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To get the quickest updates regarding Alpha Two, connect your Discord and Intrepid accounts here.
Threat management is not fun. For anyone.(Derailed, Discuss MMOs instead)
Sathrago
Member
Look, I understand its a classic way to do threat, but in my honest opinion I believe it just makes the game less fun. All of a sudden good dps players are not good because they do their rotations properly and do high damage, they are now "good" because they know when to not attack. This is silly, If you were to reverse it, it would be like ok tank, the only way to hold aggro is to stand there and hold block.
Halting actions in combat for this sort of reason makes it clunky and a chaotic mess when you have both a good damage dealer or a bad tank. Now, if tanks did their rotation and never lost aggro, the only time they would lose it is if they were not performing optimally. In that case, you either work with your tank to get better or find another one. The entire party is not punished as much as if dps accidentally throws one more global than normal of their rotation and now the group wipes.
So in the end I would suggest the threat system be tied to how well the tank performs, not how well the healer and dps are at not doing their job.
Edit: to clarify I do not mean that dps and healers no longer generate threat, I just think that if a tank is doing their rotations properly (I.E. Playing good), they should not lose aggro. The exceptions to this would be major level and gear disparities.
Halting actions in combat for this sort of reason makes it clunky and a chaotic mess when you have both a good damage dealer or a bad tank. Now, if tanks did their rotation and never lost aggro, the only time they would lose it is if they were not performing optimally. In that case, you either work with your tank to get better or find another one. The entire party is not punished as much as if dps accidentally throws one more global than normal of their rotation and now the group wipes.
So in the end I would suggest the threat system be tied to how well the tank performs, not how well the healer and dps are at not doing their job.
Edit: to clarify I do not mean that dps and healers no longer generate threat, I just think that if a tank is doing their rotations properly (I.E. Playing good), they should not lose aggro. The exceptions to this would be major level and gear disparities.
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Comments
I am not suggesting no threat at all for non-tanks. I just don't want or need tanks using their full rotation properly and still failing to hold aggro because the dps is doing a good job at his role, dpsing. If the tank dies he should be top of the list next, for sure, but I dont think he should have to worry about "dpsing too hard". its a silly concept and my friend group and I do not enjoy that sort of system.
The exceptions should be if there is a level disparity between the tank and the dps and, to a degree, gear.
Letting the tank pull is just common sense, but afterwards as a dps the mechanics should allow me to do the most damage possible without issues.
IMO, "threat management" is one of the foundations of the tank/healer/DPS framework and I enjoy it when a healthy balance is maintained between threat management and DPS/healing output.
can't go ham, full dps. slow your role.
This is a co-operative teamwork game. Approach each fight appropriately, like a puzzle - solve it. Learn when to go ham and when to slow down. Manage your mana, stamina and any other resources to avoid resting.
DEPTH - it's a good thing.
A DPS isnt doing a good job if all the are gonna do is go 0-100% and spam attack. If not, I hope you die. So don't pull aggro if you want to survive.
Sounds very boring as a DPS, you just walk up and spam abilities without needing to worry about anything.
Part of being a good tank is positioning. Having the boss jumping aggro around is a pain because it will ping pong. Dps need to know where there AoEs go, healers need to know where there heals will go.
I have tanked end game content for years. If I find that keeping aggro is a pain and the primary tanking loop, I think I'll drop tanking in Ashes.
Funny thing is my other primary role is dps and even that role will have to constantly worry about threat instead of just bringing the deeps and staying alive.
I don't know. I will certainly still play the game but it just sounds like a tedious mechanic that will get old.
Btw there is plenty of excellent, difficult and engaging end game large group content in games where micromanaging threat is not a mechanic. It is not a necessity it is a design choice. So certainly worth discussing.
My feedback is therefore moreso not that I strictly care a lot about if threat management is very difficult, but that I don't like the idea that being a good DPS is something that involves 'rotations'.
If there is a 'rotation' that is achieved between three people that can still fit the definition as I understand it, and that is required to cement threat on the tank, I think I would dislike this too. I feel like I need a better idea of how this works, since I do not generally play games with rotations, so obviously the mechanics of Tanking and Threat relative to it are not a common experience for me.
Can someone give me an example of a 'good DPS rotation' that involves some dynamism and teamwork but is still definitely still the type of rotation where Player A can be better than Player B (and not just equal to Bot C).
Why do you think lowering threat as a DPS only means not attacking? There could be effects tied to abilities that lower your threat, so you can always press buttons, but you still need to be aware enough to use these parts of your kit. It is a balancing act between high DPS and being safe.
I view threat (as any role) as another resource to manage, and I enjoy managing resources (mana, energy, health, threat, etc). But if the threat system is going to be a real thing, it should be easy for players to see and understand it.
I disagree with this. Firstly, I don't think PvE in MMORPGs should be a DPS race. If there's no chance for the tank to lose aggro and all mobs stick to him like glue no matter what happens so long as he isn't asleep, then PvE becomes just that, a DPS race. I think threat serving as a soft cap for DPS and healing is a good thing because it discourages min-maxing.
Secondly, the chance for the tank to lose aggro provides an element of chaos into PvE encounters and its this element of chaos that keeps content fresher longer. I don't want all PvE encounters to be a sure thing that goes the same way every time. Threat should be more than just the mechanic that makes every enemy in a five mile radius stick to the tank like glue so the DPS is free to AoE the trash stacks, it should give depth to encounters and variation in experiences with the same encounters.
In addition, threat being an actual mechanic that has to be managed is an opportunity to use crowd controls, and crowd controls are something that, once again, can add variation and chaos to PvE encounters.
Lastly, I don't really think the game should center entirely around preset rotations that you memorize like a game of Simon Says. I think the mechanics should have more depth than just pressing 10 buttons that all do the same thing in the right order. PvE content with solid mechanics shouldn't need to revolve around doing "rotations." Modern MMOs only started having their games revolve around "rotation" gameplay because they stripped the actual mechanics out. Mechanics like threat.
That's a pretty cute statement. There's not much I can add to the conversation. People clearly disagree. Yet some do seem to agree as well. No need to act like some petulant child who got his way. I never made any assumptions for others outside of my immediate friend group. I expressed the sentiment from within my group of friends. the "for anyone" in my title is in reference to the roles involved in the song and dance of threat. the dps role, healer role, and tank role. Not everyone that breathes on planet earth.
Now some may say that threat management is fun, I need you to explain that to me. Is it fun when the dps pulls aggro and gets killed, halting progression? Is it fun when the healer gets aggro because too much damage was taken and they were forced to "heal too much"? Is it fun making the entire group wait 5-10 seconds so that the tank can desperately fight to hold the attention of the enemies?
Personally, mechanics to dodge and engage with are the "fun" of an encounter. Dodge this, kill that add, interact with that mechanic. etc etc.
Why doing boring people like this exist in a genre of fantasy and expression, it's crazy.
When I refer to "dps rotation" its in reference to one player. This would involve a set of skills in the optimal order to produce damage be it single target or multi-target. I am not sure how to answer the 3 person rotation question though.
Huh? No, I just don't think threat is an important aspect that should heavily influence how a fight is engaged with barring the exceptions of gear and level disparities. A tank should be able to hold aggro and position the boss while engaging with other mechanics that make up the fight. Final Fantasy 14 does a really good job of this. If the tank plays properly there is no threat management for anyone else. If they play poorly then the group wipes. Thats the short and long of what I want. It's a much better system imo than worrying about the dps attacking 1 second too soon or playing "too good" at their role. Sure you can argue that threat management can describe a "good" dps, but only in regards to a system that forces that on the player. Without it a good and bad dps are decided by what they bring to the fight and how well they preform the mechanics of the fight.
I have a negative bias because I am aware of games where 'the optimal order' is generally static.
In the ones I play, it is not. Therefore, adapting one's order to have a result other than max deeps when your Tank is struggling, is an automatic assumption.
In general, I also play games where the choice for DPS is not usually (at average skill) 'Do this for max damage or be bad', it is 'do this for max damage or do this for some other benefit to the team'. And in that case, the choice is made by the situation.
I also seem to play games where the DPS wouldn't easily be able to grab so much hate off a Tank who is doing decently for them to die in the process. So please humor me, I genuinely don't understand if you're talking about the same sort of games at 'high level' where 'incredible DPS' can consistently win out over 'decent tanking' with no adaptation options, or if you're talking about something simplistic like certain eras of WoW, where your concern is totally valid but my bias reaction would at least be consistent.
If you want more depth and variation in encounters, why are you advocating for the same mechanic in every single encounter? I agree with depth and variation, I just don't think threat is the best way to do that when we have so many new and interesting ways that we could use to make the fights fun and engaging. I dislike threat management as one of those tools. Sorry.
Again, threat isn't needed for this. A group of high damage mobs can require CC because the tank will die, or one of them might have a mechanic that stuns the healer or sleeps a dps. Or perhaps it has a negative healing debuff it can throw on the tank. All of these are things that you would want to use CC for and no threat is involved in that equation.
The game will have rotations. Players will find certain skill combinations and use them as a rotation. The big bad meta as you would call it. This is something unavoidable unless you literally randomize all skill values and remove all comboing skills/abilities. So you can have either slot machine skills or player chosen rotations that are optimally chosen and popularized. This doesn't mean everyone plays the meta either. I don't, that's for sure. I play thematic characters as best I can. And for that character i find the best skills that thematically fit my character and do my role the best. Thus a non-meta rotation was born for my character.
We just have a fundamental disagreement on what good/engaging content is, and I hope that you find a game that suits your wishes. I'm not sure Ashes will be that game given the primary feedback and initial plan, but we can hope.
To be clear it's not like I go into a dungeon in say Classic WoW and just start shooting crap ignoring the fact that threat exists. I play by the rules when the game has those rules, I just don't like them in this case. The reason this whole topic came up was due to steven's tanking showcase. Multiple times the fighter ends up taking aggro almost immediately after a mob is pulled. This is something very prominent in older mmos where the tank needs to rush out and build up aggro, hoping it holds the entire fight or that their party members don't push that dps or heal button at the wrong time.
So yes, this is coming more from a WoW perspective because that's the kind of thing I was seeing in the tank showcase and it concerned me. I am by no means saying "oh no the games ruined this combat sucks" or anything like that. I understand its early in the process and that is also why I made the thread to give my feedback.
Those are mechanics tied to how the boss operates and do not require loss of threat to create those situations if the fight is tailored to do so. The boss can just choose to cast a spell on the healers. The boss can just choose to charge a random member of the party forcing the tank to react. The thing is, if you play right, threat management removes all those scenarios of "fun". Or you could just have those mechanics be apart of the fight and engage with them properly instead of when they rear their head due to someone in your party playing poorly.
you can have threat management and that too.
Tanks hold top threat, boss on tank. Boss will still occassionaly snap aggro on some and then return to tank.
Sorry, I dont believe in lazy DPS class, who sits there and spam. go play Dynasty Warrior or bullet hell genre game if all you want to do is go pew pew pew. Im sorry if you got ADHD and can't handle pausing for a few seconds, re-positioning, holding onto abilities. GASP.
This would be the threat management that still mostly holds it on the tank, but just requires more from the tank. And, obviously, all the mates can just unload on the boss and do their rotations and react to all the other mechanics as well.
I think a dps should be good at optimizing their dps while handling all the mechanics thrown at them (do damage, don't die). Threat counteracts optimizing your dps. For me, it's like being punished for being too good at doing damage. It's also annoying for the tank and everyone, just because someone spent time practicing to get the best output they can't.
For the record I've never played WoW which I understand has this mechanic. I have seen high end dps post screen shots of clears though. I ask them why they are dead in the screen shot, they say because I'm so good at doing dps. Sorry I just don't get the appeal.
What I am suggesting still has threat generation on all party members, I just want tanks to have the massive, clear advantage. I dont want to jump in with a tank, hit three buttons, only for my dps to use a big spell or combo that rips aggro off me. I don't want to be tanking 7 mobs, taking a ton of damage and because my healer used one too many spells they pull aggro from the mobs I didn't have the chance to build threat on.
In this case they are all doing their role, its just that the tank's "extra threat" is not able to keep up at all. I want it to keep up if the player on the tank is using their skills correctly and there is no major gear or level disparity. That is all.