Camps in EQ 100% had the etiquette you claimed never or will never existed.
Well...I think I'll take everything back then. Never played EQ. Aren't you contradicting yourself though, by stating that people were blacklisted and did train mobs? So there was an elite that decided who adhered to the rules and who didn't? What if I didn't belong to that group? 100%....really?
I agree with OP, I should be able to pvp you from taking my spot.
This is where i disagree and where I think, that what we know about the game mechanics so far, does not support the way you want to play the game.
Not just in the spot claiming scenario, but in much broader terms like spot grinding, minmaxing, "bullied" into grouping, content blocking and even PvP mechanics in general.
I don't think I'm contradicting myself. I said 100% because EQ did in fact have the etiquette you said didn't exist. I didn't say 100% of people adhered to it, it was considered common etiquette, there was no elitism about it. You could pve grief in other ways, such as dispelling an enchanter's charm, ninja pulling nameds out of a camp, etc.
And your right, if the game just lets people pve grief and I have no reasonable recourse, then yeah its probably not a game I really want to play. There's plenty of games like that already. Which is why I went on in my next post to point out why I haven't bought into Alpha 2 yet. The green/purple/red system combined with corruption seems so detrimental that I think the majority of players will never risk going red, let alone going deep red, which then in turn limits the Bounty Hunter system because there won't be many bounties.
I'm also not advocating for a murder-box either. I just think that a PvX sandbox should allow for a decent amount of OWPvP before the harsh penalties come into play. I don't gank lowbies, I don't spawn camp lowbies, that's not enjoyable to me. If some dbag was ganking/camping lowbies, that's the type of person I'd like to kill repeatedly. More often than not I let people play but if the opportunity arises for me to kill someone that benefits me, I want to be able to take it without then being hamstrung from a single act. If I do it too much then sure there should be repercussions.
I'm not sure exactly what you mean by your last point? Are you saying that you don't want grind spots to be contested? Isn't that the point of it being OW and not instanced? The whole risk v reward thing? I love the idea of camping a very lucrative area with a group and having to potentially defend it against others that want that spot as well. You might disagree, but it doesn't make either of our ideas invalid, this is a forum for feedback after all. As I said, there are plenty of games that play the way you want already, I'd like for one to play the way I want which AoC could be, but I don't see it happening with the current iteration of the system on paper.
In general we can't be sure if it's griefing if the player is using all game mechanics correctly and the systems are working correctly, you don't know the reasons why a player is doing something.
He could be just experiencing the game and learning stuff.
PvE means: A handful of coins and a bag of boredom.
We won't get to the bottom of that, because it touches on what etiquette and unspoken moral rules are and how they are agreed upon. Let's just say, I'm happy, that your experiences were good. I had other experiences and only heard those etiquette arguments, when someone didn't get his way(no...etiquette is 2 out of 3....no i wasn't ready....etc). The specifics of the etiquette were always very situation specific and my fellow guildies, who quoted it the most, were often the biggest griefers themselfs. So I've heard it since I started playing myself(it always existed), but the rules were always very subjective(so it never existed).
... if the game just lets people pve grief and I have no reasonable recourse...corruption seems so detrimental that I think the majority of players will never risk going red
No, the green player gets debuffed too and that's wanted. If it works, there would be no point for a PvEer to go back and die again, because even if you left, he couldn't take over the spot(bbecause of debuffs). Working as intended(hopefully). I'm sharing your concern about the bounty hunter system. We'll see.
...I'm not sure exactly what you mean by your last point?
Yep. Let me try to explain. We are talking about grindspots, rotations and minmaxing. If you read into, what is known about the game mechanics and Stevens vision for the game, you'll see, that all that is irrelevant. The world is meant to be dynamic and always changing. It won't be efficiant to grind a mobcamp on respawn because they might vanish alltogether. So things, like taking over/contesting a rotation from someone who finished is stupid, because he already devalued the spot. The spot that was perfect for you yesterday might be too high today, because the node leveled up. It might be gone, because the node was destroyed.
I think Steven doesn't want the minmaxing, best-grindspot approach for AoC. He also doesn't want owPvP to be about spot contesting/PvE griefing/griefing. There will be plenty of mechanics(sieges/wars/caravans) that allow you to PvP wîthout corruption and plenty of reasons to owPvP(node wars/economic wars/preventing neighours to grow etc.). There will be no reason to defend your spot and going red for it and no reoson to accrue death penalties, by dying someone out of it.
Well....there's always a reason, I guess. That's why you're allowed to do it, if you take the risk of going red.
Having come from Black Desert, there was this huge issue with "weaker" players griefing you while you were grinding.
I don't know how grindy this game will be, probably not as much as black desert but I suppose there will still be some grinding involved.
With the corruption system in place we can't just kill that guy that comes into our rotation and disrupts it continuously with the goal of kicking you off said grinding spot. How is one supposed to deal with that?
I've had a fair share of such encouters and these people were not generally very keen on speaking and being civil about it.
How is this issue going to be handled? How can one defend one's grinding spot?
Best regards!
Why is it your spot? Do you own the mobs? Did you buy the spot? They have the same right as you to be there.
yeah but if there are more spots, why do they have to come to where you are?
Why does that apply to the late comer and not you that are there from the start? If there are other spots why don't YOU leave?
you are arguing for the sake of arguing. but ok ill play along.
lets say im farming in area, alone, theres 5 spots and they al have the same mobs. 1 is occupied by me and the other 4 are empty. some dude comes to the area and start killing mobs where i am killing them. ill leave and go to one of the other spots, then he follows me and starts killing in the new spot as well. then i leave again and he follows me and repeats. isnt that griefing?
I think it may be tuneable so killing players of the same level doesn’t effect your corruption to much but we will have to see how it’s implemented. The no cc on green players would be a bit annoying but as you get the first hit maybe ok and can see how it prevents some annoying cc of tanks etc.
The main question is should u be able to stake a claim on a spot and enforce your claim by force. I would say yes as conflict enhances my experience mainly because I in my experience it encourages the safety in numbers mentally rather than relying on group xp bonuses.
You do end up will play sessions where you essentially have no progress because of the contesting and/or inability to get a decent group together which is what I think turns people of the always on pvp type of server/game. As I tend to play group pvp type activities a lot at max level the idea of having my lvling progress stopped by pvp really doesn’t bother me.
I think all everyone wants is a PvX game where things can be contested.
Steven spoke a lot about risk vs reward, and I like that, but what is the risk for someone that is just passively griefing someone else without getting involved in PvP? The reward may very well be just annoying the other person, and even if the other person kills the griefer a few times it will, eventually, become much easier for the griefer to just kill the person due to how the corruption system works.
We won't get to the bottom of that, because it touches on what etiquette and unspoken moral rules are and how they are agreed upon. Let's just say, I'm happy, that your experiences were good. I had other experiences and only heard those etiquette arguments, when someone didn't get his way(no...etiquette is 2 out of 3....no i wasn't ready....etc). The specifics of the etiquette were always very situation specific and my fellow guildies, who quoted it the most, were often the biggest griefers themselfs. So I've heard it since I started playing myself(it always existed), but the rules were always very subjective(so it never existed).
... if the game just lets people pve grief and I have no reasonable recourse...corruption seems so detrimental that I think the majority of players will never risk going red
No, the green player gets debuffed too and that's wanted. If it works, there would be no point for a PvEer to go back and die again, because even if you left, he couldn't take over the spot(bbecause of debuffs). Working as intended(hopefully). I'm sharing your concern about the bounty hunter system. We'll see.
...I'm not sure exactly what you mean by your last point?
Yep. Let me try to explain. We are talking about grindspots, rotations and minmaxing. If you read into, what is known about the game mechanics and Stevens vision for the game, you'll see, that all that is irrelevant. The world is meant to be dynamic and always changing. It won't be efficiant to grind a mobcamp on respawn because they might vanish alltogether. So things, like taking over/contesting a rotation from someone who finished is stupid, because he already devalued the spot. The spot that was perfect for you yesterday might be too high today, because the node leveled up. It might be gone, because the node was destroyed.
I think Steven doesn't want the minmaxing, best-grindspot approach for AoC. He also doesn't want owPvP to be about spot contesting/PvE griefing/griefing. There will be plenty of mechanics(sieges/wars/caravans) that allow you to PvP wîthout corruption and plenty of reasons to owPvP(node wars/economic wars/preventing neighours to grow etc.). There will be no reason to defend your spot and going red for it and no reoson to accrue death penalties, by dying someone out of it.
Well....there's always a reason, I guess. That's why your allowed to do it, if you take the risk of going red.
1) I think that's semantics at that point, but I will just say as I said it was common etiquette. No one disputed it. People who didn't extend that courtesy were ostracized. /shrug
2) What are the penalties a green player gets? Obviously any dropped loot (from what I read from Alpha 1 players, was insignificant), but I haven't read about any debuffs a green player would receive? Just a generic death penalty?
3) Interesting, I have not read about this. Could you provide a link? That could certainly change things, but I'm curious how they could implement this. Sounds cool. I enjoyed Lower Guk (very good group dungeon Kunark-era EQ), but spending everyday there could get old. Regardless of the "dynamic" system, people will find "the best" spot and competition will ensue. In a group, the system is a lot more manageable since you could try to spread out the KB's, but in a solo situation there doesn't seem to be much recourse.
I don't disagree there are plenty of opportunities for PvP corruption free and that's great. But if Steven doesn't want OwPvP to be about contesting things, then what is it supposed to be about? My concern is if it's not in those areas, the penalties are so harsh that no almost one will do it which at that point why have it at all, and again, it then invalidates the BH system.
4)I think most of my concerns would be alleviated by red not being a thing until a certain threshold, similar to old school UO. You didn't go red until you had a certain amount of kills in a certain amount of time, and you didn't have an exact idea of where you were so you had to take the risk if you wanted that kill or not. Or you just didn't care and went red with everything that went with it. That makes a lot more sense to me, prevents a lot of griefing both pvp/pve, and makes it easily adjustable by tweaking numbers. My 2cp.
A non-combatant (green player) who dies suffers normal penalties, which include:[6]
Experience debt (negative experience).[9]
Skill and stat dampening.[6]
Lower health and mana.[6]
Lower gear proficiency.[6]
Reduction in drop rates from monsters.[10]
Durability loss.[11][12][6]
At 14:40 they start talking about the land health management and that everything players do in a region has a systemic impact on the region. If he talks about player agency he always explains it as the systemic impact a players actions have on his environments. He hasn't explicitely said anything on let us say a centaur village yet, but I strongly expect that grindspots aren't the only thing that is excempt from these changes.
But if Steven doesn't want OwPvP to be about contesting things, then what is it supposed to be about?
Steven calls it soft friction. It is not as much about what is mine and what is yours, but more about what are your guild's/node mayor's goals. Hard to explain without quoting the whole wiki. https://ashesofcreation.wiki/
It's the whole risk vs reward calculation. Is it worth invading the neighbouring node and, if as a reward your node levels faster? You risk going red, but it might be worth or the better perks of your node. The stronger and bigger the raid party is, the safer. The whole solo player part of owPvP is discouraged, group actions are incentivized(for example by mayor quests). But it might still be a nice and fast profit if you can kill a gatherer and his mule and get away with it.
Isn't it sad, that there is such a strong mold of how owPvP and PvP focused games have to be, that everybody thinks he knows exactly what is meant. I don't think many have realized that PvX means "not a PvEer game" AND "not a PvPer game".
if the other person kills the griefer a few times it will, eventually, become much easier for the griefer to just kill the person due to how the corruption system works.
I admit the system is still very much open to abuse by someone just following you around getting in your way, but could be some tuning that would limit it and allow you some control by force.
If the passive griefer gets killed a few times they could potentially get xp loses as well. If the corruption negatives from killing a same level player a few times is low enough in comparison.
We also havnt seen the respawn distance/system. If they respawn some distance away and that allows you to grind of your corruption before they can make it back then that could work.
If you end up having to keep on killing lots of different players to keep your spot clear then time to probably give up and live with them for a while at least.
if the other person kills the griefer a few times it will, eventually, become much easier for the griefer to just kill the person due to how the corruption system works.
I admit the system is still very much open to abuse by someone just following you around getting in your way, but could be some tuning that would limit it and allow you some control by force.
If the passive griefer gets killed a few times they could potentially get xp loses as well. If the corruption negatives from killing a same level player a few times is low enough in comparison.
We also havnt seen the respawn distance/system. If they respawn some distance away and that allows you to grind of your corruption before they can make it back then that could work.
If you end up having to keep on killing lots of different players to keep your spot clear then time to probably give up and live with them for a while at least.
Very interesting, thanks for your input! Really hoping they address this kind of thing. Contesting things is always fun!
@Kubitz2 Thanks for the links. I consider myself a PvX player, who typically prefers the PvP side of things because of the more dynamic nature in inherently has, but I still do the gathering/crafting/raiding because its another way to progress my character. But some of the most fun PvP I've had are the true PvX activities. Stealing/Defending trade runs, contesting plots for lands or building structures, fighting a world boss and the enemy faction at the same time, which is what appealed to me about AoC. I hope they can deliver.
I also agree with @Frostywombat that this is a lot of speculation until we actually get to see it in practice. On paper at least, I think the penalties from killing a person a single time are too harsh. Still on the fence about buying into Alpha 2 at this point.
@Calibix I relate so much to the type of gameplay you just described. That's what I want aswell, and I'm also on the fence about buying into Alpha 2. Hoping they reveal more about this part of the game soon.
The systems they describe for this game remind me of playing Silkroad Online back in the day... The caravan/mercenary/thief system was so much fun! I really am hoping that's the kind of thing we have here.
Having come from Black Desert, there was this huge issue with "weaker" players griefing you while you were grinding.
I don't know how grindy this game will be, probably not as much as black desert but I suppose there will still be some grinding involved.
With the corruption system in place we can't just kill that guy that comes into our rotation and disrupts it continuously with the goal of kicking you off said grinding spot. How is one supposed to deal with that?
I've had a fair share of such encouters and these people were not generally very keen on speaking and being civil about it.
How is this issue going to be handled? How can one defend one's grinding spot?
Best regards!
Why is it your spot? Do you own the mobs? Did you buy the spot? They have the same right as you to be there.
That's what someone who would grief someone else who was already grinding there would say
No there's no written rule, however there has been a "grind etiquette" that infers that if you were in a spot first then you are entitled to that spot untill someone comes and requests to duel for it, in which case the winner gets the spot. At least it has been that way in the games that I've played.
I have literally never seen that happen.
Not in 20 years.
I've seen people fight others for a spot, for sure.
This is extremely common in BDO, if you are in a spot and someone comes you duel for spot so you don't end up wasting loot scrolls and other buffs.
On paper at least, I think the penalties from killing a person a single time are too harsh. .
Yer I totally agree, in my opinion you shouldn’t even go red for the first one or two an hour as long as your constantly grinding in between. Then have it get really harsh quickly after that, and always really harsh for killing a lowbie. That way you can contest a little, and there always a bit of fear when u spot someone else, but pvp alts aren’t viable.
I bought into it, I think there’s enough other stuff to interest me with the caravans/contested oceans, node wars. if I have to slog through tedious pve to get to it, it’s no worse than doing retail wow story quests to get to the ranked battlegrounds.
When land management policies come up then probably people will be able to hunt down gatherers, we don't know yet, but we should push for this:
- If a policy against harvesting a certain material is active, then people who gather that thing should be able to do so but should become purple for a minutes
That's it, people will saciate their thirst for carebear blood a bit and gankers will finally be seen as the true heroes they are.
Gatheres will be able to keep gathering, but they will have to be descreet about it because this window of opportunity.
This is my idea, this is true PVX, it merges the friendlyness of PVE and PVP together.
PvE means: A handful of coins and a bag of boredom.
When land management policies come up then probably people will be able to hunt down gatherers, we don't know yet, but we should push for this:
- If a policy against harvesting a certain material is active, then people who gather that thing should be able to do so but should become purple for a minutes
That's it, people will saciate their thirst for carebear blood a bit and gankers will finally be seen as the true heroes they are.
Gatheres will be able to keep gathering, but they will have to be descreet about it because this window of opportunity.
This is my idea, this is true PVX, it merges the friendlyness of PVE and PVP together.
I like this idea. I hope Steven hears of it. If you're stealing protected resources from a neighboring node, you should at least turn purple.
Having come from Black Desert, there was this huge issue with "weaker" players griefing you while you were grinding.
I don't know how grindy this game will be, probably not as much as black desert but I suppose there will still be some grinding involved.
With the corruption system in place we can't just kill that guy that comes into our rotation and disrupts it continuously with the goal of kicking you off said grinding spot. How is one supposed to deal with that?
I've had a fair share of such encouters and these people were not generally very keen on speaking and being civil about it.
How is this issue going to be handled? How can one defend one's grinding spot?
Best regards!
Why is it your spot? Do you own the mobs? Did you buy the spot? They have the same right as you to be there.
That's what someone who would grief someone else who was already grinding there would say
No there's no written rule, however there has been a "grind etiquette" that infers that if you were in a spot first then you are entitled to that spot untill someone comes and requests to duel for it, in which case the winner gets the spot. At least it has been that way in the games that I've played.
I have literally never seen that happen.
Not in 20 years.
I've seen people fight others for a spot, for sure.
This is extremely common in BDO, if you are in a spot and someone comes you duel for spot so you don't end up wasting loot scrolls and other buffs.
Literally didnt see it at all on my time in that game.
Having come from Black Desert, there was this huge issue with "weaker" players griefing you while you were grinding.
I don't know how grindy this game will be, probably not as much as black desert but I suppose there will still be some grinding involved.
With the corruption system in place we can't just kill that guy that comes into our rotation and disrupts it continuously with the goal of kicking you off said grinding spot. How is one supposed to deal with that?
I've had a fair share of such encouters and these people were not generally very keen on speaking and being civil about it.
How is this issue going to be handled? How can one defend one's grinding spot?
Best regards!
Why is it your spot? Do you own the mobs? Did you buy the spot? They have the same right as you to be there.
That's what someone who would grief someone else who was already grinding there would say
No there's no written rule, however there has been a "grind etiquette" that infers that if you were in a spot first then you are entitled to that spot untill someone comes and requests to duel for it, in which case the winner gets the spot. At least it has been that way in the games that I've played.
I have literally never seen that happen.
Not in 20 years.
I've seen people fight others for a spot, for sure.
This is extremely common in BDO, if you are in a spot and someone comes you duel for spot so you don't end up wasting loot scrolls and other buffs.
Literally didnt see it at all on my time in that game.
Having come from Black Desert, there was this huge issue with "weaker" players griefing you while you were grinding.
I don't know how grindy this game will be, probably not as much as black desert but I suppose there will still be some grinding involved.
With the corruption system in place we can't just kill that guy that comes into our rotation and disrupts it continuously with the goal of kicking you off said grinding spot. How is one supposed to deal with that?
I've had a fair share of such encouters and these people were not generally very keen on speaking and being civil about it.
How is this issue going to be handled? How can one defend one's grinding spot?
Best regards!
Why is it your spot? Do you own the mobs? Did you buy the spot? They have the same right as you to be there.
That's what someone who would grief someone else who was already grinding there would say
No there's no written rule, however there has been a "grind etiquette" that infers that if you were in a spot first then you are entitled to that spot untill someone comes and requests to duel for it, in which case the winner gets the spot. At least it has been that way in the games that I've played.
I have literally never seen that happen.
Not in 20 years.
I've seen people fight others for a spot, for sure.
This is extremely common in BDO, if you are in a spot and someone comes you duel for spot so you don't end up wasting loot scrolls and other buffs.
Literally didnt see it at all on my time in that game.
I did, however, fight people for spots.
You should have seen it if you were in competitive spots, and were competitive in pvp. Like it is literarily impossible not to see it. So you either did not get to a high point in the game or you quit very early on in the game.
Having come from Black Desert, there was this huge issue with "weaker" players griefing you while you were grinding.
I don't know how grindy this game will be, probably not as much as black desert but I suppose there will still be some grinding involved.
With the corruption system in place we can't just kill that guy that comes into our rotation and disrupts it continuously with the goal of kicking you off said grinding spot. How is one supposed to deal with that?
I've had a fair share of such encouters and these people were not generally very keen on speaking and being civil about it.
How is this issue going to be handled? How can one defend one's grinding spot?
Best regards!
Why is it your spot? Do you own the mobs? Did you buy the spot? They have the same right as you to be there.
That's what someone who would grief someone else who was already grinding there would say
No there's no written rule, however there has been a "grind etiquette" that infers that if you were in a spot first then you are entitled to that spot untill someone comes and requests to duel for it, in which case the winner gets the spot. At least it has been that way in the games that I've played.
I have literally never seen that happen.
Not in 20 years.
I've seen people fight others for a spot, for sure.
This is extremely common in BDO, if you are in a spot and someone comes you duel for spot so you don't end up wasting loot scrolls and other buffs.
Literally didnt see it at all on my time in that game.
I did, however, fight people for spots.
You should have seen it if you were in competitive spots, and were competitive in pvp. Like it is literarily impossible not to see it. So you either did not get to a high point in the game or you quit very early on in the game.
I would imagine it would have as much to do with time of the day as anything.
I would never solo grind during prime time hours - I have a guild, why would I be solo?
Perhaps it was completely normal for people to duel for these spots during prime time hours, I dont know - I always had better things to do.
All i know is that during the times of the day I was grinding, we would actually fight for our spots.
Honestly, dueling for a spot sounds lame as hell (for like, 6 reasons). You people are making BDO sound even worse.
If someone came up to me in Ashes while I was garinding and tried to duel me, I'd just decline. If they then started trying to explain to me how they want to duel me for my spot, I'd just inform them that if they wish to fight me for the spot, they can go for it, but duels are just pathetic.
If you want the spot, fight for it. If you dont want the spot enough to risk what you could lose on said fight, share the spot or go somewhere else.
Having come from Black Desert, there was this huge issue with "weaker" players griefing you while you were grinding.
I don't know how grindy this game will be, probably not as much as black desert but I suppose there will still be some grinding involved.
With the corruption system in place we can't just kill that guy that comes into our rotation and disrupts it continuously with the goal of kicking you off said grinding spot. How is one supposed to deal with that?
I've had a fair share of such encouters and these people were not generally very keen on speaking and being civil about it.
How is this issue going to be handled? How can one defend one's grinding spot?
Best regards!
Why is it your spot? Do you own the mobs? Did you buy the spot? They have the same right as you to be there.
yeah but if there are more spots, why do they have to come to where you are?
Why does that apply to the late comer and not you that are there from the start? If there are other spots why don't YOU leave?
you are arguing for the sake of arguing. but ok ill play along.
lets say im farming in area, alone, theres 5 spots and they al have the same mobs. 1 is occupied by me and the other 4 are empty. some dude comes to the area and start killing mobs where i am killing them. ill leave and go to one of the other spots, then he follows me and starts killing in the new spot as well. then i leave again and he follows me and repeats. isnt that griefing?
Maybe they're trying to pick up a fight? You endlessly killing mobs has an effect. If you cash in your certs in the closest node you lower the price for everybody else. Farming certs is making other people earn less gold. So maybe the """griefer""" is trying to make you stop, slow down your farming, pick up a fight to create drama/war or trying to make you engage in PvP so he can kill you and get your certs.
He's not just griefing, he might have additional things in mind.
Once again people think only about themselves. It seems people can't think of the ramifications of their actions. Your actions have impact on others.
Having come from Black Desert, there was this huge issue with "weaker" players griefing you while you were grinding.
I don't know how grindy this game will be, probably not as much as black desert but I suppose there will still be some grinding involved.
With the corruption system in place we can't just kill that guy that comes into our rotation and disrupts it continuously with the goal of kicking you off said grinding spot. How is one supposed to deal with that?
I've had a fair share of such encouters and these people were not generally very keen on speaking and being civil about it.
How is this issue going to be handled? How can one defend one's grinding spot?
Best regards!
Why is it your spot? Do you own the mobs? Did you buy the spot? They have the same right as you to be there.
yeah but if there are more spots, why do they have to come to where you are?
Why does that apply to the late comer and not you that are there from the start? If there are other spots why don't YOU leave?
you are arguing for the sake of arguing. but ok ill play along.
lets say im farming in area, alone, theres 5 spots and they al have the same mobs. 1 is occupied by me and the other 4 are empty. some dude comes to the area and start killing mobs where i am killing them. ill leave and go to one of the other spots, then he follows me and starts killing in the new spot as well. then i leave again and he follows me and repeats. isnt that griefing?
Maybe they're trying to pick up a fight? You endlessly killing mobs has an effect. If you cash in your certs in the closest node you lower the price for everybody else. Farming certs is making other people earn less gold. So maybe the """griefer""" is trying to make you stop, slow down your farming, pick up a fight to create drama/war or trying to make you engage in PvP so he can kill you and get your certs.
He's not just griefing, he might have additional things in mind.
Once again people think only about themselves. It seems people can't think of the ramifications of their actions. Your actions have impact on others.
Comments
I don't think I'm contradicting myself. I said 100% because EQ did in fact have the etiquette you said didn't exist. I didn't say 100% of people adhered to it, it was considered common etiquette, there was no elitism about it. You could pve grief in other ways, such as dispelling an enchanter's charm, ninja pulling nameds out of a camp, etc.
And your right, if the game just lets people pve grief and I have no reasonable recourse, then yeah its probably not a game I really want to play. There's plenty of games like that already. Which is why I went on in my next post to point out why I haven't bought into Alpha 2 yet. The green/purple/red system combined with corruption seems so detrimental that I think the majority of players will never risk going red, let alone going deep red, which then in turn limits the Bounty Hunter system because there won't be many bounties.
I'm also not advocating for a murder-box either. I just think that a PvX sandbox should allow for a decent amount of OWPvP before the harsh penalties come into play. I don't gank lowbies, I don't spawn camp lowbies, that's not enjoyable to me. If some dbag was ganking/camping lowbies, that's the type of person I'd like to kill repeatedly. More often than not I let people play but if the opportunity arises for me to kill someone that benefits me, I want to be able to take it without then being hamstrung from a single act. If I do it too much then sure there should be repercussions.
I'm not sure exactly what you mean by your last point? Are you saying that you don't want grind spots to be contested? Isn't that the point of it being OW and not instanced? The whole risk v reward thing? I love the idea of camping a very lucrative area with a group and having to potentially defend it against others that want that spot as well. You might disagree, but it doesn't make either of our ideas invalid, this is a forum for feedback after all. As I said, there are plenty of games that play the way you want already, I'd like for one to play the way I want which AoC could be, but I don't see it happening with the current iteration of the system on paper.
He could be just experiencing the game and learning stuff.
I think Steven doesn't want the minmaxing, best-grindspot approach for AoC. He also doesn't want owPvP to be about spot contesting/PvE griefing/griefing. There will be plenty of mechanics(sieges/wars/caravans) that allow you to PvP wîthout corruption and plenty of reasons to owPvP(node wars/economic wars/preventing neighours to grow etc.). There will be no reason to defend your spot and going red for it and no reoson to accrue death penalties, by dying someone out of it.
Well....there's always a reason, I guess. That's why you're allowed to do it, if you take the risk of going red.
you are arguing for the sake of arguing. but ok ill play along.
lets say im farming in area, alone, theres 5 spots and they al have the same mobs. 1 is occupied by me and the other 4 are empty. some dude comes to the area and start killing mobs where i am killing them. ill leave and go to one of the other spots, then he follows me and starts killing in the new spot as well. then i leave again and he follows me and repeats. isnt that griefing?
The main question is should u be able to stake a claim on a spot and enforce your claim by force. I would say yes as conflict enhances my experience mainly because I in my experience it encourages the safety in numbers mentally rather than relying on group xp bonuses.
You do end up will play sessions where you essentially have no progress because of the contesting and/or inability to get a decent group together which is what I think turns people of the always on pvp type of server/game. As I tend to play group pvp type activities a lot at max level the idea of having my lvling progress stopped by pvp really doesn’t bother me.
Steven spoke a lot about risk vs reward, and I like that, but what is the risk for someone that is just passively griefing someone else without getting involved in PvP? The reward may very well be just annoying the other person, and even if the other person kills the griefer a few times it will, eventually, become much easier for the griefer to just kill the person due to how the corruption system works.
1) I think that's semantics at that point, but I will just say as I said it was common etiquette. No one disputed it. People who didn't extend that courtesy were ostracized. /shrug
2) What are the penalties a green player gets? Obviously any dropped loot (from what I read from Alpha 1 players, was insignificant), but I haven't read about any debuffs a green player would receive? Just a generic death penalty?
3) Interesting, I have not read about this. Could you provide a link? That could certainly change things, but I'm curious how they could implement this. Sounds cool. I enjoyed Lower Guk (very good group dungeon Kunark-era EQ), but spending everyday there could get old. Regardless of the "dynamic" system, people will find "the best" spot and competition will ensue. In a group, the system is a lot more manageable since you could try to spread out the KB's, but in a solo situation there doesn't seem to be much recourse.
I don't disagree there are plenty of opportunities for PvP corruption free and that's great. But if Steven doesn't want OwPvP to be about contesting things, then what is it supposed to be about? My concern is if it's not in those areas, the penalties are so harsh that no almost one will do it which at that point why have it at all, and again, it then invalidates the BH system.
4)I think most of my concerns would be alleviated by red not being a thing until a certain threshold, similar to old school UO. You didn't go red until you had a certain amount of kills in a certain amount of time, and you didn't have an exact idea of where you were so you had to take the risk if you wanted that kill or not. Or you just didn't care and went red with everything that went with it. That makes a lot more sense to me, prevents a lot of griefing both pvp/pve, and makes it easily adjustable by tweaking numbers. My 2cp.
A non-combatant (green player) who dies suffers normal penalties, which include:[6]
Experience debt (negative experience).[9]
Skill and stat dampening.[6]
Lower health and mana.[6]
Lower gear proficiency.[6]
Reduction in drop rates from monsters.[10]
Durability loss.[11][12][6]
At 14:40 they start talking about the land health management and that everything players do in a region has a systemic impact on the region. If he talks about player agency he always explains it as the systemic impact a players actions have on his environments. He hasn't explicitely said anything on let us say a centaur village yet, but I strongly expect that grindspots aren't the only thing that is excempt from these changes.
Steven calls it soft friction. It is not as much about what is mine and what is yours, but more about what are your guild's/node mayor's goals. Hard to explain without quoting the whole wiki.
https://ashesofcreation.wiki/
It's the whole risk vs reward calculation. Is it worth invading the neighbouring node and, if as a reward your node levels faster? You risk going red, but it might be worth or the better perks of your node. The stronger and bigger the raid party is, the safer. The whole solo player part of owPvP is discouraged, group actions are incentivized(for example by mayor quests). But it might still be a nice and fast profit if you can kill a gatherer and his mule and get away with it.
Isn't it sad, that there is such a strong mold of how owPvP and PvP focused games have to be, that everybody thinks he knows exactly what is meant. I don't think many have realized that PvX means "not a PvEer game" AND "not a PvPer game".
I admit the system is still very much open to abuse by someone just following you around getting in your way, but could be some tuning that would limit it and allow you some control by force.
If the passive griefer gets killed a few times they could potentially get xp loses as well. If the corruption negatives from killing a same level player a few times is low enough in comparison.
We also havnt seen the respawn distance/system. If they respawn some distance away and that allows you to grind of your corruption before they can make it back then that could work.
If you end up having to keep on killing lots of different players to keep your spot clear then time to probably give up and live with them for a while at least.
Very interesting, thanks for your input! Really hoping they address this kind of thing. Contesting things is always fun!
I also agree with @Frostywombat that this is a lot of speculation until we actually get to see it in practice. On paper at least, I think the penalties from killing a person a single time are too harsh. Still on the fence about buying into Alpha 2 at this point.
The systems they describe for this game remind me of playing Silkroad Online back in the day... The caravan/mercenary/thief system was so much fun! I really am hoping that's the kind of thing we have here.
This is extremely common in BDO, if you are in a spot and someone comes you duel for spot so you don't end up wasting loot scrolls and other buffs.
Yer I totally agree, in my opinion you shouldn’t even go red for the first one or two an hour as long as your constantly grinding in between. Then have it get really harsh quickly after that, and always really harsh for killing a lowbie. That way you can contest a little, and there always a bit of fear when u spot someone else, but pvp alts aren’t viable.
I bought into it, I think there’s enough other stuff to interest me with the caravans/contested oceans, node wars. if I have to slog through tedious pve to get to it, it’s no worse than doing retail wow story quests to get to the ranked battlegrounds.
- If a policy against harvesting a certain material is active, then people who gather that thing should be able to do so but should become purple for a minutes
That's it, people will saciate their thirst for carebear blood a bit and gankers will finally be seen as the true heroes they are.
Gatheres will be able to keep gathering, but they will have to be descreet about it because this window of opportunity.
This is my idea, this is true PVX, it merges the friendlyness of PVE and PVP together.
I like this idea. I hope Steven hears of it. If you're stealing protected resources from a neighboring node, you should at least turn purple.
Yeah, another guy gave another idea very close to this, but it has a lot of intricacies.
My idea is just pure PVX, everybody can understand such ruleset.
Yeah I hope Steven hears about my idea of flagging as purple people who steal prohibited stuff.
Literally didnt see it at all on my time in that game.
I did, however, fight people for spots.
That would be very interesting!
Was pretty common on my server.
You should have seen it if you were in competitive spots, and were competitive in pvp. Like it is literarily impossible not to see it. So you either did not get to a high point in the game or you quit very early on in the game.
I would imagine it would have as much to do with time of the day as anything.
I would never solo grind during prime time hours - I have a guild, why would I be solo?
Perhaps it was completely normal for people to duel for these spots during prime time hours, I dont know - I always had better things to do.
All i know is that during the times of the day I was grinding, we would actually fight for our spots.
Honestly, dueling for a spot sounds lame as hell (for like, 6 reasons). You people are making BDO sound even worse.
If someone came up to me in Ashes while I was garinding and tried to duel me, I'd just decline. If they then started trying to explain to me how they want to duel me for my spot, I'd just inform them that if they wish to fight me for the spot, they can go for it, but duels are just pathetic.
If you want the spot, fight for it. If you dont want the spot enough to risk what you could lose on said fight, share the spot or go somewhere else.
Maybe they're trying to pick up a fight? You endlessly killing mobs has an effect. If you cash in your certs in the closest node you lower the price for everybody else. Farming certs is making other people earn less gold. So maybe the """griefer""" is trying to make you stop, slow down your farming, pick up a fight to create drama/war or trying to make you engage in PvP so he can kill you and get your certs.
He's not just griefing, he might have additional things in mind.
Once again people think only about themselves. It seems people can't think of the ramifications of their actions. Your actions have impact on others.
you still dont get it xddd