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Dev Discussion #48 - Training (PvP)

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Comments

  • WeGboredWeGbored Member, Alpha Two
    However they do implement training, I very seriously doubt there will be a way to circumvent the corruption system by doing so.

    In fact to go a step further, if you aggro some elite NPCs for example on accident, and while trying to drop aggro you come across another player and the NPCs end up killing the other person, and then eventually, you.

    Does the initiator get some corruption when the second player dies? Then possibly lose it if they die themselves?

    Corruption could be used as a huge detriment to prevent griefing in general.

    I don't share the same worries as a lot of the opinions here, I feel like they've got a very good plan for this and are just looking to see what people think.
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  • novercalisnovercalis Member, Founder, Kickstarter, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    DarkTides wrote: »
    novercalis wrote: »
    DarkTides wrote: »
    1999 Everquest had a No rules PVP diety teams server. 3 hardcoded teams. Suffice to say, it didnt go well.

    EQ, in general, has zonelines with loading screens where, on this no rules server, throngs of mobs would be pulled in an attempt to wipe an opposing raid force/small group, via the throng of mobs, or force them to "zone over" with low HP where they then get picked off by the raid force waiting on the other side.... once dead from that method, the other raid would now try to reach the open world raid target before the raid they just trained can train them back.... this would go on and on and on for hours. Very boring.

    Definitely didnt enjoy this aspect of the game. Zero pvp skill required on a server meant for player vs player combat...not player vs player train....

    Pvp would always devolve to the lowest, most dishonorable form of combat and would become the only way to proceed. It essentially prevents intended pvp gameplay and players eventually quit out of frustration.

    Unsure of the best approach that can be taken to try to keep things as they were meant to be....

    I loved that aspect and the main selling point for me in AoC - having to contest raid bosses via PvP by almost any means. That is fair strat, hard to pull.
    Even in Vanilla WoW, open world bosses were contentious af and training elite mobs as well with FD.

    The DPS race only is meh, if we decide to only stack wizards, and let your guild tanks focus on tanking. Also how AoC is doing tagging - the first tag gets a bonus leads on the DPS race. So we gotta fight you in other ways to ensure a raid kill.

    Hour longs fights are awesome, it's a battle of attrition - can you stay logged in for 1-2-3-4-5 hours and secure the kill or do you got school/work/kid/wife aggro? GG WP.

    I consider using NPCs in this manner as the dishonorable sissy weaklings approach. Id rather actual PVP occur. It was too easy to pull trains off with certain classes, and if that wasnt the case it probably wouldnt have happened as often as it did.

    DPS race is meh, yeah. Its PvP though, so youll be nuking the players on the other team...

    Long fights isnt a problem. Nothing but npc trains for hours does seem like youre not playing the game. Not much of an accomplishment.

    Please... Gamers has no honor.. noone fights or gives a shit for a fair 1v1, 5v5 or any of that nonsense. All is fair in war. Either use it before they do or secure the areas for it not to be used against you.
    {UPK} United Player Killer - All your loot belongs to us.
  • novercalisnovercalis Member, Founder, Kickstarter, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Neurath wrote: »
    Yeah, there were requests for Anti AoE Farming mechanics and there are requests for trains from the same people. I do not understand how these people need to train when those people don't want AoE farming to be possible.

    you can have long leash and still prevent aoe farming.

    Give the NPC multiple skills. Some will stop and use range attacks, no longer being part of the pact. Others can close the gap on you. AOE spells are channel spells that can easily be interupt and eat away mana. So you need to know what can you pull safely to aoe farm and not get interrupted and have enough mana to kill the pack and the remaining 1-2 stragglers.. if not GG. your dead.
    {UPK} United Player Killer - All your loot belongs to us.
  • novercalisnovercalis Member, Founder, Kickstarter, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Sexy_Fufu wrote: »
    Imo, encouraging training mobs on other players is not a good thing to do.
    It's not healthy whatsoever. I see no positive things from encouraging griefing behavior, but a lot of negative ones instead.

    Also, like other people said, training mobs on other players with the objective to kill 'em, will avoid the corruption system. It'll be a shame to have a big flaw to the game that would make the corruption system useless.

    Imagine a high lvl player with good gear -player A, traveling and encountering another player that just gathered a rare/legendary material -player B, under their eyes.

    Player A gave no importance to the gathering and crafting systems, they just grinded and also, focused on pvp content, like caravans.

    On the other hand, player B haven't grinded much, but instead, they focused on gathering most of their time.

    Now, there are 2 situations, one in which training is not encouraged and the other situation, when training is encouraged. What will happen in both situations?

    1. When training is not encouraged
    Player A will have to pk player B, if they want to loot the rare/legendary material for themselves.
    For that, they will gain corruption, as the gatherer most likely won't be willing to pvp with the high lvl and well equipped player.

    In this case, the corruption system works as intended. The corrupted player will risk harsh penalties in case they will be killed while being corrupted and bounty hunters will hunt him.

    That's the risk vs reward relationship, while the corruption system does it's job, as intended.

    2. When training is encouraged

    Player A won't have to pk player B any longer. There's a second option available for 'em, a better option: the option to train mobs on the chosen player, with the objective to kill 'em. They will gather some mobs, use a skill like "feign death" near their target (if the game will encourage this behavior, most likely there will be such skills available to 'em) and the mobs will kill player B.

    Doing that, player A didn't dirty their hands pk'ing player B. Instead, he used the mobs to do the kill, while they collected the reward from the victim's ashes.

    Player A bypassed the corruption system and also, gained the reward without any risk whatsoever.

    Player B, who had faith in the solid corruption system that Intrepid provided, suddenly realised that the corruption system is not working as intended and they will lose valuable materials, while the opponent won't risk getting corrupted and losing their gear. All the time player B spent on focusing on gathering will become useless, as player A, who had no interest whatsoever on it, would use an underhanded and shameless method to take their fruit of labor, just like that. Player B did the work to get an amazing item, while player A forced their way without any consequences. There's the chance that player B will be dissappointed with this unfairness being a thing, so they will end up quitting the game.

    Everyone who will have a bit of knowledge and will play a bit, will use this method to kill green players, as many times as it is possible to do so, without gaining any corruption whatsoever.

    The corruption system will become irrelevant and will only punish the players who haven't played much and won't know about this big game flaw.

    In conclusion, encouraging training on people, will create a serious flaw to the game, as both the corruption system will become irrelevant most of the time and also, the risk vs reward relationship that Intrepid promoted, will go out of the window as well, as only 1 of the 2 sides involved will lose their items, while the other side won't have any corruption on 'em and won't risk losing their gear for the decision they made.

    Players who will favor gathering will become victims, as they will lose their precious items, while the aggressor will lose nothing at all.

    And what about the bounty hunters? If everyone starts to train mobs on people and there will hardly be corrupted players around, this will become a useless system as well.

    That's why, in my opinion, encouraging training is a bad idea, as it offers only negative things.

    Like @Trenker and other players, I support what @Friss said on page 1.

    Let's pretend PVP isnt the issue. Griefing isnt the issue... how do you handle Leashing? cause Leashing is what makes training possible or not.

    Do we opt for short leash that everyone can avoid and run to the boss?

    Do we opt for leashing that turns the NPC 100% invulnerability and ignores all players in the dungeon as it walks back to its spawn, before being allow to get tagged?

    How much immersion breaking do we allow?

    Or do we keep the long leash and avoid training, so then a group of 8 will dedicate 1 kiter to get all the trash mobs out, while the other 7 kill the boss??

    Training into players for pvp is a by product of leashing mechanics unfortunately.
    {UPK} United Player Killer - All your loot belongs to us.
  • SongcallerSongcaller Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    novercalis wrote: »
    Neurath wrote: »
    Yeah, there were requests for Anti AoE Farming mechanics and there are requests for trains from the same people. I do not understand how these people need to train when those people don't want AoE farming to be possible.

    you can have long leash and still prevent aoe farming.

    Give the NPC multiple skills. Some will stop and use range attacks, no longer being part of the pact. Others can close the gap on you. AOE spells are channel spells that can easily be interupt and eat away mana. So you need to know what can you pull safely to aoe farm and not get interrupted and have enough mana to kill the pack and the remaining 1-2 stragglers.. if not GG. your dead.

    I don't think long leash or aoe farm reduction mechanics are required. The same principles apply to short leashes. The ai/mobs need to be less static, more dynamic and an actual threat.
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  • CozmoCozminskyCozmoCozminsky Member
    I see it as a question about "theme park vs open world mmo"

    If you are gathering wood near a spawn of a mob that you know might kill you, it's up to you to be aware of your surroundings.

    If you are afk somewhere outside of city walls, you have to be aware of that someone can PK/pull a mob onto you.

    If you are farming mobs and someone feeds you to an elite, it also your fault, its not supposed to play like an old school metin or "mu" where you just stand in one place and put something heavy on your mouse's left button to farm afk.
  • Arya_YesheArya_Yeshe Member
    edited February 2023
    I don't understand why they call it "training" in PvP, I've always considered it either "having fun" or trolling. It only becomes griefing when there are no options for the other players to counter it and they end up dying repeatedly.

    Personally, I enjoy the creativity involved in this style of play. If someone is monopolizing resources and mobs in an area, sometimes training can be the only way to level the playing field.

    In addition, it can also be a strategic move to redirect a mob's aggression towards someone else in an emergency situation. Such move can be also used for saving others.

    To those who complain about this playstyle, I say that griefing only occurs when there are no counters available. Don't let others discourage you from finding creative ways to play the game.


    "It is only griefing when there are no counters"

    The devs should print this mantra and pin it on a board, don't let carebears and whinners kill creativity and joy.
    PvE means: A handful of coins and a bag of boredom.
  • novercalisnovercalis Member, Founder, Kickstarter, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    I would assume the term originated from EQ. Since mobs can aggro other mobs unto you, so people running from the deepest dungeon would end up picking more mobs as they run out of the zone. Thus bringing a train of mobs with them to the front.

    Also Conga Line Train - When you got 30-40 NPC chasing you down.

    /shout INCOMING TRAIN TO THE FRONT - CHOOO CHOO. EITHER HIDE OR RUN OUT IF YOU DONT WANT TO DIE! CHOOO CHOOO

    was my go to spam shout when I hear a train or started one :)
    {UPK} United Player Killer - All your loot belongs to us.
  • GurgamelGurgamel Member
    Yes, but... I mean deathparad is a thing one group runs with monsters in their heels then all should run. If they run them past you shame on them and settle that hower you wish (verbaly or by combat).

    I want to be able help running players and take monsters of their back.

    But in face of griefing make it hard to steal aggro if your not in same party. For exampel a healer should not get any aggro for healing teammates by monster attacking a different player that is in proximity. Healing the player that has aggro yes. Also by givving the first player in sight of a mob extra aggro by a deafult more then one aoe attack it will be hard to suprise aggro another players mob. Also if the mob gets to keep hitting the first player it should be more likley to want to keep hitting him (tunnel vision), incase griefer keeps standing with mob in your aoes. But for instance that one party member starts focusing the griefers mob then aggro should switch, bad focusing on what is what.
  • Arya_YesheArya_Yeshe Member
    edited February 2023
    I previously proposed a concept that was positively received by the community as a solution to the issue of players bringing a large group of enemies and other issues. The concept, which I called "gated dungeons," can be found on the following forum thread:

    https://forums.ashesofcreation.com/discussion/54431/gated-dungeons-a-new-concept

    In a gated dungeon if you pull every mob you will eventually have to deal with them yourself.
    PvE means: A handful of coins and a bag of boredom.
  • SongcallerSongcaller Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Arya_Yeshe wrote: »
    In a gated dungeon if you pull every mob you will eventually have to deal with them yourself.

    But that means all the people who want to avoid corruption and real pvp won't like trains any more lol.
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  • Arya_YesheArya_Yeshe Member
    @Neurath Although I enjoy gathering a large group of enemies and using them to defeat other players, I acknowledge that this is not the best way to play the game. I only engage in this behavior because the game developers have allowed it.

    I am hopeful that Intrepid Studios will introduce more innovative systems, such as the one I have proposed, to encourage more strategic and enjoyable gameplay.
    PvE means: A handful of coins and a bag of boredom.
  • SongcallerSongcaller Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    I understand. I was happy go lucky before the stream and I'm happy go lucky after the stream. I do love a good train but I also prefer to fight outnumbered vs players. I'd rather have a trail of players than a train of mobs.
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  • maouwmaouw Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    For me, I just don't like how a mob "resets" when it reaches the end of its leash.

    I'd prefer if mobs stayed alert at the edge of their territory until the player exits a secondary leash distance from the mob so there's a buffer zone between the edge of a mob's leash and the moment that aggro drops - focing players to truly back off if they need to reset the mob.
    I wish I were deep and tragic
  • ZericZeric Member, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    My opinion is that player made problems should have player made solutions.
  • SongcallerSongcaller Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Zeric wrote: »
    My opinion is that player made problems should have player made solutions.

    Pvp over pve then?
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  • Arya_YesheArya_Yeshe Member
    edited February 2023
    I can't stress enough how much I dislike systems where mobs simply run after players based on distance or time, and give up chasing players too easily. It would be great if an MMO could have NPCs that behave like those in F.E.A.R. (2005), calling for reinforcements, retreating, flanking, changing strategies, and so on.

    What could be feasible for an MMO in this regard?
    • Mobs calling for reinforcements, including those with crowd control abilities.
    • Mobs regrouping with another group after retreating.
    • Mobs interacting with the environment, such as closing gates, climbing trees, hiding, digging holes and comming from the ground a distance away from the player.

    If a player aggroes a large number of mobs and fails to engage in combat, the mobs should retaliate and eliminate the player.



    PvE means: A handful of coins and a bag of boredom.
  • SongcallerSongcaller Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    edited February 2023
    I'm a tad torn on the concept. it means certain death either way. Imagine accidentally pulling a ton of mobs, trying to disengage and then being nuked just as fast as if you fought the mobs.

    Edit: I love the fear concepts though and agree.
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  • ZericZeric Member, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Neurath wrote: »
    Pvp over pve then?

    What?
  • SongcallerSongcaller Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    player verses player is a player problem solved by a player. PvE is a dev creation verses a player.
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  • ZericZeric Member, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Neurath wrote: »
    player verses player is a player problem solved by a player. PvE is a dev creation verses a player.
    I have no idea how your comment relates to my statement. Are you just restating my comment in your own words as a means to clarify your understanding of what I have said?
  • SongcallerSongcaller Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    I asked if you meant pvp or pve with your statement. Thus, clarification was sought but I'm a mad hatter and can go in loops for a while lol.
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  • ZericZeric Member, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Neurath wrote: »
    I asked if you meant pvp or pve with your statement. Thus, clarification was sought but I'm a mad hatter and can go in loops for a while lol.

    both?...assuming i understand your question
  • SongcallerSongcaller Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Yeah, I realised I probably should have said train rather than pve but we got there in the end. Thanks, I'm off to watch the football. All the best.
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  • Arya_YesheArya_Yeshe Member
    Neurath wrote: »
    I'm a tad torn on the concept. it means certain death either way. Imagine accidentally pulling a ton of mobs, trying to disengage and then being nuked just as fast as if you fought the mobs.

    Edit: I love the fear concepts though and agree.

    I consider engaging with such systems should be as strategic as playing chess. Understanding the environment and its inhabitants is like having soft power, and it's more fascinating than simply grinding mobs with no fear of consequences, plus for sure you can counter most of the situations.
    PvE means: A handful of coins and a bag of boredom.
  • SongcallerSongcaller Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Yeah I agree fully. I've said before the combat is too static. I'm all for the challenge but the systems aren't at maximum yet. Not sure if I want the ability to solo or the requirement to group. Personal challenges I hope for either way. I'm for pvp rather than trains though.
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  • Arya_YesheArya_Yeshe Member
    edited February 2023
    I used "training" for killing multiple people in multiple games because the PvE experience is flat in pretty much all games.

    You pull the mob through proximity or damage or pull skill, then the mob will wake up and run towards you in a straigh line.

    This mob's pattern of engagement is from the 80s!!!
    I don't even feel guilty when I kill people by using this technique, it is literally the dev's fault by not putting anything else on the table and people's fault for dying to this for decades.
    PvE means: A handful of coins and a bag of boredom.
  • SongcallerSongcaller Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    I've only used trains in pve servers. I haven't really done trains on pvp servers. I just love to kill others but I guess it borders on griefing lol.
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  • Arya_YesheArya_Yeshe Member
    edited February 2023
    Neurath wrote: »
    I've only used trains in pve servers. I haven't really done trains on pvp servers. I just love to kill others but I guess it borders on griefing lol.

    Training is an heroic act that underdogs, solo warriors and free creative spirits use to deal with the swarms of bot aspirant players who mindlessly grind mobs.

    It is pretty much a public service and not griefing at all, I would use other game mechanics if game devs were actually doing their jobs in providing new systems.
    PvE means: A handful of coins and a bag of boredom.
  • Arya_YesheArya_Yeshe Member
    edited February 2023
    I think Steven Sharif should assign an intern to document my remarks and compile them into a book.
    PvE means: A handful of coins and a bag of boredom.
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