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Non-Combatant attacking Corrupted

hleVhleV Member
edited August 2022 in General Discussion
pvp_flagging_diagram.png

The thread was split and then merged back. The actual topic:

Non-Combatants can attack Corrupted and remain Non-Combatants, therefore if the Corrupted defend themselves and kill the aggressor Non-Combatant, their corruption score increases (as if killing an innocent player).
How do you feel about adding this additional penalty for something that is not technically griefing?

Apparently, Greens can freely attack a Red and remain green? So if Greens are out to get him and Red fights back and kills a Green, their corruption is increased even more? Isn't that nonsensical?

EDIT: The issue is that it's more beneficial to attack Red as a Green than as a Purple, because then the Red might hesitate to fight back and gain more corruption. Red should be allowed to defend themselves without repercussions.

EDIT2: The thread was based on misinformation, that people can willingly stay flagged up (Purple/Combatant) 24/7. Essentially scenarios where Red are being attacked by Purples are going to be non-existent, because everyone is Green by default and Purple status is very temporary for when you PvP a non-Red player. The system just wants you to die and discourages fighting back when you go Red.
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Comments

  • tautautautau Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Nope, not nonsense at all. If someone decides to go red, then they are knowingly taking on that risk - players are intended to attack him or her. If the red wins, their corruption penalties are increased. If the red loses, they die.

    Going red is a bad idea.
  • hleVhleV Member
    But they're not trying to arrest you, they're after your life. How is being punished for defending your life not nonsensical?
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Going red is a bad idea.
  • palabanapalabana Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Becoming Red is the punishment for murdering a Green. If they're not Purple, you murdered them. If they're Purple, you killed them in a fair duel. On the side of the lore, a Red is essentially seen as a Corrupted Monster and you are treated as such in the game.
  • SongRuneSongRune Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    edited August 2022
    hleV wrote: »
    But they're not trying to arrest you, they're after your life. How is being punished for defending your life not nonsensical?

    If you're looking for RP/realism: In some worlds, murderers (the requirement to become red) receive the death penalty.
  • hleVhleV Member
    edited August 2022
    Being red apparently means you're a griefer and the game wants you to die and possibly lose gear.
    It adds nothing to the game if Reds are punished for fighting back. It's abusable even - Greens harass someone, get killed, gank him back.
    Greens should turn Purple if they engage in PvP. If you're gonna PvP someone, they shouldn't be punished for fighting back. Isn't the whole system against griefing Greens? Why are Greens allowed to grief, then?
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack, Alpha Two
    hleV wrote: »
    But they're not trying to arrest you, they're after your life. How is being punished for defending your life not nonsensical?

    Keep in mind, you respawn. It's not like there is perma-death or anything.

    Really, death isnt death, it is in accumulation of small penalties.
  • SigtyrSigtyr Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    I guess my question is: why would it ever make sense to attack a red as a purple vs dropping off your resources and doing it as a green? Should make you purple if you are not carrying any droppable resources imo.
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    edited August 2022
    Greens turn purple if they attack a purple PvPer. That is a fair fight.
    Purple killing green is not a fair fight. There are consequences for that.
  • hleVhleV Member
    edited August 2022
    Noaani wrote: »
    hleV wrote: »
    But they're not trying to arrest you, they're after your life. How is being punished for defending your life not nonsensical?

    Keep in mind, you respawn. It's not like there is perma-death or anything.

    Really, death isnt death, it is in accumulation of small penalties.
    What if I don't want to die and respawn? I want to fight/wear off the corruption that I got for murdering a guy that was mean to me or griefed me in other ways? Somehow I can still fight back against anyone except Greens, against Greens I'm supposed to just bend over and let them have me and possibly my gear piece. Surely you can see the issue here? Greens get ridiculous benefits here.
    Sigtyr wrote: »
    I guess my question is: why would it ever make sense to attack a red as a purple vs dropping off your resources and doing it as a green?
    Exactly, it's abusable. Attacking a player, regardless if they're red or not, should make you Purple.
  • George_BlackGeorge_Black Member, Intrepid Pack, Alpha Two
    edited August 2022
    hleV wrote: »
    pvp_flagging_diagram.png

    Apparently, Greens can freely attack a Red and remain green? So if Greens are out to get him and Red fights back and kills a Green, their corruption is increased even more? Isn't that nonsensical?

    You dont like it? Why? That is the risk that you take in order to kill a peaceful player. You will be hunt down as you try to remove your corruption.

    This system so far is a copy paste from another mmo back in 2003 and worked perfect. Nobody was complaining. Its aim is to prevent people from going on killing sprees of peaceful players.

    I for one dont want or need any changes to it to accomodate your personal logic of how it should work.
  • hleVhleV Member
    edited August 2022
    You dont like it? Why? That is the risk thst you take in order to kill a peaceful player. You will be hunt down as you try to remove your corruption.

    I'm fine with all of that, I get hunted down and I get increased death penalty because I'm red. The issue is that if Purples are hunting me, I can still fight back and try to recover from corruption without dying, but if Greens are hunting me, I can't.

    Unless there are good ways to escape, but I doubt?
  • tautautautau Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    If you don't like it, don't go red. Really quite simple.
  • George_BlackGeorge_Black Member, Intrepid Pack, Alpha Two
    If you are not up to the task to escape dont go red. Yes, peaceful players should be able to attack you, kill you and take the items you will drop while corrupted.

    Players turn purple if the hit a green player. Why would there be any purple players near you, the red?

    Dont you see how meaningless the system would be if green players became purple for touching you, the red?
    Dont think of it in terms of 1v1. There will be other players around, groups of players. Perhaps you the red will be in a group.
    Green players shouldnt become purple for attacking you, the red. That would make them fair game for your group, or the bystanders.
    You did the murder, you need to pay.

    If you are red and somebody heals you they become purple for assistint you. If the green players target that healer and attack they become purple. Then kill them all you want without gaining more corruption.

    People should examine the systems as part of the big picture. Some clown goes on and on about how "nobody will ever go red" and for 10 pages they keep defending how it wont work.
    You here say greens should turn purple for touching a red.


    Think of it a bit better. This game wont be a gankfest. People will need good reasons to kill a peaceful player. It's all about group play and serious goals.
  • bloodprophetbloodprophet Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    The game system will treat reds as monsters.
    Should Greens turn Purple every time they attack a random mob?
    Most people never listen. They are just waiting on you to quit making noise so they can.
  • WarthWarth Member, Alpha Two
    The game system will treat reds as monsters.
    Should Greens turn Purple every time they attack a random mob?

    Just following on that line of thought:
    Why should a monster get additional corruption? Monsters don't get corruption.

    While i agree with the message, i do think the argument/comparison is flawed.
  • WarthWarth Member, Alpha Two
    hleV wrote: »
    You dont like it? Why? That is the risk thst you take in order to kill a peaceful player. You will be hunt down as you try to remove your corruption.

    I'm fine with all of that, I get hunted down and I get increased death penalty because I'm red. The issue is that if Purples are hunting me, I can still fight back and try to recover from corruption without dying, but if Greens are hunting me, I can't.

    Unless there are good ways to escape, but I doubt?

    Nobody will hunt you as a purple. There is only greens who will whip you till you are dead.

    Killing a green for pety reason just isn't a good idea in the current system.

    If you want to hurt/annoy a green, then just keep throwing cc's, and pumch them down to 25-33% constantly without killing them.

    If you want their ressources, then kill them, loot them and get killed by a friend afterwards who picks up the stuff you drop
  • WarthWarth Member, Alpha Two
    With this being said, Dteven himself said that he isn't convinced by the mechanic you are describing and that it will be tested/evaluated in A2.
  • SigtyrSigtyr Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    I was going to go on a rant here about how exploitable this scenario is for non combatants and how people complain about pvp griefing while completely ignoring the opposite side of the coin, but then I remembered that I am complete rat menace in pvp and nothing short of a group of ten people will be able to hold me down long enough to kill me if I really want to escape so I’ll let the greens have this one lmao.
  • ScarbeusScarbeus Member, Alpha Two
    PvP is also sometimes a fight or flight situation. As a Green and you don't want to fight you might have to run, as a Red with a group of Greens after you maybe you might want to run as well.
    r7ldqg4wh0yj.gif
  • WarthWarth Member, Alpha Two
    Scarbeus wrote: »
    PvP is also sometimes a fight or flight situation. As a Green and you don't want to fight you might have to run, as a Red with a group of Greens after you maybe you might want to run as well.

    The big loser from this is the Bounty Hunter imo. With greens being very free in attacking the red, they will inevitably receive less of the action, which is sad considering thats their entire purpose/gameplay mechanic.

    I dont like this sysrem for the sole reason, that it takes away from the Bounty Hunter system. Imo, the overwhelming amount of dead corrupted should happen through BHs.
  • SongRuneSongRune Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Warth wrote: »
    Scarbeus wrote: »
    PvP is also sometimes a fight or flight situation. As a Green and you don't want to fight you might have to run, as a Red with a group of Greens after you maybe you might want to run as well.

    The big loser from this is the Bounty Hunter imo. With greens being very free in attacking the red, they will inevitably receive less of the action, which is sad considering thats their entire purpose/gameplay mechanic.

    I dont like this sysrem for the sole reason, that it takes away from the Bounty Hunter system. Imo, the overwhelming amount of dead corrupted should happen through BHs.

    Not really. Greens still die. Bounty hunters are not just "players who turn on bounty hunting mode", they're the TYPE of player that turns on bounty hunting mode. Not all greens are gonna go after every red they see, risk XP debt, material drops, etc. If they're in the area and prepared to specifically hunt reds, they're a bounty hunter type of person whether they flagged the quest or not.

    This isn't "bounty hunters lose out on the action", it's just "a different bounty hunter got there first".
  • VeeshanVeeshan Member, Alpha Two
    edited August 2022
    Pretty sure steven mention somewhere awhile ago u wont get corrupted penalty for defending yourself as a red.

    imo though
    If a red player gets attacked by a green player first there shouldnt be a further penalty for the red player
    If a red player attacks a green player who then fights back i also dont think there should be a further penalty for the red players since that would be the same as to 2 purple players going at it so it therefor consenial pvp
    if a red player kills a green player that doesnt fight back that would then increase corruption further

    Corruption system there to punish non consential pvp so if 2 players no matter if there purple red or green are activly attacking each other it should offer corruption penalty to the winner.

    However green players attacked red players should remain green because otherwise ull have a red player act as bait for a greenie to hit to go purple then other purple will kill him. I feel they might need a fourth colour tbh like yellow that basicly shows that there considered green still but there wont be a penalty for red players who attack them cause they hit them and so on.

    If somone accidently goes red or out of anger of KSing their mobs and what not they should be further compounded to additional corruption penalty just for defending themselfs.

  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    It's not possible to accidentally go red, though.
  • CROW3CROW3 Member, Alpha Two
    Corruption is a punishment, it’s fair overall as a system, but it’s going to feel unfair to a Red that doesn’t understand the intent of corruption.

    So, yes - greens may hunt you.
    No, there’s not a lot of sympathy for Reds.
    AoC+Dwarf+750v3.png
  • ClintHardwoodClintHardwood Member, Alpha Two
    edited August 2022
    hleV wrote: »
    Being red apparently means you're a griefer and the game wants you to die and possibly lose gear.
    It adds nothing to the game if Reds are punished for fighting back. It's abusable even - Greens harass someone, get killed, gank him back.
    Greens should turn Purple if they engage in PvP. If you're gonna PvP someone, they shouldn't be punished for fighting back. Isn't the whole system against griefing Greens? Why are Greens allowed to grief, then?

    The point is corrupteds griefed first, so they're free game. That being said, I do think greens should have to combat flag to attack a corrupted.
  • George_BlackGeorge_Black Member, Intrepid Pack, Alpha Two
    Veeshan wrote: »
    Pretty sure steven mention somewhere awhile ago u wont get corrupted penalty for defending yourself as a red.

    imo though
    If a red player gets attacked by a green player first there shouldnt be a further penalty for the red player
    If a red player attacks a green player who then fights back i also dont think there should be a further penalty for the red players since that would be the same as to 2 purple players going at it so it therefor consenial pvp
    if a red player kills a green player that doesnt fight back that would then increase corruption further

    Corruption system there to punish non consential pvp so if 2 players no matter if there purple red or green are activly attacking each other it should offer corruption penalty to the winner.

    However green players attacked red players should remain green because otherwise ull have a red player act as bait for a greenie to hit to go purple then other purple will kill him. I feel they might need a fourth colour tbh like yellow that basicly shows that there considered green still but there wont be a penalty for red players who attack them cause they hit them and so on.

    If somone accidently goes red or out of anger of KSing their mobs and what not they should be further compounded to additional corruption penalty just for defending themselfs.

    He never said you can defend yourself as a red against greens and not get corruption.
    He said vs a bounty hunter you dont get more corruption. (And purples ofc..)
  • SengardenSengarden Member, Alpha Two
    @hleV
    In any "open war" environment, you have designations of people. Largely, we'll split them into enlisted, and civilians. If two enlisted fighters attack each other, no problem. Those are the rules of combat. If a civilian kills another civilian, that's murder. If an enlisted person attacks a civilian, that's also murder.

    What do we do with murderers when we find them guilty? Well, in most places nowadays, we arrest them if they don't fight back and put them in jail, potentially for the rest of their lives. You don't want your character deleted, or unavailable for several in-game years (probably two months each) do you? No? So then, surrendering to "the law", which isn't even really an established concept in this case, is out of the question.

    What's the only other option for dealing with murderers? Execution. Execution, in this case, is a legally and socially acceptable punishment for murder, because there's no other equivalent option available. It does not constitute an act of "combat". If a civilian does their civic duty and puts a murderer six feet under, does that make them an enlisted combatant in an open war environment? No. It makes them a badass civilian. And it makes the dead murderer rethink their life choices when they respawn.
  • WarthWarth Member, Alpha Two
    SongRune wrote: »
    Warth wrote: »
    Scarbeus wrote: »
    PvP is also sometimes a fight or flight situation. As a Green and you don't want to fight you might have to run, as a Red with a group of Greens after you maybe you might want to run as well.

    The big loser from this is the Bounty Hunter imo. With greens being very free in attacking the red, they will inevitably receive less of the action, which is sad considering thats their entire purpose/gameplay mechanic.

    I dont like this sysrem for the sole reason, that it takes away from the Bounty Hunter system. Imo, the overwhelming amount of dead corrupted should happen through BHs.

    Not really. Greens still die. Bounty hunters are not just "players who turn on bounty hunting mode", they're the TYPE of player that turns on bounty hunting mode. Not all greens are gonna go after every red they see, risk XP debt, material drops, etc. If they're in the area and prepared to specifically hunt reds, they're a bounty hunter type of person whether they flagged the quest or not.

    This isn't "bounty hunters lose out on the action", it's just "a different bounty hunter got there first".

    If the red is actively fleeing, then all greens can attack him at will, as he clearly isnt interested in accumulating any more corruption. He cant really fight back anyway, as that would just throw him deeper into corruption. A green barely has any threat of dying to somebody that already red. The clowns, that just want to go on a murder spree wont remain in Ashes very long, seeing how they will have lost most of their Gear, their Level and their combat strength within a short period of time.

    Most of the reds are those, that will go red occasionally, when they think the reward will outweigh the risk.
    Those kill a player, loot the player (or mule) and then try to work of the corruption in order to actually obtain the reward from what they just did. Those will never fight back and kill a green as doubling, tripling, quadrupling the corruption you have to work off will be a never ending cycle.
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack, Alpha Two
    hleV wrote: »
    Noaani wrote: »
    hleV wrote: »
    But they're not trying to arrest you, they're after your life. How is being punished for defending your life not nonsensical?

    Keep in mind, you respawn. It's not like there is perma-death or anything.

    Really, death isnt death, it is in accumulation of small penalties.
    What if I don't want to die and respawn? I want to fight/wear off the corruption that I got for murdering a guy that was mean to me or griefed me in other ways? Somehow I can still fight back against anyone except Greens, against Greens I'm supposed to just bend over and let them have me and possibly my gear piece. Surely you can see the issue here? Greens get ridiculous benefits here.
    If someone griefed you "in other ways", and you want to get back at them, get back at them "in other ways".

    Killing someone and gaining corruption is a very specific act in Ashes. It cant be done on accident, it has to be an actual decision a ayer makes. If you dont want to deal with the penalties of corruption (which includes greens being able to attack you without flagging), dont gain corruption.

    As such, no one can complain about the penalties, because you literally have to buy in to it.
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