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What I feel is a serious problem with AOCs class system and how to, at least partially fix it.
Ironhope
Member
While I love the concept of mixing base archetypes to obtain classes, I feel that the inability to start off (from lvl 1) as the class (fantasy-gameplay style) you want is going to be a pretty bitter pill to swallow for a lot of mmo-rpg fans.
You're probably going to have hundreds of thousands of people who are going to come into this and be like ''okay I want to start playing a warlock/dps holy knight/death knight/shaman/etc'' and find out... they just can't.
Which is a particularly bitter pill to swallow when the whole game is... well, an RPG.
A game where you get to form a personal connection with your character, with the first levels being the most critical-enjoyable in any case, serious period in this relationship.
And with the system as it is... well, that connection is sabotaged early on because you just can't play the class (fantasy/gameplay style you want).
For example, to play a dps holy knight (equivalent of WoW's retribution paladin) I will have to level a fighter (warrior) to level 25... but I don't want to play a warrior to that level, I want to play a dps melee heavy armour cleric. But if I play a melee heavy armour cleric I will never end up as a dps class.
So it's just a profoundly flawed system from this point of view and I'm aware there is no way this is going to change in any SIGNIFICANT WAY but...
but, hear me out
can we at least put some honey on the bitter pill?
Can we add some early on, holy/shadow/elemental/etc magic to the leveling warrior, cleric, mage, etc?
so that, a fighter wanting to end up as a highsword (equivalent of retribution paladin) can get some holy healing/dps/magic absorption spells earlier on?
Or a mage wanting to end up as a warlock can use shadow magic from early on, maybe have a cruse added to some of his spells, maybe even summon an imp or something under certain conditions.
I think that would at least help a bit.
You're probably going to have hundreds of thousands of people who are going to come into this and be like ''okay I want to start playing a warlock/dps holy knight/death knight/shaman/etc'' and find out... they just can't.
Which is a particularly bitter pill to swallow when the whole game is... well, an RPG.
A game where you get to form a personal connection with your character, with the first levels being the most critical-enjoyable in any case, serious period in this relationship.
And with the system as it is... well, that connection is sabotaged early on because you just can't play the class (fantasy/gameplay style you want).
For example, to play a dps holy knight (equivalent of WoW's retribution paladin) I will have to level a fighter (warrior) to level 25... but I don't want to play a warrior to that level, I want to play a dps melee heavy armour cleric. But if I play a melee heavy armour cleric I will never end up as a dps class.
So it's just a profoundly flawed system from this point of view and I'm aware there is no way this is going to change in any SIGNIFICANT WAY but...
but, hear me out
can we at least put some honey on the bitter pill?
Can we add some early on, holy/shadow/elemental/etc magic to the leveling warrior, cleric, mage, etc?
so that, a fighter wanting to end up as a highsword (equivalent of retribution paladin) can get some holy healing/dps/magic absorption spells earlier on?
Or a mage wanting to end up as a warlock can use shadow magic from early on, maybe have a cruse added to some of his spells, maybe even summon an imp or something under certain conditions.
I think that would at least help a bit.
2
Comments
And, then later, you can multi-class.
This isn't any different.
Secondary archetypes won't suddenly transform your class into something entirely different. You're just going to get different effects, visual effects and procs for the existing kit you have.
Such as a Fighter getting healing on his attacks if they choose Cleric, or a the Tank's gap-closer becoming an uninterruptible teleport by going the Mage route.
No concern that players will balk at this.
The 'sweet spot' of 'players who are serious enough to know exactly what role and class they want to play in a game' but also 'get sick of it and quit before they get there because it is taking too long' is a small set.
What it will probably do is create a lot of resentment/annoyance/'bad press' which might then spread OUT and discourage a few other people a little, particularly if this game does not release before the new big MMOs coming.
But I also think that the 'sweet spot' of players like that would react worse to your suggestion than to even the problem starting, so unfortunately, Intrepid might at least end up considering 'do I really want to fix this?'
Personally I definitely support people getting Secondary Archetype much EARLIER, but as you said, it's unlikely this is going to change, because there is probably a meaningful reason for it. Most likely a tradeoff somewhere.
What are you talking about? Bro, it's no different than any other MMO where you have to level up before you gain access to certain skills. What MMO are you thinking about where you start out with all abilities?
In Ashes, even though you may want to be a Warlock, you are actually a mage.
As such, the leveling process should highlight the fact that you actually are the primary archetype you picked. Playing the first 20 or so levels as just that archetype is a good thing, imo.
If you are playing as a Warlock, and only consider yourself a Warlock, you are doing yourself and those close to you in game a disservice. You are a mage, have access to all that a mage has, and should be making the best use of that whole archetype. The game allowing you to start out that initial made period with the feeling of a Sarlock rather than just a mage is the game assisting you in performing that disservice.
This is exactly what I'm imagining as well. In Guild Wars 1, you chose a primary and then a secondary class. You did yourself a huge disservice if you NEVER were willing to change your secondary class. I believe that this system will be similar.
I see what you're saying and how it could lead to a problem but I'm not sure that secondary classes will have that much effect on builds. The subspec is designed to accentuate what is already there. Stevens example was a warrior that charges to his enemy. If the subspec is mage then instead of charging to the enemy, with visible position change and movement speed, he will now blink to the enemy instantaneously. It's not intended to rewrite how a class works but to add different flavors.
I do think you are right about waiting too long for the secondary archetype though. They said max level (50) was designed to take roughly a month and a half, at the time frames they gave. Given that games typically level you up faster early on and the subclasses don't kick in until 25 that means people should be playing about 2 to 3 weeks before they can subspec. That does feel a bit long. There are plenty of classes to mix with and I'd rather start doing that earlier than later to find a setup that suits me better. Because of the number of subspecs possible, roughly 4 to 5 weeks more before max level, plus unlocking skills as you go and seeing which versions of the overall build you like better, I think a ton of people will be switching around secondary specs at max level a lot.
I've mentioned before that along with the character creator, launching before the game goes live, we should get a single person arena to try out different characters with higher level abilities so we have a better idea of which way we want to go. Adding the ability to try subspecs with this would be a nice bonus. Not to mention you'll have something to do after the game launches and you get stuck in a long queue.
If we are able to use a real-world example in a fantasy world, consider a grizzled and hardened gunnery sergeant in the USMC, a scary badass. She or he wasn't born that way, they went through high school, boot camp, served so well as a private first class they got promoted to corporal. Re-upped for another hitch and got sergeant, then another promotion and after a decade in the corps - or more - was made a gunny.
You gotta earn that second class in AoC, that is what makes it special. If you don't earn it, it means nothing.
By the same, in the mmos that give you the warlock experience right out the gates, you still dont have access to the cool stuff straight away..
You started a thread like this or was it three when you first joined the forums.
64 combinations is probably too much for a Level 1 player to choose from that is not familiar with the gameplay mechanics already.
I don't see how a heavy armor user can be both a cleric and DPS at the same time, which is not the usual role combination, clerics can be heavy armor but DPS pays the penalty of not being allowed heavy armor and tanks pay the penalty for using heavy armor with lower overall DPS.
Even with 64 combo's not every configuration will be available.
Still hung up on nomenclature and the IDEA that real world history has to be reflected in the game.
Intrepid is not allowed to do their own thing apparently
https://forums.ashesofcreation.com/discussion/51008/i-hope-the-devs-understand-that-for-many-its-either-having-fun-with-class-x-or-quitting-the-game#latest
We're not talking about a specialization, profession, etc we're talking about a class (a fantasy and/or a gameplay style) something which is generally available in most mmos from second 1.
Yeah it is, as explained in my post it's basically the nr1 rpg element in the game (your class choice).
No but a class is a class and not having core-fantasy classes available from second 1 when hundreds of thousands of people who are going to jump in this game will be traditional & dedicated warlocks/paladins/shamans/etc sucks and the solution I suggested at least partially fixes the problem and I would have appreciated to hear what you think about said solution not that you personally don't care about the issue.
You get your class (fantasy and gameplay style) from moment 1 of the mmo-rpg in most mmos. This is not the case here.
I'm not saying to start with ''all abilities'', I said no such thing and you're literally the only person who ''understood'' such a thing (in fact, you misunderstood what was being said).
I said it's a problem that you can't be a warlock from lvl 1, not that it's a problem that you can't be a warlock with all the warlock kit unlocked.
I suggested a method of at least lessening this issue. Something you ignored.
The two (mage and warlock) are two distinct fantasies, which is a visual and story element more than a gameplay one, an rpg element.
Someone who wants the mage fantasy will become an Archwizard.
Someone who wants to be a warlock will become... well, a warlock.
The problem is, the game discriminated, the mage-role loving player having access to the mage fantasy from lvl 1 while the warlock-role loving player having to wait for half of the journey (the most critical one).
We also know the two classes (the mage, archwizard fantasy and the warlock, warlock fantasy) will have diffent gameplay styles. How dramatic the difference will be is up for debate but it will realistically be something noticeable.
So again, you can't say the warlock was playing a warlock called ''mage'' from second 1.
I find the way you interpretend my criticism to be weird;
Picking a warlock will modify the mage abilities into somethign to fit the warlock fantasy and thus gameplay (which should reflect that fantasy).
How dramatic will those changes be? Who knows, what's relevant is they are there. But they (the whole fantasy) is there only late in the lvling process, which is really bad for someone who wanted to enter the mmo-rpg as a warlock, from lvl 1, which is the most intense, decisive and magical period for any new mmo-rpg (the first hours of play are the decisive ones).
But I never said the warlock should lose any connection to the mage base archetype abilities and I have no idea where you understood that from.
You didn't even touch my suggestion about offering a proto-warlock path (through talents) to leveling mages so they can start their warlock fantasy earlier on.
It's unknown exactly what impact it will have (massive or nearly cosmetic). I believe it's safe to assume it's going to be notable enough both in terms of looks and gameplay style but regardless, what's very much important as well is the class fantasy.
Class fantasy can come to as little as visuals and names and I'm suggesting they could at least offer that earlier on.
Depends.
Accentuate how?
By picking summoner as secondary class as a mage, I think it's safe to assume you're going to do some imp summoning at least, so you're going to do summoner stuff not more serious mage stuff.
That's a lot.
The most serious, intimate, critical period of bonding with your character has already passed by that time.
And you didn't even get to play the class you wanted.
And don't get me wrong, I love long lvling periods.
I'm just saying.... can we get some talents allowing archetypes to evoke the classes spirit from early on (such as a lvl 5 mage having access to... I don't know, shadowbolt, or a lvl 5 fighter having access to seal of righteousness so his attacks deal some holy damage)?
Would that be such a bad idea?
If warlocks/paladins/shamans/etc get cheated and can't play their fantasy from level 1, can't they at least taste it from lvl 1 (or 2, 3, 4, 5 at least?)?
1. So your response to valid criticism and a given solution was ad homniem remarks and slander.
2. I absolute do not. The topic you linked adressed the idea that Intrepid should focus on making as many classes as possible viable from launch (especially the core fantasy ones). This topic is about the fact you can't play the warlock/paladin/shaman/etc fantasies from lvl 1 although you can play others from lvl 1 + a suggestion from me about how to at least partially fix that.
I don't know if you were just too lazy to read what I wrote here or just ignored it out of malice so you could throw a random jab but yeah, you have no idea what you're talking about.
You're here just to pick a fight, like a total d**khead.
Intrepid explicitly asked for criticism and suggestions constantly.
So what's your problem besides having something up your a** and looking for a fight?
It's not as much about gameplay as it is about class fantasy.
Aren't warlock/shamans/paladins/etc base mmo-rpg classes you can play from lvl 1 in most mmo-rpgs?
Yes.
Why can you play the warrior/rogue/hunter/etc fantasy from lvl 1 but not the warlock/paladin/shaman/etc?
Whatever, it's a made decision.
I'm suggesting a partial solution, what do you think about it?
It's a fact a notable % of mmo-rpg players have very strong class preferences and many will strongly wish to pick warlock or paladin or shaman, etc (in any case, core-fantasy classes in virtually all rpgs) from lvl 1 but won't.
Your opinion that this is unreasonable is what is unreasonable.
In the top mmo-rpgs (wow and ff14) you can start any class fantasy from lvl 1 so I have no idea what you're talking about.
Here you won't be able to. You will be able to play other base rpg fantasies from lvl 1, but not others.
It is what it is (it's a taken creative decision), I'm suggesting an improvement to what already exists.
But you didn't even bother adressing that suggestion.
You tagged the wrong person.
You have beaten this drum before. No need to get emotional.
We need to wait for alpha 2 to see how it shakes out.
That said when you pick a mage it will always be a mage. Just because it now uses dark magic and a WoW imp doesn't make it anything else. It will still be a mage. We have had this discussion before. I thought you moved on.
But let's ask a question.
With the design being as it is. How could they implement your idea with out giving the secondary earlier?
We already know they plan to give various augments from various sources early but I see no way or reason the players should be allowed to take augments from the other archetypes at will, just because.
Are you asking for access to the thematics of a Secondary Archetype, with no mechanical changes? (or would you be satisfied by that) Or are you specifically asking for immediate access to additional mechanics?
So far it seems the secondary archetype choice won't change your role.
So if you choose cleric (healer) you won't ever be a dps. That's just what it is.
For the holy fantasy + dps gameplay you're going to have to go highsword.