Let's talk About Crossbows and Potion Throwers

Galvyr

So, I am confused. Will there be crossbows and potion throwers in Ashes? During the live stream, it was implied that we would have them in the game. But, recently I heard that they won't be in the game. Weren't they in Apoc? Weren't there purchasable skins? Weren't they a stretch goal and if so isn't Intrepid obligated to put them in the game? Help clear this up for me, because I am trying to figure it out.

George_Black

Sure let's talk about them.

Will there be any other owpvp, non-faction PvP, non 2 week max lv/raid treadmil, non daily fomo, non p2w mmos out there, but with potion launchers and crossbows?

unknownsystemerror

Read your TOS. Intrepid can change anything and everything they like at any moment for any reason. Steven gave his clarification a few hours ago. Crossbows are out. Those that purchased skins from the APOC store can contact Customer Support and they will be given X amount of Embers in compensation. Enjoy.

"You may obtain certain Game Assets through gameplay or through using virtual items. Some Game Assets you obtain may have expiration dates, and they will no longer appear in your Intrepid Account upon the expiration date. You acknowledge and agree that Intrepid may change, modify, “nerf,” delete, remove or otherwise alter the appearance, function, use and/or properties of any Game Assets at any time, in its sole discretion."
https://ashesofcreation.com/terms-and-conditions

Songcaller

To clarify, potion launchers are for Navies. RIP Crossbow.

Hinotori

Neurath wrote: »

To clarify, potion launchers are for Navies. RIP Crossbow.

It died before it lived.

Rest in pastrami.

Songcaller

Natasha wrote: »

Rest in pastrami.

Ashes of Crossbow

Liniker

I'm happy with this change

Barab

Why were crossbows removed? Disappointing as crossbows are traditionally Dwarven range weapons of choice.

Songcaller

Technically Crossbows were never added. All that has changed is the apoc skins can't be used in the MMO.

Mag7spy

They will add more weapons n the future if game is successful. Pretty much they just saying no to potential scope creep.

Songcaller

Hakuna matata - no worries

Galvyr

Thanks for the information everyone. My perspective is at the end of the day, it’s not a dealbreaker. But I feel like the game should have crossbows. It gives the Ranger some diversity of weapon choice and from a lore standpoint, it doesn’t make a ton of sense for them to no longer exist. That’s just, like, my opinion, man. I’m interested in yours.

Songcaller

Well, I feel crossbow couldn't be added because the weapon had the longbow power and speed of shortbow so who would bother with the bows in such a circumstances?

Galvyr

It doesn’t even have to have stark mechanical differences. A light crossbow and a heavy crossbow can function the same as a shortbow and longbow, respectively. It’s just a diversity of weapon appearances.

Songcaller

Yes, I understand. The same happened to the bow after apoc. However, the point still stands. The problem has occurred because all the apoc weapons were added to the wiki and it was assumed those were the mmo weapons. All of the weapons could fire very long distances in apoc. I'm not sure whether Crossbow would have less range than a Bow if it was implemented which is was not. Crossbow was a stretch goal and stretch goals are often the first to be removed. Bow was never a stretch goal to my knowledge. In an alternate universe we might have crossbows instead of bows but in this one we have bows for now. An expansion might see crossbows return but for now the skins are only worth embers.

Noaani

Neurath wrote: »

Well, I feel crossbow couldn't be added because the weapon had the longbow power and speed of shortbow so who would bother with the bows in such a circumstances?

Crossbow rate of fire should be determined by strength (which is actually kind of accurate).

All of a sudden it turns crossbows in to a ranged weapon that requires two stats instead of one.
Makes it easy to balance as something that isnt just a different looking bow.

Songcaller

Bow is more strength. The beauty of the crossbow is any peasant can be trained to use them - much like guns. If we talk Genoese Crossbowmen then yeah, strength is required for the pavis but I do not think you want to discuss military history lol.

I do agree, variable rate of fire would be excellent - something of a trained art. I also loved the idea of the Light Crossbow and Heavier Crossbow. I feel the scope is there but the scope isn't wanted by Steven and the devs right now.

Noaani

Neurath wrote: »

I feel the scope is there but the scope isn't wanted by Steven and the devs right now.

For sure.

I'm personally perfectly happy with them dropping crossbows for now. I'd want and expect to see them at some point, but the games scope has been creeping a bit over the last few years.

I mean, look at node reputation. It wasn't a thing at all - until suddenly it was. Now, in order to make the system the way they are talking about, it is going to need almost as much balancing and tuning as the combat system. Either that, or it will be a horrible system that ruins the game, or a nonsense system that people just ignore.

So yeah, if they drop a few random things for now to save developer time, that's all good.

Songcaller

Yeah, I feel Steven listens and tries to give us everything possible. I like the node reputation because it means corruption can be protected as punishment. Little need for a corruption path when you can just live with negative reputation - though corruption probably also gives negative reputation.

I don't think the devs are scared of balancing and optimisation. I remember how hard the devs worked to solve the rubber banding in A1. I feel the devs are excellent but I believe we also can't have everything.

daveywavey

Barrab wrote: »

Disappointing as crossbows are traditionally Dwarven range weapons of choice.

Really? Traditionally, the dwarfs in the nordic sagas didn't really use ranged weapons much at all, from what I've read of them.

Noaani

daveywavey wrote: »

Barrab wrote: »

Disappointing as crossbows are traditionally Dwarven range weapons of choice.

Really? Traditionally, the dwarfs in the nordic sagas didn't really use ranged weapons much at all, from what I've read of them.

Yeah, but "tradition" started with Tolkien.

Oh wait... he didn't mention crossbows either.

Barab

You want to go full nerd ? I can go full nerd.

Elves were the first race to develop and master the use of bows according to Tolkien's own work.

Tolkien's work only briefly mentions crossbows and only in reference to the Númenor using them as bird hunting weapons.

Middle-earth Role Playing (MERP) established crossbows as used most commonly by the Dwarves, who are implied to be their original inventors.

Farin, Dwarvern Champion of Erebor, Personal guard to King Under the Mountain Daiin Ironfoot, wielded a crossbow.

Beyond Tolkien's introduction of the fantasy races to public discourse, TSR in early player handbooks stated that Dwarves favored crossbows because the ballistic trajectory of the quarrel is flatter than that of the bow propelled arrow and thus more suitable for indoor (underground) use. Dwarfs in the earliest and best AD&D editions couldn't even use long bows. Beyond this point unlike bows, crossbows can be readied for prolonged periods with a very quick release. You can also move fairly easily with a loaded crossbow. These two characteristics make crossbows ideal weapons indoors/underground where traditionally Dwarves fight.

Then you have Games Workshop's contribution, which in my opinion had/has more influence than either the Tolkien world or TSR's Dungeon and Dragons, in the development of the Dwarf fantasy race. Games Workshop had entire units of Dwarf Quarrelers, may Grimnir bless their bolts, taking the field of battle.

So when I say we are "disappointed as crossbows are traditionally Dwarven range weapons of choice" not only am I correct but the fantasy ethnos of crossbow use as a preferred range weapon of the Dwarfs supports our disappointment as well.

We are not going to die on this hill though. If Intrepid Studios doesnt have the resources nor the will to included them in Ashes of Creation's release then so be it.

Learning about it casually in a stream causing some drama and uncertainty due to skins being purchased from APOC followed by an official random discord message seemed a little odd.

But it is what it is. We will fight you with whatever weapons are within our reach in the world of Verra.

Galvyr

Well said, Barrab.

daveywavey

Barrab wrote: »

We will fight you with whatever weapons are within our reach in the world of Verra.

Lucky for us your stubby little dwarf legs can't reach many......

Freemeta

crossbow launcher is the only weapon with this engeener feels and smartclass weapon of choice.

(there is no moderator on this forum?).

Songcaller

Freemeta wrote: »

(there is no moderator on this forum?).

The crossbow removal has had no effect on the mods. The mods still use cloaks and daggers lol.

TyranthraxusEQ

Just gonna throw this out there, and maybe it's stupid in a game with nukers, but could the crossbow be presenting a balance issue in PvP? It would have to be slower loading and heavier hitting than a bow to make sense, (for balance, not getting into the historical longbow vs crossbow debate). And a heavy crossbow would have to be a devastating single shot, tantamount to hitting an incoming melee with a gun before you swap to swords. They may not want this extra item to balance in. Spells can be resisted, cast times can be tweeked, heavy crossbow, pull a trigger, boom, gun.

Songcaller

I can't imagine the difficulty of augmented crossbow shots on top of two bows either.

Galvyr

What I don't understand is why the crossbow has to have gameplay ramifications. My background is WoW and in that game (Retail, not Classic); bows, crossbows, and guns are only different from an aesthetic perspective and not a gameplay perspective. I just think it's unfair for the Ranger to only have two weapon options for ranged: both being bows. Meanwhile the lion’s share of classes get a plethora of options.

Songcaller

There are a few ranged weapons. Most are magical. I'm not certain if all of the magical ranged weapons will be implemented right now.

To clarify, I have faith but I'm not certain lol.

Solvryn

TyranthraxusEQ wrote: »

Just gonna throw this out there, and maybe it's stupid in a game with nukers, but could the crossbow be presenting a balance issue in PvP? It would have to be slower loading and heavier hitting than a bow to make sense, (for balance, not getting into the historical longbow vs crossbow debate). And a heavy crossbow would have to be a devastating single shot, tantamount to hitting an incoming melee with a gun before you swap to swords. They may not want this extra item to balance in. Spells can be resisted, cast times can be tweeked, heavy crossbow, pull a trigger, boom, gun.

They'd have to make shortbows a skirmishing weapon, longbows medium ranged weapon, and crossbows a sniping weapon.