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Threat management is not fun. For anyone.(Derailed, Discuss MMOs instead)

245

Comments

  • SathragoSathrago Member
    Stalwart wrote: »
    I don't think a dps that doesn't have to worry about threat is lazy. It's just a matter of holding your dps or not (which imo is annoying). There are tons and tons of mechanics out there that keep the whole group engaged. If the raid design has a dps just stand there to parse and do nothing else that is a boring raid and no threat minigame will save it.

    I think a dps should be good at optimizing their dps while handling all the mechanics thrown at them (do damage, don't die). Threat counteracts optimizing your dps. For me, it's like being punished for being too good at doing damage. It's also annoying for the tank and everyone.

    There it is. in bold. That's my point exactly. I don't care for that and think it shouldn't be that way. If you want to slow down damage dealt to a creature on a fight give it damage reduction, a "dance" of skills to avoid, or countless other mechanics the dps need to respond to in order to deal damage and survive. Dealing properly with a mechanic by interaction is in my opinion more fun than standing there twiddling my thumbs at random intervals of the fight to avoid threat generation.
    8vf24h7y7lio.jpg
    Commissioned at https://fiverr.com/ravenjuu
  • LudulluLudullu Member, Alpha Two
    Sathrago wrote: »
    What I am suggesting still has threat generation on all party members, I just want tanks to have the massive, clear advantage. I dont want to jump in with a tank, hit three buttons, only for my dps to use a big spell or combo that rips aggro off me. I don't want to be tanking 7 mobs, taking a ton of damage and because my healer used one too many spells they pull aggro from the mobs I didn't have the chance to build threat on.
    In this case they are all doing their role, its just that the tank's "extra threat" is not able to keep up at all. I want it to keep up if the player on the tank is using their skills correctly and there is no major gear or level disparity. That is all.
    If the tank has a massive advantage on threat gen, the game just becomes the classic "stand in one place and taunt everything that moves, while the others are just doing dmg/healing". Which is boring and the reason why some people want the system to be better.
  • StalwartStalwart Member, Alpha Two
    Sathrago wrote: »
    Stalwart wrote: »
    I don't think a dps that doesn't have to worry about threat is lazy. It's just a matter of holding your dps or not (which imo is annoying). There are tons and tons of mechanics out there that keep the whole group engaged. If the raid design has a dps just stand there to parse and do nothing else that is a boring raid and no threat minigame will save it.

    I think a dps should be good at optimizing their dps while handling all the mechanics thrown at them (do damage, don't die). Threat counteracts optimizing your dps. For me, it's like being punished for being too good at doing damage. It's also annoying for the tank and everyone.

    There it is. in bold. That's my point exactly. I don't care for that and think it shouldn't be that way. If you want to slow down damage dealt to a creature on a fight give it damage reduction, a "dance" of skills to avoid, or countless other mechanics the dps need to respond to in order to deal damage and survive. Dealing properly with a mechanic by interaction is in my opinion more fun than standing there twiddling my thumbs at random intervals of the fight to avoid threat generation.

    And I'm I tank main. I don't want my awesome dps friend to have to zone out in the middle of the raid because I have to get my threat back up. I want to see what kind of numbers he can push.
  • NishUKNishUK Member
    edited January 2023
    Sathrago wrote: »
    NishUK wrote: »
    You want to speed run mmorpg grind/bosses?

    Why doing boring people like this exist in a genre of fantasy and expression, it's crazy.

    Huh? No, I just don't think threat is an important aspect that should heavily influence how a fight is engaged with barring the exceptions of gear and level disparities. A tank should be able to hold aggro and position the boss while engaging with other mechanics that make up the fight. Final Fantasy 14 does a really good job of this. If the tank plays properly there is no threat management for anyone else. If they play poorly then the group wipes. Thats the short and long of what I want. It's a much better system imo than worrying about the dps attacking 1 second too soon or playing "too good" at their role. Sure you can argue that threat management can describe a "good" dps, but only in regards to a system that forces that on the player. Without it a good and bad dps are decided by what they bring to the fight and how well they preform the mechanics of the fight.

    oh dear me...

    MMORPG's overall have more interesting mechanics than FF14 that helps keep users engaged and happy to be on the screen without needing to go "Call of Duty" on the dps rotato in this RADICAL ULLLTTTIMAAAATE WEEEEAAAPPPON RAID! (cool electric music and guitars, ROCK ON!)

    The gameplay battle system that you're into is an entirely different beast, it is an accessibility and streamline overload and I bet it is so much fun to a younger audience and especially if it's their first mmorpg.
    You will desire more in the future, based off of your open mindedness.
  • SathragoSathrago Member
    Why do you guys keep ignoring that Im advocating for more mechanics in fights? Just because a dps doesnt have to worry about threat doesn't mean they suddenly stop moving, roll their face on the keyboard and forget everything else. That's ridiculous and not engaging with what I am saying.
    8vf24h7y7lio.jpg
    Commissioned at https://fiverr.com/ravenjuu
  • falcorpixfalcorpix Member
    Strongly disagree.
    Threat/aggro management is fun, as it provides a challenge to the tank. I don't want to be a target dummy for a boss, I want to be engaged in a fight, making sure I take the least amount of damage possible while keeping as much damage going on to keep aggro.

    It also separates the bad tanks from the good ones and the good tanks from the really good tanks.

    It can also mean that with some parties i can just chill as the DPS' arent that strong, while in others parties I have to be at top performance, and that to be is fun, going into a dungeon and not knowing what to expect from the DPS.
  • StalwartStalwart Member, Alpha Two
    edited January 2023
    NiKr wrote: »
    Sathrago wrote: »
    What I am suggesting still has threat generation on all party members, I just want tanks to have the massive, clear advantage. I dont want to jump in with a tank, hit three buttons, only for my dps to use a big spell or combo that rips aggro off me. I don't want to be tanking 7 mobs, taking a ton of damage and because my healer used one too many spells they pull aggro from the mobs I didn't have the chance to build threat on.
    In this case they are all doing their role, its just that the tank's "extra threat" is not able to keep up at all. I want it to keep up if the player on the tank is using their skills correctly and there is no major gear or level disparity. That is all.
    If the tank has a massive advantage on threat gen, the game just becomes the classic "stand in one place and taunt everything that moves, while the others are just doing dmg/healing". Which is boring and the reason why some people want the system to be better.

    There are games without threat management and it is not what you say. The tanks have to move the boss in positions, survive heavy burst of damage, dodge key attacks, swap bosses at the right time, debuff to improve dps numbers, buff the group so they can survive mechanics, etc, etc. If your entire raid relies on a threat minigame to be interesting it's a bad raid.
  • LudulluLudullu Member, Alpha Two
    Stalwart wrote: »
    The tanks have to move the boss in positions, survive heavy burst of damage, dodge key attacks, swap bosses at the right time, debuff to improve dps numbers, buff the group so they can survive mechanics, etc, etc. If your entire raid relys on a threat minigame to be interesting it's a bad raid.
    And all of this would still be true with what I'm saying.
    Sathrago wrote: »
    Why do you guys keep ignoring that Im advocating for more mechanics in fights? Just because a dps doesnt have to worry about threat doesn't mean they suddenly stop moving, roll their face on the keyboard and forget everything else. That's ridiculous and not engaging with what I am saying.
    And I want even more mechanics :) Having the boss and adds stay on the tank at most (if not all) times seems boring to me. Obviously all the other mechanics would remain, but tank could still be doing more or at least doing different stuff than just keeping aggro with taunt skills.
  • SathragoSathrago Member
    NiKr wrote: »

    And I want even more mechanics :) Having the boss and adds stay on the tank at most (if not all) times seems boring to me. Obviously all the other mechanics would remain, but tank could still be doing more or at least doing different stuff than just keeping aggro with taunt skills.

    The tank in a threat management scenario and a tank in a non-threat management scenario both playing optimally will play the exact same way. There is no change or extra mechanic for the tank. It's the dps and healers that are forced to engage with it. Their gameplay changes completely when they have to worry about doing too much damage/healing at the wrong time. This is the aspect I do not like and would prefer not to have.
    8vf24h7y7lio.jpg
    Commissioned at https://fiverr.com/ravenjuu
  • StalwartStalwart Member, Alpha Two
    edited January 2023
    NiKr wrote: »
    Stalwart wrote: »
    The tanks have to move the boss in positions, survive heavy burst of damage, dodge key attacks, swap bosses at the right time, debuff to improve dps numbers, buff the group so they can survive mechanics, etc, etc. If your entire raid relys on a threat minigame to be interesting it's a bad raid.
    And all of this would still be true with what I'm saying.
    Sathrago wrote: »
    Why do you guys keep ignoring that Im advocating for more mechanics in fights? Just because a dps doesnt have to worry about threat doesn't mean they suddenly stop moving, roll their face on the keyboard and forget everything else. That's ridiculous and not engaging with what I am saying.
    And I want even more mechanics :) Having the boss and adds stay on the tank at most (if not all) times seems boring to me. Obviously all the other mechanics would remain, but tank could still be doing more or at least doing different stuff than just keeping aggro with taunt skills.

    I'm saying instead of adding the threat minigame, let the dps optimize their damage to their heart's content. Now that extra mechanic that was just a little too much for the devs to add to the raid is fine to add to the raid.

    I also don't see holding dps in every raid you do because of a base game mechanic as a "fun" mechanic.
  • NishUKNishUK Member
    edited January 2023
    NiKr wrote: »
    Obviously all the other mechanics would remain, but tank could still be doing more or at least doing different stuff than just keeping aggro with taunt skills.

    NO you don't understand!

    The DPS must be going at MAXIMUM CAPCITY!!! (Square Enix ROCK ON/electric MUSIC!) DON'T STOPPPP!!!!!
    (touches face) "owwww that hurts, another boil, it's so rough being a teenager again".
  • LudulluLudullu Member, Alpha Two
    Sathrago wrote: »
    The tank in a threat management scenario and a tank in a non-threat management scenario both playing optimally will play the exact same way. There is no change or extra mechanic for the tank. It's the dps and healers that are forced to engage with it. Their gameplay changes completely when they have to worry about doing too much damage/healing at the wrong time. This is the aspect I do not like and would prefer not to have.
    The forcefield from the showcase provides another style of gameplay. Instead of just taunting the mobs, the tank can protect others by absorbing the damage meant for them. Mob/boss atks could be treated as action/projectile-based and the tank would have to move to the aggroed partymate and protect them with abilities similar to that forcefield.

    Stalwart wrote: »
    I'm saying instead of adding the threat minigame, let the dps optimize their damage to their heart's content. Now that extra mechanic that was just a little too much for the devs to add to the raid is fine to add to the raid.

    I also don't see holding dps in every raid you do because of a base game mechanic as a "fun" mechanic.
    And I'm talking about a purely tank-related feature that has pretty much nothing to do with dps or whatever they're doing.

    Like, literally nothing has to change for any other class. The boss would just lose aggro more often and the tank would have to react to it by using protective abilities similar to the forcefield from the showcase.
  • LudulluLudullu Member, Alpha Two
    NishUK wrote: »
    NO you don't understand!

    The DPS must be going at MAXIMUM CAPCITY!!! (Square Enix ROCK ON/electric MUSIC!) DON'T STOPPPP!!!!!
    (touches face) "owwww that hurts, another boil, it's so rough being a teenager again".
    You seemed like a reasonable person before. I guess my assumption was wrong. You comments lately come off way too trolly and pointless.
  • StalwartStalwart Member, Alpha Two
    NiKr wrote: »
    Sathrago wrote: »
    The tank in a threat management scenario and a tank in a non-threat management scenario both playing optimally will play the exact same way. There is no change or extra mechanic for the tank. It's the dps and healers that are forced to engage with it. Their gameplay changes completely when they have to worry about doing too much damage/healing at the wrong time. This is the aspect I do not like and would prefer not to have.
    The forcefield from the showcase provides another style of gameplay. Instead of just taunting the mobs, the tank can protect others by absorbing the damage meant for them. Mob/boss atks could be treated as action/projectile-based and the tank would have to move to the aggroed partymate and protect them with abilities similar to that forcefield.

    Stalwart wrote: »
    I'm saying instead of adding the threat minigame, let the dps optimize their damage to their heart's content. Now that extra mechanic that was just a little too much for the devs to add to the raid is fine to add to the raid.

    I also don't see holding dps in every raid you do because of a base game mechanic as a "fun" mechanic.
    And I'm talking about a purely tank-related feature that has pretty much nothing to do with dps or whatever they're doing.

    Like, literally nothing has to change for any other class. The boss would just lose aggro more often and the tank would have to react to it by using protective abilities similar to the forcefield from the showcase.

    I'm thinking of it from a tank perspective. Part of my job is to help them optimize their dps. Having a boss running away from me when I worked hard to get everything stable and set up for a good burn sounds annoying. The better the dps the more likely it happens. I could see if it was this one mechanic in this one dungeon but it's every raid all the time. Just seems like an unreliable mess with ppl complaining and no good way to know exactly what's going on under the hood.
  • LudulluLudullu Member, Alpha Two
    Stalwart wrote: »
    Just seems like an unreliable mess with ppl complaining and no good way to know exactly what's going on under the hood.
    That's why I think tanks should have a "link" with the boss that would tell them the next target of aggro (not purely threat-based), with maybe a second or two to react. The tank would need to communicate with the rest of the party and the dps could adjust to the movement of the boss.

    In other words, I just want something new rather than holding the boss in one place and waiting till dps do their job. I'm also thinking about it from the tank's perspective because I'm gonna be a tank and I want this kind of gameplay rather than the classic taunting.
  • StalwartStalwart Member, Alpha Two
    edited January 2023
    NiKr wrote: »
    Stalwart wrote: »
    Just seems like an unreliable mess with ppl complaining and no good way to know exactly what's going on under the hood.
    That's why I think tanks should have a "link" with the boss that would tell them the next target of aggro (not purely threat-based), with maybe a second or two to react. The tank would need to communicate with the rest of the party and the dps could adjust to the movement of the boss.

    In other words, I just want something new rather than holding the boss in one place and waiting till dps do their job. I'm also thinking about it from the tank's perspective because I'm gonna be a tank and I want this kind of gameplay rather than the classic taunting.

    That would be better than nothing but I'd still much rather they add engaging boss mechanics that don't let you just hold it in one place than a taunting minigame. I think it will get old fast as a base game mechanic.
  • NishUKNishUK Member
    NiKr wrote: »
    NishUK wrote: »
    NO you don't understand!

    The DPS must be going at MAXIMUM CAPCITY!!! (Square Enix ROCK ON/electric MUSIC!) DON'T STOPPPP!!!!!
    (touches face) "owwww that hurts, another boil, it's so rough being a teenager again".
    You seemed like a reasonable person before. I guess my assumption was wrong. You comments lately come off way too trolly and pointless.

    If you want a serious discussion with someone with the inability, currently of not having an open mind and inability to question their perceptions and feelings from playing a game they gotten addicted in some shape or form you go right ahead...

    My tactic is to make them look silly, yours is to keep poking in when they're stubbornly telling you "nah".

    This is the kind of back and for you forum dwellers love anyway so I hope you don't reply, I prefer sticking to the topic and jokes do help additionally make the world go round and make people think again, you should try it yourself sometime.
  • StalwartStalwart Member, Alpha Two
    edited January 2023
    NishUK wrote: »
    NiKr wrote: »
    NishUK wrote: »
    NO you don't understand!

    The DPS must be going at MAXIMUM CAPCITY!!! (Square Enix ROCK ON/electric MUSIC!) DON'T STOPPPP!!!!!
    (touches face) "owwww that hurts, another boil, it's so rough being a teenager again".
    You seemed like a reasonable person before. I guess my assumption was wrong. You comments lately come off way too trolly and pointless.

    If you want a serious discussion with someone with the inability, currently of not having an open mind and inability to question their perceptions and feelings from playing a game they gotten addicted in some shape or form you go right ahead...

    My tactic is to make them look silly, yours is to keep poking in when they're stubbornly telling you "nah".

    This is the kind of back and for you forum dwellers love anyway so I hope you don't reply, I prefer sticking to the topic and jokes do help additionally make the world go round and make people think again, you should try it yourself sometime.

    Pot meet kettle?

    I'm not trying to change anyone's mind, I'm trying to have them understand mine. I'm leaving feedback in an open discussion. At least you can acknowledge there are other points of view.

    Meanwhile, what have you added to the discussion that can help the devs?
  • LudulluLudullu Member, Alpha Two
    Stalwart wrote: »
    That would be better than nothing but I'd still much rather they add engaging boss mechanics that don't let you just hold it in one place than a taunting minigame. I think it will get old fast as a base game mechanic.
    Like I said, the mechanics would still be all the classics from other games. The tank would just have a single other method of upholding the threat - protecting others through actions that are not just "cast a defense buff on them". There already are similar mechanics in different games (I think FF14 has that tank dome iirc), I just want them to be more frequent than just a one- or two-off thing during an entire raid.
  • NishUKNishUK Member
    edited January 2023
    Stalwart wrote: »
    At least you can acknowledge there are other points of view.

    Other points of view that are completely disconnected from the needs of the many and the basis entirely being off of personal preference alone or some skewed perspective of everyone loves FF14 when not taking into the account the average age and average activity of participants in game and many other much popular gaming genres.

    Also no need to quote me entirely if you're just going to do a drive by post approach, just @ will do, saves the height of the forum :neutral:

  • StalwartStalwart Member, Alpha Two
    edited January 2023
    NishUK wrote: »
    Stalwart wrote: »
    At least you can acknowledge there are other points of view.

    Other points of view that are completely disconnected from the needs of the many and the basis entirely being off of personal preference alone or some skewed perspective of everyone loves FF14 when not taking into the account the average age and average activity of participants in game and many other much popular gaming genres.

    Also no need to quote me entirely if you're just going to do a drive by post approach, just @ will do, saves the height of the forum :neutral:

    I've never played FF14. Don't even know what you are getting at. Make a valid statement as others have. Cause and effect, pros and cons. Your "witty" quips are what muddy the thread up.
  • NishUKNishUK Member
    oh you big fuddy wuddy. This title and context has the gall to say that threat management is no fun for anyone and then references FF14 as an ideal system, I'm not talking about you specifically.

    Last post now.
  • novercalisnovercalis Member, Founder, Kickstarter, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Sathrago wrote: »
    Why do you guys keep ignoring that Im advocating for more mechanics in fights? Just because a dps doesnt have to worry about threat doesn't mean they suddenly stop moving, roll their face on the keyboard and forget everything else. That's ridiculous and not engaging with what I am saying.

    we agree with other mechanics WITH THREAT attached to it.

    Ignoring the DPS facerolling keyboard - you got the tank then who is just gonna zone out as he faceroll cause he's never going to worry about losing aggro. BORING gameplay. You know what keeps tank mains playing - trying to keep everyone alive.

    So, also put yourself in their shoes too.

    Im the cleric - sure my focus is to keep tank up, but if all my gameplay is just me having to hit F2 once then spam heal... Zzzzzz
    Now I see chaos, dps pulling threat, putting me in danger of pulling threat too - I am excited, my blood is racing, my heart is pumping - give me that dopamine.

    {UPK} United Player Killer - All your loot belongs to us.
  • novercalisnovercalis Member, Founder, Kickstarter, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Sathrago wrote: »
    NiKr wrote: »

    It's the dps and healers that are forced to engage with it. Their gameplay changes completely when they have to worry about doing too much damage/healing at the wrong time. This is the aspect I do not like and would prefer not to have.

    This is a thing called Risk/Reward

    you just don't want difficulty, you want ez mode with this statement. Go back and play your FF14 joke of an mmo.
    {UPK} United Player Killer - All your loot belongs to us.
  • novercalisnovercalis Member, Founder, Kickstarter, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    edited January 2023
    NishUK

    This is the kind of back and for you forum dwellers love anyway so I hope you don't reply, I prefer sticking to the topic and jokes do help additionally make the world go round and make people think again, you should try it yourself sometime.


    Says the person who joined in 2021 with over 300 comments.
    Go upstairs and go to bed and hopefully tomorrow morning, when your all sober, you won't say silly things, outside of dunking Jahlon's butt.
    Like im not even against you on other posts but lately, you sound drunk AF and posting weird.

    go have a kit kat
    {UPK} United Player Killer - All your loot belongs to us.
  • StalwartStalwart Member, Alpha Two
    edited January 2023
    novercalis wrote: »
    Sathrago wrote: »
    Why do you guys keep ignoring that Im advocating for more mechanics in fights? Just because a dps doesnt have to worry about threat doesn't mean they suddenly stop moving, roll their face on the keyboard and forget everything else. That's ridiculous and not engaging with what I am saying.

    we agree with other mechanics WITH THREAT attached to it.

    Ignoring the DPS facerolling keyboard - you got the tank then who is just gonna zone out as he faceroll cause he's never going to worry about losing aggro. BORING gameplay. You know what keeps tank mains playing - trying to keep everyone alive.

    So, also put yourself in their shoes too.

    Im the cleric - sure my focus is to keep tank up, but if all my gameplay is just me having to hit F2 once then spam heal... Zzzzzz
    Now I see chaos, dps pulling threat, putting me in danger of pulling threat too - I am excited, my blood is racing, my heart is pumping - give me that dopamine.

    There are many games with fun engaging raids that do not have a threat minigame. I don't see the justification to say it's needed or it becomes a faceroll. Having to stop dps and twiddle your thumbs so your tank can keep control of the fight is the most boring outcome I see.

    As far as healing, I do apologize. I have never played that role in any serious content. I know zero about it's dynamics. I've only tanked and dps'ed.
  • novercalisnovercalis Member, Founder, Kickstarter, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    edited January 2023
    There are many games with fun engaging raids that do have a threat minigame. I don't see the justification. Having to see dps go BRRRRRRRRRRR while your tank can keep control of the fight is the most boring outcome I see.

    Sorry - you and I are not gonna see eye to eye. I enjoy slow pace, I enjoy people working TOGETHER, knowing when to go 0-100 and when to go 50%. I enjoy battles where the tempo is different. Sorry, you're just a bad DPSer cause you dont know how to pace yourself. That's all i am hearing.

    You, we also got a thing called XP Debt. A mechanics that needs to be hanging over everyone head at all times. Meaning - if you pull threat, you die and if you die, you incur XP debt and it will take even longer to hit the next level. This threat needs to feel real. How does it feel real? Threat "minigame" as you call it.

    Instead of busting a nut in 10 seconds, maybe pace yourself, learn the encounter of when to go full throttle and when to slow down with some foreplay.

    It's a game, to be in constant engaged in from all angles, not a DPS meter simulator game.

    actually fuck it - it's not even DPS, it should be DPM
    {UPK} United Player Killer - All your loot belongs to us.
  • StalwartStalwart Member, Alpha Two
    edited January 2023
    novercalis wrote: »
    There are many games with fun engaging raids that do have a threat minigame. I don't see the justification. Having to see dps go BRRRRRRRRRRR while your tank can keep control of the fight is the most boring outcome I see.

    Sorry - you and I are not gonna see eye to eye. I enjoy slow pace, I enjoy people working TOGETHER, knowing when to go 0-100 and when to go 50%. I enjoy battles where the tempo is different. Sorry, you're just a bad DPSer cause you dont know how to pace yourself. That's all i am hearing.

    You, we also got a thing called XP Debt. A mechanics that needs to be hanging over everyone head at all times. Meaning - if you pull threat, you die and if you die, you incur XP debt and it will take even longer to hit the next level. This threat needs to feel real. How does it feel real? Threat "minigame" as you call it.

    Instead of busting a nut in 10 seconds, maybe pace yourself, learn the encounter of when to go full throttle and when to slow down with some foreplay.

    It's a game, to be in constant engaged in from all angles, not a DPS meter simulator game.

    actually fuck it - it's not even DPS, it should be DPM

    I would rather they keep those type of things in per-raid mechanics, not a game mechanic. Some raids you go all out, some you have to focus on priority targeting, some you have to do in depth mechanics, some you have to pace, etc. As a game mechanic, every raid you have to pace. It seems like a way to level off high-end dps players.
  • NishUKNishUK Member
    edited January 2023
    novercalis wrote: »
    Says the person who joined in 2021 with over 300 comments.
    Go upstairs and go to bed and hopefully tomorrow morning, when your all sober, you won't say silly things, outside of dunking Jahlon's butt.
    Like im not even against you on other posts but lately, you sound drunk AF and posting weird.

    go have a kit kat

    Awww I love you too man, I'll check out your profile also :smiley:

    I'm currently "drunk" on a good morning, any baffling threads I'm just having a good ol josh at!
    NishUK wrote: »
    Last post now.
  • pgt1027pgt1027 Member
    Sathrago wrote: »
    pgt1027 wrote: »
    I disagree with this. Firstly, I don't think PvE in MMORPGs should be a DPS race. If there's no chance for the tank to lose aggro and all mobs stick to him like glue no matter what happens so long as he isn't asleep, then PvE becomes just that, a DPS race. I think threat serving as a soft cap for DPS and healing is a good thing because it discourages min-maxing.
    All pve and pvp in the existence of infinity are a dps race in some form or manner. More mechanical things for players to engage with will not change that. People need to get the idea of removing or discouraging min-maxxing out of their heads. It's here to stay, people will do it with the smallest of advantages. If I want to build a glass cannon with no CC that's my decision to make and apart of the freedom a game like this is trying to promote with its (supposedly) vibrant class customization system.
    Secondly, the chance for the tank to lose aggro provides an element of chaos into PvE encounters and its this element of chaos that keeps content fresher longer. I don't want all PvE encounters to be a sure thing that goes the same way every time. Threat should be more than just the mechanic that makes every enemy in a five mile radius stick to the tank like glue so the DPS is free to AoE the trash stacks, it should give depth to encounters and variation in experiences with the same encounters.
    If you want more depth and variation in encounters, why are you advocating for the same mechanic in every single encounter? I agree with depth and variation, I just don't think threat is the best way to do that when we have so many new and interesting ways that we could use to make the fights fun and engaging. I dislike threat management as one of those tools. Sorry.
    In addition, threat being an actual mechanic that has to be managed is an opportunity to use crowd controls, and crowd controls are something that, once again, can add variation and chaos to PvE encounters.
    Again, threat isn't needed for this. A group of high damage mobs can require CC because the tank will die, or one of them might have a mechanic that stuns the healer or sleeps a dps. Or perhaps it has a negative healing debuff it can throw on the tank. All of these are things that you would want to use CC for and no threat is involved in that equation.
    Lastly, I don't really think the game should center entirely around preset rotations that you memorize like a game of Simon Says. I think the mechanics should have more depth than just pressing 10 buttons that all do the same thing in the right order. PvE content with solid mechanics shouldn't need to revolve around doing "rotations." Modern MMOs only started having their games revolve around "rotation" gameplay because they stripped the actual mechanics out. Mechanics like threat.
    The game will have rotations. Players will find certain skill combinations and use them as a rotation. The big bad meta as you would call it. This is something unavoidable unless you literally randomize all skill values and remove all comboing skills/abilities. So you can have either slot machine skills or player chosen rotations that are optimally chosen and popularized. This doesn't mean everyone plays the meta either. I don't, that's for sure. I play thematic characters as best I can. And for that character i find the best skills that thematically fit my character and do my role the best. Thus a non-meta rotation was born for my character.

    1) Not really. You yourself admit that threat causes people to put the breaks on the DPS race. That's why you don't like threat, as far as I can tell.

    2) A good game system should have consistent mechanics throughout that allow for a significant amount of depth and variation between encounters without having to introduce new mechanics. Without this, what you get is what we see with a lot of modern MMOs: most encounters are either dull DPS races or gimmick fights. A good system doesn't need for you to front-load every boss with a million gimmick mechanics.

    3) That's true, but one of the key purposes of crowd control is to control crowds, meaning mobs that got pulled of the tank or might get pulled off the tank. Trying to shut down an errant mob is one way that PvE encounters have an element of chaos injected into them.

    4) The "rotation" gameplay of most modern MMOs is the product of a particular set of developments largely unique to MMOs. That is, most modern MMORPGs have had all the mechanics stripped out of them and left players with a bunch of buttons that all do the same thing. So, the game suddenly starts being about pushing your 50 buttons that all do the same thing in the optimal order and then memorizing that order and repeating it in a big Simon Says game. You kill rotation gameplay simply by not having 50 "do damage" buttons. You have maybe 1-4 "do damage" buttons with the rest of the bar dedicated to actual mechanics.
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