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PVE Loving Game Design Experts are Sprouting in Abundance

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Comments

  • AzheraeAzherae Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Azherae wrote: »
    Smork wrote: »
    Don't get your hopes up Abarat. Dygz says this game isn't for him about 10 times a day and he's still here. He has more copium supply than Narcs at this point.

    Is this genuinely this weird/difficult to grasp?

    That someone might decide to stay and help test or give feedback for a game they don't want to play?

    Or is this moreso the concept that you don't think the game needs their feedback/presence?

    Today's stream explicitly spelled out for me, for example, that I won't actually play this game past the initial sub that the Alpha One Tier covers. I had a line, Steven answered a question on stream that said outright "no we're crossing your line", and I mentally went 'oh ok that sucks, well, I should still do the testing'.

    But one could genuinely argue that 'people who don't want to play the game shouldn't be giving feedback that might change it'. Is that what this is?

    But why would you want to test and provide feedback for a game that you are fundamentally opposed to? One typically has better things to do in their life, and there are endless PvE grindfest treadmill MMOs out there to enjoy.

    I'm fundamentally opposed to ONE thing that will probably only kick in late into gameplay on any given server, though.

    Also, I DO have better things to do, so I've cut back on a lot of plans I had for playing and testing even, but why would that mean I wouldn't help test the things I am probably helpful at testing?

    Anyway, part of why this was an interesting question for me was because my group actually DOES plan to probably NOT spend time on playing or testing Ashes anymore. I just wondered 'what it takes for people to actually grasp that stance from someone who would be willing'.

    We're pretty WILLING to test Ashes a bit, and if we had lots of free time, we'd probably be willing to test Ashes a LOT, even with no intention of playing it. Dygz, afaik, has lots of 'free time' for this. I just couldn't figure out why 'I have a lot of time so I'll still help test systems and hope they get into other games' became 'you're totally gonna still play Ashes, you're supposed to actually leave when you say you're not going to play'.
    ♪ One Gummy Fish, two Gummy Fish, Red Gummy Fish, Blue Gummy Fish
  • Mag7spyMag7spy Member, Alpha Two
    Dygz wrote: »
    Better than what?
    I've tested tons of games that I didn't play.
    Especially games that my friends are working on.
    You seem to think testing games can't be interesting or informative.
    ??

    Why waste fleeting moments of your life doing free (or rather pay to do) QA for a game you'll never play? Is it a simple matter of curiosity? The kindness of your noble heart? And more vitally, how can you provide proper feedback to a game you're fundamentally opposed to? It's like me trying to tell FPS developers how to create the perfect FPS despite harboring a burning dislike for the genre. Who am I to tell them how to make something I don't enjoy 'fun'?

    He isn't testing the game for himself be it him liking it or not (to a certain extent for alpha 2 you can see how you feel about things as yes they are looking for feedback). Testing is to help developers so thereby helping his friends that work on it based on what he is saying.
  • DepravedDepraved Member, Alpha Two
    Azherae wrote: »
    Depraved wrote: »
    Azherae wrote: »
    Smork wrote: »
    Don't get your hopes up Abarat. Dygz says this game isn't for him about 10 times a day and he's still here. He has more copium supply than Narcs at this point.

    Is this genuinely this weird/difficult to grasp?

    That someone might decide to stay and help test or give feedback for a game they don't want to play?

    Or is this moreso the concept that you don't think the game needs their feedback/presence?

    Today's stream explicitly spelled out for me, for example, that I won't actually play this game past the initial sub that the Alpha One Tier covers. I had a line, Steven answered a question on stream that said outright "no we're crossing your line", and I mentally went 'oh ok that sucks, well, I should still do the testing'.

    But one could genuinely argue that 'people who don't want to play the game shouldn't be giving feedback that might change it'. Is that what this is?

    what was that line?

    "Open Seas are more rewarding."

    he probably meant more rewarding than staying near the shore?
    also, you will get to pvp for free anytime, thats fun ;3
  • AzheraeAzherae Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    edited October 2022
    Depraved wrote: »
    Azherae wrote: »
    Depraved wrote: »
    Azherae wrote: »
    Smork wrote: »
    Don't get your hopes up Abarat. Dygz says this game isn't for him about 10 times a day and he's still here. He has more copium supply than Narcs at this point.

    Is this genuinely this weird/difficult to grasp?

    That someone might decide to stay and help test or give feedback for a game they don't want to play?

    Or is this moreso the concept that you don't think the game needs their feedback/presence?

    Today's stream explicitly spelled out for me, for example, that I won't actually play this game past the initial sub that the Alpha One Tier covers. I had a line, Steven answered a question on stream that said outright "no we're crossing your line", and I mentally went 'oh ok that sucks, well, I should still do the testing'.

    But one could genuinely argue that 'people who don't want to play the game shouldn't be giving feedback that might change it'. Is that what this is?

    what was that line?

    "Open Seas are more rewarding."

    he probably meant more rewarding than staying near the shore?
    also, you will get to pvp for free anytime, thats fun ;3

    I'd be disappointed for many people if that was the extent of what it meant.

    I'd be happier for me, sure, but at what cost? What's the point of making an entire FFA PvP area, claiming that the reason for it is 'risk vs Reward', but having no rewards other than 'managing to trade'?

    That could have been done with Naval Caravans, as has been noted many times. Is the 'Reward' just 'getting to PvP and have Naval Combat freely'?

    Perhaps it is too early to assume that Steven meant that in a way that I consider unacceptable, but honestly, why stick around long enough to try to make absolutely sure of that? Especially when I think what I consider acceptable (assuming they are set on the FFA PvP zone) would make no sense to most people and make it seem like a gimmick?

    For now, I will take the Sandal Lord at his word that this is not a game for me.
    ♪ One Gummy Fish, two Gummy Fish, Red Gummy Fish, Blue Gummy Fish
  • DepravedDepraved Member, Alpha Two
    aww too bad :P
    i wanted to team up with nikr in game and kill u :pensive::disappointed:
  • Azherae wrote: »
    Depraved wrote: »
    Azherae wrote: »
    Smork wrote: »
    Don't get your hopes up Abarat. Dygz says this game isn't for him about 10 times a day and he's still here. He has more copium supply than Narcs at this point.

    Is this genuinely this weird/difficult to grasp?

    That someone might decide to stay and help test or give feedback for a game they don't want to play?

    Or is this moreso the concept that you don't think the game needs their feedback/presence?

    Today's stream explicitly spelled out for me, for example, that I won't actually play this game past the initial sub that the Alpha One Tier covers. I had a line, Steven answered a question on stream that said outright "no we're crossing your line", and I mentally went 'oh ok that sucks, well, I should still do the testing'.

    But one could genuinely argue that 'people who don't want to play the game shouldn't be giving feedback that might change it'. Is that what this is?

    what was that line?

    "Open Seas are more rewarding."

    @Azherae it bothers you that after a raid you cannot be sure that those rare drops are yours and must still be defended until shipped back to the node? Actually this makes me hopeful again.
    Because based on Steven's vision mentioned in the stream, the mithril node in the cave can be defended only by declaring a guild war.
    You have the same mentality of a common gatherer, that once the item was picked up, it is yours.
    But the gatherers are not innocent either, in this game which will highlight how their greed destroys the environment.
    Completing raids against NPCs might be easier than defending the materials you got.
    Becoming an important person who can influence the forces on the sea is the best choice.
    I think streamers will like this game and their followers will love the streamers even more.
    It's all about politics.
    September 12. 2022: Being naked can also be used to bring a skilled artisan to different freeholds... Don't summon family!
  • Azherae wrote: »
    NiKr wrote: »
    Azherae wrote: »
    "Open Seas are more rewarding."
    W/o concrete info to me that still sounds like a weak justification and hype-building. But no matter what it is, it definitely does point in a direction that could be interpreted in not the best of ways.

    Well, that would be another good reason to stick around and test, but just from my own entirely speculative design 'sense', the REST of what Steven said on stream backs it up.

    @BaSkA13 has been the most right of us all along, imo.

    Corruption is going to be very harsh, by DESIGN, and Open Seas are 'to make up for it', but also 'more rewarding'.

    Not the style of game I play, and I can't even have a different reaction than Dygz does so I once again wonder about it.

    "And that's OK."

    I like lots of OTHER things, lots of OTHER concepts that are part of Ashes. In my (arrogant?) mind, I could test those and still give good feedback on those.

    If you cannot be a great politician loved by the masses then you will have to work for one. He might need your skills.
    September 12. 2022: Being naked can also be used to bring a skilled artisan to different freeholds... Don't summon family!
  • AzheraeAzherae Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    edited October 2022
    Strevi wrote: »
    Azherae wrote: »
    Depraved wrote: »
    Azherae wrote: »
    Smork wrote: »
    Don't get your hopes up Abarat. Dygz says this game isn't for him about 10 times a day and he's still here. He has more copium supply than Narcs at this point.

    Is this genuinely this weird/difficult to grasp?

    That someone might decide to stay and help test or give feedback for a game they don't want to play?

    Or is this moreso the concept that you don't think the game needs their feedback/presence?

    Today's stream explicitly spelled out for me, for example, that I won't actually play this game past the initial sub that the Alpha One Tier covers. I had a line, Steven answered a question on stream that said outright "no we're crossing your line", and I mentally went 'oh ok that sucks, well, I should still do the testing'.

    But one could genuinely argue that 'people who don't want to play the game shouldn't be giving feedback that might change it'. Is that what this is?

    what was that line?

    "Open Seas are more rewarding."

    @Azherae it bothers you that after a raid you cannot be sure that those rare drops are yours and must still be defended until shipped back to the node? Actually this makes me hopeful again.
    Because based on Steven's vision mentioned in the stream, the mithril node in the cave can be defended only by declaring a guild war.
    You have the same mentality of a common gatherer, that once the item was picked up, it is yours.
    But the gatherers are not innocent either, in this game which will highlight how their greed destroys the environment.
    Completing raids against NPCs might be easier than defending the materials you got.
    Becoming an important person who can influence the forces on the sea is the best choice.
    I think streamers will like this game and their followers will love the streamers even more.
    It's all about politics.

    I don't know what you're talking about, once again, but honestly, I was getting pretty tired of dealing with y'all weird-ass takes on everything anyway.

    How the fuck you got to something bothering me after a raid from that one line baffles me, but at this point, whatever you wanna imagine I mean, feel, or think is fine with me.
    ♪ One Gummy Fish, two Gummy Fish, Red Gummy Fish, Blue Gummy Fish
  • Azherae wrote: »
    Strevi wrote: »
    Azherae wrote: »
    Depraved wrote: »
    Azherae wrote: »
    Smork wrote: »
    Don't get your hopes up Abarat. Dygz says this game isn't for him about 10 times a day and he's still here. He has more copium supply than Narcs at this point.

    Is this genuinely this weird/difficult to grasp?

    That someone might decide to stay and help test or give feedback for a game they don't want to play?

    Or is this moreso the concept that you don't think the game needs their feedback/presence?

    Today's stream explicitly spelled out for me, for example, that I won't actually play this game past the initial sub that the Alpha One Tier covers. I had a line, Steven answered a question on stream that said outright "no we're crossing your line", and I mentally went 'oh ok that sucks, well, I should still do the testing'.

    But one could genuinely argue that 'people who don't want to play the game shouldn't be giving feedback that might change it'. Is that what this is?

    what was that line?

    "Open Seas are more rewarding."

    @Azherae it bothers you that after a raid you cannot be sure that those rare drops are yours and must still be defended until shipped back to the node? Actually this makes me hopeful again.
    Because based on Steven's vision mentioned in the stream, the mithril node in the cave can be defended only by declaring a guild war.
    You have the same mentality of a common gatherer, that once the item was picked up, it is yours.
    But the gatherers are not innocent either, in this game which will highlight how their greed destroys the environment.
    Completing raids against NPCs might be easier than defending the materials you got.
    Becoming an important person who can influence the forces on the sea is the best choice.
    I think streamers will like this game and their followers will love the streamers even more.
    It's all about politics.

    I don't know what you're talking about, once again, but honestly, I was getting pretty tired of dealing with y'all weird-ass takes on everything anyway.

    How the fuck you got to something bothering me after a raid from that one line baffles me, but at this point, whatever you wanna imagine I mean, feel, or think is fine with me.

    @Azherae I was asking if that bothers you and why.
    Your emotional response reveals more about you than about the reason of why the ocean being more rewarding bothers you.
    Try to be clear and then there will be no questions. Only emotional reactions from those who are emotionally influenced by your decision.
    September 12. 2022: Being naked can also be used to bring a skilled artisan to different freeholds... Don't summon family!
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack, Alpha Two
    edited October 2022
    Azherae wrote: »
    Today's stream explicitly spelled out for me, for example, that I won't actually play this game past the initial sub that the Alpha One Tier covers. I had a line, Steven answered a question on stream that said outright "no we're crossing your line", and I mentally went 'oh ok that sucks, well, I should still do the testing'.

    I don't 'do' developer questions, however, someone should ask the following in the next livestream.

    "You seem to still consider Ashes a PvX game rather than a PvP game. When other games in the genre such as L2, Archeage, BDO and Albion are considered PvP games and seem to have as much or more PvE/X as Ashes, how do you continue to justify not dropping the PvX moniker and just calling Ashes a PvP game at this point, other than negative optics?"

    Probably the only question I would be interested in hearing an answer from Steven on.
  • StreviStrevi Member
    edited October 2022
    Dygz wrote: »
    Better than what?
    I've tested tons of games that I didn't play.
    Especially games that my friends are working on.
    You seem to think testing games can't be interesting or informative.
    ??

    Why waste fleeting moments of your life doing free (or rather pay to do) QA for a game you'll never play? Is it a simple matter of curiosity? The kindness of your noble heart? And more vitally, how can you provide proper feedback to a game you're fundamentally opposed to? It's like me trying to tell FPS developers how to create the perfect FPS despite harboring a burning dislike for the genre. Who am I to tell them how to make something I don't enjoy 'fun'?
    @ClintHardwood There is fun in finding bugs and reporting them.
    Also during testing you see aspects of a game which will be lost later.
    And dying as a tester has a different emotional impact than dying while trying to play the game.
    Have you ever tested before games or other products professionally like @Dygz seems to want to do?
    September 12. 2022: Being naked can also be used to bring a skilled artisan to different freeholds... Don't summon family!
  • AzheraeAzherae Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    edited October 2022
    Strevi wrote: »
    Azherae wrote: »
    Strevi wrote: »
    Azherae wrote: »
    Depraved wrote: »
    Azherae wrote: »
    Smork wrote: »
    Don't get your hopes up Abarat. Dygz says this game isn't for him about 10 times a day and he's still here. He has more copium supply than Narcs at this point.

    Is this genuinely this weird/difficult to grasp?

    That someone might decide to stay and help test or give feedback for a game they don't want to play?

    Or is this moreso the concept that you don't think the game needs their feedback/presence?

    Today's stream explicitly spelled out for me, for example, that I won't actually play this game past the initial sub that the Alpha One Tier covers. I had a line, Steven answered a question on stream that said outright "no we're crossing your line", and I mentally went 'oh ok that sucks, well, I should still do the testing'.

    But one could genuinely argue that 'people who don't want to play the game shouldn't be giving feedback that might change it'. Is that what this is?

    what was that line?

    "Open Seas are more rewarding."

    @Azherae it bothers you that after a raid you cannot be sure that those rare drops are yours and must still be defended until shipped back to the node? Actually this makes me hopeful again.
    Because based on Steven's vision mentioned in the stream, the mithril node in the cave can be defended only by declaring a guild war.
    You have the same mentality of a common gatherer, that once the item was picked up, it is yours.
    But the gatherers are not innocent either, in this game which will highlight how their greed destroys the environment.
    Completing raids against NPCs might be easier than defending the materials you got.
    Becoming an important person who can influence the forces on the sea is the best choice.
    I think streamers will like this game and their followers will love the streamers even more.
    It's all about politics.

    I don't know what you're talking about, once again, but honestly, I was getting pretty tired of dealing with y'all weird-ass takes on everything anyway.

    How the fuck you got to something bothering me after a raid from that one line baffles me, but at this point, whatever you wanna imagine I mean, feel, or think is fine with me.

    @Azherae I was asking if that bothers you and why.
    Your emotional response reveals more about you than about the reason of why the ocean being more rewarding bothers you.
    Try to be clear and then there will be no questions. Only emotional reactions from those who are emotionally influenced by your decision.

    Ok so you're telling me that you 'became hopeful again' by asking me a question that you didn't have ANY concept of your own trumped up idea of the answer to?

    And then didn't go into some ass-backward tirade about my 'mentality'?

    Are you serious right now?

    "Don't get emotional"? Ah sure, except that you are literally spewing garbage for no reason other than that you MAKE SHIT UP that you feel like believing about someone else, OR you're trying to troll me.

    I'm not getting my ass banned today due to your asinine goading, but congratulations, you HAVE managed to piss me off with it. Feel free to celebrate if that was your goal, and if not, shame on you for once again missing the damn point AND not managing to even begin to communicate properly.

    Anyways, IF you are capable of trying to actually understand someone else's point of view without projecting whatever it is you need to believe to make yourself feel better about your random stances, consider this perhaps, as the 'counter' to your ... whatever the fuck that was...

    "I don't care if the cool ocean Raid boss drops anything at all."

    If you can figure out why I might not like the Open Seas change WHILE that fact exists, maybe you will feel even better.

    EDIT: Ah, no, it wasn't even 'don't get emotional'.

    It was explicitly 'I'm going to imagine stuff to believe about you again based on your emotional response'.

    Which is even more messed up than the first one.

    I believe the main thing it 'reveals about me' is that I'm a venomous angry person who easily gets sick of putting up with stupid shit from people who just build strawmen in their minds to burn while feeling cosy and warm in the metaphorical fire as if they understand others and therefore have well-considered opinions.

    If you were not aware of that before, that's fine, you're relatively new. Now you know.
    ♪ One Gummy Fish, two Gummy Fish, Red Gummy Fish, Blue Gummy Fish
  • Azherae wrote: »
    Strevi wrote: »
    Azherae wrote: »
    Strevi wrote: »
    Azherae wrote: »
    Depraved wrote: »
    Azherae wrote: »
    Smork wrote: »
    Don't get your hopes up Abarat. Dygz says this game isn't for him about 10 times a day and he's still here. He has more copium supply than Narcs at this point.

    Is this genuinely this weird/difficult to grasp?

    That someone might decide to stay and help test or give feedback for a game they don't want to play?

    Or is this moreso the concept that you don't think the game needs their feedback/presence?

    Today's stream explicitly spelled out for me, for example, that I won't actually play this game past the initial sub that the Alpha One Tier covers. I had a line, Steven answered a question on stream that said outright "no we're crossing your line", and I mentally went 'oh ok that sucks, well, I should still do the testing'.

    But one could genuinely argue that 'people who don't want to play the game shouldn't be giving feedback that might change it'. Is that what this is?

    what was that line?

    "Open Seas are more rewarding."

    @Azherae it bothers you that after a raid you cannot be sure that those rare drops are yours and must still be defended until shipped back to the node? Actually this makes me hopeful again.
    Because based on Steven's vision mentioned in the stream, the mithril node in the cave can be defended only by declaring a guild war.
    You have the same mentality of a common gatherer, that once the item was picked up, it is yours.
    But the gatherers are not innocent either, in this game which will highlight how their greed destroys the environment.
    Completing raids against NPCs might be easier than defending the materials you got.
    Becoming an important person who can influence the forces on the sea is the best choice.
    I think streamers will like this game and their followers will love the streamers even more.
    It's all about politics.

    I don't know what you're talking about, once again, but honestly, I was getting pretty tired of dealing with y'all weird-ass takes on everything anyway.

    How the fuck you got to something bothering me after a raid from that one line baffles me, but at this point, whatever you wanna imagine I mean, feel, or think is fine with me.

    @Azherae I was asking if that bothers you and why.
    Your emotional response reveals more about you than about the reason of why the ocean being more rewarding bothers you.
    Try to be clear and then there will be no questions. Only emotional reactions from those who are emotionally influenced by your decision.

    Ok so you're telling me that you 'became hopeful again' by asking me a question that you didn't have ANY concept of your own trumped up idea of the answer to?

    And then didn't go into some ass-backward tirade about my 'mentality'?

    Are you serious right now?

    "Don't get emotional"? Ah sure, except that you are literally spewing garbage for no reason other than that you MAKE SHIT UP that you feel like believing about someone else, OR you're trying to troll me.

    I'm not getting my ass banned today due to your asinine goading, but congratulations, you HAVE managed to piss me off with it. Feel free to celebrate if that was your goal, and if not, shame on you for once again missing the damn point AND not managing to even begin to communicate properly.

    Anyways, IF you are capable of trying to actually understand someone else's point of view without projecting whatever it is you need to believe to make yourself feel better about your random stances, consider this perhaps, as the 'counter' to your ... whatever the fuck that was...

    "I don't care if the cool ocean Raid boss drops anything at all."

    If you can figure out why I might not like the Open Seas change WHILE that fact exists, maybe you will feel even better.

    EDIT: Ah, no, it wasn't even 'don't get emotional'.

    It was explicitly 'I'm going to imagine stuff to believe about you again based on your emotional response'.

    Which is even more messed up than the first one.

    I believe the main thing it 'reveals about me' is that I'm a venomous angry person who easily gets sick of putting up with stupid shit from people who just build strawmen in their minds to burn while feeling cosy and warm in the metaphorical fire as if they understand others and therefore have well-considered opinions.

    If you were not aware of that before, that's fine, you're relatively new. Now you know.

    Wow.
    I was not aware I have such a power.
    I'll have to go read all the posts in this thread.
    I was basically trying to catch up with the posts and I selected yours without having the patience to read all the other in the thread.
    I'll assume you was emotionally close to the limit after interacting with others and due to whatever Steven's statement means to you.
    September 12. 2022: Being naked can also be used to bring a skilled artisan to different freeholds... Don't summon family!
  • LudulluLudullu Member, Alpha Two
    Depraved wrote: »
    aww too bad :P
    i wanted to team up with nikr in game and kill u :pensive::disappointed:
    Why would I want to kill Azherae?! I wanted to help her test the game! Though I guess the latter includes the former :D
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack, Alpha Two
    Strevi wrote: »
    I was basically trying to catch up with the posts and I selected yours without having the patience to read all the other in the thread.
    I mean, reading isn't hard. Why come to a forum if you are unwilling to read?
  • Noaani wrote: »
    Strevi wrote: »
    I was basically trying to catch up with the posts and I selected yours without having the patience to read all the other in the thread.
    I mean, reading isn't hard. Why come to a forum if you are unwilling to read?

    I used to read a lot in the past but for some reason I lost patience. :disappointed:
    I do not understand those who live on forums and demand others to use the search function and avoid making posts on the same topic over and over. But I did my best and read all the posts in an old thread Azherae pointed to me. That was the biggest achievement so far for me.
    https://forums.ashesofcreation.com/discussion/comment/365847/#Comment_365847
    September 12. 2022: Being naked can also be used to bring a skilled artisan to different freeholds... Don't summon family!
  • It's a PvX game, you have to PvP and PvE to experience the game to the fullest extent, you may possibly play 90% pvp or 90% pve if you choose but that does not change it from a PvX.
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