If someone is willing to spend additional $15 just to drag a whole another game window with them in case they somewhere somewhen need a rez - I'm sure they'd just level up a cleric and be done with it. Scroll doesn't influence this decision at all.
If someone is willing to spend additional $15 just to drag a whole another game window with them in case they somewhere somewhen need a rez - I'm sure they'd just level up a cleric and be done with it. Scroll doesn't influence this decision at all.
have you done a 9 v 9 in l2 where the other party has a pp box ressing their healers or alts outside the party using res on the party members in the middle of the fight?
I think a person casting a resurrection ability, should need to do so, out of combat. I also believe any form of mass res should have a hefty timer such as 7-10 minutes. Puts more pressure on people staying alive, especially for pvp... instead of.. healer sorry I died! Can you quickly pop me back up again!
have you done a 9 v 9 in l2 where the other party has a pp box ressing their healers or alts outside the party using res on the party members in the middle of the fight?
that's what I'm trying to avoid here.
I've mainly only played on private servers so this was a f2p action. If the same was done during the subbed times of L2 - I'd be fine with it, cause, again, that person/party spend additional $15 just to rez themselves.
Also, as I've said in the OP - I love longer pvp and I want not only combat rez, but also scrolls that let anyone rez anyone. That PP that rezzed the party? Just a +1 to my pvp counter. And if it waited till the party unflagged - that means my party has won completely, so now we can wait till they rez up and win against them again I love that shit and want that in the game.
bruh you can literally lose a won pvp because the other party keeps dressing + noble with alts. you keep killing them and they keep pressing and slowly grinding you to death. you only have 2 dresses while they have 10. happens all the time unless, of course, you are strong enough to steamroll them, but if you are kinda close in gear or skills, its not fair they win simply because of dual boxes. it invalidates your effort in gearing up and your coordination as a party. its literally p2w. i wasn't talking about a res somewhere..I'm talking about resing in the middle of a PVP...
regarding res scrolls. its similar since you could use them on a box, or res your healer after failing to protect him. then the game becomes a fight of who has more res scrolls.
I'm fine with res scrolls if they cant be used during combat or while your party is in combat, or on people who were previously in combat recently (to avoid leaving the party with your healer, getting dressed, then re joining the party. or maybe don't let people leave the party while their members are in combat)
Then, just as I said, that's just +1 to my pvp counter. If they're rezzing flagged people - they're flagged. If they're just alts - they have shit gear. All I need to do is hit them once or twice and they're dead.
Also, alttabbing to your second window will take time. Even if it's just a second or two, that's quite a long time during a fight. And cast of a rez should be long enough for you to react to it in pvp and be ready to immediately drop the rezzed char. We called that "nevalyashka" in L2. You'd keep killing the rezzed char until he stayed dead for good. And that was usually in the case of blessed rezzes from normal players, not alts. Alt healers would just get one-shot on sight as soon as they flagged up.
And depending on when we get the flag, the rezzing char might even die before they manage to rez their target.
Also, again, if my opponent was more ready than me (that is, they brought alts or some other tools) - they deserve to win the fight. I'm not gonna make it easy for them, but if they come out on top because they were more prepared - good for them. And if they used several alts to "p2w" the fight, to me that just means that they had more skill, because they managed to control more characters per player than we did but they still won.
I dont mind incombat rezzing however with some caviats
1 - Either have long cooldown like WoW battle rezzes
or 2 - long cast time (10seconds or so) and when ressurected you are in a weaken state for like 5 minutes say half dmg output maybe less HP aswell
If someone is willing to spend additional $15 just to drag a whole another game window with them in case they somewhere somewhen need a rez - I'm sure they'd just level up a cleric and be done with it. Scroll doesn't influence this decision at all.
have you done a 9 v 9 in l2 where the other party has a pp box ressing their healers or alts outside the party using res on the party members in the middle of the fight?
that's what I'm trying to avoid here.
I mean, they could always just have a 10th person doing that...
That said, I am massively in favor of only being able to resurrect people in your party - be that group or raid - regardless of whether in or out of combat.
That said, I am massively in favor of only being able to resurrect people in your party - be that group or raid - regardless of whether in or out of combat.
Being able to just target rez allows healers to sell their services around hardcore pve, or just even helping out fellow nodemates when needed.
I get why you'd want it to be limited and I might even agree, just because it covers a ton of potential abuses/exploits, but I've been that "savior" a ton of times and it always felt good to help someone out.
Alternatively the rez items (if we get any) could be really expensive, but could target anyone, so it'd be either a direct trade or a negative one for both sides (cause I'd prefer if even just respawning reduced the XP debt a bit, while item rez did nothing of the sort).
Rezzing a purple corpse turns you purple. PvP problem solved. Could be a bit of a griefing risk I guess.
While rez spam is a risk, I don't think that the rez target should get a cooldown. IMO the cooldown should be on the caster. Maybe death-induced combat penalty can stack for the person getting rezzed
That said, I am massively in favor of only being able to resurrect people in your party - be that group or raid - regardless of whether in or out of combat.
Being able to just target rez allows healers to sell their services around hardcore pve, or just even helping out fellow nodemates when needed.
My thoughts on this are that this shouldn't be possible. A wipe should be a wipe, and the respawn location and travel back is a part of that penalty.
I would still leave it open for people play that "savior" role via healing others to prevent the death in the first place, as opposed to undoing that death.
My thoughts on this are that this shouldn't be possible. A wipe should be a wipe, and the respawn location and travel back is a part of that penalty.
I would still leave it open for people play that "savior" role via healing others to prevent the death in the first place, as opposed to undoing that death.
But that's just in the context of party/raid play, not solo randoms. I was talking about a healer just walking around minding their own business and then seeing a dead player asking for a rez.
We don't know how well the respawn locations will be placed, so there's a chance that you'd have to run for 5-10 minutes till you can get back to your original spot. And while I'm all about hardcoreness and gameplay hardship, this is one of the only things I agree with Asmon on. Running back for too long is bad design.
Imo this can be balanced in 2 ways. You either let people rez each other (especially with items), or you give players great respawn points. If we have great respawns, I guess free target rez could be forgone to avoid other exploits, but if Intrepid go super hardcore on their respawns - I think there should be a way to help people out if they messed up.
L2's main respawn method was "To Town", which was a meme on the scale of dark soul's "you died" (within the community of course). L2 also had TPs to dungeon entrances, so at least half your distance was already covered. But if you died deeep within a dungeon, it would often more beneficial and timesaving to just shout for a rez rather than run all the way back from the entrance. And with some dungeons that run back could potentially take around an hour, because you'd need to get through a ton of mobs on your way back.
Then, just as I said, that's just +1 to my pvp counter. If they're rezzing flagged people - they're flagged. If they're just alts - they have shit gear. All I need to do is hit them once or twice and they're dead.
Also, alttabbing to your second window will take time. Even if it's just a second or two, that's quite a long time during a fight. And cast of a rez should be long enough for you to react to it in pvp and be ready to immediately drop the rezzed char. We called that "nevalyashka" in L2. You'd keep killing the rezzed char until he stayed dead for good. And that was usually in the case of blessed rezzes from normal players, not alts. Alt healers would just get one-shot on sight as soon as they flagged up.
And depending on when we get the flag, the rezzing char might even die before they manage to rez their target.
Also, again, if my opponent was more ready than me (that is, they brought alts or some other tools) - they deserve to win the fight. I'm not gonna make it easy for them, but if they come out on top because they were more prepared - good for them. And if they used several alts to "p2w" the fight, to me that just means that they had more skill, because they managed to control more characters per player than we did but they still won.
they might necessarily have shit gear. after all, once you gear up your main, you will gear up your alt. also, you are assuming that can beat their main with most of your health...what if at the end of the fight you only have 10% hp left? also, they could simply res their box with their main, then if you kill their main again, they res with their box.
also remember that ttk is going o be 30 secs or so?
if you can steamroll people, that's a different story. but when you are fighting someone who is around your level in terms of gear, skills, etc, they simply win by having those extra dresses..and that's p2w
If someone is willing to spend additional $15 just to drag a whole another game window with them in case they somewhere somewhen need a rez - I'm sure they'd just level up a cleric and be done with it. Scroll doesn't influence this decision at all.
have you done a 9 v 9 in l2 where the other party has a pp box ressing their healers or alts outside the party using res on the party members in the middle of the fight?
that's what I'm trying to avoid here.
I mean, they could always just have a 10th person doing that...
That said, I am massively in favor of only being able to resurrect people in your party - be that group or raid - regardless of whether in or out of combat.
If there is another player nearby who is a friend or a guildie and rez you, that's different. that's an actual person playing. its like saying oh you are 50 and we are 30, that's why you won, blah blah..i mean go recruit more people . I'm talking about how dual boxes are p2w in pvp.
If someone is willing to spend additional $15 just to drag a whole another game window with them in case they somewhere somewhen need a rez - I'm sure they'd just level up a cleric and be done with it. Scroll doesn't influence this decision at all.
have you done a 9 v 9 in l2 where the other party has a pp box ressing their healers or alts outside the party using res on the party members in the middle of the fight?
that's what I'm trying to avoid here.
I mean, they could always just have a 10th person doing that...
That said, I am massively in favor of only being able to resurrect people in your party - be that group or raid - regardless of whether in or out of combat.
If there is another player nearby who is a friend or a guildie and rez you, that's different. that's an actual person playing. its like saying oh you are 50 and we are 30, that's why you won, blah blah..i mean go recruit more people . I'm talking about how dual boxes are p2w in pvp.
In PvE aswell, Alt accounts advantage is real and Alt accounts advantage in a subscription based game is p2w in my eyes even tho it take more effort to manage both, but sadly, effectively dealing with multibox without harming houses where multiple people play the game with their own accounts is hella complicated to deal with, and yeah this topic was already addressed by Steven in the past.
As for the Rez Alt potential, the rez itself even from the dedicated high/max level party healer requires limitations and restrictions beyond the ones we are used to in Lineage 2, things like death penalty(non-removable but has a duration), longer cast time/cooldown, gold cost(for a consumable item for the rez) and etc.
My thoughts on this are that this shouldn't be possible. A wipe should be a wipe, and the respawn location and travel back is a part of that penalty.
I would still leave it open for people play that "savior" role via healing others to prevent the death in the first place, as opposed to undoing that death.
But that's just in the context of party/raid play, not solo randoms. I was talking about a healer just walking around minding their own business and then seeing a dead player asking for a rez.
While solo, a death is a wipe.
I wouldnt expect to see town respawning in Ashes - it would be used as a method of fast travel. Since travel is supposed to be a real thing in Ashes, Intrepid have no option other than to have many respawn locations.
If someone is willing to spend additional $15 just to drag a whole another game window with them in case they somewhere somewhen need a rez - I'm sure they'd just level up a cleric and be done with it. Scroll doesn't influence this decision at all.
have you done a 9 v 9 in l2 where the other party has a pp box ressing their healers or alts outside the party using res on the party members in the middle of the fight?
that's what I'm trying to avoid here.
I mean, they could always just have a 10th person doing that...
That said, I am massively in favor of only being able to resurrect people in your party - be that group or raid - regardless of whether in or out of combat.
If there is another player nearby who is a friend or a guildie and rez you, that's different. that's an actual person playing. its like saying oh you are 50 and we are 30, that's why you won, blah blah..i mean go recruit more people . I'm talking about how dual boxes are p2w in pvp.
they might necessarily have shit gear. after all, once you gear up your main, you will gear up your alt. also, you are assuming that can beat their main with most of your health...what if at the end of the fight you only have 10% hp left? also, they could simply res their box with their main, then if you kill their main again, they res with their box.
also remember that ttk is going o be 30 secs or so?
if you can steamroll people, that's a different story. but when you are fighting someone who is around your level in terms of gear, skills, etc, they simply win by having those extra dresses..and that's p2w
Are we talking solo pvp or party? Cause if I'm the only one left with 10% hp, while the enemy has a rez bot - my party has already lost. Though you said previously that you're talking about rezzing right after someone dies, so I don't think I'd be at 10%, cause my healer would be working.
Either way, this whole comment is countered by "rez cast time is 10s". Yes, ttk is supposed to be 30s, but I'd assume that it's not an 8v1 ttk. My party just needs to all assist a kill and the rez char will die way faster than the default time.
Also, Intrepid have already said that they plan to have non-100% hp rez for the game, so the ttk would already be shorter (maybe even halved). Also also, a 9th-10th person won't have the same buffs as a main party member would and they wouldn't have healers supporting them, so even if they're fully geared it's still super easy to kill them compared to any other main party member.
In other words, while I get that alt accs might be seen as p2w, it's a very very weak p2w imo. It also requires way more work from the person who's doing it to execute the "p2wness" correctly. So like I said before, I'm willing to be completely fine with this particular instance of p2w, because it would mean that my opponent has worked (and paid) twice as much as me, while not really benefiting twice as much.
they might necessarily have shit gear. after all, once you gear up your main, you will gear up your alt. also, you are assuming that can beat their main with most of your health...what if at the end of the fight you only have 10% hp left? also, they could simply res their box with their main, then if you kill their main again, they res with their box.
also remember that ttk is going o be 30 secs or so?
if you can steamroll people, that's a different story. but when you are fighting someone who is around your level in terms of gear, skills, etc, they simply win by having those extra dresses..and that's p2w
Are we talking solo pvp or party? Cause if I'm the only one left with 10% hp, while the enemy has a rez bot - my party has already lost. Though you said previously that you're talking about rezzing right after someone dies, so I don't think I'd be at 10%, cause my healer would be working.
Either way, this whole comment is countered by "rez cast time is 10s". Yes, ttk is supposed to be 30s, but I'd assume that it's not an 8v1 ttk. My party just needs to all assist a kill and the rez char will die way faster than the default time.
Also, Intrepid have already said that they plan to have non-100% hp rez for the game, so the ttk would already be shorter (maybe even halved). Also also, a 9th-10th person won't have the same buffs as a main party member would and they would have healers supporting them, so even if they're fully geared it's still super easy to kill them compared to any other main party member.
In other words, while I get that alt accs might be seen as p2w, it's a very very weak p2w imo. It also requires way more work from the person who's doing it to execute the "p2wness" correctly. So like I said before, I'm willing to be completely fine with this particular instance of p2w, because it would mean that my opponent has worked (and paid) twice as much as me, while not really benefiting twice as much.
it matters a lot when you are just slightly better than your opponents. if you are steamrolling them, it doesn't matter...but if you are just 10% - 20% better, those alts matter a lot.
it matters a lot when you are just slightly better than your opponents. if you are steamrolling them, it doesn't matter...but if you are just 10% - 20% better, those alts matter a lot.
The steamrollers would usually be the ones hardcore enough to even try getting rez alts. And that would be exactly why they're the steamrollers. Not just because they p2w, but because they work harder than anyone else.
If I start a group pvp with my 8 players/chars against their 9+ players/chars - I'm already at a disadvantage, even if their 9th is not a healer. And if their alt is even semi-well-geared - the enemy is already higher in power, because they're higher in investment. Just as Noaani said, that group might've as well had an extra player helping them out, so in case of the alt it would just be standing there until it's needed, so it's even worse.
I think this disagreement comes from me mainly playing on private servers where bless rez scrolls were way more abundant, so I'm suuuuper used to the whole party just constantly rezzing each other, so most of the time they didn't even need an off-party healer. So while the gameplay itself was easier on those servers, the pvp had additional difficulty and required you to put out 120% of your power if you wanted to beat someone.
But I see that neither of us will convince the other one, so I guess this is where I'll stop.
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I would think it should be easy to limit in combat resurrections to players in the group or raid only.
Also the act of having to use resources and time in order to rez party members is a cost. Don't lose sight of the fact that if a battle was so difficult one of your players died, having to have the healer spend time and resources to rez them is likely going to be very difficult for the group to overcome.
Don't understand the issues with combat res. We had res in A1 in pvp and pve and it didn't break the game.
That wasn't a content test.
It makes no difference if it was a content test or not. The fact remains we had it in A1.
It makes a giant difference as far as balance is involved and how all the other classes work together. You can have anything in a game doesn't mean it is designed for it.
There is no real balance in a A1 as it isn't a content test, expect things to be changed, taken out, restricted, added especially when you are talking about resurrecting people.
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having an alt for res is also a concern T_T
have you done a 9 v 9 in l2 where the other party has a pp box ressing their healers or alts outside the party using res on the party members in the middle of the fight?
that's what I'm trying to avoid here.
Also, as I've said in the OP - I love longer pvp and I want not only combat rez, but also scrolls that let anyone rez anyone. That PP that rezzed the party? Just a +1 to my pvp counter. And if it waited till the party unflagged - that means my party has won completely, so now we can wait till they rez up and win against them again
regarding res scrolls. its similar since you could use them on a box, or res your healer after failing to protect him. then the game becomes a fight of who has more res scrolls.
I'm fine with res scrolls if they cant be used during combat or while your party is in combat, or on people who were previously in combat recently (to avoid leaving the party with your healer, getting dressed, then re joining the party. or maybe don't let people leave the party while their members are in combat)
Also, alttabbing to your second window will take time. Even if it's just a second or two, that's quite a long time during a fight. And cast of a rez should be long enough for you to react to it in pvp and be ready to immediately drop the rezzed char. We called that "nevalyashka" in L2. You'd keep killing the rezzed char until he stayed dead for good. And that was usually in the case of blessed rezzes from normal players, not alts. Alt healers would just get one-shot on sight as soon as they flagged up.
And depending on when we get the flag, the rezzing char might even die before they manage to rez their target.
Also, again, if my opponent was more ready than me (that is, they brought alts or some other tools) - they deserve to win the fight. I'm not gonna make it easy for them, but if they come out on top because they were more prepared - good for them. And if they used several alts to "p2w" the fight, to me that just means that they had more skill, because they managed to control more characters per player than we did but they still won.
That wasn't a content test.
1 - Either have long cooldown like WoW battle rezzes
or 2 - long cast time (10seconds or so) and when ressurected you are in a weaken state for like 5 minutes say half dmg output maybe less HP aswell
I mean, they could always just have a 10th person doing that...
That said, I am massively in favor of only being able to resurrect people in your party - be that group or raid - regardless of whether in or out of combat.
I get why you'd want it to be limited and I might even agree, just because it covers a ton of potential abuses/exploits, but I've been that "savior" a ton of times and it always felt good to help someone out.
Alternatively the rez items (if we get any) could be really expensive, but could target anyone, so it'd be either a direct trade or a negative one for both sides (cause I'd prefer if even just respawning reduced the XP debt a bit, while item rez did nothing of the sort).
While rez spam is a risk, I don't think that the rez target should get a cooldown. IMO the cooldown should be on the caster. Maybe death-induced combat penalty can stack for the person getting rezzed
I would still leave it open for people play that "savior" role via healing others to prevent the death in the first place, as opposed to undoing that death.
We don't know how well the respawn locations will be placed, so there's a chance that you'd have to run for 5-10 minutes till you can get back to your original spot. And while I'm all about hardcoreness and gameplay hardship, this is one of the only things I agree with Asmon on. Running back for too long is bad design.
Imo this can be balanced in 2 ways. You either let people rez each other (especially with items), or you give players great respawn points. If we have great respawns, I guess free target rez could be forgone to avoid other exploits, but if Intrepid go super hardcore on their respawns - I think there should be a way to help people out if they messed up.
L2's main respawn method was "To Town", which was a meme on the scale of dark soul's "you died" (within the community of course). L2 also had TPs to dungeon entrances, so at least half your distance was already covered. But if you died deeep within a dungeon, it would often more beneficial and timesaving to just shout for a rez rather than run all the way back from the entrance. And with some dungeons that run back could potentially take around an hour, because you'd need to get through a ton of mobs on your way back.
It makes no difference if it was a content test or not. The fact remains we had it in A1.
they might necessarily have shit gear. after all, once you gear up your main, you will gear up your alt. also, you are assuming that can beat their main with most of your health...what if at the end of the fight you only have 10% hp left? also, they could simply res their box with their main, then if you kill their main again, they res with their box.
also remember that ttk is going o be 30 secs or so?
if you can steamroll people, that's a different story. but when you are fighting someone who is around your level in terms of gear, skills, etc, they simply win by having those extra dresses..and that's p2w
If there is another player nearby who is a friend or a guildie and rez you, that's different. that's an actual person playing. its like saying oh you are 50 and we are 30, that's why you won, blah blah..i mean go recruit more people
In PvE aswell, Alt accounts advantage is real and Alt accounts advantage in a subscription based game is p2w in my eyes even tho it take more effort to manage both, but sadly, effectively dealing with multibox without harming houses where multiple people play the game with their own accounts is hella complicated to deal with, and yeah this topic was already addressed by Steven in the past.
As for the Rez Alt potential, the rez itself even from the dedicated high/max level party healer requires limitations and restrictions beyond the ones we are used to in Lineage 2, things like death penalty(non-removable but has a duration), longer cast time/cooldown, gold cost(for a consumable item for the rez) and etc.
Aren't we all sinners?
While solo, a death is a wipe.
I wouldnt expect to see town respawning in Ashes - it would be used as a method of fast travel. Since travel is supposed to be a real thing in Ashes, Intrepid have no option other than to have many respawn locations.
In an MMORPG, a person is an account.
If you have two accounts, you are two people.
Either way, this whole comment is countered by "rez cast time is 10s". Yes, ttk is supposed to be 30s, but I'd assume that it's not an 8v1 ttk. My party just needs to all assist a kill and the rez char will die way faster than the default time.
Also, Intrepid have already said that they plan to have non-100% hp rez for the game, so the ttk would already be shorter (maybe even halved). Also also, a 9th-10th person won't have the same buffs as a main party member would and they wouldn't have healers supporting them, so even if they're fully geared it's still super easy to kill them compared to any other main party member.
In other words, while I get that alt accs might be seen as p2w, it's a very very weak p2w imo. It also requires way more work from the person who's doing it to execute the "p2wness" correctly. So like I said before, I'm willing to be completely fine with this particular instance of p2w, because it would mean that my opponent has worked (and paid) twice as much as me, while not really benefiting twice as much.
it matters a lot when you are just slightly better than your opponents. if you are steamrolling them, it doesn't matter...but if you are just 10% - 20% better, those alts matter a lot.
If I start a group pvp with my 8 players/chars against their 9+ players/chars - I'm already at a disadvantage, even if their 9th is not a healer. And if their alt is even semi-well-geared - the enemy is already higher in power, because they're higher in investment. Just as Noaani said, that group might've as well had an extra player helping them out, so in case of the alt it would just be standing there until it's needed, so it's even worse.
I think this disagreement comes from me mainly playing on private servers where bless rez scrolls were way more abundant, so I'm suuuuper used to the whole party just constantly rezzing each other, so most of the time they didn't even need an off-party healer. So while the gameplay itself was easier on those servers, the pvp had additional difficulty and required you to put out 120% of your power if you wanted to beat someone.
But I see that neither of us will convince the other one, so I guess this is where I'll stop.
Also the act of having to use resources and time in order to rez party members is a cost. Don't lose sight of the fact that if a battle was so difficult one of your players died, having to have the healer spend time and resources to rez them is likely going to be very difficult for the group to overcome.
It makes a giant difference as far as balance is involved and how all the other classes work together. You can have anything in a game doesn't mean it is designed for it.
There is no real balance in a A1 as it isn't a content test, expect things to be changed, taken out, restricted, added especially when you are talking about resurrecting people.
It does make a difference.
It existed in A1 which means it is possible from a coding perspective (I dont think anyone is arguing this).
This thread is not about whether it is possible to code or not, it is about whether we think it should exist in the final game or not.
Intrepid have every right and reason to decide if a feature, system or mechanic makes it in to the final game or not, including those in A1.