Dev Discussion - Training (PvP)
Training is when players pull enemy NPCs onto other players in hopes that it will kill them. Some players see this as a valid and fun combat tactic to play around, and some do not. Would you like to see mechanics that support or discourage training in Ashes of Creation?
What can i say? Reputation, Notoriety and Personality
It's a dumb thing that takes away from the game. I think it needs to depend on reputation. Obviously not all NPC's are big-brained as a animal would not be considered something you might try to gain reputation with. However a person who might have raised and bred a certain animal could act the same way, to a degree... I hope to see none of the normal kiting of mobs onto people. They should focus the person who pulled them until someone intervenes.. if they do. I do not see how this adds to gameplay it is just annoying and ambience breaking when not moderated in some way. Now then again, if a animal or NPC has a notoriety of just hating everyone, a little fun might not be so bad as it tries to attack anyone closest to itself. Perhaps after a certain amount of time or distance where it has not been able to attack it will try to attack anything else it may deem hittable. A opportunity missed is the fact that AI does not need to be so simple anymore. Part of the crafting of a MMO should focus more on personality traits that affect how these things play out. Otherwise, again it's just a bland world beyond the skins, meshs and sounds.
Examples of this could be:
A NPC who travels from tavern to tavern and starts fights with people (Notoriety).
A NPC like a goblin that might not always allow you to kite it as it runs back to its group for support before engaging (Personality).
A creature who is overly aggressive who might choose to focus whoever it attacks for a extended distance before giving up (Personality)
A NPC group you worked for that would normally be neutral or act impartial might choose to help try to protect you within a reasonable range. (Reputation)
A animal that you breed normally that you are familiar with might allow you to pass by without aggro within a closer range and choose to aggro someone or something else before you (A bit of personality and reputation)
Conclusion:
I do not believe in all it needs to be a vanquished thing i just never seen it done right to make it fun for both parties who are using these mechanics to their advantage. It would take extra work that i understand a small studio like yours may not be able to waste time on to push the game out the door. But i think it will add to the flavor of the game as well as ways for experienced players who are aware of these things to have advantage in knowledge which i think is ok. But i still never think in your game a player who trains mobs onto others is ok, especially with open world dungeons/raids. It will cause many to quit your game and lose player-base if not built correctly. Especially with those fast respawns. There should be more to NPC life then just how they engage (Neutral, Semi-Aggressive and Aggressive) as is in most MMO's. Chance like any DnD roll might decide how it reacts too within reason. Static engagements can be exploited everytime and makes the game feel stale beyond the actual players.
My thoughts on the matter are that my life is REALLY busy as it is without having to walk the dev team through the logic mistakes they make when asking questions. Can someone explain how training mobs on others is possible without the griefer doing it being in danger themselves? Either there's some ability almost specifically designed to allow players to grief others (seriously, whatever ability allows you to do this, how would you even balance it for your overall systems?) OR the mobs are so pathetic to fight it's not even worth logging in to be griefed in the first place. Seriously not trust inspiring to be asked this.
My other thoughts are that at this point in the development of Ashes, I think the team should do us the courtesy of finally clarifying which audience this game is for. If you want this to be a circle jerk for griefers who need to vent the misery in their life by making someone else miserable online, then more power to you, but I'd like to know so I can stop caring about the game. The team has yet to clarify to us how a random player can avoid being persecuted endlessly by a dedicated group of griefers with nothing better to do than convince someone to stop playing. I hope the team is aware those types exist...
Bow before the Emperor and your lives shall be spared. Refuse to bow and your lives shall be speared.
I don't think a player should be able to grab a lot of enemies, and take them over a far distance, and deposit them neatly onto someone as a easy thing to accomplish. Such a action should take a significant amount of effort, skill, and probably multiple players to accomplish. Because frankly, being able to accomplish something like this should be possible, but take a lot of effort to do.
I also think, the more enemies that are pulled, the stronger they should get, maybe not by just raw damage, but by possibly faster attacks, more outgoing CC and interrupts, to discourage pulling large groups all by yourself so we want to group together, socially (you know, in a multiplayer game, not a solo RPG right?)
These kind of effects could become more intense the further things are pulled away from their natural spawn also, instead of having them leash back like in most games. (further making someone want a group to do large pulls)
Having mechanics like this, make it possible for griefers to have their laughs and fun if they want to, while not enabling them, and having a tool to balance them by ramping up the CC effects if its too easy to pull off the grief tactics, and they still have to deal with the corruption anyway, not like they get anything from this except a laugh.
It allows power farmers to develop strategies and tactics to powerfarm if they want to, without making things overpowered and boring like in BDO where I just grab dozens of things at once to cleave them all down with no danger.
If you are trying to run away from an attack and the enemy player follows you into a group of mobs, that's on them. That's not griefing.
and you expect Intrepid to look into every npc training situation that happens every single day multiple times a day in every server and decide what is griefing or not and punish players in some situations but not others? oh dear god
Would there be a way to make a mechanic wherein if a player who is not in your group pulls an enemy over to you, the enemy prioritizes that player until a certain threshold has been met of intentional threat diversion? By that, I mean you have to do like ~5% of the creatures health to start generating threat or you have to use a taunt ability or something? In this way, if you don't want threat, then minor amounts of damage won't make it change targets. But if you want to help in a non-hostile situation, it's not too hard to get threat off someone who might actually need help.
Or maybe, depending on how you guys ultimately do pvp flagging, maybe pvp-flagged players just generate a certain percentage more threat up front from any creature they tag, so it takes a bit longer to pull those enemies off them? I guess this is almost the same concept as above. But either way, this again would have to be mitigated by being grouped or using intentional threat-generating abilities so it doesn't inadvertantly cause harm in non-grieifng type situations.
I think its a bitch-ass tactic. That being said, so is kiting a melee player, so is camping, so is getting your guild to camp a resource, so is 2 v 1 etc. A lot of seriously effective tactics are widely hated by people they are used against. Does that make them unfair? NO. The same tactics are available to the other players, and they could easily spot what you're doing and change their tactics to compensate.
Training is a bitch-ass tactic but, by The Seven, it is effective!! It is a premeditated environmentally dependent strategy with limited applicability.
In the recent post by @Luthric about buttons and balance, Luthric spoke about how some players analyze and reflect on their own performance to overcome adverse situations, while others will complain that they were disadvantaged for whatever reason. The divide over this issue is clearly the same.
And a war dec and guild camp response level tactic if the recipient is in a bad mood. If someone's going to fight like a doggoblin, they can get buried like one.
At first, this seemed like a very strange question to ask. My first reaction was immediately that this is griefing and obviously shouldn't be in the game. But a couple other comments have brought up some good points. I think that mob aggro can be done in a way that is very immersive, realistic and appeals to common sense. For instance, if a player is running away from a mob and at some point uses invisibility, it would make sense for the mob to get confused and attack another nearby player if there was one. This would be more immersive but, if it was done intentionally, I would still consider it griefing. The other note I find interesting is the idea of training NPCs when a group is outnumbered. This would be a very good and reasonable tactic if your 2-man got attacked by a 5-man, which is likely to happen at some point.
What I think is more important than any of this though, is what training would mean for the corruption system. If this is a way for players to grief, be toxic or kill other players without reason while remaining safe from the corruption system, then I think that it absolutely should not exist in the game. In fact, it would seem completely counter-productive to the corruption system and all other systems that have taken time and effort to prevent griefing. If training mobs is an option, then it needs to fall under the same consequences as the corruption system. I know this could be a very difficult task and I'm not even sure if it is possible to differentiate in-game between when it is done on purpose or when it is an accident. But i don't think it makes any sense to design a work-around to the corruption system.
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H8edHeroMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
I don't mind the idea of it. In another MMO I liked to 1vX and sometimes when severely out numbered I would pull the players to roaming bosses to use it for LOS and get extra damage on them. This could back fire though if the game mechanics allow those Zerg's or anyone for that matter to heal the NPCs. The NPC should also target who ever pulled it if they stay on the agro table. So someone being "grieved" simply needs to not hit the NPC more than who ever brought it over. Again that's assuming the game can handle all these conditions. If it cant, it'd probably be best left out.
I don’t really see why this is called ‘training’ since imo it’s nothing but griefing from what I’m understanding now.
I never experienced that being called training, just very obvious griefing or trolling.
I also think calling this ‘training’ and not giving a video example or something of that sort has the potential to just confuse people that don’t know it by that name.
To me NPC training rather means something the afk leveling in BDO, which I btw don’t think is a good thing either. I don’t like afk “gameplay”.
Monster training can be a fun thing to do but also can be very toxic, just like how those tools like DPS meter can be. Part of me happy to see monster train in game, part of me feel your game design concept is not so
consistent on topics like this one.
To me, topics like this the answer always will be 'it depends on how you design it'. I think monster training is doable and controllable in game design to have fun and won't be just a weapon for toxic players. It depends on how much energy you put into the world you are creating.
So my opinion is probably going to be an unpopular one. Since Ashes is going to be a competitive game, and a competition for resources, farm zones, bosses will be a thing, I consider training a viable mechanic, as long as there are reactive ways for a player to avoid being grieved in this way. I'll give an example from the only game that I no-lifed at some point, Lineage 2:
Mobs in Lineage 2 are generally running slower than players, especially if the player is buffed for movement speed, so as soon as I see someone running at me with a train of mobs, even if I'm already in combat, I'll immediately stop whatever I was doing and book it in the opposite direction from the person who's trying to train me, possibly re-log as soon as I'm out of combat.
Mobs in Lineage 2 are only changing their target in specific scenarios:
A mob is aggressive and it loses it's current target while being close to it's spawnpoint. Some spells allowed a mob to lose it's target (feign death, switch target, seal of mirage, etc... not important)
A mob is in the same social group with the mob that someone is hitting, at which point it starts building up aggro towards the one hitting his friends.
In both of these scenarios you would be relatively safe if you just stop hitting the mob you were trying to kill and just stand idle for some time surviving on healing potions or spells until the trainer either dies from his own train or completely abandons the idea of training me.
TLDR: I'm okay with training, as long as there's a counter-play to it, which allows you to avoid dying from the train and potentially punish the person that was trying to get you stomped by the train. Otherwise it's just grieving and a mechanic that only punishes the victim, doesn't have any downsides to it and imposes no risk on the person committing this act.
I swear, some of these forum threads should be renamed to "Hey Intrepid, can you guys just make a game like WoW, so that we have another WoW to play while waiting for an expansion in WoW?"
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akabearMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
I would like to see training possible in game. Mobs with long leashes.
If understood that in various regions players have potential to train mobs on you or your team, then that is fine.
Was used as a great area clearer on and against us in L2 between player that were at war and those that wanted to take over an area for xp.
Also a great way for players to self regulate bots.
Allow training will also likely mean opportunity for powerlevelling... so that should also be part of the conversation.
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OrbificatorMember, Phoenix Initiative, Royalty, Kickstarter, Alpha One
edited February 2023
Personally, I believe this sort of interaction should generally be allowed but difficult to pull off.
The mob shouldn't switch aggro from the original aggressor without good reason.
While it is scummy, I see it as a part of living in a world like this. If it truly becomes a problem, sure mess with the aggro mechanics and combatants a bit. This seems like stuff that should be tested in alpha 2.
I'd prefer shorter leashes with various cc on all mobs. I think if someone wants to wipe a boss encounter a train would negate the corruption aspect. I feel we are losing ground about corruption the further we go along. I was going to be a bounty hunter but I feel the mechanics won't live up to expectation.
Glorious Ashes community - it's time for another Dev Discussion! Dev Discussion topics are kind of like a "reverse Q&A" - rather than you asking us questions about Ashes of Creation, we want to ask YOU what your thoughts are.
Our design team has compiled a list of burning questions we'd love to get your feedback on regarding gameplay, your past MMO experiences, and more. Join in on the Dev Discussion and share what makes gaming special to you!
Dev Discussion - Training (PvP)
Training is when players pull enemy NPCs onto other players in hopes that it will kill them. Some players see this as a valid and fun combat tactic to play around, and some do not. Would you like to see mechanics that support or discourage training in Ashes of Creation?
Keep an eye out for our next Dev Discussion
Realistically this won't really be possible to 100% prevent however I do think it should not be encouraged or facilitated. This is simply grieving unregulated by corruption as the mob dealt the killing blow not the player. However I think we need to discuss how that threat is transferred to the group.
1. Are players pulling mobs through another players AoEs?
It is what it is. If you see someone pulling extra adds, pro-tip don't attack them. Switch to single target mob focusing. This will definitely require more tab target options/abilities than we've seen so far however.
2. Are players pulling mobs till they drop aggro and the mob is relocking on another player?
This is bad design imo, if you pull a mob a given distance and drop aggro if no one remains within range who has attacked the mob it should reset and go home before targetting new players.
3. why is this player able to solo pull mobs so far without being sufficiently damaged to make such behaviour sufficiently hard to pull off. If you can pull 2-5 mobs into a party and it be a threat for them to burst down. The player pulling these mobs should be getting rushed down by those mobs and getting killed themselves. unless they are healing which should then raise them higher up the aggro table making the transfer of aggro even more difficult.
Depend on the design.
You should be able to do it, it's a PvX game where you can interact with the world.
But it should not be free (risky for the one who do it) or easy to do.
Like, if a player pull a mob at another player, the mob should focus the player who hit him and not change easily his focus to hit someone who simply walk there.
Or, have damage reduction from mob if you are not in the fight.
The goal for me would be to make it actual strategy and not a tool to block random people from playing.
My Opinion:
1) Mobs Should have long Leashes to prevent people from just running through dungeons.
2) Players shouldn't be able to Grief others while circumventing the flagging system.
3) There is no easy solution, Have Aoe's/Group Healing not aggro other's tagged mobs. Maybe the adds can have a higher than normal threat table to the person that aggros them (requiring tanks to taunt in their own party groups to cover group mistakes). Another thought, if the player that is "Training" dies the adds auto reset and run back to start. My final thought, have a system where Players from a different party automatically have a lower threat generation than players in the party that pulled the add.
It's a difficult question that I haven't seen answered in an MMORPG. I hope "Training" isn't in the game. If a solo player wants to clear a party of 5 out of a dungeon, he better get friends or be good enough to 1v5 imo.
Want to see mechanics tied to specific classes. Rogue is the obvious one.
It's a valid gameplay and scenario, heck, just watch walking dead or the lion king, it's full of it.
I never played a class that could utilize and I dont have an issue with it.
Long leash ftw, then slow walk for mobs, then return to original position.
Hard to answer this question. We don't have enough information about the game. My short answer is that you shouldn't encourage or discourage mob training. Not even sure how you would encourage or discourage something like that in the first place. It's just something that happens accidentally or purposefully. That's fine, it happens, most people are able to deal with it. It's not rocket surgery.
You should ENCOURAGE actual pvp to contest resources, not MOB TRAINING. Tf?
But as far as my personal opinion about mob trains - don't care generally. Use common sense. This question has common sense solutions. Of course mob training should be possible to some extent, in some locations, with certain types of mobs.
But there should not be a person who rolls out of bed, gets on his comp for another glorious day in Verra, and proceeds to train mobs on people all day, while making a competitive income doing it. It should be a bit more difficult and situational than that.
And if someone does train mobs on someone else, the "vast majority" of players should have an option to kill that player without insane consequences. Make it happen. Make a good game. Stop waffling and trying to play both sides.
Yeah this sounds like griefing from EverQuest team pvp servers. Terrible idea never fun gameplay, just interrupted leveling and got people to log off instead of enjoying their time. PvP is great, PVE is great, PVPVE is great. This is in the same realm as corpse camping someone 1/2 your level.
If your talking about Training from EverQuest where oh no you pulled 2 many mobs and need to zone out which as soon as you do releases every mob and they attack any player in the area, while it was an interesting mechanic it also wasn't fun, especially when the person didn't shout "TRAIN TO X" while they were running to the zone.
I think a better way to do something along these lines is have a long leash with a slow walk back to reset, combine this with migratory spawn and patrol locations and it doesn't feel like your going to pull and farm mobs that you know are going to spawn in a specific location, it feels like the mobs are alive, the nomadic minotaur people you've shown are actually moving between locations and their civilization feels real as opposed to all the other mmos that have static spawn locations. It feels like when they are "trained" to a new area they discovered it and may setup camp there because it's a good location in their eyes.
That being said I'm still opposed to trains in general.
Have long leashes on mobs so that this is possible, but give players different tools to address this mechanic. Aggro shifting abilities, pacifier abilities, fear abilities, etc etc etc.
Also, trying to pull a long train should be very difficult and result in very high chances of death. Mobs should have slows/roots/stuns/other CC that start to trigger way more often if there's several mobs clumped up together. Additionally, aggroing more mobs within the same location should trigger their social AI which will increase the aggro on the original train puller, so it's not as easy to lose the train.
Training is a form of Greifing, you are asking us if we think the game should have Greifing in it.
Yes if you want to make less money and have a more intense game with lots of long last memories
No if you want a profitable game that is bog-standard, forgettable, and short lived.
I'm not a game Developer so these types of questions shouldn't be asked to me.
My feed back if I was a developer is do not worry about emergent game play mechanics
If it happens just say its a bug, but leave a rare clever way for people to exploit it and a round about way to punish them.
For Example
If a mob leaves its spawn area have it not give XP or loot but force players to deal with mobs
If a mob is killed outside its leash have a respawn multiplier so players can choose to farm, clear, or make hoard traps.
Not sure if my feedback has any value, I am a bit cooked and people do not like my weird ideas, but success is not determined by an idea it is determined by the execution of many ideas without the fear to fail.
I think this is a form of griefing and should NOT be allowed by players to "pass" the aggro on without any action from the other player/group.
Lets make PVP... PVP and not PVP to PVEPVP someone. Hope I didn't P that up.
My Choices as a player with aggro:
1. Stay and fight to either win or die
2. Flee
3. Flee and get help from nearby players/groups
4. Log off (j/k)
My Choices as a player without the aggro:
1. Engage by healing or attacking enemy to help
2. Attack player and risk death from player or enemy
3. Remain neutral
4. If passing aggro is allowed... Alt + F4
DONT FORCE me to engage and remove my choice!!
If a player brings a mob to another player/group, and if the other player/group decides to engage in healing of the player or enter combat with the enemy, then yes that player/group should now be included in the threat table of that enemy.
If a player decides to assist the enemy instead, this should also put the player into the threat table as a deterrent to attacking vulnerable players.
In other words if I have aggro from the enemy and decide to run that enemy to another player/group cause I'm looking for help and they oblige me by engaging, then yes the other player/group is now in the threat table of the enemy.
If I bring an enemy over to another player/group and they do NOT engage, then NO they are not added to the threat table and thus should not be attacked by the enemy.
What are the implications to the corruption system if it were allowed to pass the aggro on without any action from the other player/group? This would become a loop hole or way to circumvent this system. I can't even guess at this point what other impacts this may have.
Edit: First.. players would simply use this as a way to abuse the system and is just not fun. Second, if you think about how many times in an MMO, that this is done simply by mistake or proximity to other players questing or combating near you, this would just become super annoying how many times someone accidently brings me aggro and I now have to deal with it. MAYBE this could spur some grouping up and social aspects of gameplay, but honestly I think it would just get to be a nightmare after the first day.
What do you do for a world boss where you are fighting/competing for the kill? How about the threat mechanic being what drives who gets "rights" to combat the boss. For 2 minutes groups can fight each other and hit the boss (boss and players are immune during this time from damage from each other, but threat can build) and whoever gains the most threat on the threat table is awarded the chance to kill the boss. Causing tanks to compete with each other indirectly in the open world and the boss essentially being "taunted" during this time period as it takes no action until the timer is up and the right to kill is awarded. An invisible bubble goes up pushing the other group out and only allowing the group awarded the kill in until they wipe or take the boss down. This is a bit unrelated to the core question, but a thought that just popped into my head that's kinda along these lines.
I feel that if you are out and about and engage with NPC and then get engaged with a PvP of another person that is ok. But pulling mob onto another shouldn't happen. The npc mob should go after who pulled them or disengage and return to where they initially were. Also, this would be a chessey way to avoid corruption
To be honest, I'd rather hear the potential solutions, and then decide which is the lesser of the two evils.
If we say: "No, stop this from happening!", and then you implement something worse in an attempt to stop it, then there'd be another outcry and you'd just have to end up reversing it all again, which would be a waste of development time.
I believe that Training will be deprimental to ashes of creations systems. Here is why.
In AoC you have the corruption system, a system that in essence prevents griefing and gives penalties to those players that kill indiscrimantly. when you add training to this mixture, people will find ways to circumvent the coruption system, and let the mobs do the killing for them. What is worse, by training, you only impose the negatives. If a noncombatant tries to kill the Trainer, that trainer might still be a noncombatant, thus by defending, they will gain corruption, instead of becomming a combatant. And if they don't defend themselves, and get killed, they incur the greater noncombatant death penalty.
Therefor i believe it will be detrimental and should not be in AoC
I think it's a valid option for PvP , many may say it's inciting grienfing , which is valid , but come on , if a person wants to griff then he will do it that's why corruption plays an important role within AoC. [/b]
That's the thing: under the current proposed system as it is, training will completely bypass corruption system. Also, griefing itself will be an actionable offense, that was iterated many times over.
I don't really understand the question because, in a mechanically challenging game, I don't see how a player could do this without dying the process. Kiting strong enemies around without actually fighting them seems like it should just result in you getting killed.
All you have to do is run into a neutral-ish mob crowd. You may pull simply by proximity, take a few hits, but then the hostile player's aoe/cleave/splash damage will do the aggro job and pull mobs from you onto them. In other words, NPCs will be angrier at your opponent for accidental damage than at you for standing too close.
Comments
Training is when players pull enemy NPCs onto other players in hopes that it will kill them. Some players see this as a valid and fun combat tactic to play around, and some do not. Would you like to see mechanics that support or discourage training in Ashes of Creation?
What can i say? Reputation, Notoriety and Personality
It's a dumb thing that takes away from the game. I think it needs to depend on reputation. Obviously not all NPC's are big-brained as a animal would not be considered something you might try to gain reputation with. However a person who might have raised and bred a certain animal could act the same way, to a degree... I hope to see none of the normal kiting of mobs onto people. They should focus the person who pulled them until someone intervenes.. if they do. I do not see how this adds to gameplay it is just annoying and ambience breaking when not moderated in some way. Now then again, if a animal or NPC has a notoriety of just hating everyone, a little fun might not be so bad as it tries to attack anyone closest to itself. Perhaps after a certain amount of time or distance where it has not been able to attack it will try to attack anything else it may deem hittable. A opportunity missed is the fact that AI does not need to be so simple anymore. Part of the crafting of a MMO should focus more on personality traits that affect how these things play out. Otherwise, again it's just a bland world beyond the skins, meshs and sounds.
Examples of this could be:
A NPC who travels from tavern to tavern and starts fights with people (Notoriety).
A NPC like a goblin that might not always allow you to kite it as it runs back to its group for support before engaging (Personality).
A creature who is overly aggressive who might choose to focus whoever it attacks for a extended distance before giving up (Personality)
A NPC group you worked for that would normally be neutral or act impartial might choose to help try to protect you within a reasonable range. (Reputation)
A animal that you breed normally that you are familiar with might allow you to pass by without aggro within a closer range and choose to aggro someone or something else before you (A bit of personality and reputation)
Conclusion:
I do not believe in all it needs to be a vanquished thing i just never seen it done right to make it fun for both parties who are using these mechanics to their advantage. It would take extra work that i understand a small studio like yours may not be able to waste time on to push the game out the door. But i think it will add to the flavor of the game as well as ways for experienced players who are aware of these things to have advantage in knowledge which i think is ok. But i still never think in your game a player who trains mobs onto others is ok, especially with open world dungeons/raids. It will cause many to quit your game and lose player-base if not built correctly. Especially with those fast respawns. There should be more to NPC life then just how they engage (Neutral, Semi-Aggressive and Aggressive) as is in most MMO's. Chance like any DnD roll might decide how it reacts too within reason. Static engagements can be exploited everytime and makes the game feel stale beyond the actual players.
My other thoughts are that at this point in the development of Ashes, I think the team should do us the courtesy of finally clarifying which audience this game is for. If you want this to be a circle jerk for griefers who need to vent the misery in their life by making someone else miserable online, then more power to you, but I'd like to know so I can stop caring about the game. The team has yet to clarify to us how a random player can avoid being persecuted endlessly by a dedicated group of griefers with nothing better to do than convince someone to stop playing. I hope the team is aware those types exist...
I also think, the more enemies that are pulled, the stronger they should get, maybe not by just raw damage, but by possibly faster attacks, more outgoing CC and interrupts, to discourage pulling large groups all by yourself so we want to group together, socially (you know, in a multiplayer game, not a solo RPG right?)
These kind of effects could become more intense the further things are pulled away from their natural spawn also, instead of having them leash back like in most games. (further making someone want a group to do large pulls)
Having mechanics like this, make it possible for griefers to have their laughs and fun if they want to, while not enabling them, and having a tool to balance them by ramping up the CC effects if its too easy to pull off the grief tactics, and they still have to deal with the corruption anyway, not like they get anything from this except a laugh.
It allows power farmers to develop strategies and tactics to powerfarm if they want to, without making things overpowered and boring like in BDO where I just grab dozens of things at once to cleave them all down with no danger.
and you expect Intrepid to look into every npc training situation that happens every single day multiple times a day in every server and decide what is griefing or not and punish players in some situations but not others? oh dear god
Or maybe, depending on how you guys ultimately do pvp flagging, maybe pvp-flagged players just generate a certain percentage more threat up front from any creature they tag, so it takes a bit longer to pull those enemies off them? I guess this is almost the same concept as above. But either way, this again would have to be mitigated by being grouped or using intentional threat-generating abilities so it doesn't inadvertantly cause harm in non-grieifng type situations.
Training is a bitch-ass tactic but, by The Seven, it is effective!! It is a premeditated environmentally dependent strategy with limited applicability.
In the recent post by @Luthric about buttons and balance, Luthric spoke about how some players analyze and reflect on their own performance to overcome adverse situations, while others will complain that they were disadvantaged for whatever reason. The divide over this issue is clearly the same.
But its a valid tactic.
And a war dec and guild camp response level tactic if the recipient is in a bad mood. If someone's going to fight like a doggoblin, they can get buried like one.
What I think is more important than any of this though, is what training would mean for the corruption system. If this is a way for players to grief, be toxic or kill other players without reason while remaining safe from the corruption system, then I think that it absolutely should not exist in the game. In fact, it would seem completely counter-productive to the corruption system and all other systems that have taken time and effort to prevent griefing. If training mobs is an option, then it needs to fall under the same consequences as the corruption system. I know this could be a very difficult task and I'm not even sure if it is possible to differentiate in-game between when it is done on purpose or when it is an accident. But i don't think it makes any sense to design a work-around to the corruption system.
I never experienced that being called training, just very obvious griefing or trolling.
I also think calling this ‘training’ and not giving a video example or something of that sort has the potential to just confuse people that don’t know it by that name.
To me NPC training rather means something the afk leveling in BDO, which I btw don’t think is a good thing either. I don’t like afk “gameplay”.
consistent on topics like this one.
To me, topics like this the answer always will be 'it depends on how you design it'. I think monster training is doable and controllable in game design to have fun and won't be just a weapon for toxic players. It depends on how much energy you put into the world you are creating.
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- A mob is aggressive and it loses it's current target while being close to it's spawnpoint. Some spells allowed a mob to lose it's target (feign death, switch target, seal of mirage, etc... not important)
- A mob is in the same social group with the mob that someone is hitting, at which point it starts building up aggro towards the one hitting his friends.
In both of these scenarios you would be relatively safe if you just stop hitting the mob you were trying to kill and just stand idle for some time surviving on healing potions or spells until the trainer either dies from his own train or completely abandons the idea of training me.TLDR: I'm okay with training, as long as there's a counter-play to it, which allows you to avoid dying from the train and potentially punish the person that was trying to get you stomped by the train. Otherwise it's just grieving and a mechanic that only punishes the victim, doesn't have any downsides to it and imposes no risk on the person committing this act.
If understood that in various regions players have potential to train mobs on you or your team, then that is fine.
Was used as a great area clearer on and against us in L2 between player that were at war and those that wanted to take over an area for xp.
Also a great way for players to self regulate bots.
Allow training will also likely mean opportunity for powerlevelling... so that should also be part of the conversation.
The mob shouldn't switch aggro from the original aggressor without good reason.
While it is scummy, I see it as a part of living in a world like this. If it truly becomes a problem, sure mess with the aggro mechanics and combatants a bit. This seems like stuff that should be tested in alpha 2.
Realistically this won't really be possible to 100% prevent however I do think it should not be encouraged or facilitated. This is simply grieving unregulated by corruption as the mob dealt the killing blow not the player. However I think we need to discuss how that threat is transferred to the group.
1. Are players pulling mobs through another players AoEs?
It is what it is. If you see someone pulling extra adds, pro-tip don't attack them. Switch to single target mob focusing. This will definitely require more tab target options/abilities than we've seen so far however.
2. Are players pulling mobs till they drop aggro and the mob is relocking on another player?
This is bad design imo, if you pull a mob a given distance and drop aggro if no one remains within range who has attacked the mob it should reset and go home before targetting new players.
3. why is this player able to solo pull mobs so far without being sufficiently damaged to make such behaviour sufficiently hard to pull off. If you can pull 2-5 mobs into a party and it be a threat for them to burst down. The player pulling these mobs should be getting rushed down by those mobs and getting killed themselves. unless they are healing which should then raise them higher up the aggro table making the transfer of aggro even more difficult.
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You should be able to do it, it's a PvX game where you can interact with the world.
But it should not be free (risky for the one who do it) or easy to do.
Like, if a player pull a mob at another player, the mob should focus the player who hit him and not change easily his focus to hit someone who simply walk there.
Or, have damage reduction from mob if you are not in the fight.
The goal for me would be to make it actual strategy and not a tool to block random people from playing.
1) Mobs Should have long Leashes to prevent people from just running through dungeons.
2) Players shouldn't be able to Grief others while circumventing the flagging system.
3) There is no easy solution, Have Aoe's/Group Healing not aggro other's tagged mobs. Maybe the adds can have a higher than normal threat table to the person that aggros them (requiring tanks to taunt in their own party groups to cover group mistakes). Another thought, if the player that is "Training" dies the adds auto reset and run back to start. My final thought, have a system where Players from a different party automatically have a lower threat generation than players in the party that pulled the add.
It's a difficult question that I haven't seen answered in an MMORPG. I hope "Training" isn't in the game. If a solo player wants to clear a party of 5 out of a dungeon, he better get friends or be good enough to 1v5 imo.
It's a valid gameplay and scenario, heck, just watch walking dead or the lion king, it's full of it.
I never played a class that could utilize and I dont have an issue with it.
Long leash ftw, then slow walk for mobs, then return to original position.
You should ENCOURAGE actual pvp to contest resources, not MOB TRAINING. Tf?
But as far as my personal opinion about mob trains - don't care generally. Use common sense. This question has common sense solutions. Of course mob training should be possible to some extent, in some locations, with certain types of mobs.
But there should not be a person who rolls out of bed, gets on his comp for another glorious day in Verra, and proceeds to train mobs on people all day, while making a competitive income doing it. It should be a bit more difficult and situational than that.
And if someone does train mobs on someone else, the "vast majority" of players should have an option to kill that player without insane consequences. Make it happen. Make a good game. Stop waffling and trying to play both sides.
If your talking about Training from EverQuest where oh no you pulled 2 many mobs and need to zone out which as soon as you do releases every mob and they attack any player in the area, while it was an interesting mechanic it also wasn't fun, especially when the person didn't shout "TRAIN TO X" while they were running to the zone.
I think a better way to do something along these lines is have a long leash with a slow walk back to reset, combine this with migratory spawn and patrol locations and it doesn't feel like your going to pull and farm mobs that you know are going to spawn in a specific location, it feels like the mobs are alive, the nomadic minotaur people you've shown are actually moving between locations and their civilization feels real as opposed to all the other mmos that have static spawn locations. It feels like when they are "trained" to a new area they discovered it and may setup camp there because it's a good location in their eyes.
That being said I'm still opposed to trains in general.
Great idea
Yes if you want to make less money and have a more intense game with lots of long last memories
No if you want a profitable game that is bog-standard, forgettable, and short lived.
I'm not a game Developer so these types of questions shouldn't be asked to me.
My feed back if I was a developer is do not worry about emergent game play mechanics
If it happens just say its a bug, but leave a rare clever way for people to exploit it and a round about way to punish them.
For Example
If a mob leaves its spawn area have it not give XP or loot but force players to deal with mobs
If a mob is killed outside its leash have a respawn multiplier so players can choose to farm, clear, or make hoard traps.
Not sure if my feedback has any value, I am a bit cooked and people do not like my weird ideas, but success is not determined by an idea it is determined by the execution of many ideas without the fear to fail.
Lets make PVP... PVP and not PVP to PVEPVP someone. Hope I didn't P that up.
My Choices as a player with aggro:
1. Stay and fight to either win or die
2. Flee
3. Flee and get help from nearby players/groups
4. Log off (j/k)
My Choices as a player without the aggro:
1. Engage by healing or attacking enemy to help
2. Attack player and risk death from player or enemy
3. Remain neutral
4. If passing aggro is allowed... Alt + F4
DONT FORCE me to engage and remove my choice!!
If a player brings a mob to another player/group, and if the other player/group decides to engage in healing of the player or enter combat with the enemy, then yes that player/group should now be included in the threat table of that enemy.
If a player decides to assist the enemy instead, this should also put the player into the threat table as a deterrent to attacking vulnerable players.
In other words if I have aggro from the enemy and decide to run that enemy to another player/group cause I'm looking for help and they oblige me by engaging, then yes the other player/group is now in the threat table of the enemy.
If I bring an enemy over to another player/group and they do NOT engage, then NO they are not added to the threat table and thus should not be attacked by the enemy.
What are the implications to the corruption system if it were allowed to pass the aggro on without any action from the other player/group? This would become a loop hole or way to circumvent this system. I can't even guess at this point what other impacts this may have.
Edit: First.. players would simply use this as a way to abuse the system and is just not fun. Second, if you think about how many times in an MMO, that this is done simply by mistake or proximity to other players questing or combating near you, this would just become super annoying how many times someone accidently brings me aggro and I now have to deal with it. MAYBE this could spur some grouping up and social aspects of gameplay, but honestly I think it would just get to be a nightmare after the first day.
What do you do for a world boss where you are fighting/competing for the kill? How about the threat mechanic being what drives who gets "rights" to combat the boss. For 2 minutes groups can fight each other and hit the boss (boss and players are immune during this time from damage from each other, but threat can build) and whoever gains the most threat on the threat table is awarded the chance to kill the boss. Causing tanks to compete with each other indirectly in the open world and the boss essentially being "taunted" during this time period as it takes no action until the timer is up and the right to kill is awarded. An invisible bubble goes up pushing the other group out and only allowing the group awarded the kill in until they wipe or take the boss down. This is a bit unrelated to the core question, but a thought that just popped into my head that's kinda along these lines.
If we say: "No, stop this from happening!", and then you implement something worse in an attempt to stop it, then there'd be another outcry and you'd just have to end up reversing it all again, which would be a waste of development time.
What potential solutions did you have in mind?
In AoC you have the corruption system, a system that in essence prevents griefing and gives penalties to those players that kill indiscrimantly. when you add training to this mixture, people will find ways to circumvent the coruption system, and let the mobs do the killing for them. What is worse, by training, you only impose the negatives. If a noncombatant tries to kill the Trainer, that trainer might still be a noncombatant, thus by defending, they will gain corruption, instead of becomming a combatant. And if they don't defend themselves, and get killed, they incur the greater noncombatant death penalty.
Therefor i believe it will be detrimental and should not be in AoC
All you have to do is run into a neutral-ish mob crowd. You may pull simply by proximity, take a few hits, but then the hostile player's aoe/cleave/splash damage will do the aggro job and pull mobs from you onto them. In other words, NPCs will be angrier at your opponent for accidental damage than at you for standing too close.