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Non-Combatant attacking Corrupted

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Comments

  • GrandHarfangGrandHarfang Member
    edited September 2022
    You can flag yourself as a purple, no need for a third person.

    Edit: looks like I was mistaken. You can't flag yourself to become purple.
  • LudulluLudullu Member, Alpha Two
    hleV wrote: »
    You need a 3rd person to flag purple, not to flag BH. This was in response to your "or they'd be just flagged through other means and wouldn't be fighting a red as a green". Or you didn't mean non-BH purples here?.
    A pvper would be pvping. Be it in pvp events or at farming locations. Because those would be the main forms of gameplay for a pvper. So if a red somehow enters a farming location where pvpers hang out, there's a higher chance that a pvper would already be flagged or could easily flag himself against someone near them if for whatever reason they didn't want to risk their loot. Though again, most farming locations will be party-based so if they see a PKer - he ded.
    hleV wrote: »
    There will be green benefit if they decide it's better than being a BH.

    Or they won't be BH, if it's more beneficial to stay green and scare reds into not fighting back.
    If you're planning on killing reds there's 0 reason to stay green. There's also a chance that BHs will be permaflagged against all reds (as that page indicates), so if you even join the organization you might be always flagged.

    And if you don't join that organization, you're losing out on its benefits, as a pvper. And if you don't care about that system, you most likely have better things to do than hunt reds, at which point we return to the "if you see a red, you're most likely with a party and the red will be dead".

    In the practical application of the whole system, the chance of the issue, you bring up, happening is close to 0. But what your "solution" would most likely influence is high lvl Reds attacking lowbies and said lowbies not having a way to fight back (even as a group) because them fighting back would probably never punish the red. While the red would be completely free to fight off any attackers all up until they find mobs to remove their corruption on. And this whole situation is not punishing the red it just lets him avoid said punishment.
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    I mean... a PvPer sometimes does PvE. A PvEer might sometimes PvP.
    And, yes, if the Green is not alone, they could potentially flag by hitting someone nearby who is not Corrupt - if they really wanted to flag for some reason.
    Depends on whether or not I was in the mood for PvP combat. Depends on whether I know the Corrupted and wish to try to give them more Corruption.
    Of course, killing a Red actually helps them quickly remove Corruption, so..
  • daveywaveydaveywavey Member, Alpha Two
    A Green being able to flag against a Red doesn't prevent the Bounty Hunter system, cos the Red's still there already. The only thing it does is prevent the Green from being able to halve their death penalty if they lose, which is the choice that every player has in any other PvP situation.

    Scenario:
    A Green is going about their day, and is attacked by a Red.

    Outcomes:
    1 - The Green doesn't fight back and is killed. The Red gains more Corruption and gets more loot than they would have were the Green flagged as Purple. The Green loses more loot than they would have were they flagged as Purple.
    2 - The Green doesn't fight back and the Red stops the attack (unlikely, cos they've already proved they're happy to kill Greens)
    3 - The Green does fight back, and is killed. The Red gains more Corruption and gets more loot than they would have were the Green flagged as Purple. The Green loses more loot than they would have were they flagged as Purple.
    4 - The Green does fight back, and kills the Red. The Green gets exactly the same loot as they would have done were they flagged as Purple.

    In all outcomes where PvP occurs, the Green gains no benefit to not being able to flag Purple.

    If the Corruption system is designed to prevent the abuse of Green players, then it's not quite doing that here. Red players are actually incentivised into attacking Greens, cos they're going to get more loot due to the Green not being able to flag Purple.
    This link may help you: https://ashesofcreation.wiki/


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  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    The benefit of the Green dying is the Red gains more Corrutption - which should deter more PKing, but at least punishes the Red with 4x the recovery time than the Green. Especially since the quickest way to remove Corruption is through death. And it will take at least two deaths to remove the Corruption, in this scenario.

    It's well-balanced. Normal death penalties for Greens is OK.
  • daveywaveydaveywavey Member, Alpha Two
    Dygz wrote: »
    The benefit of the Green dying is the Red gains more Corrutption - which should deter more PKing, but at least punishes the Red with 4x the recovery time than the Green. Especially since the quickest way to remove Corruption is through death. And it will take at least two deaths to remove the Corruption, in this scenario.

    It's well-balanced. Normal death penalties for Greens is OK.

    That's not a benefit to the Green. It's barely a benefit at all, to be honest, but if anything it's just a benefit to the next Green. Not the one that's just been killed.
    This link may help you: https://ashesofcreation.wiki/


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  • daveywavey wrote: »
    If the Corruption system is designed to prevent the abuse of Green players, then it's not quite doing that here. Red players are actually incentivised into attacking Greens, cos they're going to get more loot due to the Green not being able to flag Purple.

    Intrepid already said it, it is not going to be a game for everybody.
    There is no perfect miracle solution against ganking.

    We all are going to put money for the game, we all have our way to play a game, PvE, PvP or both.
    PvP is fine but ganking is a silly behaviour.
    So for our PvE only fellow, we can ask for scouts and NPC guards around a node with the ability to put them in jail with a time and/or money penalties (in game of course!).
  • LudulluLudullu Member, Alpha Two
    daveywavey wrote: »
    That's not a benefit to the Green. It's barely a benefit at all, to be honest, but if anything it's just a benefit to the next Green. Not the one that's just been killed.
    It's about risk and reward. A red drops a ton of stuff (potentially) so fighting him should have higher risks involved.
    • If a normal purple attacks the red - he's already flagged so he's at constant risk of being killed by others around him (mainly Red's friends, if there are any around). And the red himself will immediately attack the purple in order to prevent his own death penalties, cause it'd be logical to assume that the purple would be completely fine with attacking the red.
    • If BH attacks the red or just even runs towards him (assuming the red sees him as flagged) - it's the same situation as with the purple, but with a lower risk because no one else would see the BH as flagged. I'd personally like for the BH system to have similar detriments to the "caravan's attacker" one. If the BH engages a red and dies - he should receive some hit to his organization progression. This way the BH would have a heightened risk too.
    • If the green attacks the red - they'd lose more loot if they die. But that only applies IF they die. In other words, the green has the lowest risk out of all potential matchups (well, that is if the BH system has what I suggested or smth similar to it).

    And obviously the red has the highest risk of them all because he's red. And he has his own risk/reward situation. If he's trying to remove corruption through mobs, he'll most likely be farming an at least somewhat valuable location. And green that's there might've already been farming that location for some time and would have some juicy loots. So if that green attacks the red and the red wins - the red gets nice loot while being in a location that lets him remove his corruption the quickest (outside of dying obviously).

    I don't remember if I've written it here, but my stance of the time required to remove corruption through mobs is that of "2-3 mins worth of valuable mobs for 1 equally-lvled PK". So that second green kill would put you at around 6 minutes of farming. If you're strong enough to kill the green that decided to fight you (meaning that this green is most likely closer to a pvper than a pver) - you're probably strong enough to fight off a BH or two if they come to you before you remove your corruption. And obviously, if several greens attack you - it'd be no different from the OP's suggested system (unless there's OP classes that can take several people at once).

    Now we obviously don't know the details of corruption cleansing speeds or other values and we got 0 clue about the BH part of the system, but my personal feedback will be around the things I described, because those seem the fairest to me, all while preserving the ability to PK people at your own lvl and being able to avoid the punishment to some extent.
  • daveywaveydaveywavey Member, Alpha Two
    The Purple would surely have the lowest risk, as they have the least to lose. Half death penalties over full death penalties, and given that they're already Purple, they're likely to be at least reasonable at PvP.
    This link may help you: https://ashesofcreation.wiki/


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  • LudulluLudullu Member, Alpha Two
    daveywavey wrote: »
    The Purple would surely have the lowest risk, as they have the least to lose. Half death penalties over full death penalties, and given that they're already Purple, they're likely to be at least reasonable at PvP.
    Being reasonable doesn't mean that you can win against all. But being purple is almost as big of a "hit me" sign as being red.

    Though again, this whole discussion stands on the assumption that you'll be in a solo location where only one green might attack you. To me, as someone who has played with this system for years, that's almost an impossibility.

    The only situations where I could see that happening is the player becoming red on a completely random green for no real reason, or if the game is so dead that a location with valuable resources has only 1 player farming it and another player who came there to kill him.

    Because in all other situations it's any of these
    • you're in a party-based location and you'd be protected by your party and/or attacked by other full parties
    • you're in a location with valuable resources that either has several green people farming it and they'd all attack you for your loot or there's already pvp for those resources because people came to farm them prepared to fight for them
    • you're in a low lvl location to kill lowbies and you can't remove corruption through mobs because all of them are several minutes away from you and have parties farming them or high lvl greens who will kill you as a group
    • you're in a solo location that still has several people farming it and not just one dude that you can kill

    All of those situations are what I've seen in practice and not in theory. All of them barely ever had a moment where just one green was "griefing" one red. And that stuff happening never warranted the changes to the system because they were so damn rare.
  • tautautautau Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    I would hope that it would take at least an hour of grinding mobs to work off the same corruption as would be removed by a death.
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    edited September 2022
    daveywavey wrote: »
    That's not a benefit to the Green. It's barely a benefit at all, to be honest, but if anything it's just a benefit to the next Green. Not the one that's just been killed.
    It's a benefit to the Green because it incentivizes Reds to discontinue killing Greens. It also incentivizes Reds to not be near Greens. And the trade-off is that the Greens get normal death penalties if a Red kills them.
    If Greens want to flag purple against Reds, they can become Bounty Hunters.
    The one that just got killed might also be "the next Green".
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    daveywavey wrote: »
    If the Corruption system is designed to prevent the abuse of Green players, then it's not quite doing that here. Red players are actually incentivised into attacking Greens, cos they're going to get more loot due to the Green not being able to flag Purple.
    Corruption is designed to deter abuse; not prevent abuse.
  • Mag7spyMag7spy Member, Alpha Two
    edited September 2022
    tautau wrote: »
    I would hope that it would take at least an hour of grinding mobs to work off the same corruption as would be removed by a death.

    @NiKr I think people have to realize PvX doesn't mean a tiny bit a of pvp without variation and the game being mostly friendly PvE with insane consequences to pvp any player.

    People out here really hoping that you have waste hours and hours of time if you flag and pk someone.
  • LudulluLudullu Member, Alpha Two
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    NiKr I think people have to realize PvX doesn't mean a tiny bit a of pvp without variation and the game being mostly friendly PvE with insane consequences to pvp any player.

    People out here really hoping that you have waste hours and hours of time if you flag and pk someone.
    Eh, I gave tautau the benefit of the doubt and read that in a different light. As in:
    • A death removes 600 corruption.
    • A mob of your own lvl removes 10 corruption and you can kill one mob a minute

    What tautau didn't say is how much corruption you'd get from just one kill within your first few PKs. It could be 30-40 corruption and it would fit what I was suggesting. Or it could be 700 corruption and killing mobs would be pretty much an invalid way of cleansing yourself. At which point, I believe, most people would PK either in groups (of at least 2) or with a second account character being somewhere near to kill the Red one and get its loot.
  • Mag7spyMag7spy Member, Alpha Two
    NiKr wrote: »
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    NiKr I think people have to realize PvX doesn't mean a tiny bit a of pvp without variation and the game being mostly friendly PvE with insane consequences to pvp any player.

    People out here really hoping that you have waste hours and hours of time if you flag and pk someone.
    Eh, I gave tautau the benefit of the doubt and read that in a different light. As in:
    • A death removes 600 corruption.
    • A mob of your own lvl removes 10 corruption and you can kill one mob a minute

    Hmm i see what you are saying, i was looking at it as more of a one to one type thing where that might not actually be the case. Pks gain will be a lot lower than death while corrupted with that being a much higher value. Though its hard to say how things will work till they show it exactly.
  • Dizz1Dizz1 Member
    edited September 2022
    NiKr wrote: »
    Dizz wrote: »
    To me, corruption system is not made to make pvp fun, but BH is.
    It is made to make pvp fun. Except killing non-combatants is not pvp. And the corruption system is there to prevent the killing of non-combatants as much as possible. And you, as a red, gaining more corruption for killing more greens plays a fairly big role in that prevention.

    I respect your thoughts, I won't say they are wrong just saying what in my mind.

    I still don't think corruption system is a system designed to make pvp fun, it just a system try to prevent one sided pk happens too much, like you said kill a green player who don't fight back is not pvp it's just one sided pk, and what I suggested is just suggestions I can come up with to try to prevent player use the green role to abuse the system, you know it's not only red can be toxic green can be toxic too if you have any experience to be a red that never turn back to green or follow random reds and harass them to make them kill you to take advantages on them etc, I just saying it's good to have a system to prevent reds to kill greens as it can but green can also abuse the system easily.
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    Being able to access map hacks at any time sounds pretty much just fully cheating at that point.

    I won't consider it's cheating if make some system more convenient to reach will make game better. I not saying over doing some thing too convenient, just talking about balance.

    Like if sign up as a BH with just one click in seconds is too convenient, maybe make it like player can use pigeon mail to send the request to become a BH any where but player have to wait the request to be confirmed by BH guild in nearest node and the waiting time depends on the distance between the player and the nearest node.

    And there are too much information we don't know, so yeah just trying to give more pov to devs.
    A casual follower from TW.
  • CondemortCondemort Member, Alpha Two
    is perfect, just as it is.
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    NiKr wrote: »
    What tautau didn't say is how much corruption you'd get from just one kill within your first few PKs. It could be 30-40 corruption and it would fit what I was suggesting. Or it could be 700 corruption and killing mobs would be pretty much an invalid way of cleansing yourself. At which point, I believe, most people would PK either in groups (of at least 2) or with a second account character being somewhere near to kill the Red one and get its loot.
    Yep. And the Corrupted still has to deal with getting rid of the xp debt and other death penalties.
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