Like many things, once Alpha Two has been released and the game is in all of our hands, it will be easier to form opinions on these things! You never know which opinions may change once actually playing the game.
If we receive overwhelming feedback during testing that players want ammunition, then we will of course make the consideration!
i dont see how you could go back and add ammunition after having infinite ammo in the first place. You would be removing a convenience that is in quite a few games these days. If you want to decide between the two you would need to have limited ammo first.
So you're basically confirming that we're limiting the burden of spending money and inventory space for the benefit of using the basic attack on a single archetype. Got it.
Hey, anyone wanna play the single archetype that has to pay in-game currency to actually hit anything?
Also to answer the question: have I played a hunter before? Yes. Yes I have. Even in WoW. And guess what? WoW figured that needing to buy ammo was so dumb that they removed it from the game.
2
Options
RepkarMember, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Good afternoon, I open this discussion to be able to talk about the ammunition in the ranger class and why it is important that it be implemented, giving importance at the same time to the class of gathering wood and other minerals to be able to create ammunition of variable qualities with special effects for ranger class attacks, giving effects or boost to elemental skills, etc.
That they can be crafted and traded in the game market and depending on time in some regions to find quality materials for their creation.
In my opinion, I understand what many indicate that it is something that limits the ranger a lot, the detail is that I understand that they indicate all those disadvantages because they compare them with the other classes, without taking into account that the rangers and other classes of damage to distance have a style and soul different from the others, this is a class of physical or elemental damage of mechanical effort of the character's body causing damage at a distance in which he uses a bow of any possible material that is available or there may even be weapons of fire too, its not like magic which can be instant or anything like that, ammo would add some interesting complexity not to mention the added effects that can be depending on what ammo is used.
I totally agree with this, I personally love gathering resources to make my own ammunition in New World right now, a caveat however, I don't think you should completely be hindered if you have run out of arrows. What New World did is simply nerf your damage a bit if you have no ammunition, other than that I completely agree I like the idea and implementation of ammunition.
So you're basically confirming that we're limiting the burden of spending money and inventory space for the benefit of using the basic attack on a single archetype. Got it.
Hey, anyone wanna play the single archetype that has to pay in-game currency to actually hit anything?
Also to answer the question: have I played a hunter before? Yes. Yes I have. Even in WoW. And guess what? WoW figured that needing to buy ammo was so dumb that they removed it from the game.
I gave several examples of how things could be done a different way so that arrows actually mattered, time and mats were cut way down for crafting, inventory space wasn't used and it could have been done easily by the hunter so no money was needed either. You failed to address any of that.
You can't even be bothered to actually contribute to possible solutions. Instead you make baseless arguments like "WoW figured that needing to buy ammo was so dumb that they removed it from the game." Go ahead and link ANYTHING showing that's why it was removed. Also, keep making ignorant statements, I enjoy it.
Since you admit to playing a hunter in WoW I have to ask, why did you make these ridiculous arguments about hunters when you knew full well that what you were saying was intentionally misleading?
1) "Do you wanna be going back to town every three or four pulls of mobs, because you ran out of whatever ressources your archetype uses?"
2) "prevents you from going out and exploring since you might just run out of your basic-attack-ressource, and will just get stomped by mobs once you can't fight back."
I do need to say I found the 2nd statement amusing. "Prevents" and "might", really? It's commendable you can face each day knowing all the "mights" that could happen.
Why would someone make an argument and knowingly slant the information so far out of proportion? Says a lot about ones character. It also says a lot when you can't even come up with a reasonable argument. Especially after I addressed everything you said and all you can do is regurgitate the same useless dribble you vomited before. Congrats on being the smooth brain warrior of this thread. Clearly you wanted that title.
2) "prevents you from going out and exploring since you might just run out of your basic-attack-ressource, and will just get stomped by mobs once you can't fight back."
I do need to say I found the 2nd statement amusing. "Prevents" and "might", really? It's commendable you can face each day knowing all the "mights" that could happen.
So here are a few things to think about exploration relative to this thread that may be relevant:
1. Personal inventory space is going to be limited early on, with the main inventory multiplier being a mule. We don’t have any idea (as of yet) what approximate level or economic status a toon will be when they can start purchasing a full compliment of roomy bags, so it could be a while. https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Bag_space
2. Travel speed. There is no fast travel. There are no hearthstones. There are no flight paths. No ‘need arrows, need summ in 2 min.’ You’re out of ammo you cannot use your bow until you: find a vendor (which may not exist in your current node), find a crafter (who has the processed mats necessary to make you arrows - and possibly a portable station to craft anything in the first place), craft the arrows yourself (given you have the processed mats and some method to craft), or equip a sword and run.
3. Disadvantage in world pvp. Being out exploring is a dangerous business, especially when you’re out of arrows and are the only class who’s literal ability to attack depends on a non-rechargeable resource. That seems like a non-starter inequality to me.
So - it’s a valid point that ammo could be a constraint on exploration, particularly targeting Rangers - which is even more ironic considering they are the quintessential class for exploring the wilderness.
I already addressed in my original post.
1) Arrows go in quivers not bags. Quivers have their own slots. Multiple slots.
2) Craft your own. Small amount of resources lets you craft a large supply of arrows via a mechanical quiver
or a specialized item you carry with you.
3) Harry potter bag. Normal size but holds a ridiculous amount. Not infinite, just ridiculous.
The idea is that higher tier crafted arrows are what you want but they aren't op. The low end arrow is very easy to craft in bulk, store in your quiver by the hundreds, possibly thousands, and are made with easy to find, readily available items - rocks, flint, sticks, feathers, whatever. It takes seconds to make and don't think about again for days, possibly weeks depending on personal playstyle, available time, amount of combat engagement, etc. These arrows do 90% of the best arrows damage.
Top tier arrows fit far smaller quantities, may require a workbench and/or a "fletchers kit" that takes 1 slot (not in normal bag inventory), using same mats but a larger quantity.
Specialty arrows like fire, ice, poison, stun, trap, net, etc. require special mats, but again nothing thats too difficult to come across. Craft same as top tier arrows although it would take a bit longer and the quiver wouldn't hold as many as top tier.
If anyone manages to run out of arrows in the field it shouldn't take more than a minute or two find, craft and be ready to use a large quantity of lower tier arrows. Being stranded in the field wouldn't happen. Worst case scenario is you are doing only 90% of your maximum potential.
Personally I am in favor of a much harder, more rigorous version of arrow crafting with its own small crafting tree but like I said before, finding the middle ground.
Let’s set aside the special arrows case, asi think we can brainstorm some interesting ideas there.
For normal ammunition, if you can hold thousands, can craft in bulk, and make them from any number of resources around your feet, at what point do they become so trivial that they aren’t worth the systems established to manage them?
That's sort of the point. It's trivial. For the people that don't want to bother with it it would be nothing more than a slight inconvenience at worst. Doesn't slow you down, doesn't take up space, almost never run out and still do solid damage.
For the people that are more into it they would spend the time to gather more mats and carry fewer so they could use the slightly stronger arrows. Ultimately I would favor decently stronger arrows with more effort to craft but at that point people would shit on rangers not using the better arrows and that wasn't the goal. Pretty much anything short of a raid the bulk arrows would do just fine.
On the other side, maybe when a node hits a certain level and you are linked to it there would be an armory you could grab as many arrows as you want for free.
One of the "benefits" a ranger could have was if you add elemental weaknesses.
A melee user might need to rely on several sets of weapons. Or even buy something like "holy water" to temporarily add holy damage, which turns out to be quite good for Undead and the like.
A ranger could just switch ammunition. And do it on the fly, in combat even.
Magical classes would have to spread out their talents/skills a bit.
And now, all of a sudden you've added not only a reason to have arrows. (And I cannot overstate how awesome being able to create your own arrows is as a ranger baseline skill.)
But you've also added some complexity to combat itself
And everyone would have to prepare to go somewhere ahead of time. As it should be.
so, should casters also need components for spells? or summoners
If they went the route of making ammo required then I would say yes for certain spells. It's not hard to believe that it would be done considering we already have abilities confirmed to require the correct weapon equipped to use them.
All these ideas for limited ammo are trash, all these special effects can be applied through finding gear or using a quiver off hand item slot.
There won't be any good reason for needing to make or buy arrows in this game. If a game has that resource management designed in it, that is most likely for a reason around the content the player does. This is a mmorpg, it does not work the same way other other games do.
This is a game it is not bound by realistic effects, when you are shooting 10 arrows in less than 10 seconds for a few mobs, and you multiple that over a arrow that is ridicules amounts. If you were shooting a arrow a second over 60 minutes and assumed there was a half downtime where you don't shoot arrows for half of that time or other reasons that is over 1800 (edit) arrows you have shot....
Effectively you are suggesting an idea not even based off the actual design of the game because you want something for actually no reason to make it more realistic.
This is the issue when everyone can give ideas, they don't think or care about the design of the game...They just want their idea.
Realism is a good thing in some aspects, but in this case I don't appreciate it. After all, this is a game, and not everything needs to be realistically designed. This is one of those points. It may be a minor thing, but it's noticeable and annoying, at least for me. Not everything in a game has to end up in work.
All these ideas for limited ammo are trash, all these special effects can be applied through finding gear or using a quiver off hand item slot.
There won't be any good reason for needing to make or buy arrows in this game. If a game has that resource management designed in it, that is most likely for a reason around the content the player does. This is a mmorpg, it does not work the same way other other games do.
This is a game it is not bound by realistic effects, when you are shooting 10 arrows in less than 10 seconds for a few mobs, and you multiple that over a arrow that is ridicules amounts. If you were shooting a arrow a second over 60 minutes and assumed there was a half downtime where you don't shoot arrows for half of that time or other reasons that is over 100000 arrows you have shot....
Effectively you are suggesting an idea not even based off the actual design of the game because you want something for actually no reason to make it more realistic.
This is the issue when everyone can give ideas, they don't think or care about the design of the game...They just want their idea.
Finally! Someone said something I can agree with. I have to do some code breaking to fully understand some of that gibberish but I'll give it a shot.
You said, "This is the issue when everyone can give ideas, they don't think or care about the design of the game...They just want their idea."
LOL!! We'll come back to that.
So starting at the top you said, "all these special effects can be applied through finding gear or using a quiver off hand item slot."
1) like I said, we agree. Put quivers in the game. What do quivers hold? I wonder.....
2) When you say "all these special effects" what are you referring to? Different effects arrows would have? Then why would the effect come from gear and not the arrows?
3) Why would a quiver be in an off hand slot for a weapon that requires 2 hands?
You followed it up with by going deep on this one, "There won't be any good reason for needing to make or buy arrows in this game. If a game has that resource management designed in it, that is most likely for a reason around the content the player does. This is a mmorpg, it does not work the same way other other games do."
1) Where to start? Well, I don't know what you mean by "won't be any good reason for needing to make or buy arrows in this game." That sounds dangerously like an opinion and you know what opinions are like, right?
2) What facts are you basing this on? What inside information to the design of this game do you have? How do you know what reasons they are making their decisions from? I mean that's a pretty ignorant claim unless you can back it up.
3) You are talking about the content designed around the player. So how does a bow deal damage? They shoot physical projectiles to do melee damage at range. This isn't magic. If you have another way to explain physical damage at range I'm all ears.
Lets explore the magic side for a second. Would you champion the idea that rangers should operate off mana? If so that gets rid of the physical damage component and would explain a lot. However you're left explaining the different between a mage and ranger since both would use the same resource and do damage based off said resource. So what's the difference? A mage uses a staff and ranger uses a.....bent staff?
4) You are correct that this is a mmorpg. What I can't figure out is how you are linking a bow not needing arrows to the game being a mmorpg. Are you implying that mmorpgs aren't allowed to have weapons that require ammo? Or perhaps mmorpgs that have weapons that require ammo don't work? Also, are you saying mages and healers in a single player game can't work similarly to a mages and healers in a mmorpg? What about melee like warriors or rogues? If they can why can't a bowman?
This turd nugget was the hardest to understand. Somewhat because I couldn't catch the meaning but mainly because I was having a hard time fathoming your math. "This is a game it is not bound by realistic effects, when you are shooting 10 arrows in less than 10 seconds for a few mobs, and you multiple that over a arrow that is ridicules amounts. If you were shooting a arrow a second over 60 minutes and assumed there was a half downtime where you don't shoot arrows for half of that time or other reasons that is over 100000 arrows you have shot...."
1) You are correct this game isn't bound by realistic effects. A lot of games aren't. Good games and good game design are bound by logic, rules and common sense. Especially rpgs where immersion is a main feature. If those tenets of game design aren't followed then something else, such as lore, needs to be able to explain why it doesn't work and it if can't then you have a glaring problem.
2) 10 arrows, 10 seconds, multiple that over a arrow....? Even my inner caveman is going "WTF?"
3) Arrow a second is 60 arrows a minute multiplied by 60 minutes. 60X60= 3600 arrows an hour with no down time. I have absolutely no idea where you got 100,000 arrows shot. Also I have absolutely no idea what you are trying to convey here. Is this why you are against ammo in the game? It confuses you? Math scares you?
Then there's this.....thing. "Effectively you are suggesting an idea not even based off the actual design of the game because you want something for actually no reason to make it more realistic."
1) Tell us more about the design of the game and how you know. Better yet, tell us anything about the design of the game. Also how do you know my idea isn't based off the design of the game? Because you don't like it that means it falls outside the parameters of the games design? LOL. Please, keep dropping these pearls of wisdom.
2) Paraphrasing here - "because you want something for no reason other than to make it realistic"
Do you want to see your guy swing an axe when cutting down a tree? A difference between running and walking? What about doing the animation of drawing back a bowstring to fire an arrow? If you want ANY of that then, OH NO, it looks like you want realism also. *gasp*
3) I want a better design but not for "no reason." Pretty sure everyone, except you, gets the reason. To have a great game. I want things that make a game good, make sense, feel solid and well thought out. Logic and common sense based. Not some half-assed ideas that don't make sense when put to any level of scrutiny.
Back to, "This is the issue when everyone can give ideas, they don't think or care about the design of the game...They just want their idea."
1) Here we agree again. A lot of people that give ideas "don't think or care about the design of the game...They just want their idea."
You mean like YOU?
I gave plenty of reasons why arrows should be in the game. I gave different ideas about how to carry and get arrows. I have explained why rangers need to use arrows and why the ranger class doesn't fit into the other class styles, melee and mana. They are in a category of their own. If that means they have special requirements then so be it. Just because this class is different doesn't mean we should think up ways to burden other classes. The core design of this classes mechanics dictate the needs and requirements of how this class should function.
"They just want their idea." What have you given? What have you clarified logically? What alternatives have you proposed? What explanations about anything relating to anything have you provided? Other than sitting there pouting about someone not agreeing with you and posting, (well, I really don't WTF you were trying to say) how have you contributed?
Tell us, who's the one that just wants their idea?
2) I am glad you said "They just want their idea." I played WoW for a long time and quite often during TBC I read the forums but I rarely posted anything. I saw a lot of really bad ideas get floated based on nothing other than people didn't like it, didn't want to bother with it, feels bad or other lazy people justifications. I just laughed because I thought "no way in hell will they do that".
Then WotLK dropped and it was immediately apparent they had. They dumbed down things in the game. Being a pally tank and understanding how important it was to be uncrittable I was put off that they made the game easier and uncrittable wasn't a thing anymore. Through out WotLK I saw and heard a ton more ignorant ideas from brainless people wanting an easier game. People complaining about things that weren't broken but wanted them "fixed". This trend continued through every xpac. Each xpac the game got dumbed down more, easier, less impactful and boring until I stopped playing in BFA. By that point it was a shit show. Tanks over the years became worse and worse. Pulling became a lost artform. People didn't know how to CC correctly. Talent trees had been reduced to a slap in the players face. A myriad of other problems and consequences arose and it all came from "They just want their idea." The devs listened and gave into their player base. Many people who looked logically at the game design spoke out against it but they were outnumbered by the entitled ones who didn't care about anything other than themselves with no justification as to why things should be that way.
3) This is a new game from a company that wants player feedback. I plan on speaking my mind, loudly and often. I plan on scrutinizing things that don't make sense and calling out bad ideas. Not because I want to be a jerk but because I have faith Intrepid has a chance to make a game that has the potential to dwarf WotLK player numbers. Not saying they will, they just have a chance. I do believe they will make a fantastic game as long as they don't take the path blizzard did. But mostly I want a really good game to play and that wont happen by watering it down.
4) I would like to have arrows in the game. At the same time I'm not opposed to being ammo free but that argument needs to make sense and not be because someone just doesn't like it, or it's costly, or rangers are the only ones that have to carry extra crap, or it takes up bag space, etc. I gave explanations to easily fix all of that but still all I hear from you guys "I don't like it". That's fine not to like it. Expend more effort and come up with a better idea. Come up with something that justifies (in the game world) why rangers don't use arrows.
To the forum admin that reads this, sorry it was so damn long.
All these ideas for limited ammo are trash, all these special effects can be applied through finding gear or using a quiver off hand item slot.
There won't be any good reason for needing to make or buy arrows in this game. If a game has that resource management designed in it, that is most likely for a reason around the content the player does. This is a mmorpg, it does not work the same way other other games do.
This is a game it is not bound by realistic effects, when you are shooting 10 arrows in less than 10 seconds for a few mobs, and you multiple that over a arrow that is ridicules amounts. If you were shooting a arrow a second over 60 minutes and assumed there was a half downtime where you don't shoot arrows for half of that time or other reasons that is over 100000 arrows you have shot....
Effectively you are suggesting an idea not even based off the actual design of the game because you want something for actually no reason to make it more realistic.
This is the issue when everyone can give ideas, they don't think or care about the design of the game...They just want their idea.
Finally! Someone said something I can agree with. I have to do some code breaking to fully understand some of that gibberish but I'll give it a shot.
You said, "This is the issue when everyone can give ideas, they don't think or care about the design of the game...They just want their idea."
LOL!! We'll come back to that.
So starting at the top you said, "all these special effects can be applied through finding gear or using a quiver off hand item slot."
1) like I said, we agree. Put quivers in the game. What do quivers hold? I wonder.....
2) When you say "all these special effects" what are you referring to? Different effects arrows would have? Then why would the effect come from gear and not the arrows?
3) Why would a quiver be in an off hand slot for a weapon that requires 2 hands?
You followed it up with by going deep on this one, "There won't be any good reason for needing to make or buy arrows in this game. If a game has that resource management designed in it, that is most likely for a reason around the content the player does. This is a mmorpg, it does not work the same way other other games do."
1) Where to start? Well, I don't know what you mean by "won't be any good reason for needing to make or buy arrows in this game." That sounds dangerously like an opinion and you know what opinions are like, right?
2) What facts are you basing this on? What inside information to the design of this game do you have? How do you know what reasons they are making their decisions from? I mean that's a pretty ignorant claim unless you can back it up.
3) You are talking about the content designed around the player. So how does a bow deal damage? They shoot physical projectiles to do melee damage at range. This isn't magic. If you have another way to explain physical damage at range I'm all ears.
Lets explore the magic side for a second. Would you champion the idea that rangers should operate off mana? If so that gets rid of the physical damage component and would explain a lot. However you're left explaining the different between a mage and ranger since both would use the same resource and do damage based off said resource. So what's the difference? A mage uses a staff and ranger uses a.....bent staff?
4) You are correct that this is a mmorpg. What I can't figure out is how you are linking a bow not needing arrows to the game being a mmorpg. Are you implying that mmorpgs aren't allowed to have weapons that require ammo? Or perhaps mmorpgs that have weapons that require ammo don't work? Also, are you saying mages and healers in a single player game can't work similarly to a mages and healers in a mmorpg? What about melee like warriors or rogues? If they can why can't a bowman?
This turd nugget was the hardest to understand. Somewhat because I couldn't catch the meaning but mainly because I was having a hard time fathoming your math. "This is a game it is not bound by realistic effects, when you are shooting 10 arrows in less than 10 seconds for a few mobs, and you multiple that over a arrow that is ridicules amounts. If you were shooting a arrow a second over 60 minutes and assumed there was a half downtime where you don't shoot arrows for half of that time or other reasons that is over 100000 arrows you have shot...."
1) You are correct this game isn't bound by realistic effects. A lot of games aren't. Good games and good game design are bound by logic, rules and common sense. Especially rpgs where immersion is a main feature. If those tenets of game design aren't followed then something else, such as lore, needs to be able to explain why it doesn't work and it if can't then you have a glaring problem.
2) 10 arrows, 10 seconds, multiple that over a arrow....? Even my inner caveman is going "WTF?"
3) Arrow a second is 60 arrows a minute multiplied by 60 minutes. 60X60= 3600 arrows an hour with no down time. I have absolutely no idea where you got 100,000 arrows shot. Also I have absolutely no idea what you are trying to convey here. Is this why you are against ammo in the game? It confuses you? Math scares you?
Then there's this.....thing. "Effectively you are suggesting an idea not even based off the actual design of the game because you want something for actually no reason to make it more realistic."
1) Tell us more about the design of the game and how you know. Better yet, tell us anything about the design of the game. Also how do you know my idea isn't based off the design of the game? Because you don't like it that means it falls outside the parameters of the games design? LOL. Please, keep dropping these pearls of wisdom.
2) Paraphrasing here - "because you want something for no reason other than to make it realistic"
Do you want to see your guy swing an axe when cutting down a tree? A difference between running and walking? What about doing the animation of drawing back a bowstring to fire an arrow? If you want ANY of that then, OH NO, it looks like you want realism also. *gasp*
3) I want a better design but not for "no reason." Pretty sure everyone, except you, gets the reason. To have a great game. I want things that make a game good, make sense, feel solid and well thought out. Logic and common sense based. Not some half-assed ideas that don't make sense when put to any level of scrutiny.
Back to, "This is the issue when everyone can give ideas, they don't think or care about the design of the game...They just want their idea."
1) Here we agree again. A lot of people that give ideas "don't think or care about the design of the game...They just want their idea."
You mean like YOU?
I gave plenty of reasons why arrows should be in the game. I gave different ideas about how to carry and get arrows. I have explained why rangers need to use arrows and why the ranger class doesn't fit into the other class styles, melee and mana. They are in a category of their own. If that means they have special requirements then so be it. Just because this class is different doesn't mean we should think up ways to burden other classes. The core design of this classes mechanics dictate the needs and requirements of how this class should function.
"They just want their idea." What have you given? What have you clarified logically? What alternatives have you proposed? What explanations about anything relating to anything have you provided? Other than sitting there pouting about someone not agreeing with you and posting, (well, I really don't WTF you were trying to say) how have you contributed?
Tell us, who's the one that just wants their idea?
2) I am glad you said "They just want their idea." I played WoW for a long time and quite often during TBC I read the forums but I rarely posted anything. I saw a lot of really bad ideas get floated based on nothing other than people didn't like it, didn't want to bother with it, feels bad or other lazy people justifications. I just laughed because I thought "no way in hell will they do that".
Then WotLK dropped and it was immediately apparent they had. They dumbed down things in the game. Being a pally tank and understanding how important it was to be uncrittable I was put off that they made the game easier and uncrittable wasn't a thing anymore. Through out WotLK I saw and heard a ton more ignorant ideas from brainless people wanting an easier game. People complaining about things that weren't broken but wanted them "fixed". This trend continued through every xpac. Each xpac the game got dumbed down more, easier, less impactful and boring until I stopped playing in BFA. By that point it was a shit show. Tanks over the years became worse and worse. Pulling became a lost artform. People didn't know how to CC correctly. Talent trees had been reduced to a slap in the players face. A myriad of other problems and consequences arose and it all came from "They just want their idea." The devs listened and gave into their player base. Many people who looked logically at the game design spoke out against it but they were outnumbered by the entitled ones who didn't care about anything other than themselves with no justification as to why things should be that way.
3) This is a new game from a company that wants player feedback. I plan on speaking my mind, loudly and often. I plan on scrutinizing things that don't make sense and calling out bad ideas. Not because I want to be a jerk but because I have faith Intrepid has a chance to make a game that has the potential to dwarf WotLK player numbers. Not saying they will, they just have a chance. I do believe they will make a fantastic game as long as they don't take the path blizzard did. But mostly I want a really good game to play and that wont happen by watering it down.
4) I would like to have arrows in the game. At the same time I'm not opposed to being ammo free but that argument needs to make sense and not be because someone just doesn't like it, or it's costly, or rangers are the only ones that have to carry extra crap, or it takes up bag space, etc. I gave explanations to easily fix all of that but still all I hear from you guys "I don't like it". That's fine not to like it. Expend more effort and come up with a better idea. Come up with something that justifies (in the game world) why rangers don't use arrows.
To the forum admin that reads this, sorry it was so damn long.
Arrows go in quiver
That is not a design reason for ammunition, realism is not a reason to create game design issues. I can tell you have not played POE, please stop thinking realism as a reason for game design. It is simply a means to add a secondary gear slot where you can do special stats on it and buffs.
Your next point
Guessing you have not watched the ranger showcase where they say they are not doing ammunition, meaning their combat design is not going to be focused around it. Half these points are not based off actual game design or reasoning. You are simply wanting realism that is not backed by any positive and fun game design points.
Next point
Thy have 0 reason to explain arrows for you, it doesn't matter nor does it add game play mechanics for a mmorpg based on the gameplay they are going for. Nor does not explaining it take anything away from you or gameplay, that isn't a reason for making or buying arrows.
overexaggerated the number a bit for the hour with a another *60. Point is still the same with the amount arrows per hour. (but ill will fix the number thanks)
You can't understand the issue because you don't think based on design, so your idea/desire for buying and making arrows is trash.
Design
By default your idea is not based on the design of the game as they aren't having arrow ammunition. This would be your chance to try to push your idea why it is based on design and will make the game fun for everyone, you still fail here and waste time saying fluff. Your desire is realism, that does not equal fun gameplay, based on the gameplay shown you can clearly see the direction they are going and that is not in a way of having arrow ammunition.
Rangers not fitting it
They fit in fine, and the game is clearly balanced around mana, you trying to say change mana to carrying arrows is just silly its not a good idea. This idea is trash and not created around the actual design direction the game is going based on what has been shown with mana being the cap. Honestly if you think arrows should equal mana instead, we can have a whole discussion on why that is just naïve.
Why would i say another idea when what they are doing is right lol? Effectively you want to overcomplicate, break balance, add inconvenience for personal desire of over realism that is not based on design.
Everything else is fluff this isn't WoW. Buying and making thousands of arrows constantly is actually pointless and offers nothing to the game. Game should be balanced around the classes and use of mana, and not spend or make special or overpowered arrows to attempt to make content easier.
Well you still keep talking and saying nothing. You keep saying design like a drowning man clinging to a slowly deflating floatation device. This word design, I don't think it means what you think it means.
True they already stated they weren't going to use ammo but they have stated many times before they want feedback and things can change. I gave plenty of examples as to why and how it should be included. You, you contribute nothing.
Like many things, once Alpha Two has been released and the game is in all of our hands, it will be easier to form opinions on these things! You never know which opinions may change once actually playing the game.
If we receive overwhelming feedback during testing that players want ammunition, then we will of course make the consideration!
The point of the convo is to bring up potential ideas that could be possible solutions here or elsewhere or great ideas that people want implemented. That's the whole point of conversation. A concept you clearly don't know how to participate in. Seriously, man you got nothing. At this point I don't think you have the capacity to even understand what is suppose to be taking place here.
Repeatedly I say things and you somehow twist what was said around to suit your view.
You show signs of not being able to grasp simple concepts.
You intentionally slant the information to try to make your argument look better.
I am seriously wondering if English your first language.
1) No I don't play PoE. It didn't look interesting. I do find it interesting how you like to say this isn't WoW so
bringing it up is fluff and doesn't matter but then you point to PoE. Really? Also find it amusing you keep referring to me wanting realism yet you ignore the question I posed to you. What's wrong? Can't answer it?
2) Yes I saw the live stream. Feel free to point out exactly what points aren't based off reasoning.
3) You are right, they don't have to explain anything to anyone about anything. What does that have to do with
anything? The forum are for throwing out ideas and if they like what they see here they may consider it.
Note Vaknars post.
4) Overexaggerated is an understatement. You straight up lied and got caught. Now you're trying to play it off. Weak.
5) You said "By default your idea is not based on the design of the game as they aren't having arrow
ammunition. This would be your chance to try to push your idea why it is based on design and will make the
game fun for everyone, you still fail here and waste time saying fluff."
I'm calling you out. Go ahead and show what you would consider to be a valid idea here. My money is on 1- you wont followed by some irrational convoluted excuse or 2- as per your typical pattern you will ignore it completely.
6) Didn't say rangers didn't fit in. Said they don't fit with caster or melee. They're in a category of their own. You're twisting words.
7) Go ahead and explain why mana arrows are naive since you volunteered. You wont answer.
8) Give examples how I'm trying to "overcomplicate, break balance". Delusional statement. Wont answer.
9) Never said you should buy or make arrows constantly. You're twisting words.
10) Never said arrows should be overpowered. You're twisting words.
11) Never said to make content easier. You're twisting words.
You dodge questions, twist words, give delusional examples and straight up lie.
The difference between me and you is I want a good game, willing to entertain ideas, put forth different options to find a better way and know others may have better ideas. I'm open to that.
You just look at this as if it was an argument and only care about winning. When you enter a forum like this where it's a collaboration with your mentality then you've already lost. What's worse is the only person you lost to is yourself because no one else cares.
So Rhorden's hard-on for (arrow) shafts aside, I think we've concluded that carrying ammo contributes nothing to the game save for a time and money waste. Even his own points offer nothing which seemingly contributes any "fun" or interesting mechanic which enhances the game past his own desire for some underwhelming form of realism in a high fantasy MMO videogame.
If he (I'm assuming it's a he) wishes to have ammo in his game, I'm sure there other ones which best fit his taste. If not, then he'll either have to accept that the game is not going to include ammo, or leave it.
Either way, we're all just gonna play without ammo to fret over and have a grand old time about it.
I think that players need to craft arrows to prepare for contents is too detailed, I feel the quiver idea that Steven mentioned in video is very good, it can be like quiver automatic craft arrows for player just by automatically consume the materials in player's bag and the quiver can give enchant effect to arrows to do more different things base on the quiver type and level so just think it’s a magic quiver, for example a quiver made from some monster have poison characteristic which will allow the quiver to craft poison arrows for player to use, and player should able to equip multiple quivers in the same time and switches from one to another base on situations and with cooldown or something, to me a ranger from 2 to 4 quivers is normal and over 4 to 6 quivers I will say great and over 6 quivers maybe a class like ranger + ranger should able to, it’s will be like how coating works for bow in Monster Hunter, and telling players that quiver is magical quiver will automatically craft arrows has another benefits which is that if you allow player to decide how many quivers he/she want to equip on the character it doesn't have to put heavy amount of arrows in quiver to represent how many arrows are there in the quivers and feel more clean and natural if a character equip multiple quivers in stead of making it looks silly but as I know equip multiple quivers is doable and it's a real thing in history at least in my region.
I wrote this in ranged weapon update feedback thread, I quote the quiver and ammunition part to here.
I don't like to prepare ammunition before every time I leave town and I need do boring task over and over between the hunting fun, I think it's okay to do it in a convenient way enough and make materials from different regions still valuable and important.
Hope this will help, and please note that I don't want to talk game design too detail so I only roughly give a direction you can imagine the rest.
Well you still keep talking and saying nothing. You keep saying design like a drowning man clinging to a slowly deflating floatation device. This word design, I don't think it means what you think it means.
True they already stated they weren't going to use ammo but they have stated many times before they want feedback and things can change. I gave plenty of examples as to why and how it should be included. You, you contribute nothing.
Like many things, once Alpha Two has been released and the game is in all of our hands, it will be easier to form opinions on these things! You never know which opinions may change once actually playing the game.
If we receive overwhelming feedback during testing that players want ammunition, then we will of course make the consideration!
The point of the convo is to bring up potential ideas that could be possible solutions here or elsewhere or great ideas that people want implemented. That's the whole point of conversation. A concept you clearly don't know how to participate in. Seriously, man you got nothing. At this point I don't think you have the capacity to even understand what is suppose to be taking place here.
Repeatedly I say things and you somehow twist what was said around to suit your view.
You show signs of not being able to grasp simple concepts.
You intentionally slant the information to try to make your argument look better.
I am seriously wondering if English your first language.
1) No I don't play PoE. It didn't look interesting. I do find it interesting how you like to say this isn't WoW so
bringing it up is fluff and doesn't matter but then you point to PoE. Really? Also find it amusing you keep referring to me wanting realism yet you ignore the question I posed to you. What's wrong? Can't answer it?
2) Yes I saw the live stream. Feel free to point out exactly what points aren't based off reasoning.
3) You are right, they don't have to explain anything to anyone about anything. What does that have to do with
anything? The forum are for throwing out ideas and if they like what they see here they may consider it.
Note Vaknars post.
4) Overexaggerated is an understatement. You straight up lied and got caught. Now you're trying to play it off. Weak.
5) You said "By default your idea is not based on the design of the game as they aren't having arrow
ammunition. This would be your chance to try to push your idea why it is based on design and will make the
game fun for everyone, you still fail here and waste time saying fluff."
I'm calling you out. Go ahead and show what you would consider to be a valid idea here. My money is on 1- you wont followed by some irrational convoluted excuse or 2- as per your typical pattern you will ignore it completely.
6) Didn't say rangers didn't fit in. Said they don't fit with caster or melee. They're in a category of their own. You're twisting words.
7) Go ahead and explain why mana arrows are naive since you volunteered. You wont answer.
8) Give examples how I'm trying to "overcomplicate, break balance". Delusional statement. Wont answer.
9) Never said you should buy or make arrows constantly. You're twisting words.
10) Never said arrows should be overpowered. You're twisting words.
11) Never said to make content easier. You're twisting words.
You dodge questions, twist words, give delusional examples and straight up lie.
The difference between me and you is I want a good game, willing to entertain ideas, put forth different options to find a better way and know others may have better ideas. I'm open to that.
You just look at this as if it was an argument and only care about winning. When you enter a forum like this where it's a collaboration with your mentality then you've already lost. What's worse is the only person you lost to is yourself because no one else cares.
I see you aren't able to understand things are based on design, and you think people need to argue why arrows shouldn't be crafted which honestly is just stupid. That is on you to give reasoning why it will be fun and backed by design for that to be a thing.
Honestly you don't give a single good point you are simply saying "it is more real to have physical arrows." which is a trash point.
On the points you don't understand, you should not be advocating for this if you don't understand any concept of design.... you are honestly wasting my time replying to you.
You can't think of the effects, strengths or reasoning from a gameplay perspective....
You do realize when you put something in quotes you are saying that someone said those words, right? I never said what you quoted. Is lying fun for you or is it like an affliction?
Mag7spy - game plan for debates -
1) Make up fake quotes.
2) Lie.
3) Do not address anything said by the other party when caught in a Lie.
4) Do not address and any rebuttals by the other party.
5) Do not address any questions from the other party.
6) When call out and asked to give examples, turn the table and say examples are stupid.
7) When called out about anything else hide behind the magic "Game Design" shield.
7) The most important rule! Always make sure to never engage in any creative discussion at all.
So Rhorden's hard-on for (arrow) shafts aside, I think we've concluded that carrying ammo contributes nothing to the game save for a time and money waste. Even his own points offer nothing which seemingly contributes any "fun" or interesting mechanic which enhances the game past his own desire for some underwhelming form of realism in a high fantasy MMO videogame.
If he (I'm assuming it's a he) wishes to have ammo in his game, I'm sure there other ones which best fit his taste. If not, then he'll either have to accept that the game is not going to include ammo, or leave it.
Either way, we're all just gonna play without ammo to fret over and have a grand old time about it.
Back to the smooth brain olympics I guess.
I literally addressed exactly the points you have brought up about time and money. Multiple times. The rest of what you offer are opinions. Where's the talking points? Where's the justifications? Where's any intelligence from what you have brought up at all?
Looks like you dropped the dunce cap, again.
You do realize when you put something in quotes you are saying that someone said those words, right? I never said what you quoted. Is lying fun for you or is it like an affliction?
Mag7spy - game plan for debates -
1) Make up fake quotes.
2) Lie.
3) Do not address anything said by the other party when caught in a Lie.
4) Do not address and any rebuttals by the other party.
5) Do not address any questions from the other party.
6) When call out and asked to give examples, turn the table and say examples are stupid.
7) When called out about anything else hide behind the magic "Game Design" shield.
7) The most important rule! Always make sure to never engage in any creative discussion at all.
Are not capable of understanding design or saying things based off design and you are mad above. If you have a bad idea and people agree don't cry about it. No one is going to argue for new systems when current one using magic is a great decision.
I can tell how emotional you are getting over this, taking criticism is most likely not your best suit. Nor being able to convince me to use arrows with not good ideas based on the design of the game. Instead you waste time talking about nonsense.
Game design isn't magic btw, if you say ideas that are not in line with the design no one is going to take them seriously. Keep talking about this fluff or wasting time complaining about quotes or lies which is simply just your own perspective and is fluff that will not help you push people crafting and buying tens of thousands of arrows for 0 or weak reasons. While also not using your brain and understanding my own points.
I saw someone suggest different quiver / arrow effects which I thought was thought provoking. I'd love to hear your thoughts on different ammo types and if you have any favorite examples from other games.
Like many things, once Alpha Two has been released and the game is in all of our hands, it will be easier to form opinions on these things! You never know which opinions may change once actually playing the game.
If we receive overwhelming feedback during testing that players want ammunition, then we will of course make the consideration!
i dont see how you could go back and add ammunition after having infinite ammo in the first place. You would be removing a convenience that is in quite a few games these days. If you want to decide between the two you would need to have limited ammo first.
This is the point of Alpha and Beta testing! ^_^
Steven has decided that bows will not have ammunition. That has been decided. However, as I mentioned before, If we receive overwhelming feedbackduring testing that players want ammunition, then we will of course make the consideration
Mag7spy - game plan for debates -
1) Make up fake quotes.
2) Lie.
3) Do not address anything said by the other party when caught in a Lie.
4) Do not address and any rebuttals by the other party.
5) Do not address any questions from the other party.
6) When call out and asked to give examples, turn the table and say examples are stupid.
7) When called out about anything else hide behind the magic "Game Design" shield.
7) The most important rule! Always make sure to never engage in any creative discussion at all.
Mag7spy - game plan for debates -
1) Make up fake quotes.
2) Lie.
3) Do not address anything said by the other party when caught in a Lie.
4) Do not address and any rebuttals by the other party.
5) Do not address any questions from the other party.
6) When call out and asked to give examples, turn the table and say examples are stupid.
7) When called out about anything else hide behind the magic "Game Design" shield.
7) The most important rule! Always make sure to never engage in any creative discussion at all.
Why are you copy pasting this again lmfao actually trolling.
I saw someone suggest different quiver / arrow effects which I thought was thought provoking. I'd love to hear your thoughts on different ammo types and if you have any favorite examples from other games.
Quiver can be a off hand (so bows would be the main hand and secondary weapon would be quiver) for gear pieces. You can allow some types of quivers to have a special effect you have access to special types of arrows so one example would be 20 arrows and it would have a duration as well before they would go away.
These arrows could have any amount of special stats or damage increase. So poison maybe could be done akin to elden ring as an example as if you get hit by enough it builds a stack and applies that effect to the target.
Bows could have their own type of effect on it, but the quiver would be able to override it allowing to potentially apply to different elemental stacks as well.
It could be a mix of a draw back and strength since there would be a clear cooldown based on the gear on how often you can use that buff and have access to those arrows for a set amount of shots.
Mag7spy - game plan for debates -
1) Make up fake quotes.
2) Lie.
3) Do not address anything said by the other party when caught in a Lie.
4) Do not address and any rebuttals by the other party.
5) Do not address any questions from the other party.
6) When call out and asked to give examples, turn the table and say examples are stupid.
7) When called out about anything else hide behind the magic "Game Design" shield.
7) The most important rule! Always make sure to never engage in any creative discussion at all.
Why are you copy pasting this again lmfao actually trolling.
Because you keep flagging my name. If you have ANYTHING to add to further game discussion based on common sense, logic, creative ideas then I am willing to listen and discuss that. You bring nothing to the conversation.
As it stands you refuse to acknowledge the points I have brought up, questions I bring up, you intentionally post fake quotes, you have lied multiple times and been caught doing it. You aren't interested in back and forth discussion to foster better ideas or game play. You only stick to the imbecilic idea of game design and realism arguments which is absurd. Have you ever considered how they have come to make the decisions that they have and that game design is a flexible concept? Of course not.
The "realism" stance is insanely ignorant as I am not the one that argued for, or against, realism. You were. 2 times I mentioned realistic or realism. The first time was in my first post in which, even a 5th grader can see, it's a word that can be switched out with the word "practical". Meaning I'm looking for an approach that makes sense. I thought that to be obvious especially when I mentioned mana arrows, cause we all know how real those are. You said mana arrows were naive but then, in typical fashion, wouldn't elaborate. It had absolutely nothing to do with realism in the game.
The second time was in a question to you. That question severed 2 purposes. First, was to see where your deciding line was when talking about realism so were could actually have a conversation that would forward ideas. The 2nd purpose was to see if you would answer it, which I was sure you wouldn't, and you didn't. In that case it told me exactly the type of person I was dealing with.
The realism argument is an argument of your own making. You are literally arguing with yourself. It makes me think of the adage "who's the bigger fool" with a new twist. The "game plan for debates" is very accurate and it is the only thing I will post in response to anything you post about me unless it pertains to the game AND furthers discussion of ideas. Since I do not believe you have the capacity for that then there is no point in talking to me, about me or flagging my name.
Mag7spy - game plan for debates -
1) Make up fake quotes.
2) Lie.
3) Do not address anything said by the other party when caught in a Lie.
4) Do not address and any rebuttals by the other party.
5) Do not address any questions from the other party.
6) When call out and asked to give examples, turn the table and say examples are stupid.
7) When called out about anything else hide behind the magic "Game Design" shield.
7) The most important rule! Always make sure to never engage in any creative discussion at all.
Mag7spy - game plan for debates -
1) Make up fake quotes.
2) Lie.
3) Do not address anything said by the other party when caught in a Lie.
4) Do not address and any rebuttals by the other party.
5) Do not address any questions from the other party.
6) When call out and asked to give examples, turn the table and say examples are stupid.
7) When called out about anything else hide behind the magic "Game Design" shield.
7) The most important rule! Always make sure to never engage in any creative discussion at all.
Why are you copy pasting this again lmfao actually trolling.
Because you keep flagging my name. If you have ANYTHING to add to further game discussion based on common sense, logic, creative ideas then I am willing to listen and discuss that. You bring nothing to the conversation.
As it stands you refuse to acknowledge the points I have brought up, questions I bring up, you intentionally post fake quotes, you have lied multiple times and been caught doing it. You aren't interested in back and forth discussion to foster better ideas or game play. You only stick to the imbecilic idea of game design and realism arguments which is absurd. Have you ever considered how they have come to make the decisions that they have and that game design is a flexible concept? Of course not.
The "realism" stance is insanely ignorant as I am not the one that argued for, or against, realism. You were. 2 times I mentioned realistic or realism. The first time was in my first post in which, even a 5th grader can see, it's a word that can be switched out with the word "practical". Meaning I'm looking for an approach that makes sense. I thought that to be obvious especially when I mentioned mana arrows, cause we all know how real those are. You said mana arrows were naive but then, in typical fashion, wouldn't elaborate. It had absolutely nothing to do with realism in the game.
The second time was in a question to you. That question severed 2 purposes. First, was to see where your deciding line was when talking about realism so were could actually have a conversation that would forward ideas. The 2nd purpose was to see if you would answer it, which I was sure you wouldn't, and you didn't. In that case it told me exactly the type of person I was dealing with.
The realism argument is an argument of your own making. You are literally arguing with yourself. It makes me think of the adage "who's the bigger fool" with a new twist. The "game plan for debates" is very accurate and it is the only thing I will post in response to anything you post about me unless it pertains to the game AND furthers discussion of ideas. Since I do not believe you have the capacity for that then there is no point in talking to me, about me or flagging my name.
Mag7spy - game plan for debates -
1) Make up fake quotes.
2) Lie.
3) Do not address anything said by the other party when caught in a Lie.
4) Do not address and any rebuttals by the other party.
5) Do not address any questions from the other party.
6) When call out and asked to give examples, turn the table and say examples are stupid.
7) When called out about anything else hide behind the magic "Game Design" shield.
7) The most important rule! Always make sure to never engage in any creative discussion at all.
Did you not read the above post you can stop trolling now.
Mag7spy - game plan for debates -
1) Make up fake quotes.
2) Lie.
3) Do not address anything said by the other party when caught in a Lie.
4) Do not address and any rebuttals by the other party.
5) Do not address any questions from the other party.
6) When call out and asked to give examples, turn the table and say examples are stupid.
7) When called out about anything else hide behind the magic "Game Design" shield.
7) The most important rule! Always make sure to never engage in any creative discussion at all.
Why are you copy pasting this again lmfao actually trolling.
Because you keep flagging my name. If you have ANYTHING to add to further game discussion based on common sense, logic, creative ideas then I am willing to listen and discuss that. You bring nothing to the conversation.
As it stands you refuse to acknowledge the points I have brought up, questions I bring up, you intentionally post fake quotes, you have lied multiple times and been caught doing it. You aren't interested in back and forth discussion to foster better ideas or game play. You only stick to the imbecilic idea of game design and realism arguments which is absurd. Have you ever considered how they have come to make the decisions that they have and that game design is a flexible concept? Of course not.
The "realism" stance is insanely ignorant as I am not the one that argued for, or against, realism. You were. 2 times I mentioned realistic or realism. The first time was in my first post in which, even a 5th grader can see, it's a word that can be switched out with the word "practical". Meaning I'm looking for an approach that makes sense. I thought that to be obvious especially when I mentioned mana arrows, cause we all know how real those are. You said mana arrows were naive but then, in typical fashion, wouldn't elaborate. It had absolutely nothing to do with realism in the game.
The second time was in a question to you. That question severed 2 purposes. First, was to see where your deciding line was when talking about realism so were could actually have a conversation that would forward ideas. The 2nd purpose was to see if you would answer it, which I was sure you wouldn't, and you didn't. In that case it told me exactly the type of person I was dealing with.
The realism argument is an argument of your own making. You are literally arguing with yourself. It makes me think of the adage "who's the bigger fool" with a new twist. The "game plan for debates" is very accurate and it is the only thing I will post in response to anything you post about me unless it pertains to the game AND furthers discussion of ideas. Since I do not believe you have the capacity for that then there is no point in talking to me, about me or flagging my name.
Mag7spy - game plan for debates -
1) Make up fake quotes.
2) Lie.
3) Do not address anything said by the other party when caught in a Lie.
4) Do not address and any rebuttals by the other party.
5) Do not address any questions from the other party.
6) When call out and asked to give examples, turn the table and say examples are stupid.
7) When called out about anything else hide behind the magic "Game Design" shield.
7) The most important rule! Always make sure to never engage in any creative discussion at all.
Did you not read the above post you can stop trolling now.
What do you think about mana arrows?
You wont answer.
Mag7spy - game plan for debates -
1) Make up fake quotes.
2) Lie.
3) Do not address anything said by the other party when caught in a Lie.
4) Do not address and any rebuttals by the other party.
5) Do not address any questions from the other party.
6) When call out and asked to give examples, turn the table and say examples are stupid.
7) When called out about anything else hide behind the magic "Game Design" shield.
7) The most important rule! Always make sure to never engage in any creative discussion at all.
Comments
i dont see how you could go back and add ammunition after having infinite ammo in the first place. You would be removing a convenience that is in quite a few games these days. If you want to decide between the two you would need to have limited ammo first.
So you're basically confirming that we're limiting the burden of spending money and inventory space for the benefit of using the basic attack on a single archetype. Got it.
Hey, anyone wanna play the single archetype that has to pay in-game currency to actually hit anything?
Also to answer the question: have I played a hunter before? Yes. Yes I have. Even in WoW. And guess what? WoW figured that needing to buy ammo was so dumb that they removed it from the game.
I totally agree with this, I personally love gathering resources to make my own ammunition in New World right now, a caveat however, I don't think you should completely be hindered if you have run out of arrows. What New World did is simply nerf your damage a bit if you have no ammunition, other than that I completely agree I like the idea and implementation of ammunition.
I gave several examples of how things could be done a different way so that arrows actually mattered, time and mats were cut way down for crafting, inventory space wasn't used and it could have been done easily by the hunter so no money was needed either. You failed to address any of that.
You can't even be bothered to actually contribute to possible solutions. Instead you make baseless arguments like "WoW figured that needing to buy ammo was so dumb that they removed it from the game." Go ahead and link ANYTHING showing that's why it was removed. Also, keep making ignorant statements, I enjoy it.
Since you admit to playing a hunter in WoW I have to ask, why did you make these ridiculous arguments about hunters when you knew full well that what you were saying was intentionally misleading?
1) "Do you wanna be going back to town every three or four pulls of mobs, because you ran out of whatever ressources your archetype uses?"
2) "prevents you from going out and exploring since you might just run out of your basic-attack-ressource, and will just get stomped by mobs once you can't fight back."
I do need to say I found the 2nd statement amusing. "Prevents" and "might", really? It's commendable you can face each day knowing all the "mights" that could happen.
Why would someone make an argument and knowingly slant the information so far out of proportion? Says a lot about ones character. It also says a lot when you can't even come up with a reasonable argument. Especially after I addressed everything you said and all you can do is regurgitate the same useless dribble you vomited before. Congrats on being the smooth brain warrior of this thread. Clearly you wanted that title.
So here are a few things to think about exploration relative to this thread that may be relevant:
1. Personal inventory space is going to be limited early on, with the main inventory multiplier being a mule. We don’t have any idea (as of yet) what approximate level or economic status a toon will be when they can start purchasing a full compliment of roomy bags, so it could be a while. https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Bag_space
2. Travel speed. There is no fast travel. There are no hearthstones. There are no flight paths. No ‘need arrows, need summ in 2 min.’ You’re out of ammo you cannot use your bow until you: find a vendor (which may not exist in your current node), find a crafter (who has the processed mats necessary to make you arrows - and possibly a portable station to craft anything in the first place), craft the arrows yourself (given you have the processed mats and some method to craft), or equip a sword and run.
3. Disadvantage in world pvp. Being out exploring is a dangerous business, especially when you’re out of arrows and are the only class who’s literal ability to attack depends on a non-rechargeable resource. That seems like a non-starter inequality to me.
So - it’s a valid point that ammo could be a constraint on exploration, particularly targeting Rangers - which is even more ironic considering they are the quintessential class for exploring the wilderness.
I already addressed in my original post.
1) Arrows go in quivers not bags. Quivers have their own slots. Multiple slots.
2) Craft your own. Small amount of resources lets you craft a large supply of arrows via a mechanical quiver
or a specialized item you carry with you.
3) Harry potter bag. Normal size but holds a ridiculous amount. Not infinite, just ridiculous.
The idea is that higher tier crafted arrows are what you want but they aren't op. The low end arrow is very easy to craft in bulk, store in your quiver by the hundreds, possibly thousands, and are made with easy to find, readily available items - rocks, flint, sticks, feathers, whatever. It takes seconds to make and don't think about again for days, possibly weeks depending on personal playstyle, available time, amount of combat engagement, etc. These arrows do 90% of the best arrows damage.
Top tier arrows fit far smaller quantities, may require a workbench and/or a "fletchers kit" that takes 1 slot (not in normal bag inventory), using same mats but a larger quantity.
Specialty arrows like fire, ice, poison, stun, trap, net, etc. require special mats, but again nothing thats too difficult to come across. Craft same as top tier arrows although it would take a bit longer and the quiver wouldn't hold as many as top tier.
If anyone manages to run out of arrows in the field it shouldn't take more than a minute or two find, craft and be ready to use a large quantity of lower tier arrows. Being stranded in the field wouldn't happen. Worst case scenario is you are doing only 90% of your maximum potential.
Personally I am in favor of a much harder, more rigorous version of arrow crafting with its own small crafting tree but like I said before, finding the middle ground.
For normal ammunition, if you can hold thousands, can craft in bulk, and make them from any number of resources around your feet, at what point do they become so trivial that they aren’t worth the systems established to manage them?
That's sort of the point. It's trivial. For the people that don't want to bother with it it would be nothing more than a slight inconvenience at worst. Doesn't slow you down, doesn't take up space, almost never run out and still do solid damage.
For the people that are more into it they would spend the time to gather more mats and carry fewer so they could use the slightly stronger arrows. Ultimately I would favor decently stronger arrows with more effort to craft but at that point people would shit on rangers not using the better arrows and that wasn't the goal. Pretty much anything short of a raid the bulk arrows would do just fine.
On the other side, maybe when a node hits a certain level and you are linked to it there would be an armory you could grab as many arrows as you want for free.
A melee user might need to rely on several sets of weapons. Or even buy something like "holy water" to temporarily add holy damage, which turns out to be quite good for Undead and the like.
A ranger could just switch ammunition. And do it on the fly, in combat even.
Magical classes would have to spread out their talents/skills a bit.
And now, all of a sudden you've added not only a reason to have arrows. (And I cannot overstate how awesome being able to create your own arrows is as a ranger baseline skill.)
But you've also added some complexity to combat itself
And everyone would have to prepare to go somewhere ahead of time. As it should be.
If they went the route of making ammo required then I would say yes for certain spells. It's not hard to believe that it would be done considering we already have abilities confirmed to require the correct weapon equipped to use them.
There won't be any good reason for needing to make or buy arrows in this game. If a game has that resource management designed in it, that is most likely for a reason around the content the player does. This is a mmorpg, it does not work the same way other other games do.
This is a game it is not bound by realistic effects, when you are shooting 10 arrows in less than 10 seconds for a few mobs, and you multiple that over a arrow that is ridicules amounts. If you were shooting a arrow a second over 60 minutes and assumed there was a half downtime where you don't shoot arrows for half of that time or other reasons that is over 1800 (edit) arrows you have shot....
Effectively you are suggesting an idea not even based off the actual design of the game because you want something for actually no reason to make it more realistic.
This is the issue when everyone can give ideas, they don't think or care about the design of the game...They just want their idea.
Finally! Someone said something I can agree with. I have to do some code breaking to fully understand some of that gibberish but I'll give it a shot.
You said,
"This is the issue when everyone can give ideas, they don't think or care about the design of the game...They just want their idea."
LOL!! We'll come back to that.
So starting at the top you said,
"all these special effects can be applied through finding gear or using a quiver off hand item slot."
1) like I said, we agree. Put quivers in the game. What do quivers hold? I wonder.....
2) When you say "all these special effects" what are you referring to? Different effects arrows would have? Then why would the effect come from gear and not the arrows?
3) Why would a quiver be in an off hand slot for a weapon that requires 2 hands?
You followed it up with by going deep on this one,
"There won't be any good reason for needing to make or buy arrows in this game. If a game has that resource management designed in it, that is most likely for a reason around the content the player does. This is a mmorpg, it does not work the same way other other games do."
1) Where to start? Well, I don't know what you mean by "won't be any good reason for needing to make or buy arrows in this game." That sounds dangerously like an opinion and you know what opinions are like, right?
2) What facts are you basing this on? What inside information to the design of this game do you have? How do you know what reasons they are making their decisions from? I mean that's a pretty ignorant claim unless you can back it up.
3) You are talking about the content designed around the player. So how does a bow deal damage? They shoot physical projectiles to do melee damage at range. This isn't magic. If you have another way to explain physical damage at range I'm all ears.
Lets explore the magic side for a second. Would you champion the idea that rangers should operate off mana? If so that gets rid of the physical damage component and would explain a lot. However you're left explaining the different between a mage and ranger since both would use the same resource and do damage based off said resource. So what's the difference? A mage uses a staff and ranger uses a.....bent staff?
4) You are correct that this is a mmorpg. What I can't figure out is how you are linking a bow not needing arrows to the game being a mmorpg. Are you implying that mmorpgs aren't allowed to have weapons that require ammo? Or perhaps mmorpgs that have weapons that require ammo don't work? Also, are you saying mages and healers in a single player game can't work similarly to a mages and healers in a mmorpg? What about melee like warriors or rogues? If they can why can't a bowman?
This turd nugget was the hardest to understand. Somewhat because I couldn't catch the meaning but mainly because I was having a hard time fathoming your math.
"This is a game it is not bound by realistic effects, when you are shooting 10 arrows in less than 10 seconds for a few mobs, and you multiple that over a arrow that is ridicules amounts. If you were shooting a arrow a second over 60 minutes and assumed there was a half downtime where you don't shoot arrows for half of that time or other reasons that is over 100000 arrows you have shot...."
1) You are correct this game isn't bound by realistic effects. A lot of games aren't. Good games and good game design are bound by logic, rules and common sense. Especially rpgs where immersion is a main feature. If those tenets of game design aren't followed then something else, such as lore, needs to be able to explain why it doesn't work and it if can't then you have a glaring problem.
2) 10 arrows, 10 seconds, multiple that over a arrow....? Even my inner caveman is going "WTF?"
3) Arrow a second is 60 arrows a minute multiplied by 60 minutes. 60X60= 3600 arrows an hour with no down time. I have absolutely no idea where you got 100,000 arrows shot. Also I have absolutely no idea what you are trying to convey here. Is this why you are against ammo in the game? It confuses you? Math scares you?
Then there's this.....thing.
"Effectively you are suggesting an idea not even based off the actual design of the game because you want something for actually no reason to make it more realistic."
1) Tell us more about the design of the game and how you know. Better yet, tell us anything about the design of the game. Also how do you know my idea isn't based off the design of the game? Because you don't like it that means it falls outside the parameters of the games design? LOL. Please, keep dropping these pearls of wisdom.
2) Paraphrasing here - "because you want something for no reason other than to make it realistic"
Do you want to see your guy swing an axe when cutting down a tree? A difference between running and walking? What about doing the animation of drawing back a bowstring to fire an arrow? If you want ANY of that then, OH NO, it looks like you want realism also. *gasp*
3) I want a better design but not for "no reason." Pretty sure everyone, except you, gets the reason. To have a great game. I want things that make a game good, make sense, feel solid and well thought out. Logic and common sense based. Not some half-assed ideas that don't make sense when put to any level of scrutiny.
Back to,
"This is the issue when everyone can give ideas, they don't think or care about the design of the game...They just want their idea."
1) Here we agree again. A lot of people that give ideas "don't think or care about the design of the game...They just want their idea."
You mean like YOU?
I gave plenty of reasons why arrows should be in the game. I gave different ideas about how to carry and get arrows. I have explained why rangers need to use arrows and why the ranger class doesn't fit into the other class styles, melee and mana. They are in a category of their own. If that means they have special requirements then so be it. Just because this class is different doesn't mean we should think up ways to burden other classes. The core design of this classes mechanics dictate the needs and requirements of how this class should function.
"They just want their idea." What have you given? What have you clarified logically? What alternatives have you proposed? What explanations about anything relating to anything have you provided? Other than sitting there pouting about someone not agreeing with you and posting, (well, I really don't WTF you were trying to say) how have you contributed?
Tell us, who's the one that just wants their idea?
2) I am glad you said "They just want their idea." I played WoW for a long time and quite often during TBC I read the forums but I rarely posted anything. I saw a lot of really bad ideas get floated based on nothing other than people didn't like it, didn't want to bother with it, feels bad or other lazy people justifications. I just laughed because I thought "no way in hell will they do that".
Then WotLK dropped and it was immediately apparent they had. They dumbed down things in the game. Being a pally tank and understanding how important it was to be uncrittable I was put off that they made the game easier and uncrittable wasn't a thing anymore. Through out WotLK I saw and heard a ton more ignorant ideas from brainless people wanting an easier game. People complaining about things that weren't broken but wanted them "fixed". This trend continued through every xpac. Each xpac the game got dumbed down more, easier, less impactful and boring until I stopped playing in BFA. By that point it was a shit show. Tanks over the years became worse and worse. Pulling became a lost artform. People didn't know how to CC correctly. Talent trees had been reduced to a slap in the players face. A myriad of other problems and consequences arose and it all came from "They just want their idea." The devs listened and gave into their player base. Many people who looked logically at the game design spoke out against it but they were outnumbered by the entitled ones who didn't care about anything other than themselves with no justification as to why things should be that way.
3) This is a new game from a company that wants player feedback. I plan on speaking my mind, loudly and often. I plan on scrutinizing things that don't make sense and calling out bad ideas. Not because I want to be a jerk but because I have faith Intrepid has a chance to make a game that has the potential to dwarf WotLK player numbers. Not saying they will, they just have a chance. I do believe they will make a fantastic game as long as they don't take the path blizzard did. But mostly I want a really good game to play and that wont happen by watering it down.
4) I would like to have arrows in the game. At the same time I'm not opposed to being ammo free but that argument needs to make sense and not be because someone just doesn't like it, or it's costly, or rangers are the only ones that have to carry extra crap, or it takes up bag space, etc. I gave explanations to easily fix all of that but still all I hear from you guys "I don't like it". That's fine not to like it. Expend more effort and come up with a better idea. Come up with something that justifies (in the game world) why rangers don't use arrows.
To the forum admin that reads this, sorry it was so damn long.
Arrows go in quiver
That is not a design reason for ammunition, realism is not a reason to create game design issues. I can tell you have not played POE, please stop thinking realism as a reason for game design. It is simply a means to add a secondary gear slot where you can do special stats on it and buffs.
Your next point
Guessing you have not watched the ranger showcase where they say they are not doing ammunition, meaning their combat design is not going to be focused around it. Half these points are not based off actual game design or reasoning. You are simply wanting realism that is not backed by any positive and fun game design points.
Next point
Thy have 0 reason to explain arrows for you, it doesn't matter nor does it add game play mechanics for a mmorpg based on the gameplay they are going for. Nor does not explaining it take anything away from you or gameplay, that isn't a reason for making or buying arrows.
overexaggerated the number a bit for the hour with a another *60. Point is still the same with the amount arrows per hour. (but ill will fix the number thanks)
You can't understand the issue because you don't think based on design, so your idea/desire for buying and making arrows is trash.
Design
By default your idea is not based on the design of the game as they aren't having arrow ammunition. This would be your chance to try to push your idea why it is based on design and will make the game fun for everyone, you still fail here and waste time saying fluff. Your desire is realism, that does not equal fun gameplay, based on the gameplay shown you can clearly see the direction they are going and that is not in a way of having arrow ammunition.
Rangers not fitting it
They fit in fine, and the game is clearly balanced around mana, you trying to say change mana to carrying arrows is just silly its not a good idea. This idea is trash and not created around the actual design direction the game is going based on what has been shown with mana being the cap. Honestly if you think arrows should equal mana instead, we can have a whole discussion on why that is just naïve.
Why would i say another idea when what they are doing is right lol? Effectively you want to overcomplicate, break balance, add inconvenience for personal desire of over realism that is not based on design.
Everything else is fluff this isn't WoW. Buying and making thousands of arrows constantly is actually pointless and offers nothing to the game. Game should be balanced around the classes and use of mana, and not spend or make special or overpowered arrows to attempt to make content easier.
True they already stated they weren't going to use ammo but they have stated many times before they want feedback and things can change. I gave plenty of examples as to why and how it should be included. You, you contribute nothing. The point of the convo is to bring up potential ideas that could be possible solutions here or elsewhere or great ideas that people want implemented. That's the whole point of conversation. A concept you clearly don't know how to participate in. Seriously, man you got nothing. At this point I don't think you have the capacity to even understand what is suppose to be taking place here.
Repeatedly I say things and you somehow twist what was said around to suit your view.
You show signs of not being able to grasp simple concepts.
You intentionally slant the information to try to make your argument look better.
I am seriously wondering if English your first language.
1) No I don't play PoE. It didn't look interesting. I do find it interesting how you like to say this isn't WoW so
bringing it up is fluff and doesn't matter but then you point to PoE. Really? Also find it amusing you keep referring to me wanting realism yet you ignore the question I posed to you. What's wrong? Can't answer it?
2) Yes I saw the live stream. Feel free to point out exactly what points aren't based off reasoning.
3) You are right, they don't have to explain anything to anyone about anything. What does that have to do with
anything? The forum are for throwing out ideas and if they like what they see here they may consider it.
Note Vaknars post.
4) Overexaggerated is an understatement. You straight up lied and got caught. Now you're trying to play it off. Weak.
5) You said "By default your idea is not based on the design of the game as they aren't having arrow
ammunition. This would be your chance to try to push your idea why it is based on design and will make the
game fun for everyone, you still fail here and waste time saying fluff."
I'm calling you out. Go ahead and show what you would consider to be a valid idea here. My money is on 1- you wont followed by some irrational convoluted excuse or 2- as per your typical pattern you will ignore it completely.
6) Didn't say rangers didn't fit in. Said they don't fit with caster or melee. They're in a category of their own. You're twisting words.
7) Go ahead and explain why mana arrows are naive since you volunteered. You wont answer.
8) Give examples how I'm trying to "overcomplicate, break balance". Delusional statement. Wont answer.
9) Never said you should buy or make arrows constantly. You're twisting words.
10) Never said arrows should be overpowered. You're twisting words.
11) Never said to make content easier. You're twisting words.
You dodge questions, twist words, give delusional examples and straight up lie.
The difference between me and you is I want a good game, willing to entertain ideas, put forth different options to find a better way and know others may have better ideas. I'm open to that.
You just look at this as if it was an argument and only care about winning. When you enter a forum like this where it's a collaboration with your mentality then you've already lost. What's worse is the only person you lost to is yourself because no one else cares.
If he (I'm assuming it's a he) wishes to have ammo in his game, I'm sure there other ones which best fit his taste. If not, then he'll either have to accept that the game is not going to include ammo, or leave it.
Either way, we're all just gonna play without ammo to fret over and have a grand old time about it.
I wrote this in ranged weapon update feedback thread, I quote the quiver and ammunition part to here.
I don't like to prepare ammunition before every time I leave town and I need do boring task over and over between the hunting fun, I think it's okay to do it in a convenient way enough and make materials from different regions still valuable and important.
Hope this will help, and please note that I don't want to talk game design too detail so I only roughly give a direction you can imagine the rest.
↓Good youtube channel to learn things about creating games.↓
Masahiro Sakurai on Creating Games:
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCv1DvRY5PyHHt3KN9ghunuw
I see you aren't able to understand things are based on design, and you think people need to argue why arrows shouldn't be crafted which honestly is just stupid. That is on you to give reasoning why it will be fun and backed by design for that to be a thing.
Honestly you don't give a single good point you are simply saying "it is more real to have physical arrows." which is a trash point.
On the points you don't understand, you should not be advocating for this if you don't understand any concept of design.... you are honestly wasting my time replying to you.
You can't think of the effects, strengths or reasoning from a gameplay perspective....
You do realize when you put something in quotes you are saying that someone said those words, right? I never said what you quoted. Is lying fun for you or is it like an affliction?
Mag7spy - game plan for debates -
1) Make up fake quotes.
2) Lie.
3) Do not address anything said by the other party when caught in a Lie.
4) Do not address and any rebuttals by the other party.
5) Do not address any questions from the other party.
6) When call out and asked to give examples, turn the table and say examples are stupid.
7) When called out about anything else hide behind the magic "Game Design" shield.
7) The most important rule! Always make sure to never engage in any creative discussion at all.
Back to the smooth brain olympics I guess.
I literally addressed exactly the points you have brought up about time and money. Multiple times. The rest of what you offer are opinions. Where's the talking points? Where's the justifications? Where's any intelligence from what you have brought up at all?
Looks like you dropped the dunce cap, again.
Are not capable of understanding design or saying things based off design and you are mad above. If you have a bad idea and people agree don't cry about it. No one is going to argue for new systems when current one using magic is a great decision.
I can tell how emotional you are getting over this, taking criticism is most likely not your best suit. Nor being able to convince me to use arrows with not good ideas based on the design of the game. Instead you waste time talking about nonsense.
Game design isn't magic btw, if you say ideas that are not in line with the design no one is going to take them seriously. Keep talking about this fluff or wasting time complaining about quotes or lies which is simply just your own perspective and is fluff that will not help you push people crafting and buying tens of thousands of arrows for 0 or weak reasons. While also not using your brain and understanding my own points.
Let's ensure we follow the forum rules, especially rule 6: Be well unto others, and respect each other.
Let's also make sure we're remaining on-topic ^_^
---
I saw someone suggest different quiver / arrow effects which I thought was thought provoking. I'd love to hear your thoughts on different ammo types and if you have any favorite examples from other games.
This is the point of Alpha and Beta testing! ^_^
Steven has decided that bows will not have ammunition. That has been decided. However, as I mentioned before, If we receive overwhelming feedback during testing that players want ammunition, then we will of course make the consideration
Mag7spy - game plan for debates -
1) Make up fake quotes.
2) Lie.
3) Do not address anything said by the other party when caught in a Lie.
4) Do not address and any rebuttals by the other party.
5) Do not address any questions from the other party.
6) When call out and asked to give examples, turn the table and say examples are stupid.
7) When called out about anything else hide behind the magic "Game Design" shield.
7) The most important rule! Always make sure to never engage in any creative discussion at all.
Why are you copy pasting this again lmfao actually trolling.
Quiver can be a off hand (so bows would be the main hand and secondary weapon would be quiver) for gear pieces. You can allow some types of quivers to have a special effect you have access to special types of arrows so one example would be 20 arrows and it would have a duration as well before they would go away.
These arrows could have any amount of special stats or damage increase. So poison maybe could be done akin to elden ring as an example as if you get hit by enough it builds a stack and applies that effect to the target.
Bows could have their own type of effect on it, but the quiver would be able to override it allowing to potentially apply to different elemental stacks as well.
It could be a mix of a draw back and strength since there would be a clear cooldown based on the gear on how often you can use that buff and have access to those arrows for a set amount of shots.
Because you keep flagging my name. If you have ANYTHING to add to further game discussion based on common sense, logic, creative ideas then I am willing to listen and discuss that. You bring nothing to the conversation.
As it stands you refuse to acknowledge the points I have brought up, questions I bring up, you intentionally post fake quotes, you have lied multiple times and been caught doing it. You aren't interested in back and forth discussion to foster better ideas or game play. You only stick to the imbecilic idea of game design and realism arguments which is absurd. Have you ever considered how they have come to make the decisions that they have and that game design is a flexible concept? Of course not.
The "realism" stance is insanely ignorant as I am not the one that argued for, or against, realism. You were. 2 times I mentioned realistic or realism. The first time was in my first post in which, even a 5th grader can see, it's a word that can be switched out with the word "practical". Meaning I'm looking for an approach that makes sense. I thought that to be obvious especially when I mentioned mana arrows, cause we all know how real those are. You said mana arrows were naive but then, in typical fashion, wouldn't elaborate. It had absolutely nothing to do with realism in the game.
The second time was in a question to you. That question severed 2 purposes. First, was to see where your deciding line was when talking about realism so were could actually have a conversation that would forward ideas. The 2nd purpose was to see if you would answer it, which I was sure you wouldn't, and you didn't. In that case it told me exactly the type of person I was dealing with.
The realism argument is an argument of your own making. You are literally arguing with yourself. It makes me think of the adage "who's the bigger fool" with a new twist. The "game plan for debates" is very accurate and it is the only thing I will post in response to anything you post about me unless it pertains to the game AND furthers discussion of ideas. Since I do not believe you have the capacity for that then there is no point in talking to me, about me or flagging my name.
Mag7spy - game plan for debates -
1) Make up fake quotes.
2) Lie.
3) Do not address anything said by the other party when caught in a Lie.
4) Do not address and any rebuttals by the other party.
5) Do not address any questions from the other party.
6) When call out and asked to give examples, turn the table and say examples are stupid.
7) When called out about anything else hide behind the magic "Game Design" shield.
7) The most important rule! Always make sure to never engage in any creative discussion at all.
Did you not read the above post you can stop trolling now.
What do you think about mana arrows?
You wont answer.
Mag7spy - game plan for debates -
1) Make up fake quotes.
2) Lie.
3) Do not address anything said by the other party when caught in a Lie.
4) Do not address and any rebuttals by the other party.
5) Do not address any questions from the other party.
6) When call out and asked to give examples, turn the table and say examples are stupid.
7) When called out about anything else hide behind the magic "Game Design" shield.
7) The most important rule! Always make sure to never engage in any creative discussion at all.