengaging the pve, killing them and then doing the pve before they get back. You don't pvp them inside the mobs that just be dumb.

You're in a limited space (if we're talking dungeons here). Mobs will most likely have a pull radius of the whole room and maybe even a bit outside of it. You're fighting the mobs in the room and dudes come into the room and start fighting you. How do you disengage the mobs here?

And again, this is in the context of mobs being difficult and not just braindead weak ones.

Ransel

At a certain point it's not even about beating the PvE content, it becomes about preventing others from completing the PvE content and gearing up.

If PvE has good gear drops, then it becomes a target of PvP of PvP players who want to lock down that content to slow down their competition.

You don't even have to beat a guild in a fight to cause enough chaos to prevent them from beating a dungeon.

NiKr wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

You are 100% disengaging the pve, killing them and then doing the pve before they get back. You don't pvp them inside the mobs that just be dumb.

You're in a limited space (if we're talking dungeons here). Mobs will most likely have a pull radius of the whole room and maybe even a bit outside of it. You're fighting the mobs in the room and dudes come into the room and start fighting you. How do you disengage the mobs here?

And again, this is in the context of mobs being difficult and not just braindead weak ones.

Well we will have to look at encounter to encounter, if there is a way int here has to be a way out. If another party is starting to show up you should have some notice ahead of time that a guild is entering your area. Either way at that point you don't do the pve content your focus will have to be on beating the other players. For this kind of thing id expect respawn points to be far upon dying as well. Else you aren't doing pve you need to win the pvp first until one gives up.

Ransel

Logging out characters at essential content is how you trick a guild into starting a fight. Then you log in after they engage and wreck their attempt at a dungeon boss.

People use spies and spotters for this type of thing, but maybe you know this from your name?

Veeshan

Have somone watch ur backs so you have time to drop agro of kill x mob.

Im sure they function alot like dungeons from Everquest PvP servers tbh which i think worked fine appart from everquest pvp wasnt very balanced :P

Mag7spy wrote: »

Well we will have to look at encounter to encounter, if there is a way int here has to be a way out. If another party is starting to show up you should have some notice ahead of time that a guild is entering your area. Either way at that point you don't do the pve content your focus will have to be on beating the other players. For this kind of thing id expect respawn points to be far upon dying as well. Else you aren't doing pve you need to win the pvp first until one gives up.

L2's dungeons had a ton of dead end rooms and quite often they would have the best mobs in the dungeon or just a boss spawn point, so there weren't always a way out.

As for notices, that would only work if you're a part of a guild that's at war with another guild and you're always on the lookout for them. But quite often you might just be a party of people who're farming a room and there's another random party that comes in and wants to fight you for that room.

If you're a group of 8 people and the mobs are properly difficult, you won't have anyone to be the lookout, standing somewhere else in the dungeon. Though even if you did stand somewhere else, there's no assurance that the party that's running through the dungeon is going directly for your room, so you disengaging a valuable mob preemptively might just fuck over your ability rotations (assuming we have super long cd abilities with high value).

And even if you have a lookout and he stands right outside your room, as I've said, your room might be a dead end and the only way out is through another group. But at this point you're at low mana/health because you were engaging the mob, so any kind of pvp would be hugely disadvantages to you. And depending on how Intrepid sets up loot rights checks, if you just run out of the room and the newcomers finish out the mob (because they've got all their abilities at the ready) - you might lose your valuable loot. And if you don't run away, we come back to the "pvp is shitty for you cause you're not at full power".

None of these things were really an issue in L2 because pve was super basic, but if Ashes will indeed have complex and hard pve then there's gotta be a way to manipulate mobs in your favor, in case someone comes to take them from you. The newcomers would have the same tools too, at which point it'd become a game of chess and proper party gameplay, where the more skilled group should ultimately win.

Ashes dungeons/raids should be more about defeating the bosses to end their deleterious effects on the region, rather than about preventing others from getting gear.

Elder

Dygz wrote: »

Ashes dungeons/raids should be more about defeating the bosses to end their deleterious effects on the region, rather than about preventing others from getting gear.

It's my understanding that the dungeon story arcs unlocked through node progression only influence the content and objectives throughout a dungeon and don't have any fail conditions or impose any negative effects on a region.

Is it not true that these fail conditions only apply to random raid events, NPC node attacks, seasonal events, etc, and not semi persistent dungeons?

Do you have a dev quote that states only?

Elder

It's an understanding I've come too through research.

I'm not stating it as fact but I've failed to find any information stating the intended design is for dungeons in AoC is to have fail conditions or impose any negative effects on the region. Only that the story arcs influence the content and objectives of the dungeon.

If you have any quotes or references proving otherwise I'd be happy to adjust my thinking on the topic.

Dygz wrote: »

Ashes dungeons/raids should be more about defeating the bosses to end their deleterious effects on the region, rather than about preventing others from getting gear.

And what if I want to prevent those bosses from getting killed exactly because I want their deleterious effects on the region to continue

3 birds one stone.

Exactly!!!