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To get the quickest updates regarding Alpha Two, connect your Discord and Intrepid accounts here.
IMPORTANCE OF AMMUNITION IN THE RANGER CLASS ARCHETI
Cjotas
Member
Good afternoon, I open this discussion to be able to talk about the ammunition in the ranger class and why it is important that it be implemented, giving importance at the same time to the class of gathering wood and other minerals to be able to create ammunition of variable qualities with special effects for ranger class attacks, giving effects or boost to elemental skills, etc.
That they can be crafted and traded in the game market and depending on time in some regions to find quality materials for their creation.
In my opinion, I understand what many indicate that it is something that limits the ranger a lot, the detail is that I understand that they indicate all those disadvantages because they compare them with the other classes, without taking into account that the rangers and other classes of damage to distance have a style and soul different from the others, this is a class of physical or elemental damage of mechanical effort of the character's body causing damage at a distance in which he uses a bow of any possible material that is available or there may even be weapons of fire too, its not like magic which can be instant or anything like that, ammo would add some interesting complexity not to mention the added effects that can be depending on what ammo is used.
That they can be crafted and traded in the game market and depending on time in some regions to find quality materials for their creation.
In my opinion, I understand what many indicate that it is something that limits the ranger a lot, the detail is that I understand that they indicate all those disadvantages because they compare them with the other classes, without taking into account that the rangers and other classes of damage to distance have a style and soul different from the others, this is a class of physical or elemental damage of mechanical effort of the character's body causing damage at a distance in which he uses a bow of any possible material that is available or there may even be weapons of fire too, its not like magic which can be instant or anything like that, ammo would add some interesting complexity not to mention the added effects that can be depending on what ammo is used.
0
Comments
Have a Quiver that prevents the durability on the BOW falling when you use it, and treat that as 'Ammunition'.
You can do without it, that way, but anyone interested enough would almost always have a reason to use it.
This would also help for those long-term explorer rangers who want to be out in the world for days or weeks at a time, delaying their need to return to 'civilization'.
Other than that, I also agree that I have no problem with 'quiver that causes special arrow effect'. Just treat the Quiver's durability as the Ammo.
Running out of them leaves you basically useless if most of your skills require you to use a bow to activate them. You then have to fight using melee weapons for which you're not entirely proficient with, nor have the option to use skills for.
Immersive in RP? Yes. Does it feel good to play? No.
Is it immersive? Yes
Is it terrible gameplay? Also yes.
The importance of gameplay quality should take precedence in this. They can always add quivers that modify your "arrow", but having to keep track of an arrow count is a pointless and dated mechanic.
I don't mind having optional buffs for equipping a quiver (that degrades over time, like all gear) which can modify my basic attacks and maybe even some abilities.
TL;DR: the cons of needing arrows to shoot a bow in an MMORPG are more than the pros, therefore not requiring arrows is the right decision.
Both should have limits and not be eternally full.
Keeping track of arrows and not running out is part of paying attention and not mindlessly face rolling the keyboard.
So mages should need to go back to town to refill mana?
That's a bit off the mark, I'd say. Since the most arrows used would be the basic attack, it would be more comparable to say that wands and magic staves should have a limited number of ranged charges, or a melee fighter should use up a stamina resource every swing. Which I don't see leading to fun gameplay.
Also:
"Yo, Cap! Why'd you stop DPSing the boss?!"
"I'm out of arrows."
"What? How are you out of arrows? Didn't you bring enough stacks?"
"I brought as many as I could hold. Between the mobs and the gank squads I'm lucky to have lasted this long...
"I'm gonna go melee."
"You're not specced for melee are you?"
"Hell naw." *insert Leroy meme*
Special ammo sure. Things like traps and special arrows would be great. Special arrows would be things like explosive AOE ammo, elemental ammo etc. That could be a way for crafters to supply armies for a siege.
and imo, ammunition management was a "not good" thing.
Now, the ammunations are also part of the choices for fight. azherae gave a way (quiver giving "special arrow effects" )
but here is another : you have unlimited standart arrows.
Crafters can do some "special arrow" (like "ice arrow" "fire arrow" etc) Being consumable. you use it, and for a defined duration, you have their bonus. For most thing don't care, but because you will fight this raid boss fire elemental, you will take one or two of those consumable to change your arrow to ice arrow.
It is not the "arrow management" but remains the "ammunation choices depending on situation"
Some mentioned modifying attack attributes with custom ammo. While that's a good idea in general (that's how ammo works in Eve Online. Different guns use different ammos with different characteristics & attributes), in Ashes I feel it might overlap with the augments system and make things overly complicated.
e.g. I roll a ranger + mage -> scion. I'd expect the major selling point of this class is being able to enhance arrows with elemental damage through mage-augments. Custom elemental arrows could make this class redundant.
And what about ranger + rogue? Should poisonous arrows be a rogue augment or another custom ammo?
There's also the case of some primary ranger skills like Flame line. So if I can have custom ammo, why shouldn't I be able to, say, dip all my arrows in flamable oils and make all my basic attack shots "flame line" shots now?
And further more, custom ammo for just a single class could make things hard to balance IMO. Let's say in addition to elements, you differentiate arrows by their base materials. So on one side we have the average poor advanturers who shoot iron~steel arrows, and on the other side some hyper-rich player shooting ultra-expensive adamantium arrows being absolutely OP in pvp.
How would you go about balancing that?
a. Leave it be, as throwing-(in-game)-money-at-the-problem should totally be a thing?
b. Nerf the expensive adamantium arrows? but then what's the point for their existence now? (since they ARE expensive and should provide value that makes them worth the price)
c. Nerf ranger's base damage? But then what about those poor folks on iron ammo?
d. Remove adamantium arrows entirely? So now you can craft arrows out of iron, steel, mithril but somehow not adamantium (unless you have a good lore reason)? Talk about immersion now.
I mean sure for crafters & gatherers ammos mean another income source, but for the players using it, if a mechanism does not provide balanced, meaningful, interesting gameplay, then IMO it's better for the game's sake to just leave it out.
Yup may be quiver offhands could be a thing ...
As a new character, I see myself searching to pick arrows from the ground after the battles
And darts, throwing knives, throwing axes too... why would throwing axes return to the thrower safely?
I want it paired with a slower attack speed too, the bow shots seemed just a little too quick.
I feel like the Ranger I saw has absolutely nothing to manage, at all. No resources (except health) and I feel that arrows should absolutely be a thing. Everyone can use ranged weapons, but have classes such as rangers have some flavour in which they can create arrows from stuff around them. Everyone can buy the standard arrow from NPCs and all. But rangers can make arrows based on the stuff around them, and potentially sell them to say a fighter that uses bows.
Same with magic type classes, some of the more ritual type spells will definitely benefit from components.
Personally I would rather just have quivers act as improvements to shots fired (ex: quiver of flaming arrows, quiver of lightning arrows, etc) with small boosts than as a needed money/time sink.
This is exactly what Wolcen did, and it worked quite well. I’d rather crafting acumen go towards quivers than ammo, as managing ammo isn’t gameplay, it’s just tedious for the sake of being tedious.
99 rangers rain hell upon an enemy node. No one survives the 24 hours of onslaught. No one survies the 48 hour onslaught. With a 280 person guild, the hell continues for a week straight. . .
Now ammo is required. They rain death for an hour then run off to resupply. Maybe another 66 people are required to keep them supplied. This is a higher effort Ranger Grief now, with fragile logistics and higher player requirement. This stretches the Fun Project of Arrow Hell thin.
Constraints necessitate and promote higher forms of organization, and weaken exploits.
Ammo would complicate any Fun that is based on Endurance and Death.
No.
Max ammo someone can carry can be anywhere from 1 to 9999999999999.
Unlimited ammo can be anywhere from 1 - 100% power vs special/ limited ammo.
Professions can be more or less essential.
Logistics can be more or less essential.
Higher organization can be more or less essential.
Not everyone wants to play a twitchy shooter and not everyone wants to play a MOBA and not everyone wants to do professions and not everyone wants to handle organization; but someone does.
(same way Path of exile does it)
No son necesarias!