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Resurrection in combat
NiKr
Member
What's your opinion on the title's mechanic, both in terms of a healer ability and as a theoretical item that you could use to res someone in combat. In the next dev q&a thread I'm gonna be asking whether we'll have an item that lets us resurrect other players, but before that I wanted to see what was the general opinion on this particular interaction of resurrection.
I would personally prefer if we did have such an item and that we could res in combat. This would help with any potential player attacks during your pve and would also make pvp itself longer, which imo is fun
It could be argued that this would trivialize pve, but we've yet to see how difficult the general pve will be. And for any instanced truly difficult stuff we could just have a block on any res, if that's what Intrepid wants.
But yeah, what's your opinion on resurrection during combat?
I would personally prefer if we did have such an item and that we could res in combat. This would help with any potential player attacks during your pve and would also make pvp itself longer, which imo is fun
It could be argued that this would trivialize pve, but we've yet to see how difficult the general pve will be. And for any instanced truly difficult stuff we could just have a block on any res, if that's what Intrepid wants.
But yeah, what's your opinion on resurrection during combat?
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To me, from a PvE perspective, it is something that should be possible but not easy. It should be something you can consider doing if you have one or two people in a full raid die, but as soon as you get to about 3 or 4 people killed, you at the very least need to consider who to resurrect first, if at all.
As for items to resurrect, I am all for some classes being able to summon such items in to the inventory of others in their group or raid (no more than 1 per character), but that are only usable outside of combat. The main use for this is to bring a group back from a partial wipe, when that partial wipe includes the healer.
The above is basically how it was in EQ2 (though every healer in that game could resurrect in combat), and so works just fine with difficult PvE content.
It would, however, make easy PvE even easier. So if Ashes ends up going for easy PvE content (WoW difficulty or easier), then it is probably not the best idea.
In wow it was a druid only ability, then at some point blizz gave it to the DK, then if I recall correctly they gave it to one or two other classes. My main was a druid, and the slow loss of class identity, and making all classes interchangeable, was one of the top 2 or 3 things that caused me to stop playing wow. We need each archetype to have special, powerful abilities that make them unique and a necessity, things that define the archetype. Brez is a great example.
And I definitely think brez should be one use per encounter. Again, it is a very powerful ability. You should be able to use it once to save your raid if you lose a key part member, but it should not be used as a substitute to people staying alive. If you're losing multiple party members multiple times, that should be a wipe with a scolding by the raid leader as you run back to your corpse
Having the cast take 30 seconds and taking 50% of the healers health all the while the huge manipulation of Essence pulling mobs towards the source of all that power seems like an appropriate frame for a resurrection spell. And of course there should be a big cooldown. With that, rez in 8 player groups would be very rare but viable for raids and across groups, opening up some interesting dynamics in the open world.
The ability to resurrect a fallen team-mate in combat can turn the tide of a battle. A "one death and you're out" sounds kinda lame.
I am not against Bards getting a battle rez ability as well actually, perhaps with a longer cooldown. It has to make sense with the rest of their skillset, however, and we're still in the dark on that.
Resing is powerful but there should be other types of powerful skills as well with other classes and not a bargain sale for every cleric class to be able to do it.
Outside of that response, I guess I'm in, like, the super minority when it comes to this mechanic. Didn't really think I would be but it is what it is. I only now checked whether this topic has been brought up in the past (shoulda fucking done this before posting) and the general consensus of that thread was "have the rez but with a ton of limitations". So pretty much what we've got in this thread as well. At least I got a few new people to respond to the question, so I guess it's just a bit more feedback for Intrepid.
I am suggesting that the quickness of casting the rez and the power (% of life returned) and even the number of available resurrections could all depend on:
- the secondary archetype of the cleric, with cleric/cleric the best
- the religion of the cleric, with differences between religions
- the level of the cleric
- the religious offices held by the cleric
- the level of shrine present in the cleric's home node
- possibly the magical enhancements on the cleric's weapon or other gear
- other possible factors
Good thread, thanks for posting it @NiKr
Id rather have classes skills with class skills then making it messing and having other factors besides class and gear. You shouldn't to get anything to do with religion to make your class kit preform better for cleric. That sounds convoluted for no reason on one class.
Only way to balance that out is by making every unique class have buffs to their skills or make them work different, and honestly that just seems like bloat for the sake of bloat.
Now this doesn't mean getting region up can't have its own perfects that benefit you that are not class dependent.
Your HP, MP, and Accuracy are all set to 25% of normal for some time period after being Raised.
Die again while in that state and it gets worse.
With the idea being that if your team can manage without you for that period of time, you just get to rejoin the situation.
I could definitely get behind the idea of repeated death reducing your stats even lower, cause that's how L2 worked as well.
Sure, but this is my point.
Did you 'ask the question assuming the L2 one'?
Did you intend to ask assuming none? How long does the L2 one last? Is it something that happens even if you respawn at a respawn point?
We already know Resurrection was a Cleric Skill before and might be retained.
This is a really broad topic, so for me at least it was hard to answer the binary 'do you want it or not' without considering all that. It doesn't help that I've literally never thought about it outside of the FFXI one because most games I play don't have a meaningful equivalent. BDO basically just sells you the items and Guild Wars 2 as I remember it was... interesting? Weird? I guess not really, given the game's pacing.
I know that I don't like easy Rez, I know that without some form of penalty after it, certain behaviours that I don't like are encouraged. I also know that if you add a stronger penalty (FFXI tier) you can allow more methods for it ('Reraise' status effect, allows the player to Auto-Revive without anyone else interacting with them, but still applies Weakened) without it being terribly overpowered.
I'll have to think about how I feel about other characters being able to explicitly target and Raise fallen comrades with items in Ashes, but I didn't experience anything I considered a flaw in the way Reraise is handled in FF, nor do I particularly mind the Guild Wars/The Division systems even in MMOs if you add some Weakened/Death Penalty.
So based on those two things I wanted to see what the Ashes community leaned towards. And it's obvious that clan rez would definitely not be a thing and combat rez would be really limited. And with Intrepid's tendency to listen to feedback I imagine that they'll have something close to what people described here.
Obviously you immediately thought about the detailed design of the overall mechanic and any potential consequence of the action itself, but I think that in this case the general feedback would kinda drive the detailed design rather than the other way around.
If everyone wanted a quick battle rez or even a mass one, Intrepid would then think of ways how to balance it correctly. But considering that everyone already wants a super limited one, Intrepid can go much smaller in their design scale for these interactions. Well, at least I see no real point in overly punishing people for getting a rez if that rez can only happen once a 30min period or smth like that. Maybe I'm wrong in that assumption though.
Good news then, since it was already shown in previous iterations.
It needs to be on a long cool down, so you have to make a choice about when to use it.
Also, it needs to be expensive. Long cast times, a lot of resources etc.
FFXIV even gives you the option to cast it instantly by spending a cooldown, however that cooldown is on a very long timer and it has far better uses so you don't want to spend it on res. If you wind up having to, it's a sign that things may not be going well. It amounts to a very expensive "from the brink" ability that give the party a last ditch chance at salvaging the situation.
It can't be something that can be freely used IMO.
I believe it to be an important gameplay tool for players when properly balanced, with probably some more limitations/restrictions than the ones we know from L2 taking in consideration my current understanding of Ashes combat with the limited info we have.
Lets look at Ashes A1 Resurrection and L2 resurrection.
usable in combat?
L2: Yes
Ashes: Yes
Mans costs?
L2: 191
Ashes: 250
Cast times?
L2: 6 sec(way faster cuz cast speed stats).
Ashes: ~5 sec(not sure how fast ashes' cast speed stat will make it).
Cooldowns?
L2: 30sec(way smaller CD cuz CD reduction buffs and old version cast speed influencing CD reduction).
Ashes: I forgot
Resurrects with HP and Mana?
L2: Amount Depends on version.
Ashes: 25%-75% health and 15%-25% mana.
Recovers Lost Exp?
L2: 0%-70%(+extra % depending on user's WIT Stat).
Ashes: nope?
Death Penalty debuff?
L2 Yeah but instantly removable by a consumable item.
Ashes: Not in A1 but probably in A2?
The question becomes, will A2 resurrection remain the same or change?
As for combat Resurrection items, i think they can certainly have a place in Ashes, just more expensive and with more restrictions than the ones present in L2.
Aren't we all sinners?
I don't know if AoC is going to have a classic "in-combat" flag, where mob aggro locks you into combat, or what the in-combat rules are going to be for PvP. So the above is for in or out of combat rez.
On the flip side, we don't want rez spam as it was in ESO. So a modest cooldown on rez is probably needed. 3 min or so.
Rezzes during raid bosses should be limited in some way, but we don't really have any raid mechanics details. Dungeons seem to have respawn sites that allow you to run back to the boss fight, as long as trash is still clear.
IMO all that is needed for this is a resurrect item.
Make it something clerics can summon in to a group members inventory, that only works on clerics, and has a 10 second or longer cast time.
I dunno, I've been a non-Healer role before and spent my last few moments resurrecting the Healer while taking damage, knowing that we had a better chance of survival with the Healer alive. It's a situational decision you can make depending on what's happening at the time. If all your Healers are down, then it's worth you taking the hit to get them resurrected even if it means that you die yourself.
In other words, a priest can resurrect other players while in combat, however it's a channeled skill that can be interrupted and the resurrected player cannot be resurrected again for X minutes.
The important thing is that resurrection while either caster or target are in combat should have some sort of penalty, given the fact that it can be very impactful.
Resurrection outside of combat should have less penalties.
The penalty and impact is that you're generally rooted and can't move, and you're not able to use your other skills and abilities while you're doing it. So, it's a loss to the team of you not being able to participate during that time.