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Check out Alpha Two Announcements here to see the latest news on Alpha Two.
Check out general Announcements here to see the latest news on Ashes of Creation & Intrepid Studios.
To get the quickest updates regarding Alpha Two, connect your Discord and Intrepid accounts here.
Comments
Then as I always say, it's our job to 'get it to a state where they won't all just ACTUALLY LEAVE' first.
I'm obviously not playing if it is Toggle PvP, I have Korean games for that.
People that don't like Korean games as much as I do just need to work with Intrepid to give what we can to make this not stupid for that set.
The daggers have always been out. Even here, for years, there are people who openly wave their dagger, and also the ones who try to mask it. But yeah I mean once the masses realize this game is actually coming out, it'll be full hostile takeover mode. Daggers turn into bazookas and tanks.
All we can do is win the debate. That will be easy. Problem is, you can win the argument but still lose the war.
What is 'winning the debate' here though?
IF we 'win the debate' but it is ALSO true that people don't want to play the game as we want it and we end up at Mortal Online 2 numbers, is that a win?
Hence the question. I don't know what it means to others, to 'win the debate'.
If we 'start infighting', the line will slip, that's my experience from overseeing development.
This would most likely require a few analytical pvers who can succinctly explain the core issues with owpvp. Is it purely the "I never want to die at the hands of another player" or is there more to it. And if there is in fact more, we can look at good ways of addressing that.
We already 'lost' our 'best one', thankfully they've promised to still help test.
But yes, we're definitely in a constant spiral of both sides flaming each other w/o real attempts at bringing themselves closer to the other side's pov. I've definitely been a part of that spiral, even if I try to only join it when the suggestion from the pve side is just "let's remove pvp outright".
It is virtually impossible for Ashes to end up at Mortal Online 2 numbers. That's a nonstarter. Two completely different games. MO2 is low budget, buggy, exploits, full pvp, full loot, bad content, bad itemization, I mean I could go on and on. I played MO1, not 2. Not trying to insult the series. They're fun lil sandbox games and they have their little niche audience.
But Ashes is leagues above MO2 in all ways. Even if Ashes had one of the more lenient versions of potential corruption systems, MO2 would still be a far more hardcore pvp mmo. Ashes successfully launching and having MO2 levels of player count is just not realistic.
But to answer your question, what is winning the debate, it's just winning the debate over whether Ashes should mostly stay true to it's vision, or should it start becoming like the stale, standard fare of most modern mmos. Winning the debate, I mean the debate is already won. Watch a LazyPeon video lol. But that's how you'd win, argue against what has become standard fare in so many modern mmos.
I'm confused about the "all the recent debate" part. Are you talking about people who learned about this game less than a month ago and don't like PvP MMORPGs, so they are asking for changes, PvE servers, etc. to make the game "good enough" for them?
If someone says that the PvP rules in Ashes are good, they're just as wrong as someone who says it's bad: nobody knows, not even Intrepid. Here's my idea: wait for Alpha 2 before saying the corruption system is either god tier or dogshit.
If it turns out that the PvP in Ashes is dogshit, (I hope that) the community will inform Intrepid and things will be improved. If it's good and it doesn't require any changes, the people who complain about it today will still complain about it then. You see, most people who complain about the corruption system are not against griefing or whatever else they say they are, they're against PvP itself.
At the end of the day, Ashes (or any other MMORPG) will die if it doesn't cater enough to the carebear audience, but there are many other PvE games out there, the genre doesn't need one more.
Ashes will hopefully be a better game overall and less P2W than most games out there, so let's just hope Intrepid is able to make the PvP in this game meaningful, fun and risky (for not only the victim) enough so that casuals and/or carebears will still play it.
It's easy to bring him back, just stop dividing the game into nullsec/lowsec/highsec zones. But, sadly, I believe that the player base/PvP rules segregation will only get worse.
Ok, well, if it's impossible, there's nothing to be concerned about.
In the end, the only thing that would ever give Steven reason to change perspective, I think, is numbers. If the debate is won, and the numbers will be fine, there's no reason for any concern at all.
I don't share this opinion, and I have concerns as a result, but they won't matter as long as you're right.
Like I said above, winning the debate is the easy part. You can still lose the war if you have a weak kneed developer.
I'm sure there are some people just waiting for Asmongold and his hordes to show up and wipe OW pvp in Ashes out. Cool. Well he's also coming for instances, fast travel, group finder, you name it. He's comin for it.
Obviously OW pvp is the number 1 target. Can't have high-ish budget games like that succeeding, must be eradicated. Lest we end up with more of them.
Edit: I just gotta say. I actually love Asmongold. He has some of the worst takes I've ever heard about what makes a good mmo. But I thoroughly enjoy watching him. And he's been going off in Overwatch 2 lately lol. Very entertaining.
He also runs his alt twitch account with no sub, no donations, no ads. Very cool, shows a humility that I appreciate. Feel like I'm demonizing the guy with some of the stuff I've said.
That's quite an assumption. And it's wrong. I really enjoy it. I have never, and would never, even consider playing on a PVE server. Some of my fondest mmo memories come from the danger associated with owpvp. My last couple years of MMO have been almost exclusively PVP, as PVE can become somewhat repetitive after enough time. PVP seems to retain it's freshness. Nothing like the unpredictability of human behavior.
https://forums.ashesofcreation.com/discussion/43850/pumped#latest
However, unlike some people who just rail for what they want with no consideration for the impact it will have on the game thriving well into the future, I know that too much unwanted owpvp will drive away a large portion of the player population. I want max population. That is critical to the game thriving, and imo is the #1 ingredient for a game to be fun.
Plus, IS asked for ideas, lol. Derp.
Yes, kinda. AKA, the masses. The masses are starting to show up. This is the future player base I referenced above.
Also talking about the many recent threads about OWPVP, gathering, and pvp griefing. Many more than just mine.
Oh, also talking about the dev discussion.
In fact, it seems so obvious what recent debate I was talking about, I need to ask myself, is this even a serious question?
Exactly this. So many people who rail against any idea to improve upon pvp in order to limit unwanted pvp just don't seem to get it. Many of these people are the toxic mmo "hardcore", and the reason the genre has been struggling. Just drive away people.
100%. Couldn't have said it better myself. This is the reason I'm throwing out ideas to refine owpvp. Well that and because the devs asked for it. I have a suspicion that they want the game to succeed as much as I do.
Yup.
Somehow I don't think this is an exaggeration.
It CAN'T be that 'PvP games fail' as a whole. Sure they're somewhat niche in a different way but it's not like people don't love League, Overwatch, etc.
People want to PvP, whatever their reason.
So why is it that PvP MMOs don't do as well over time? Why do PvE ones even get PvP-ish modes that have participants? Why are even the 'PvE players' looking forward to things like Sieges, Caravans, etc?
People just want some more agency in these situations than owPvP games COMMONLY give them. But that's just opinion, so I'll stick to the main part. PvP is great. Lots of people like it. Not all of those people like PvP MMOs. That seems kind of weird to me.
Yeah I agree. Too much owpvp would drive away players. Owpvp even existing at all, drives a certain amount of players away. So does not having it all, to a lesser extent. Having too much is worse and more damaging to the game than having too little. But how much is too much. How much is too little. Ultimately it's Steven's call. He'll listen to either extreme, then the middle, and hopefully decide on a reasonable amount.
I don't think it has to go for "max" numbers. If he was going for max numbers, he wouldn't be making a pvx game with open pvp. Max numbers in terms of what a pvx mmo can reasonably expect? Yes, get those numbers by hitting the perfect amount of owpvp, not too much, not too little. lol
PVE carebears:
- don't want to recruit a team of pvpers for their guild and work together as farmers and bodyguards
- they go to your dungeon or region and aggro all the mobs closer to you then they leave you to die
- lock the dungeons with their guild
- use auto loot boots
- do gold farms
- farm excessive amount of materials
- craft excessive ammount of items
- are responsible for the companies nerfing dungeons and entire regions
- are the most toxic in the forums, discord and reddit
- keep reporting innocent people trying to make others be banned
- they thank everybody else by shoving more gold and items in their own pockets
- after they get rich in the game then they become the most toxic arrogant people in the server and look down on everybody else
PVE carebears are the ultimate griefing machines, how can we be protected from them?
We can't, the only possibility a company can protect us from the carebears is by nerfing the entire game, that will be bad for everybody.
I don't understand why you want this people to be "protected" since they are the ones ruinning all games.
The carebears will have to make PVP alts or hire or invite to their guilds real PVPers that can fight for their jelly caberear bottoms.
Working together is content, all the carebears have to stop being a bunch of whinners and pay attention to their surroundings and consider that players who are murder machines can work in both ways... they can work with you or against you.
If there's the most badass guy where you live you should befriend him insteand of just whine about it.
STOP PLAYING MMOS AS IF IT WAS A SINGLE PLAYER GAME IN CREATIVE MODE.
These don't sound like carebears. They sound like corporate style guilds.
but to answer toward an idea for original post could be something as simple as 'if person has been killed often gives more corruption' and can have a UI indicator when attacked for what tier they are at if killed to try to reduce frequent harassment to one person
there just needs to be a lot of nuance to the way the game figures out corruption vs not to reduce griefing since the horrid option ways for it to function would be to have a type of TOS enforcement or it being too aggressive.
Long term; if the game has ways for small groups of people to control everything or is never able to figure out how to deal with bad griefing I will not play it as an mmo but a multiplayer game
thats nto going to stop people from killing you (:
and its also not fair. why should someone get special treatment? he an just group up
also, what about people who are known to attack everyone on sight? after they die enough, you will get extra corruption if you surprise kill that person. or maybe he has 2 accounts. his main and a cleric for heals and res. if you kill him, you wanna go red on the cleric. why should you get extra corruption for that? its not fair.
I've suggested a ladder-like system for Ashes before, but I'm pretty sure everyone disliked the concept itself. The alternative to a ladder is a complete equalization of pvp stats, but that can only apply to arena battles because in open world the stronger side will just win with numbers rather than pure skill.
I think Ashes just gotta have several "good samaritan" mechanics that would encourage people to help each other, cause, as proven by Asmon (and countless others), people will be utter and absolute dicks if given the chance to. Which obviously leads to their victims hating the system itself rather than the players, because it's not the players who did the bad thing it's the system that allowed them to do that.
Originally there was supposed system in place for this to be actual risk v reward related. You weren't going to be able to see someone's level meaning you wouldn't be able to know if they were higher or lower level than you. It was a great concept and something that shouldn't have been changed. Now the reason it got changed is because of all of the whining gankers complained that "it's not fair that I can't tell their level. How can I show them i'm a chad if I can't kill them if they're my level or higher?" so they bitched out of the idea. Once more, this was already something they thought about doing and instead decided against it and it's one of the systems i'm annoyed got declined.
The current corruption system, ''max number of guild members'' system combined with live service banning bots and gold sellers/buyers will prevent most griefing.
The game is good as it is and if problems are apparent during Alpha 2 or Beta or early release, Intrepid can always fix it by buffing the corruption system, reducing guild player number cap or giving more attention to bots/gold sellers/buyers.
This makes sense and this is not for PVP only, for PVE too... in PVE it is even worse because there's no way to stop them.
And alot of the world gonna be relativly rare.
Your probaly gonna see more PvE greifing of pulling mobs in you while u try and harvest or killa boss and so on tbh rather than PvP atleast in AoC u can flag up and kil them where in say newworld u couldnt just had to deal with them pulling mobs while they try and steal ur ori node when the mob agroed onto you :P