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[Feedback Request] Cleric & Weapon Updates Shown in November Livestream



  • Miss XaniMiss Xani Member
    edited December 2022
    Seeing the ability synergy made me feel all sorts of excited. Making team composition and team work be rewarded with different combo effects shoots the group play ceiling way up and could make smaller more co ordinated groups outpreform a group with a numbers advantage.
    It will be important to make sure to balance and give interactions between all the main archtypes.

    A comment I have to make is overtwirly flashy fighting style with the little mace felt a little bit off. Floaty and disconnected.
    Also I have to say i LOVE the sitting to recover thing. Add a layer of gameplay to have to find somewhere safe to recover or have someone cover you. Add options to sustain oneself while solo or in a party without a cleric to recover post battle where you took some damage.
    Great Reveal. <3
  • FantmxFantmx Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    I love the minimalist UI approach.

    I have always said I would rather be able to open a map in a new window that could sit on my second or third monitor rather than use the mini map or in game map approach. Absent that option, minimalist here as well is best for the mini map and then great detail for an in game map.

    I have always played a cleric and this look like a great start. I like the combination of targeted heals and AoE heals. I also like being able to damage a fair amount. My favorite healer class of all time is the Templar. I would like to see reactive heals as part of this. I would place a blessing on a group mate and when that player is hit the heal triggers.

    I like the idea of combining class skills. Heroic opportunities from EQ2 were great for this. Anything that encourages teamwork is a plus.

    I really hope we see a form of a shadow priest that is primary damage but with some side heals. WoW nailed that class.
  • How do you feel about the synergy between archetypes and status conditions?

    I like the direction for sure. In general, the more complexity behind the scenes is great for players like me but make sure you keep it simple enough that other players will engage in it. In New World, they had a system designed for players to use certain weapon types or buffs against certain enemies and I think a large portion of the player base just overlooks it completely. Either directly tell players what the system is through like a hints screen (less preferred) or indirectly through hit indicators for effective vs non effective. Pokemon comes to mind.

    Do you think party composition should amplify the meta?
    Absolutely. I like the trinity gameplay. I also liked that the cleric also has to do damage. I'm a dom power healer myself.

    What are your thoughts regarding the active blocking shown during the November Update?

    It looked fine I suppose. Maybe need to amplify the feedback (audio, visual, hit indicator).

    Share your thoughts about the hotbar, icons, minimap, party and targeting UI shown.

    I love it. It looks very unique to Ashes. But these sort of things I guess I'm not really that concerned with right now. It's a minor detail but I think you guys did an amazing job.

    Is there anything in particular you’re excited or concerned about regarding what was shown with the Cleric update and weapons demo?

    I love the animations. I love the feedback from healing. I would be very excited for more complexity with the Cleric role. Also i know that we have stats affecting skills but is there going to be skill progression?
  • First off I think if the slow ass zombies get to you, it should do a grab and big damage to you, they seemed a little lack luster.
    The way the classes can work together like in gw2 is always a great idea, as long as it's not too over the top.
    People need to realise it's still being developed, it's not a finished product. (and i'm giving all the input I can because let's be honest this game is already amazing!)
    I do think the enemies need more HP, it feels like it's over before it has begun, especially that giant zombie.(Maybe devs were quite strong though I don't know.)
    Just now I noticed that getting hit by magic doesn't really seem impactive and that it should make your character stagger a bit, just visually with it being more noticeable with lighter armor.

    The maps look phenominal and it seems like adventuring and exploration is going to be insanely fun, especially with all the hidden places, unlockables and the seasons! HYPE!

    The greatsword skills still look a, seems the overhead hammer skill is super slow and a bit clunky and I'm just not a fan of it in general, the whirlwind needs work also, the impactfulness from a different person's point of view is lackluster.
    For high impact skills such as the over head hammer it should do an small AOE camera shake for those in the vicinity and for other skills that have the same kind of impact.(I think Steven did say that they would have sliders for these kinds of things anyway but i'm not sure if it's for the area or just the player who uses the skill.)
    I DO want to give credit to how arrows are drawn on the ranger, it looks incredible and I noticed it looks so smooth like god damn 10/10!
    The Cleric abilities I feel was decent overall but quite clunky, not sure if the bind skill should be a small
    multi-target skill instead, but this could be affected by secondary class such as cleric/ranger.

    I think that having zombies weak to healing abilities would be cool and would make sense since they are "undead," it would give the cleric a very defined use apart from just healing, this could also be changed with secondary class.

    Overall as always a job well done and i'm excited to see more!
    Huge fan - Naruir :smile:

  • DaevokDaevok Member
    edited December 2022
    How do you feel about the synergy between archetypes and status conditions?
    I like the direction it's going. As others have mentioned, keep it relatively archetype focused so it doesn't become overly convoluted/complicated. Base archetypes should all share common synergies. There can be a few whacky/complex ones that only certain classes can do but they should be a small minority.

    Do you think party composition should amplify the meta?
    I think regardless there will always be a 'most optimized party comp' depending on the content. Enemy weaknesses can help avoid 'one group/class fits all' for the best comp. Just ensure every class is viable.

    What are your thoughts regarding the active blocking shown during the November Update?
    First and foremost, I think active blocking as it was showcased should be a melee only ability, with ranged/spellcasting classes getting a button to mitigate damage in some other manner (ranged maybe getting a change to avoid an attack with the button and casters getting a chance to reflect a spell/projectile with their button).

    It should definitely require stamina. In my opinion it should be a timed function with a short cooldown so that its about your reaction time instead of holding a button (maybe it can be slightly different for a tank that others classes). To even further differentiate the 3 types of blocking:

    Melee active blocking should be flat damage mitigation (possibly just non spell damage)

    Ranged active blocking should be some sort of dodge chance to potentially negate the whole attack, with increased percentage based on a very small window of when you press the button

    Caster active blocking should be flat reduction is spell/projectile damage with maybe a chance to reflect all or some of it.

    All of them should require stamina and not be a button you hold but rather a button you time with a cooldown. I think this would make it more interesting and rewarding to pull off. I don't think it makes sense for a caster or ranged to have an active block that will mitigate a melee characters physical hits with sheer brute blocking force. Each class types block should work within the role fantasy IMO.

    Share your thoughts about the hotbar, icons, minimap, party and targeting UI shown.
    Is there anything in particular you’re excited or concerned about regarding what was shown with the Cleric update and weapons demo?

    Looks great to me. I think mob health bars should be easier to see/on top of their heads - customizable.
    Really like the map.

    I thought the combat was a little bit slower that it should be. Maybe 20% faster in terms for weapon swings and spell casts/animations. I particularly didn't like the mace weapon animation - as a whole felt a bit slow and not very impactful while the final spin swing took way to long to execute. The staff attack pattern was fine to me, but the overall footwork and balance of weight/floatiness for the staff and mace needs more tuning. I still like the greatsword animations! Watch more BDO combat!

    As others have also mentioned, the hammer ability doesn't seem to fit the fighter at all - looks like a paladin or cleric holy ability. On top of that it seems clunky and hard to use since from both videos it hit its target maybe 50% of the time.

    Visually the game is amazing. You guys clearly have that aspect down.

    Keeping working on the animation in general (the zombies seemed jittery and low fps?).

    Overall great progress!

  • Didn't see a whole lot of healing taking place, but it looked like a fun archetype to play.

    Will see more once we hit Alpha-2, I guess!
    This link may help you:
  • How do you feel about the synergy between archetypes and status conditions?

    The designed of the classes looks very interesting and status conditions are important. I like to see RPG elements in my MMOs, and causing status conditions are important to that.

    Do you think party composition should amplify the meta?

    I loved when having a party enhances what you can do. I enjoy party and raiding building. It is nice though when you can have some overlap, so you can bring your friends. Providing the party benefits and buffs, can really make encounters fun and change the way you go through content with different group setups. It is just a fine balance between enhancing the gameplay or preventing gameplay. The difficulty of the content you are trying to do can move this balance as well. But I have no doubt you all will figure out a good balance.

    What are your thoughts regarding the active blocking shown during the November Update?

    I thought combat overall looks very good for an alpha state. Having active blocking and dodging is something that can enhance the gameplay in any game. I would expect that certain classes will be better at blocking than others. My only concern is just making sure it is limited but useful. My worry is probably just coming from my current experience in another MMO, were essentially players can infinite dodge and run away at all time. Blocking can be similar.

    Share your thoughts about the hotbar, icons, minimap, party and targeting UI shown.

    I like the UI. I typically adapt to what I play. I like the hotbars a lot and I could easily tell what was on cooldown. The mini map was great! The reactivity of the UI to what was happening in game look quite good to me and I could easily see what was going on.

    Is there anything in particular you’re excited or concerned about regarding what was shown with the Cleric update and weapons demo?

    The cleric designed looks very good. I usually main a healer/paladin build. The speed of the combat looks great. I understand the level was lower and there will be more as your class gets level up. Seeing the paladin going through the zombie area looked good and really helped me as I watched get that sense of the paladin of light, smiting evil that is endangering his party.

    I liked what I saw and thank you for the update. For an alpha state MMO, things are really looking good. To say I am excited to play, would be an understatement.
  • As an addition: I like the addition of the archetype-specific resource, like the Cleric's 'Convictions'. I've played other games that mixed two resource types like that, and it worked very well. Each skill/abiility would have a different amount of 'resource' before it became available, and you'd get it by performing actions, either by using basic-attack or by using a skill that charged it. Once you had enough, you'd spend them like you would Magic Points, and then they'd reset and you'd have to rebuild the resource pool again. Adds an extra dynamic to your strategy for each fight.
    This link may help you:
  • LinikerLiniker Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    edited December 2022
    I'd like to add to my previous feedback on the shield and active block that some skills

    (all weapons should reduce dmg up to ~30% when blocking, and shield up to ~50% on all archetypes Except the Tank - Tank should have a unique passive and reduce up to ~50% damage when blocking with any weapon and be the only class to block 100% of damage when using a shield until it breaks his stamina and shield goes on cooldown)

    Please do it right, don't give the same active block to Every archetype, Tanks can't heal and have low damage - if they can't even be the best in blocking nobody is playing it, he needs to have unique passives and be the only one to block 100% damage with the shield.

    I'd like to add that there should be some skills like a dash + shield bash with a stun or snare that can be used while holding the active block, this is especially important to give shield users an opportunity to fight against ranged archetypes.
    Recrutamento aberto - Nosso Site: Clique aqui
  • There was definitely a lot to take in with the various new elements and the group combat (I just want to say, we have been wanting to see multiple players on stream for a long time, so this is a MASSIVE plus). If you are going to do combat updates in future, it would be cool to see another player on screen - even perhaps to show off some PvP elements to it.

    Cleric Spells

    The mechanics are very interesting, with the passive ability "conviction" that buffs other spells - i'd actually be interested to know if you could use that to buff both healing AND damage spells. That gives you the choice to sacrifice the potential healing for more offensive pressure. That kind of decision making in a game is fantastic.

    It's a fairly basic tool kit, single heal, chain heal, aoe heal - so I will say that spell effects look good, I think you can visualise it in many different ways and it will look fine, as long as it looks like a heal in terms of feedback that will do the trick.

    Stagger/CC abilities

    I will echo a point that has been said which I agree with - which is about the existence of group based combat and strategizing for it. There is both executing it as well as counter play. I think that if Ashes is to have a larger active ability tool set then I want it to feel a bit more strategic like chess, as opposed to more reactionary like games with less abilities i.e. New World/Guild Wars 2.

    If we are up against an opposing party with 6 different classes, or think larger scale in a siege - is it going to be the case that spamming down your aoes with your tier 1 cc's will pretty easily rank up to good lv 2 cc's like stuns, or is it perhaps the case that the first ability that can trigger evolving the "tier 1" cc will consume say, the stagger to turn it into a stun?

    How will you design this? If a fighter can drop his aoe to stagger an opponent, how many other archetypes can trigger a tier 2 "stun" - all of them? Or only some? Interesting I think limiting the synergies to certain class combos will result in more diversity - though that's why I start to worrying about balance. I.e. stun will always be the supreme CC so that combination will have to be a must.

    Basically, how can you minimise it being a spam fest of abilities and being more strategic?


    Unfortunately the weapon showcase didn't show a whole lot. One thing that came to mind, is that would a cleric be more inclined to keep some distance? In which case they probably would be shoe-horned into ranged weapons. If you can allow for clerics to become more tanky, then what incentive do they have to go for a melee weapon and how proficient can they be in melee combat to justify trading the safety of range?
  • How do you feel about the synergy between archetypes and status conditions?

    I think ability synergy between classes is great, but it needs to be fairly widespread. If I have class synergy capacity as a cleric but I need a tank in order to activate it, that's gonna feel bad. Perhaps have multiple avenues of synergy for each class type that allow a handful of unique effect types to occur between different classes, while keeping them all useful? Stuns, extra damage over time, speed buffs and debuffs, etc. No matter who they're paired with, the player should be able to get excited about synergizing their abilities with someone else.

    Do you think party composition should amplify the meta?

    Not sure exactly what you mean here, but if you're trying to ask whether the exact composition of a party should be the key to reaching your highest collective potential, I have mixed feelings about that. I like that Ashes is encouraging community gameplay by requiring players to be grouped in order to have the potential for balance, but in terms of exact party composition, I think you should be able to take any group of somewhat varied playstyles and have them feel solid together. I don't think we need to go 100% "bring the player not the class" and make all the classes play the same, but to a certain degree, I don't want to be handcuffed when choosing my team mates by having an exact group comp synergy be more important than anything else.

    What are your thoughts regarding the active blocking shown during the November Update?

    The player should feel like whatever's hitting their shield was worth blocking - ie, stagger. Not enough to stun the player with every attack they block, but they should look like they're getting walloped by something. Their arm folds in a little bit with the shield, maybe they rock back a bit when they get hit by a critical strike. This was kind of hard to judge in the preview video, since the attack animation of the zombie hitting Steven's shield looked somewhat underwhelming. Kind of looked like it was gently "pawing" at him. I would've much preferred the zombie's attacks to have more weight, but I can tell the zombie animations have a decent amount of work left in general. Overall, attack animations should hit hard, and if you're blocking an attack, you should get some visceral feedback that makes you think, "Oh man, I'm sure glad I blocked that one!"

    Maybe if the player blocks a big AoE ability during a boss fight, they're able to mitigate damage, but it stuns them for a bit instead?

    Share your thoughts about the hotbar, icons, minimap, party and targeting UI shown.
    Is there anything in particular you’re excited or concerned about regarding what was shown with the Cleric update and weapons demo?

    Personally, I hate seeing nameplates on-screen. It really detracts from the immersion and makes things feel cluttered to me. In a big raid environment, I can understand it, but just dinking around in the open world, it doesn't seem necessary. When I do want it on, however, I want it to look smooth and unimposing. Just enough visibility to see where the enemies are. The current font hovering over enemies is such a strong bright red, and the black outlining around the text makes it really distracting. I'm assuming all of those elements will get a big overhaul before release, but that's the first thing that popped out at me.

    I like the design of the player / party resource bars, but one major thing I'd suggest is that the team try swapping out red health for green health. I would argue green is much less distracting in the peripheral. Right now, when I look at Steven's screen while he's playing, no matter where I look, my eyes are drawn like magnets to the red health bars.

    Other Thoughts

    Overall, it would've been cool to see the Cleric take more of an active role in party damage. Not as much as a pure damage class, obviously. But between Steven's heals, it seemed like there was a fair amount of walking/standing around while other people are fighting. I saw him using that red light beam attack, so that's one avenue, but filling out that ability bar will hopefully yield some more offensive options. Pure healing can be hectic during a big raid or OWPvP event, but in small group content, it's nice to have a system of weaving attacks in with your heals and being rewarded for it. I'm assuming this is how convictions will work? So maybe just some more tightening up in that area and making players work for their convictions by staying on their toes and contributing properly in-between heals.
  • How do you feel about the synergy between archetypes and status conditions?

    - I very much enjoyed the synergy in small scale design and the stagger combo was an exciting look into what is hopefully a robust combat design system. I am a bit worried about "how" these will interact and "how many" types of these effects would be insanely hard to track in a massive siege but we haven't seen enough of it to really put a finger to the pulse on that. Overall, the design space of being able to synergize and build out different synergies between allies and your own skills seems extremely exciting.

    Do you think party composition should amplify the meta?

    - I believe this is a tall task for balancing, but I do believe compositions and skill decisions should allow for very amplified effects. If my buddy is a tank with many stagger effects and I spec myself to build off of his/my synergies that should be rewarded.

    What are your thoughts regarding the active blocking shown during the November Update?

    - Active blocking seems interesting and seemed to be a very potent effect to mitigate damage. So much so that I had a concern with viability of other weapons. In this specific scenario (I know this was not tuned so I will reserve judgement until down the line post A2 etc) but the shield seemed to block a ton of damage and the mace was doing magnitudes more damage than the staff with no discernable upside for the staff. If the Cleric is only supposed to X weapon + shield that would be a missed opportunity in my opinion. I think if there is enough mobility in weapon/class kits to make this a decision of "how well do I think I can run away" vs "I can block a bunch but I am a sitting duck" that would make this system really hum.

    Share your thoughts about the hotbar, icons, minimap, party and targeting UI shown.

    - It looked barebones (I am definitely not looking for a WoW type screen), but I liked the direction it is going. I would like to see a deeper dive into the modular/customization options as I am typically one to hack and butcher my UI exactly to my preferred specs.

    Is there anything in particular you’re excited or concerned about regarding what was shown with the Cleric update and weapons demo?

    I was absolutely in love with the skill direction/abilities shown and if that is the "bones" of the class I will be a happy camper. I liked seeing the classes work together to show how complex fights can get. I am mildly concerned about weapons and weapon viabilities, but that is a concern for later in terms of balance and how "floaty" the melee felt.
  • How do you feel about the synergy between archetypes and status conditions?
    - Need more information to say anything but the direction it's headed adheres to the game's policy of risk vs reward so it's good.

    Do you think party composition should amplify the meta?
    -Obviously, there shouldn't be one "meta" and having these archetype combinations and status effects makes it spicy. I like spicy.

    What are your thoughts regarding the active blocking shown during the November Update?
    - I think every class should not be able to actively block but rather have a skill that could evade/block attacks. If there's going to be an active block it should be weapon specific. If every weapon/class allows active blocking then some weapons and classes should do a better job at active blocking or negate more damage than others that are not good at active blocking.

    Share your thoughts about the hot bar, icons, minimap, party, and targeting UI shown.
    -It looks generic which is not good or bad but it doesn't feel unique to ashes. It's hard to assume a theme for this game but every other game I played has its theme for UI.

    Is there anything, in particular, you’re excited or concerned about regarding what was shown with the Cleric update and weapons demo?
    -everything is good except the fact that we cant see more of this stuff. :(
  • How do you feel about the synergy between archetypes and status conditions?
    Synergies are great. They encourage teamplay and communication. I think advancing status conditions is a very good idea that feels impactful.

    What are your thoughts regarding the active blocking shown during the November Update?
    tbh I think it's a bit concerning that the decision on active blocking isn’t final yet as this should influence ability and class design.
    Personally, I don’t like universal active dodge and block as it takes away from class identity. My favorite implementation for blocking would be to have the active block as an ability for the tank class that blocks 100% damage for a short duration and a weaker/shorter/longer cd version for the fighter and cleric class.
    Adding stamina as another resource next to hp, mana and cooldowns would increase complexity and make balancing way harder. Now every attack in the game and every ability needs a stamina damage number and weapons/shields need some kind of blocking stat. Why not just make use of cooldowns to prevent perma-blocking?

    Share your thoughts about the hotbar, icons, minimap, party and targeting UI shown.
    I think the UI was good. The xp bar looks great, so do the archetype icons. The ability icons also look nice. The only problem I have is that it doesn’t feel like there is a theme yet. Individually everything looks nice but it doesn’t fit together perfectly.
    I also really liked the party and target UI. I don’t think there was a mouseover tooltip for buffs and debuffs? Pretty sure that will be added soon.

    Is there anything in particular you’re excited or concerned about regarding what was shown with the Cleric update and weapons demo?
    All in all a great update. I really like the conviction mechanic to add some depth to the cleric class kit.
    The zombie scholars are casting spells. I hope we will be able to see enemy cast-bars in the future so you can interrupt channels.
    One small concern: mob animations were low fps sometimes

    Keep up the great work :)
  • DebaDeba Member
    edited December 2022
    How do you feel about the synergy between archetypes and status conditions?
    - Pretty cool idea

    Do you think party composition should amplify the meta?
    - I think that party composition should be important and synergies between party members sounds appealing but I think it would also be nice if going solo would be a option, a bit of both worlds :)

    What are your thoughts regarding the active blocking shown during the November Update?
    -I think it makes shields cooler, it reminds me of the shield blocking from Dark Souls 3 and its nice to have as an option on classes like cleric.

    Share your thoughts about the hotbar, icons, minimap, party and targeting UI shown.
    - I love the art for the class icons, and the UI is acceptable so far!

    Is there anything in particular you’re excited or concerned about regarding what was shown with the Cleric update and weapons demo?
    -I'm excited for how constellation is going to impact the game, i loved seeing the three classes fighting together. The day and night cycle is alright; the scenery was overall gorgeous both day and night, I also would like to see darker nights overall, and not just limited to some dungeons and such. I think the mist would look cooler, if it slowly would descend down along the stairs instead of coming from only one direction. The combat seems to be lacking so far, it looks simple, rigid and therefore not very appealing. I think the helmet on the cleric is quite big compared to the rest of the armor and the neck is quite exposed and doesn't look good together with the helmet

    -Will you be able to switch weapons while in combat? I've seen this on cleric, who switched from mace to staff while zombie dogs were coming to attack.
    -Whats the difference between mace/shield and staff, can you perform melee attacks with the staff?
    -Whats the maximum of stacks of conviction that you can have on Cleric?
    -Do you plan to have status controls higher than tier 2? What tier would mind control be if you plan on that?
    -How far are you going with the size of the shields?
  • Deba wrote: »
    stacks of contempt
    I mean stacks of conviction <3

  • 1. How do you feel about the synergy between archetypes and status conditions?

    Good direction.

    2. Do you think party composition should amplify the meta?


    3 What are your thoughts regarding the active blocking shown during the November Update?

    Not sure. Would need to see more to make up my mind.

    Honestly, I'm afraid lag will make it a poor system in group combat or server peak time.

    4. Share your thoughts about the hotbar, icons, minimap, party and targeting UI shown.

    Saw nothing wrong.

    While a lot of kids were complaining about these being quite typpical..... AoC does absolutely not have to reinvent the wheel.

    It just has to do everything other mmos did well while delivering on the systems and game philosophy it promises.

    6. Is there anything in particular you’re excited or concerned about regarding what was shown with the Cleric update and weapons demo?

    The night is too bright. I was hoping for a dark night. I think you guys should try a dark dark night in A2 and fix it if it just doesn't work.

    I think the aoe heal spell was still too bright and would like it toned down, but still, it was decent.

    I just hope that the Cleric isn't just stuck in a standard same-old, same-old role and would actually like to see various Cleric class choices be impactful enough to give some real flavor and uniqueness to the healer experience.

  • LinikerLiniker Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    I left more in-depth feedback specifically for Active Blocking in a separate post here:
    Recrutamento aberto - Nosso Site: Clique aqui
  • Ace1234Ace1234 Member
    edited December 2022
    1. Intro

    I really enjoyed the stream as always- I put a lot of time into formulating some practical (and hopefully helpful) constructive feedback based on what I noticed from the showcase. I understand things are still a work in progress, which is exactly why I would like to emphasize a lot of these points while they are still tunable during development. I tried to go really in-depth about different problems/solutions and how they interact with other systems, while providing a lot of tangible examples of mechanics in other games.

    2. How do you feel about the synergy between archetypes and status conditions?

    I am very happy that there are class synergies, this rewards team based strategy and can shake up the meta simply based on the number of players in a given situation, due to opening up new potential team combinations. You just have to be careful to avoid creating predictable team-compositions due to the synergies. It shouldn't be so simplified that there is only ever a reason to run a few types of compositions together, because of how the synergies discourage other compositions. This could potentially stagnate the meta if mis-handled.

    I am also very happy that damage types are still planned as well, this can be great for keeping that rock paper scissors balance amongst individual classes that have unique builds and class identities, and reinforces that team composition aspect.

    I am glad that these are planned mechanics, my only hope is that moment-to-moment combat skill is always at least equally as relevant as the preparation and pre-battle strategy aspects (such as team composition, gear, weapons, build, etc.). There should be a "reasonable" amount of wiggle room to be able to out-skill a competent player who has an advantage in those other areas.

    I also think that the synergies should allow for group compositions that reflect the base classes. By this I mean that as a group you should have the freedom to create teams comps that specialize in the same specific playstyles that the individual classes are based on- such as a "tank" composition, or "dps" composition, with either a sustain or burst focus. Along with different sub-categories within each composition style- such as evasion/shield/control/etc. that different compositions could be geared towards.

    3. Do you think party composition should amplify the meta?

    A) The best kind of meta

    The more specific and situational the meta is, the better. As such, i think having a meta that can change just simply based on the amount of people involved (through opening up different composition possibilities), is better than group metas being a more stagnant "same meta as 1v1 but with more people".

    I think the game that does this best, to take inspiration from in terms of this aspect would be competitive Pokemon- The following are some examples of how similar these games are in this specific context
    1. it has pvp/pve with a similar setup in terms of the ability to make builds for individual characters (through manipulating base stats, allocating additional stat points, equipping active/passive abilities that situationally affect stats, etc.)
    2. The effectiveness of each individual can be influenced by the composition of your team, and is dependant on the team you are fighting against, which creates an enormous amount of strategic depth
    3. There is a "counter-based" system through pokemon typings (similar to Ashes damage-types and balancing approach), tank/support/dps roles (through making pokemon builds) with the ability to "turn the dial" to create hybrid roles when making builds (like Ashes dual classes), etc., and is overall very similar to ashes from a class/group perspective.
    So, the meta is very flexible and situational, as it ultimately depends on the composition that you are going against, and even then you have options to try to predict and counter specific compositions, or too try to have a more versatile composition that is good against more types of teams, but may require more effort to win against specific types of teams. So i think there is a lot that can be learned from that scene in terms of creating a meta that has depth and is dynamic.

    In case you want to deep dive into how Pokemon excels in strategic depth at a 1v1 level all the way to full team compositions, and how the meta is so dynamic and situational-
    here is a series that breaks down the fundamentals of individual pokemon builds and team building in competitive pokemon;t=83s;t=405s

    B- Keeping the "Meta" fun

    But just to reiterate, I hope that skill and strategy/tactics takes priority amongst intertwined gameplay systems, and doesn't let the "meta" in one system invalidate the intended skill gap in another.

    When it comes to the actual balancing of synergies/classes/weapons/damage types etc. amongst other game systems, the ideas for good ways to balance an "action rpg" that uses "counters" in its game systems, can come from lessons that Blizzard's Overwatch has learned over the years in this regard. Obviously there are aspects of Overwatch that are different from Ashes, but in terms of this specific concept they are very similar (and actually Overwatch was originally formed as the foundation for Blizzard's next mmo, until they changed direction). As time went on Blizzard learned from Overwatch learned that players hate being completely 100% nullified just based on the character choice the opponent made before the battle even started- thus being forced to pick a specific character/class or run a specific team comp rather than their favorite character/class. This is unfun, and the problem would be exacerbated if Ashes doesn't have a system that allows for the flexibility of changing strategies on the fly relative to what the enemy is using at a given time, in comparison to Overwatch's freedom to change any given moment. The solution they are taking is to make players a lot more empowered regardless of their pre-battle choices- so in other words keeping combat skill as a priority through having "softer" counters that still provide differences and advantages that can be overcome. I think this would be a great approach to take for balancing any "counter-based" rock/paper/scissors type system in Ashes, at every level from 1v1 all the way to group gameplay. This philosophy is would be best in the context that both combatants are supposed to be on a somewhat even playing field (all else equal other than class choice)- which isn't always the case when you have a progression system with varying tiers of gear/weapons/etc. However I think the idea of giving a "fighting chance" should still be applied to a certain extent even when players aren't equal in their progression level, for the best experience. In that context, this just means making sure that its viable to win, regardless of progression level differences- but obviously with that viability being either easier or more difficult for the player, to reflect the disparity in progression level between the players.

    Here is one of many Overwatch 2 videos where he talks about the comments Blizzard has made on their changes to the hard-counter system that they are shifting away from for their new design approach- right around 8:20;t=309s

    They have also shifted their design to giving characters more tools and abilities, as well as allowing all of the classes to be more involved in all aspects of combat, rather than being rigidly limited to "shielding" or "shooting", because it is more fun for players to interact with the full combat system (movement/attack/defense/sustain) while also having more situational tools to manage within that (active skills/abilities). A lot of these changes have been welcome and a huge improvement to the core class balance and combat of Overwatch's upgrades gameplay, with the main gripes of Overwatch 2 being non-combat related issues, such as their monetization methods.

    4. What are your thoughts regarding the active blocking shown during the November Update?

    A) my thoughts

    I absolutely love it as base mechanic for everyone. I actually hope they take this to the next level and add a "perfect parry" mechanic, being a higher risk version of the active block (either upon initiation of the block or during release of the block) where if you time your block right there is a higher payoff, such as having no loss of stamina and/or freezing the enemy long enough to give you a chance to counterattack.

    -I notice some people have the perception that active block isnt fun because "you are standing there doing nothing". This would only be true if it is optimal to just stand in one spot while holding block indefinitely (which I will address).

    This should not be the case, so the whole point of having an active block is just that, it should be "active" so that you are having to make a choice to block or not. Thats where the fun is, so even though you are "just holding a button down" there should be a lot more to it than that, and it is certainly better than not having that choice at all, which would be even less fun

    B- How active block fits into combat design and balance

    Active block also allows for a more defensive/survivability style of play. I think this is another aspect of fun that it adds, by having an engaging mechanic that also adds another style of combat. This can add a strategic layer to the combat, and also help establish the class advantages through having another mechanic to leverage (such as the tank being better at active blocking)

    C) Balance concerns

    Really the only concern is when make defensive play so overly powerful that combat can never really progress when played optimally, because players will be encouraged to just avoid combat altogether, becoming too "passive" which makes for boring slow-paced combat. Active block (and any form of defense) should be viable, and should have a purpose. But from a combat perspective "engaging" the enemy should alway be rewarded more than dis-engaging (I am referring to the overall combat design and grand scheme of things, not neccesarily niche situations where it may be beneficial to stop attacking and reposition).

    As long as offense has a way to engage a passive player and "force them to play the game" and interact, then the combat pacing will be more engaging and fun

    D) Potential solutions

    In the context of Ashes, I don't know enough about how active block works to say for sure what a solution would be, but in a situation where active block is 100% damage mitigation with no counterplay (which would be fine because I want defense to be a viable playstyle)- then with that being the case, really the only way to prevent that combat-avoidant strategy would be to limit its usage.

    If the design team chose to take the approach that active block can be directly countered by a specific type of offense/blindspot/or if it isn't 100% damage mitigation- then there really is no need to limit active block's usage at that point (in terms of preventing combat avoidance), since using the tactic of relying on block to permanently avoid fighting would result in taking damage over time and eventually lose the battle, so you wouldn't want to further handicap block through a usage limit.
    I wouldn't like this approach myself since it would turn the offense/defense relationship into a more luck based system, rather than a more skillful, fun, overall management of tools and resources that would be fostered through allowing defense to have 100% success rate but tied to a resource to limit its usage. Because of this, having a direct counter to block could also potentially lead to an imbalance between offense and defensive styles, while also making shorter range weapons worse since they rely on defense to close the gap.

    Assuming the current approach is 100% survivability during active block- I think a good way to do this is to have "diminishing returns" on all forms of the "active" forms of combat survivability- such as retreating/evasion/shielding. This will allow for survivability/defense to be viable and have a purpose when you are the target of an attack, but punishes someone who uses it as a crutch to avoid combat, which allows for more of that back and forth between offense and defense to occur for more fun and engaging combat.

    Diminishing returns could be handled in different ways, but along with a lot of the others on this thread I do hope that Interpid adds some form of it to shielding, and that it isn't tied to the same ressource as your movement/evasive actions. I think this would be bad because you generally use movement and evasion a lot more, so you would either never have access to shield, after moving and evading- or have too much access to shield if you havent moved or evaded in a while. I think a good option could be to have the active block tied to stamina, but then have a "staleness" system for running and evasion (similar to how Super Smash Brothers Ultimate has "staleness" for spotdodging/dodge rolls/airdodges) where they gradually lose effectiveness in their speed and/or invincibility frames after continuous usage. This would allow for shield to be taken out or used in bursts, which would support its more situational purpose- while still allowing you to run to reposition and to evade attacks frequently, like you should be able to do, but avoiding the boring overly passive combat avoidant strategies where playing just run away and spam dodge rolls.

    5. Is there anything in particular you’re excited or concerned about regarding what was shown with the Cleric update and weapons demo?

    A) My reaction to the combat pacing

    My initial reaction to the stream was that the combat pacing seemed a bit slow, easy, and slightly on the repetitive/predictable side of things. I am sure this has to do with a lot of the abilities being turned off and using weaker mob types, but that was just my honest reaction. It seemed like the class abilities were super slow and easy to react to and avoid, it seemed like there was a lot of rooted actions (like active block and the class abilties not having much freedom of movement/movement speed). I understand that movement is a "lever to pull" when adding risk to higher reward actions, or giving actions specific uses and weaknesses, but it just seemed like everything could be tuned up a bit speed wise- so that the combat pacing is a little faster, and so that the slower abilties are more practical, and could at least be used for making prediction-based plays within a pvp setting before the opponent could react and evade. Again, that may just be my perception due to being a spectator and not actually playing, but those are my concerns.

    Since im on the topic and its been a while since we have actually seen some combat gameplay, and while im throwing in these sort of case studies and references of mechanics/systems from different games- I have to bring up "Crosscode". This is my favorite combat system of all time, that I am truly addicted too and had the most fun with. It is an action jrpg set in an mmo universe, with fast paced deep combat, along with highly difficult pve that has certain enemies that have adaptive A.I. who adapt to your strategies- which at times simulates actual pvp combat. I think a lot of inspiration can be drawn from it to make combat the most desirable experience possible. I had so much fun with it that I would grind mobs for hours at a time just for the fun if it. I really hope this game gets more attention because its ideas really do deserve a look and should be learned from, especially if combat is at all important to you.

    Here is a quick overview of crosscode's combat system:

    One aspect that I absolutely loved and hoped would be in Ashes in some way, because of their risk/reward design pillar, is having a combat grade during combat, where the game grades your performance at any given time during combat but resets after a short period without action, with the higher your grade meaning greater loot drops. This was an awesome experience because of the decision to either stop fighting or to risk trying to earn and maintain that next combat rank while trying to maximize your efficiency to kill mobs asap, but while simultaneously trying to pull more mobs before your rank would reset to nothing. Nothing is like getting that oh so satisfying S-rank, which prompts the transition into the ultimate hype music linked here:

    There are a lot of different aspects that are awesome such as the jumping puzzles, the hidden areas that require investigation/puzzle solving/questing to reveal and access, etc., but im not gonna go off topic-

    If you want to know more about/get inspiration from the game, here is an overview that goes over the type of awesome experience it is-;t=542s

    B- My reaction to the overall "flow of the experience" during the showcase

    As far as how "dowtime" was portrayed in the stream-
    I think that determining "when" and "how long" downtime should occur is very crucial to get right. As someone brought up in another related thread recently, I think that it is extremely important to make people feel good even when they are not playing the game, so they don't feel like they are losing efficiency simply because they don't have time to be playing the game 24/7, which feels terrible. However, on the flip side, you also don't want to be trying to play the game, but feel like you can't accomplish anything or have fun because the game is forcing you to take a break. Its really important to balance these in the best way possible.

    In the stream, downtime was showcased through the mana depletion and sitting mechanics. Just to clarify, by "downtime" I mean "encouraging less/no meaningful gameplay"- so just because you may be in a situation of "not pressing any buttons" doesn't always mean there is no thought/purpose or "meaningful gameplay" behind it. So, if sitting is a mechanic to add a form of risk by triggering mob respawns or making yourself vulnerable to ambushes, then that could potentially qualify as "meaningful gameplay" even if you aren't actively pressing any buttons, because you are actively having to make that decision and engage with that mechanic. Though in certain cases, I still could consider it downtime if you are being forced to do that rather than something even more engaging that you would rather be doing. So, downtime is more about the time you spend not doing anything engaging/forcing the player to do something less engaging than what they are already doing.

    I think the best way to handle downtime is to understand how frequently a reasonable person would need to leave their computer and for how long at a time. That said there probably shouldn't be random 30 second periods of time that you wouldn't really be able to actual use for anything useful, such as going to the bathroom and getting a drink, and it probably shouldn't occur once every 2 minutes because nobody (for the most part) needs to get up that many times during a play session. Once this is determined, you would want it to be encouraged, through making the downtime equally as efficient as playing the game. If it is "just as optimal" to take a break, then players won't feel bad about taking a break.

    I think the mmo "Warframe" does decent at this (at times), because you really feel like you can get a good play session in and get a lot done, but then have an "efficiency cap" through sometimes having to wait like 12 hours for something to craft, which makes you feel satisfied with what you got done to get all the materials and make the preparations to begin the crafting process, but still comfortable with taking a break and coming back the next day. This is great other than the "pay for convenience" aspects- and maybe Intrepid could introduce a "play-for-convenience" mechanic, where you can earn items that allow you too skip these "encouraged downtimes" if you have a day where you just want to play and not take a break while still progressing efficiently, but you should have to earn those items through playing and choose to use them wisely.

    C) How mana depletion fits into the "flow of the experience"

    Based on the above, I don't really see a point in having your mana deplete so abruptly with not much flexibility, and then having to leave combat to then sit and recharge it. I don't mind sitting as a mechanic as it is now, but it is less engaging than actually being in a fight- so seeing as how the mana can deplete relatively quickly, why force the player to have that "downtime" so frequently? I think it would be much better to increase mana efficiency and recharge rates (at an individual level, and not reliant on potions or teammate buffs). Doing this would make sure that:
    1. survivability builds that rely on long-term mana sustainability, are more viable
    2. the player can go much longer periods of time enjoying the combat before being forced to sit and take a break to rejuvinate (if at all? Because- Can you really safely leave your computer while doing this to utilize these short spurts of downtime, compared to implementing linger periods of downtime elsewhere? Otherwise why downgrade from combat to "the sitting experience", other than encouraging more social interactions, but does it have to happen that frequently?)
    - The power and intelligence of the enemies could be increased to compensate for the improvement to mana usage- which would overall result in more exhilerating combat and for longer periods of time
    - mana regen could even be tied to an active skill that you have access to at all times to weave between your movement and attacks to recharge your mana- or mana regen could be tied to successfully dodging/evading/landing attacks, as I will explain below.

    I think in order to enhance the overall flow of the experience, specifically within the mana depletion system- the best option would be to
    reward "successful combat actions" with mana. This could be the act of blocking an attack (maybe with a perfect parry rewarding more mana), it could be a well timed dodge rewarding mana, a successful attack rewarding mana, etc.
    I think this is a multi-faceted solution that could:

    1. Encourage people to engage with both the defensive/offensive aspects of the combat system, since a "successful action" would require an interaction between offense/defense to occur. This would counteract the tendency people have to use the strategy of avoiding combat altogether in an attempt to optimize survival, even when the design intention is for people to fight (the topic I addressed in the combat pacing section)
    2. This would also Maximize the "flow" experience that people get when they are doing well and having a good time. If someone is doing good and having fun, this would provide them with the resource that allows them to continue doing so for a longer period of time, rather than having their experience halted when running out of mana.
    3. It also would still allow for downtime to occur if desired, by allowing them to run out of mana when they are not fighting as efficiently, because they wouldn't be getting that mana rewarded if they aren't getting those "successful actions" at a high enough rate to continue fighting

    As a side note because its relevant to the point I am making about mana regen- I feel I should bring up the fact that there has already been some discussion in other recent threads about tieing mana regen to other support classes or potions. I don't think potions would be a good idea for mana regen mid-combat, because mid-combat potions should require inherhent risk to avoid potion spam invalidating combat skill- so if there is risk with mid-combat potions, you would need to use your combat skill to put yourself in a position to safely use your mana potions, which would kind of be hard to do with no mana- meaning you probly wouldn't be able to safely use them mid-combat, resulting in no mana and having to take a break from combat to recharge, which equals less fun, far too frequently with the current mana depletion rates. I also don't like having to rely on teammates to be able to play and use my skills, it sounds less fun, so I wouldn't want to mana regen being tied to support classes either. I think more efficient base mana usage and regen for each individual class would be best.

    D)How else can you balance gameplay and downtime for the best possible experience flow?

    That said- during the actual periods of downtime, this could be great to introduce some of the fun mini-game experiences that aren't really "viable for efficiency gameplay loops", such as board games, card games, and stuff like that, so that they aren't necessarily exlcusive to a specific location like a tavern, and could be used during "downtime" wherever it may occur. This would give players something fun to do, that they wouldn't normally participate in due to a lack of efficiency- that they can do if they don't really want to take a break from playing during that downtime. This would mean players still have a choice to play and have fun, but wouldn't have an advantage over those who opt for taking a break during downtime.

    In terms of the overall flow of the experience I got from watching the stream- I like when the intensity and fequency of engagements are dynamic and unpredictable as you enter an unfamiliar area. It is nice when you are traveling through an area and the size of the mobs, their difficulty, and their respawn rates are different throughout the area and surprise you. This keeps you on your toes, forces you to adapt, and keeps things fresh, which is fun. It also kind of provides options for the player to tailor their own experience by finding an area that has that specific combination of factors that they prefer for grinding/doing whatever in that area.

    E) other notes

    Some additional things I loved about the cleric combat in the showcase were:
    1. the ideas for class based resources you have to manage, such as "convictions" for the cleric.
    2. I also love the freedom of choice when it comes to weapons/armor/classes.
    3. I love the collision system and how it makes character positioning a more important skill

    6. Share your thoughts about the hotbar, icons, minimap, party and targeting UI shown.

    Im kind of torn on the mini map- I love the idea of having no mini map which allows poeple to get lost and have outdated info, meaning they have to be skillful and purposeful with their travel while exploring and experiencing the content. However I also like being able to have that situational awareness of the surrounding terrain that the mini map provides.
    I think maybe having something like a "fog of war" on the mini map could potentially allow for both to occur? I haven't researched enough about this particular mechanic to provide a clear solution. I do love the experience in the "Total War" series where you have to have troops in the area to be able to see what is going on due to the fog of war. This had provided experiences where I may have scouted an area earlier to find a low level town with minimal troops, disregarding it as a threat, only to then lose my troops in the area, and thus my visuals on that town; Causing me to then forget about that area, to then come back and find out they have upgraded and built up a massive garrison of troops on my flank. I think this is pretty cool and fun, and could still exist along with a mini- map.

    To reference another Crosscode feature that relates to the mini-map, it allows you to place markers on the map, with different icons that represent different things. Such as:

    1. a question mark, so you can place that on unexplored parts of the map
    2. an exclamation point, to place on people you don't want to forget to talk too,
    3. a cross to show there is a potential mystery or puzzle that needs to be solved later
    4. an "X" to represent an spot you uncovered on the map
    5. arrows that you can plot to represent a path/jump puzzle route that leads to different spots
    6. a marker shaped like the different tiers of treasures that you can't access yet and need to come back for when you are capable of opening them
    7. a diamond for all purpose use, such as to represent a treasure that used to be in that spot but you have found already, so it can serve as a reminder so you don't get confused thinking something should be there and you need to solve how to make it appear.
    8. A skull to show a dangerous area

    This is a very appreciated quality of life feature that makes it feel satisfying and rewarding to explore and plot an area, making later trips way more convenient if you took the time plot everything during your first trip to that area.

    Crosscode does this really well as shown in this vid at 6:17;t=386s

    7. Please don’t feel limited by the thought starters above. Feel free to share anything you’d like about Ashes of Creation’s Cleric archetype and the weapons shown during the November Development Update

    The overall feeling of exploration and immersion was amazing as expected. I really love the idea of rewards that are tied to specific locations you have to reach (such as the hills providing unique vantage points). This really rewards exploration, and can make for some really fun challenges to access certain locations, such as hidden mysterious areas/terrain based jumping puzzles/boss fights/etc. This is another thing Crosscode does amazingly, that would fit great into Ashes, as explained in this video:;t=547s


    Intrepid is really setting the quality standard high, and in the past have asked for input on our own experiences and fun games that we have played. I hope you guys continue to be open minded and see the value in games that aren't neccessarily "MMOS" but that have proven to specialize in similar types of gameplay experiences that you plan to provide in Ashes.

    A lot of games have some amazing ideas that would fit perfectly alongside the rest of Ashes' systems with just some tuning. I really hope I helped you see how much fun there is to be had by evaluating a lot of the systems showed off during this past livestream and taking inspiration from games like Crosscode (action combat elements/exploration elements), Overwatch (updated philosophy on modern class design/balance), and competitive Pokemon (meta design), etc. to really nail some of these experiences you are going for- through adopting these games' well-received lessons/philosphies/concepts/mechanics within the context and intentions of Ashes.

    Overall Ashes has an absolutely insane amount of potential. I hope I effectively communicated how all these ideas could fit cohesively together to create an experience of which the sum is greater than its parts, and would take Ashes to that next level to make something truly special-
    Thanks for reading my post!
  • How do you feel about the synergy between archetypes and status conditions?
    I think having synergy between classes is a great feature. I can just imagine it will be hard to balance. This does present the potential for meta team comps to be made further down the line if synergy builds can be made but this is a very advanced bit of feedback but definitely worth baring in mind. Big fan of it for PVE!

    Do you think party composition should amplify the meta?

    Again, as I just said, it doesn't affect PVE as much as it will affect PVP. If it can be balanced well so that all archetypes are viable, then there is no issue but I understand that this is a big undertaking. I worry that with the amount of archetype and class-based features that will be in the game, its going to be hard to balance it all and I can see meta comps emerging. This will ruin small PVP events like arenas and caravans because the meta team comp will crush all the competition because their synergy perks are better than everyone else's. If it can be balanced though, it'll be a really unique system.

    What are your thoughts regarding the active blocking shown during the November Update?
    Its a good combat feature. It just needs to have scaled durabilities depending on which weapons are being used. Shields should have the highest and daggers etc should have the lowest. Steven briefly mentioned the possibility of a stamina bar being added. For me, this is a MUST. Block and sprint stamina is like health and mana bars - they are just mandatory.

    Share your thoughts about the Hotbar, icons, minimap, party, and targeting UI shown.
    The Hotbar was fine. I like how minimal it is but I know AOC will have an expansive UI customization system so for those who want more going on in regard to their hotbars, I'm assuming that will be available. The icons look great. good size, and shape, and the art is colorful and different enough for each ability. Big plus. Minimap again was fine. Will be interesting to see how POIs will appear on their and other alerts in the future. Party and player icons were fine too. nice and bold. My only complaint is I'd like my player picture to be something other than my archetype logo. I'm not sure what but customization or features in-game to collect and show off trophies and achievements here would be something I'd find interesting. Targeting UI does need work. The name plates for enemies were not very clear I thought but If this is customizable, then ignore me. Same for player and party nameplates.

    Is there anything, in particular, you’re excited or concerned about regarding what was shown with the Cleric update and weapons demo?

    The mobs that are in the trash packs (Scholars, zombies etc), didn’t really have a lot of flare about them. They looked like more of an inconvenience than an obstacle, which in MMOs are very different. They lacked that dynamic edge that makes the gameplay look fun. I was thinking that having to go through that many mobs would become tiresome. maybe reduce the number of trash packs or make them more dynamic. Again, I'm sure this is being done and it's not even A2 yet but feedback is feedback.
  • The cleric is spot on as opposed to the Fighter.

    The cleric should have the "Magic Hammer Crush" ability that SMITES the targets which the Fighter was casting. It suits it's archetype.

    Fighter mains dont want conjured magic, they want physical prowess. Dont make the same mistake as AA.

    Dont forget fighter subclasses, The hammer is perfect for Fighter/clerics for example, fighter mage and fighter summoner would use magic in some way or form in there kit so your second statment isnt entirely true, that being said though these are lvl 15 so pre sub class level however the skills themselfs might be higher level skills on lower level character because higher level skills tend to be more flashier to show off than lower level stuff so this might be the case here too.

    But i do agree the holy hammer looking shouldnt be on base fighter kit
  • Arya_Yeshe wrote: »
    oneuproad wrote: »
    - Taking mana, use it as own, or storing it to give it to someone else.
    - A spell that removes everyone's mana and distribute it equally amongst members.
    - If some other classes may have self-mana management, then their mana can be fed with the first example into the mana distributor class for overall group performance.
    - Conversion of HP into MP. (A skill to be used only outside of danger)

    Being able to just rest without usage of consumables just feels like a lazy design, It feels unengaging.

    I lke this "giving mana" stuff and sharing the mana equally amogst all party members
    I would rather have this kind of stuff than having the fast mana regens we saw in the stream

    Skill battle meditation for regenerating mana during combat would be EXTREMELY NICE, but you would have to stay still, if you move then you would leave the trance. You would be able to attack and defend while having all cooldowns increased in 100%

    Converting HP to MP is fine even during fights... the cooldown just have to be long enough and the casting time longer than healing spells

    Everquest 1 Necromancer kinda worked in this way to a degree.

    They had a skeleton form that would convert there HP to mana at a decent rate
    they had a life leach spell that took HP from enemies to heal themselfs
    They had a spell that took a large amount of mana from them to give it to somone else in your group.

    So effectivly they could function as a DPS with support where they leach there hp to mana turn some of that mana into HP via life leach on mobs and to give mana to the healers if they get low with there spell aswell i think was a good class kit in that game
  • Garrtok wrote: »
    Overall the cleric was not well explained and the blocking didn't seem to be impactful
    Recovering mana while sitting (NO HEALTH)-
    I like the thought of being in dungeons/raids and actually having to stop before a boss to sit and eat, and fill up everything.. Now-a-days it feels like you just rush everything, and there's no setup or anything. I think it's little breaks like these that really help break up the feeling of just doing 1 thing the whole time, and give you a breather. Or time to look at your inventory, manage things, etc
    Downtime provides an empty space for natural socialization to fill. It gives people the chance to talk rather than just mashing through content. A good example of the polar opposite is FF14 dungeons. There is almost no socialization in party finder, and one of the contributing factors to that is the lack of any downtime. The dungeons are devised in such a way that a tank can wall-to-wall pull absolutely all the monsters in an area, then the party can AoE them down, and if the players are using their mechanics properly as soon as those monsters are dead its off to the next batch, culminating in a boss that has its own mechanics and thus makes it difficult or impossible to actually type out anything. You just realistically don't have time to socialize.

    I don't think you need to make an energy usage for every kind of abilty/action. just stick to health and mana. people are saying use stamina for blocking, WHY? Just have everyone use mana for any type of action/abilty/dodge/roll/block regardless of class. That way resting (sitting down) is actually a usefull game mechanic that every class will use; not just the casters, which prevents people from being hostile towards casters who don't have mana potions. Because when we're all in a dugeon and need to sit down to recover, no one is just waiting on the casters and wanting to move on ahead while they sit to recover mana, (all have skin in the game)

    I understand you're trying to make a hybrid system and in order to do that active blocking seems like a perfect fit. However, I think there should be the choice b/w putting skill/stat points into (active blocking/shield) and for the tab target people just putting skill/stat points in the attribute block/parry/dodge. That way tanks can decide how they want to build their playstyle around and action combat people will feel like they are getting some action-y stuff. You can figure out the data and numbers on block mitigation for active and tab stat attribution based upon how they distribute the points when they level up. Also this helps the mages/summoners who don't want to have to active block with their orb/spellbook, (looks and feels weird). And if a caster is active blocking and they have an orb as their weapon etc. instead of holding up a shield like a tank, they could create a mana zone/bubble/barrier that comsumes mana when damaged; same goes for tank, when their shield is struck because mana is the global energy source.

    As far as the cleric goes, I am at a lost as to what type of class this is. Maybe I been spoiled with game like wow and ff14 but I thought healers (besides holy paladin) were squishy cloth users. What was shown was some in-your-face, running b/w the mobs, aggrowing, not staying in the back healing, bulky/tanky, physical class, limited healing spells, (2) heals tossed in. I hope you guys make a solid healing class that wears robes, scales off of wisdom/intellect, has an aray of healings spells/when ally is attacked spells that trigger heals. Not using a mace and shield but staff/book/cross/secptor etc. As a heal main I am sorry but I was disappointed if this is the type of healer I have to play as, my only saving grace is i'm hoping if I go cleric/cleric, the high priest is a comeplete 180

    In d&d clerics always wear heavy armor + shield. Cloth healer is more a wow invention.

    yeah most pre wow games cleric were in heavy armor, Clerics in Everquest were also heavy armor with mace and shield as there main set up
  • IzilIzil Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    edited December 2022
    Never played cleric so dont have any input on that gameplay.


    Sword audio was extremely loud and didnt make sense. I might be autistic to details, but If the fighter was hitting armored opponents i would understand that sound, but when hitting zombies and wolves.. Please make audio based on material getting hit :#
  • The most exciting aspect of the showcase was actually the area they were exploring. One of my favourite parts of mmo dungeons is the feeling of getting lost, or more importantly, the feeling of navigating the different pathways you can take. Just hearing them say that they got lost is music to my ears. To me, a railroaded exploration experience is completely soulless and uninteresting. So from a layout point of view, it looks very promising for adventure. I also enjoyed the sit and rest feature. I like it when the fast tempo of battle is offset by the moments of rest. It gives time to plan and communicate so you can navigate more as a team which in turn promotes social relations. I would love consumable additions such as a campfire, food and drink, bandages etc.

    The general concept of upgrading status effects is interesting, but forging links between upgrading status effects and archetypes will create problems. From my experience playing card games, one of the largest design pitfalls is creating predetermined synergy. For example, a card might have an effect that directly references other cards creating a collection of cards that are mandatory in a deck. Those cards then completely determine the identity of the deck, rather than simply adhering to looser ideas of synergy such as 'tempo' or 'control' which could involve a lot of combinations of cards.

    I can foresee there being problems later on for arena-style team composition when people feel like they are disadvantaged for not having a synergy. You would then have to offer other competing synergies which would make the game more convoluted, or you would need to offer the connecting synergy between mutliple archetypes. I think these types of exclusive and predetermined synergies are going to cause headaches later on when people figure out what is good and complain that the meta is stagnant because some archetypes are inseparable, and will make people feel like they are being punished for playing off-meta. I wouldn't underestimate how players will gravitate towards feeling like they have to play these synergies because the game is making the synergy predetermined.

    If you want to make composition important, think about the 'win conditions'. Does this party want to group everything up and aoe it down? Does this group want to cc a couple of targets and burst one down? Does this arena team want to play a slow attrition style? Does this arena team want to cc chain a target and burst someone else down? Of course, metas of what combinations are best will emerge, and compositions by nature exclude, but having each archetype fit into a looser idea of a playstyle or combination means you still have the possibility of having a group composition click, but have less chance of being excluded for being a 'wrong' archetype. It also takes synergy out of game text that means its less obvious what synergy is, fostering an air of innocence for the uninitiated and unconcerned. Whereas, predetermining how classes build off of each other might increase the possibility of exclusion.

    The idea around active blocking and stamina is interesting. I'm assuming when we are talking about block and stamina it's a resource bar that depletes as blocks are made, and it would be shared with other abilities such as sprint and dodge. If I'm assuming correctly, the system would successfully mitigate against constant blocking, but turning it into a resource management system might be a bit boring. It would also feel strange to have to soak attacks because your stamina is low, or to have your blocks be less effective for the same reason. I would prefer if block was not tied to a depleting resource bar, but instead could be broken by heavier telegraphed attacks, and if you try and block one of these attacks you could suffer a penalty like getting knocked back and become vulnerable to an attack for a short duration. That way, you have a more engaging survival experience as a tank by needing to pay attention and react and use your stamina to dodge certain attacks. It would also give your dps a job to do in fights that contain mobs that block. In pvp, having wind-up attacks break block would be an interesting component of fighting against a shield archetype. But also, you could include a cancel attack keystroke to give possibility of feint attacks for misdirection.
  • * What are your thoughts regarding the active blocking shown during the November Update?
    As I develop indie games myself (I know, Ashes is no indie game :) ), here are my 2 cents regarding this topic. I like the active blocking system, but it should not lead to being able to use it permanently. That would be boring for tanks, pvp fights, among other things. At the same time, I don't find stamina systems that share blocking, dodging, running, etc. optimal. It is somehow limiting. I have another suggestion that we can discuss.

    Without stamina, we have to note following aspects:
    - blocking should not be available permanently
    - the system must work for pve and pvp
    - the system should be fun

    Idea for PVE without stamina:
    - blocking should be intended to withstand violent blows from enemies or bosses. Like, a boss makes a heavy blow at the end of a boss phase, which you can only survive if you block in time.
    - to prevent permanent blocking, the effectiveness of blocking (damage reduction) should decrease exponentially after each strike
    - The longer a tank practices active blocking, the more threat he/she loses.
    - You can use the shield again directly when you put it away, but the damage reduction has a cooldown. Example: You use the shield, get hit several times, the effectiveness of the damage reduction therefore decreases. Only when you do not use the shield for X seconds do you regain full block effectiveness (cooldown).
    - AOE and similar skills should not be blockable (here you have to dodge to get out of the radius)
    = Result: No stamina needed, fun mechanics for bosses and enemys are possible, no permanently blocking, no clunky movement mechanics (no stamina for blocking, dodging and running together)

    Idea for PVP without stamina:
    - Same as PVE, but without threat lose of course
    = Result: No stamina needed, fun and interesting pvp fights, no permanently blocking, no clunky movement mechanics (no stamina for blocking, dodging and running together)

    I like this a lot. Perhaps the checks for successful blocks, and/or the reducing damage mitigation on successive hits, could be governed on a roll between the attackers and defenders' strength stat. Perhaps combined with weapon weight so that blocking with a dagger against a battleaxe does not mitigate much at all. Then as quoted above, you would have several advantages:
    > No need for a whole new resource such as stamina.
    > Realistic affect of character class (as strength plays in to the class) and weapon type.
    > Tactical play based on situation and opposition.
    > Nice synergy/blend between action based reflexes and RPG character stats.

    If the quoted idea is used please give a shout-out to MeisterYoda. Those of us who contribute feedback would love to get the occasional nod of approval back.

  • How do you feel about the synergy between archetypes and status conditions?
    Making higher level status condition require a 2-stage application is a very good idea. Groups can have 2 people using similar status effects and it not be wasted. On the flip side, I think it's also important that the synergy combinations apply to almost any 2 classes, so there are not "preferred" combinations in your group, but rather a preferred "spec/loadout" depending on what synergies you are trying to apply.

    Lastly, I hope that there are at least some synergies available to solo play

    Do you think party composition should amplify the meta?
    I think certain party compositions will be meta, that's unavoidable unless content is easy or class balance is the best we've ever seen.

    What are your thoughts regarding the active blocking shown during the November Update?
    I'm a big fan of active blocking, my thoughts on that an stamina from a post a couple months ago:

    A "stamina" bar that is used up doing various athletic/defensive things: dodging, active-block/parry, breaking stun, sprinting, etc. If you've played ESO, you probably see where I'm going with this. BUT one key difference is that this stamina should not be used for attacks. It's a limited resource that regens with time (probably modified by class or skill picks).

    Heavier armor and larger shields could modify cost and/or effect of dodge negatively (roll less distance and/or costs more), while affecting the cost and effect of blocking in positive way.

    For example (numbers NOT BALANCED): Everyone has 100 stamina and regens 10 stam/sec

    * Dodging in the lightest armor/weapons out there costs 20 stam
    * Dodging in a mix of leather and chain costs 30 stam
    * Dodging in the heaviest armor and shield costs 40 stam
    * * Optional, allow dodging while it's on cooldown, but it costs 50-100% more stam

    * Sprinting costs 10 stam/sec, and locks out most abilities
    * Holding block costs 10 stam/sec, and has various disadvantages: limits abilities, slows movement, etc.
    * Getting hit while blocking costs 5 stam, with a .5s cooldown. Max extra cost 10 stam/sec

    Share your thoughts about the hotbar, icons, minimap, party and targeting UI shown.
    The minimal UI is nice, and I like the borderless mini-map. The floating damage/heal numbers looked a bit disconnected from the target, and could be more readable. Lack of mob health bars really keeps me from knowing what other players are doing to mobs.

    Is there anything in particular you’re excited or concerned about regarding what was shown with the Cleric update and weapons demo?
    Love the fact that there is a damage-to-heal-better mechanic to go along with mana management. The abilities looked good and functioned like I would expect with a nice mix of heal, control and damage.

    I have concerns regarding the statement that non-healer classes will not be able to heal much, if at all. And even the (any-class)/cleric will likely only be healing themselves. The reason for this concern is showcased by today's 3-man party that needed a Cleric to do some overland content. If a 3-man party needs a Cleric (or Summoner/Cleric) to play without frequent stops, there is going to be a serious shortage of Clerics.

    I would expect every (any-class)/cleric to have limited heal-other abilities. HoT and/or lifedrain->spread and/or single target emergency heal and/or etc. This would be enough for small groups but not enough to replace a cleric in 8-man content.
  • LinikerLiniker Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    edited December 2022
    I'd like to add that NPCs need to have CCs that stops players from just running away like steven and the team did, NPCs need a higher movement speed and every pack should have some sort of stun/snare that are unavoidable, this is very important otherwise there is really no danger when you can just run away or mount and bypass every mob like we did in Alpha One - maybe you can also add a mechanic that slows you when you get hit from behind
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  • Arthus DawnbreakerArthus Dawnbreaker Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    The more I talked with friends and players in my guild and on discord I DO NOT think we should have active Blocking. It works in other games but not this type of game.

    Ashes is based off of DnD rules which is a stats and roll system.

    Blocking, Parrying, and Dodging chance should be based off of Original Stats, Armor Stats, Weapon Stats, and the skills you choose in the skill tree.

    Once you start giving players more ways to do those things it muddies the gameplay and balance of the other systems. I am fine with the Hybrid system with the ability to choose tab or action.

    Example #1: If you want to dodge an attack you either move your character out of the way or use a skill "blink" to blink left of the attack to miss it. or let your dodge chance stat and hope you get chance to dodge that attack or miss some of the damage.

    Example #2: If you want to block an attack as a tank it should come from a skill that (generates a shield for amount of time) or hope that your block chance is high enough from your main stats, armor, or weapon.

    I'm ok with blocking being as a skill on my action bar but not cool with it being a regular attack block button that I can hold down.
  • BlindsideBlindside Member
    edited December 2022
    1. How do you feel about the synergy between archetypes and status conditions?
    • Different archetypes having access to unique status conditions is good as long as none of the unique conditions become mandatory to the point where a specific archetype or archetypes become effective above all others.
    2. Do you think party composition should amplify the meta?
    • Party compositions should be used to create different playstyles in a group. For example, Group 1 party composition could be focused around slow, methodically and healthy clearing. Group 2 could be focused around high burst damage and mobility.
    • I would highly prefer if each archetype was self-sustainable and could play solo. Being forced to find groups to complete content can quickly lead to burnout and long wait times. I want to be able to play the game alone if I choose without feeling like I am forced to play with others.
    3. What are your thoughts regarding the active blocking shown during the November Update?
    • Active blocking can be a very skillful mechanic. However, blocks or defensive skills tied to cooldowns can also be very skillful as a form of cooldown tracking rather than resource management. I believe both can be implemented to lead to interesting and varied playstyles.
    4. Share your thoughts about the hotbar, icons, minimap, party and targeting UI shown.
    • 9 total abilities is quite low in comparison to many other MMOs. I believe weapon swapping was shown. I hope this also allows for a second bar of customizable weapon skills. I would also prefer if class abilities/utility/healing/elite skills were separate from weapon skills similar to what Guild Wars 2 has done. This results in players having 2 sets of unique and varied weapon abilities for different situations, with a set amount of utility (both offensive and defensive) options that can also be customized depending on their chosen archetypes.
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