Rng through stealth is shitter than basic rng by dice. You keep trying to turn ashes into other games and I'm only telling you about the current systems. Missing at any range is based on skill of the player not some arbitrary number plucked from someone's ass.
Random is boring. Combat random is extra boring. I don't see the percentages. I see an approximate number of attempts I have to perform to achieve a goal. So I'd have to repeat my rotation like 100 times until my stun procs... and my attack shouldn't miss... and it should be critical... and my dmg rng should be high enough to win. And if my opponent is luckier than me then I lost (and vice-versa). The value of winning is blurred in probabilities. The only thing player can do is to get better gear, repeat his plan 1000 more times and pray harder. Not skill, but luck. Not a tactic, but skirmish. This is just tedious.
Random is boring. Combat random is extra boring. I don't see the percentages. I see an approximate number of attempts I have to perform to achieve a goal. So I'd have to repeat my rotation like 100 times until my stun procs... and my attack shouldn't miss... and it should be critical... and my dmg rng should be high enough to win. And if my opponent is luckier than me then I lost (and vice-versa). The value of winning is blurred in probabilities. The only thing player can do is to get better gear, repeat his plan 1000 more times and pray harder. Not skill, but luck. Not a tactic, but skirmish. This is just tedious.
should we allow all stuns and cc to land with 100% chance? then whats the point of increasing a defensive stat? maybe reduce duration?
ok then all stuns land but they only last 0.5 seconds to make them balanced, then 2 more land and now you have immunity from diminishing returns. whats the point then? might as well just remove them and give me a dps ability.
too much rng feels bad, but also no rng feels bad in tab target
should we allow all stuns and cc to land with 100% chance? then whats the point of increasing a defensive stat? maybe reduce duration?
ok then all stuns land but they only last 0.5 seconds to make them balanced, then 2 more land and now you have immunity from diminishing returns. whats the point then? might as well just remove them and give me a dps ability.
too much rng feels bad, but also no rng feels bad in tab target
This comes down to people not knowing what they want except for only good things.
They want 100% chance to cc, plus 100% chance for that extra bonus dmg, with 100% evasion stat defensive bonus.
Even if it was full action based there should still be rng lmao. This is a mmorpg. Without rng / dice rolls those games are flat and boring. Everything becomes ultra repetitive
ie Attack 3 times and get guaranteed cc, use ability 4 times to apply poison, every 5 attacks crit
Can you imagine how op an evasion tank would be if rng miss was also added on top?
How would it be any more OP than a system that lets the tank to just mechanically dodge incoming attacks? If the boss' attacks are all action and can be dodged - the tank is already OP. If the boss' attacks are tab (or at least some are), then there can be no such thing as an evasion tank w/o an "accuracy vs evasion" stat comparison.
And in the case of pvp, you want to get hit, because that's a hit that didn't go towards your mate. And if you're getting hit - you'd hope to be able to dodge the attack through stats. Though, this assumes a forced target situation or a proper tracking of action moves, where a tank can stand in-between an action attacker and their target and get hit instead.
All good points and why evasion tanks are difficult to pull off. One won't know a tank is evasion until one attacks said tank. How would you know on the first move if it was rng or evasion if rng exists? You would need to use at least 2 moves to know.
How would you know on the first move if it was rng or evasion if rng exists? You would need to use at least 2 moves to know.
I think I'm misunderstanding smth or missing context. As I understand it the stat evasion IS the rng. Like, if you have 100 accuracy and the tank has 101 evasion - you'll still hit him a ton of times, but he'll be able to evade you quite a bit too. It's not like he'll start 100% evading anything that doesn't match his evasion in accuracy.
Is that a wrong assumption? Is that last sentence exactly how it works in some games?
I think everyone agrees that crits are RNG via stats. Most games have a very low base crit chance, then you can spec into a higher chance.
RNG block that halves the damage of an attack (but did not block secondary effects) would be a reasonable opposite of that. Assuming that you had to spec with skill points and stat points to get higher than a token block chance.
How would you know on the first move if it was rng or evasion if rng exists? You would need to use at least 2 moves to know.
I think I'm misunderstanding smth or missing context. As I understand it the stat evasion IS the rng. Like, if you have 100 accuracy and the tank has 101 evasion - you'll still hit him a ton of times, but he'll be able to evade you quite a bit too. It's not like he'll start 100% evading anything that doesn't match his evasion in accuracy.
Is that a wrong assumption? Is that last sentence exactly how it works in some games?
Lots of games are very bad.
But no, not most of them.
There's at least one though. Forgive me for not remembering its name. After all, who remembers the names of games like that?
How would you know on the first move if it was rng or evasion if rng exists? You would need to use at least 2 moves to know.
I think I'm misunderstanding smth or missing context. As I understand it the stat evasion IS the rng. Like, if you have 100 accuracy and the tank has 101 evasion - you'll still hit him a ton of times, but he'll be able to evade you quite a bit too. It's not like he'll start 100% evading anything that doesn't match his evasion in accuracy.
Is that a wrong assumption? Is that last sentence exactly how it works in some games?
Well, some evasion tanks have a dodge ability like 100% dodge for x seconds, I imagine Grit might augment to something like that. Otherwise it's a dice roll based on evasion vs dodge but rng miss is another dynamic on top based on output rng. Stat vs stat is input rng and so too is the active dodge ability. The devs did say they would use input rng.
rng miss is another dynamic on top based on output rng
As in, your attack just has a random chance to miss, no matter the stats of your target? If that's the case - that's the stupidest thing I've heard. I gueeeeess I could see it as a "critical fail" in a d&d setup or smth like that, where instead of even aiming at your target your character shoots the ground or the sky, but I just cannot see how that could be anywhere near usable in an mmo situation. The more you know, I guess.
rng miss is another dynamic on top based on output rng
As in, your attack just has a random chance to miss, no matter the stats of your target? If that's the case - that's the stupidest thing I've heard. I gueeeeess I could see it as a "critical fail" in a d&d setup or smth like that, where instead of even aiming at your target your character shoots the ground or the sky, but I just cannot see how that could be anywhere near usable in an mmo situation. The more you know, I guess.
This is a core of at least a few MMOs.
In FFXI your melee accuracy cap is 95%.
Because you can always Nat 1.
Sometimes these are unrelated though, which often sucks a lot. When they are not, it's not so bad because it allows this part of the system to 'absorb' a certain level of 'accuracy vs evasion gap'.
(in case anyone is unclear, I have no specific care about this system when within the right framework)
Just an additional for my other post in the thread
Alpha 2 WIP UI Character sheet has Accuracy % and Disable Chance % as stats listed on Magical stats tab.
Can you imagine how op an evasion tank would be if rng miss was also added on top?
My point was that if there is evasion added to the game, a guaranteed one is better than an rng one so instead of having evasion stats some classes have abilities for evasion.
I dislike defensive RNG, I remember playing ESO fighting someone and they were able to "evade" all of my attacks just by keeping buffs up.
That kind of braindead gameplay has no business in a game that touts PvP, luckily Zenimax wizened up and didn't give players anymore evasion buffs and changed that.
Just an additional for my other post in the thread
Alpha 2 WIP UI Character sheet has Accuracy % and Disable Chance % as stats listed on Magical stats tab.
Can you imagine how op an evasion tank would be if rng miss was also added on top?
My point was that if there is evasion added to the game, a guaranteed one is better than an rng one so instead of having evasion stats some classes have abilities for evasion.
I dislike defensive RNG, I remember playing ESO fighting someone and they were able to "evade" all of my attacks just by keeping buffs up.
That kind of braindead gameplay has no business in a game that touts PvP, luckily Zenimax wizened up and didn't give players anymore evasion buffs and changed that.
If this kind of thing is done properly, chance to hit type mechanics are basically a gear check. If they have significantly better gear than you, you can't hit them.
This is kind of an important faucet of any game in which gear progression is to be considered important. In such games, the appropriate remedy to someone being able to evade all of your attacks is to get better gear.
Obviously, some games are made poorly, and adding buffs with stats that are supposed to be used as a designation of gear progression would suggest poor design to me.
IMO, passive evade should only ever be a function of gear and your class. The only buff that should ever impact it at all are buffs that function as a tanks stance.
Having short term buffs that guarantee an evade on the next hit or some such is not a bad design, but such abilities should have a cooldown of at least 20 seconds, and no class should have more than 1.
Can you imagine how op an evasion tank would be if rng miss was also added on top?
My point was that if there is evasion added to the game, a guaranteed one is better than an rng one so instead of having evasion stats some classes have abilities for evasion.
I dislike defensive RNG, I remember playing ESO fighting someone and they were able to "evade" all of my attacks just by keeping buffs up.
That kind of braindead gameplay has no business in a game that touts PvP, luckily Zenimax wizened up and didn't give players anymore evasion buffs and changed that.
If this kind of thing is done properly, chance to hit type mechanics are basically a gear check. If they have significantly better gear than you, you can't hit them.
This is kind of an important faucet of any game in which gear progression is to be considered important. In such games, the appropriate remedy to someone being able to evade all of your attacks is to get better gear.
Obviously, some games are made poorly, and adding buffs with stats that are supposed to be used as a designation of gear progression would suggest poor design to me.
IMO, passive evade should only ever be a function of gear and your class. The only buff that should ever impact it at all are buffs that function as a tanks stance.
Having short term buffs that guarantee an evade on the next hit or some such is not a bad design, but such abilities should have a cooldown of at least 20 seconds, and no class should have more than 1.
ESOs tertiary/waterfall stats to put it plainly suck. They just suck less then before.
Can you imagine how op an evasion tank would be if rng miss was also added on top?
My point was that if there is evasion added to the game, a guaranteed one is better than an rng one so instead of having evasion stats some classes have abilities for evasion.
I dislike defensive RNG, I remember playing ESO fighting someone and they were able to "evade" all of my attacks just by keeping buffs up.
That kind of braindead gameplay has no business in a game that touts PvP, luckily Zenimax wizened up and didn't give players anymore evasion buffs and changed that.
If this kind of thing is done properly, chance to hit type mechanics are basically a gear check. If they have significantly better gear than you, you can't hit them.
This is kind of an important faucet of any game in which gear progression is to be considered important. In such games, the appropriate remedy to someone being able to evade all of your attacks is to get better gear.
Obviously, some games are made poorly, and adding buffs with stats that are supposed to be used as a designation of gear progression would suggest poor design to me.
IMO, passive evade should only ever be a function of gear and your class. The only buff that should ever impact it at all are buffs that function as a tanks stance.
Having short term buffs that guarantee an evade on the next hit or some such is not a bad design, but such abilities should have a cooldown of at least 20 seconds, and no class should have more than 1.
ESOs tertiary/waterfall stats to put it plainly suck. They just suck less then before.
ESO gear policy from the ground up sucks.
That doesnt mean the same basic concept of evade and chance to hit cant be really good - it just isnt ever going to be in ESO.
Can you imagine how op an evasion tank would be if rng miss was also added on top?
My point was that if there is evasion added to the game, a guaranteed one is better than an rng one so instead of having evasion stats some classes have abilities for evasion.
I dislike defensive RNG, I remember playing ESO fighting someone and they were able to "evade" all of my attacks just by keeping buffs up.
That kind of braindead gameplay has no business in a game that touts PvP, luckily Zenimax wizened up and didn't give players anymore evasion buffs and changed that.
If this kind of thing is done properly, chance to hit type mechanics are basically a gear check. If they have significantly better gear than you, you can't hit them.
This is kind of an important faucet of any game in which gear progression is to be considered important. In such games, the appropriate remedy to someone being able to evade all of your attacks is to get better gear.
Obviously, some games are made poorly, and adding buffs with stats that are supposed to be used as a designation of gear progression would suggest poor design to me.
IMO, passive evade should only ever be a function of gear and your class. The only buff that should ever impact it at all are buffs that function as a tanks stance.
Having short term buffs that guarantee an evade on the next hit or some such is not a bad design, but such abilities should have a cooldown of at least 20 seconds, and no class should have more than 1.
ESOs tertiary/waterfall stats to put it plainly suck. They just suck less then before.
ESO gear policy from the ground up sucks.
That doesnt mean the same basic concept of evade and chance to hit cant be really good - it just isnt ever going to be in ESO.
When it comes to hit chance and evade, Ill always have my preference of aiming my shots, then the miss chance is on me and not a probability.
I like my combat in my hands, not the games in any fashion.
Overall, RNG absolutely belongs in RPG combat, including MMORPGs. Particularly for tab-targetting combat systems. One of the absolutely fundamental things about RPGs is that you are playing a character with skills and abilities that aren't yours (the player's) skills and abilities. Remove that aspect and I don't really think it qualifies as a real MMORPG anymore. RNG (within reason) is the best way to simulate this that I have seen.
On the flipside, if Intrepid was making an MMOFPS like Planetside 2, I would be against RNG elements in combat.
As with most things, the devil is in the details and how they implement RNG into Ashes combat. It's certainly possible to have way too much RNG, and it matters where they add it. I am cool with RNG crits, as I am sure most players are. I think RNG fails should be present as well, where the damage, CC or other effect is halved. Either due to the attacking character (not the player) failing or due to the defending character (not the player) evading or blocking. Character stats and skills have to matter, IMO, and not just in some flat numbers kind of way. I think it improves the game experience when we get some unpredictability and chaos due to RNG. It increases the skill ceiling for players to adapt to a series of bad luck RNG and still overcome the odds.
Regardless of where it lands in the spectrum of nuances, RNG is a relative staple in games designed like this. Now, not all RNG is equal, that is for sure. Considering the whole AC vs TT there is more acceptable allowances in my opinion depending on where the combat basics derive from.
Dmg is RNG within in a threshold based on various numerical core values just as critical strikes chance and damage allowances are. I am definitely not a fan of RNG block/evade chances though as I definitely prefer more of an AC. Your dodging and blocking chances relies on your skill over RNG. Simple yes, but relatively effective for core gameplay.
If going for more AC in regards to combat, visual queues can be quite important rather than just attacks occurring and RNG filling the void because there was no time available for reactions to take place. This is respectfully for both PvE and PvP per se.
Regardless of where it lands in the spectrum of nuances, RNG is a relative staple in games designed like this. Now, not all RNG is equal, that is for sure. Considering the whole AC vs TT there is more acceptable allowances in my opinion depending on where the combat basics derive from.
Dmg is RNG within in a threshold based on various numerical core values just as critical strikes chance and damage allowances are. I am definitely not a fan of RNG block/evade chances though as I definitely prefer more of an AC. Your dodging and blocking chances relies on your skill over RNG. Simple yes, but relatively effective for core gameplay.
If going for more AC in regards to combat, visual queues can be quite important rather than just attacks occurring and RNG filling the void because there was no time available for reactions to take place. This is respectfully for both PvE and PvP per se.
Aye.
Crits fine, because crit can be within a tightly controlled framework and you can account for it.
All mmorpgs have crit, but defensive stats can be always put on the chopping block when an active solution is more readily available.
Comments
ok then all stuns land but they only last 0.5 seconds to make them balanced, then 2 more land and now you have immunity from diminishing returns. whats the point then? might as well just remove them and give me a dps ability.
too much rng feels bad, but also no rng feels bad in tab target
Reduced duration with consequetive use
Or
Windows after cc where cc can't be used.
When I mention diminishing returns I mean the second one and I hope it will be the case.
This comes down to people not knowing what they want except for only good things.
They want 100% chance to cc, plus 100% chance for that extra bonus dmg, with 100% evasion stat defensive bonus.
Even if it was full action based there should still be rng lmao. This is a mmorpg. Without rng / dice rolls those games are flat and boring. Everything becomes ultra repetitive
ie Attack 3 times and get guaranteed cc, use ability 4 times to apply poison, every 5 attacks crit
This kind of stuff is stale
And in the case of pvp, you want to get hit, because that's a hit that didn't go towards your mate. And if you're getting hit - you'd hope to be able to dodge the attack through stats. Though, this assumes a forced target situation or a proper tracking of action moves, where a tank can stand in-between an action attacker and their target and get hit instead.
Is that a wrong assumption? Is that last sentence exactly how it works in some games?
RNG block that halves the damage of an attack (but did not block secondary effects) would be a reasonable opposite of that. Assuming that you had to spec with skill points and stat points to get higher than a token block chance.
Lots of games are very bad.
But no, not most of them.
There's at least one though. Forgive me for not remembering its name. After all, who remembers the names of games like that?
Well, some evasion tanks have a dodge ability like 100% dodge for x seconds, I imagine Grit might augment to something like that. Otherwise it's a dice roll based on evasion vs dodge but rng miss is another dynamic on top based on output rng. Stat vs stat is input rng and so too is the active dodge ability. The devs did say they would use input rng.
This is a core of at least a few MMOs.
In FFXI your melee accuracy cap is 95%.
Because you can always Nat 1.
Sometimes these are unrelated though, which often sucks a lot. When they are not, it's not so bad because it allows this part of the system to 'absorb' a certain level of 'accuracy vs evasion gap'.
(in case anyone is unclear, I have no specific care about this system when within the right framework)
Alpha 2 WIP UI Character sheet has Accuracy % and Disable Chance % as stats listed on Magical stats tab.
Aren't we all sinners?
I dislike defensive RNG, I remember playing ESO fighting someone and they were able to "evade" all of my attacks just by keeping buffs up.
That kind of braindead gameplay has no business in a game that touts PvP, luckily Zenimax wizened up and didn't give players anymore evasion buffs and changed that.
all the stats gets me excited
If this kind of thing is done properly, chance to hit type mechanics are basically a gear check. If they have significantly better gear than you, you can't hit them.
This is kind of an important faucet of any game in which gear progression is to be considered important. In such games, the appropriate remedy to someone being able to evade all of your attacks is to get better gear.
Obviously, some games are made poorly, and adding buffs with stats that are supposed to be used as a designation of gear progression would suggest poor design to me.
IMO, passive evade should only ever be a function of gear and your class. The only buff that should ever impact it at all are buffs that function as a tanks stance.
Having short term buffs that guarantee an evade on the next hit or some such is not a bad design, but such abilities should have a cooldown of at least 20 seconds, and no class should have more than 1.
ESOs tertiary/waterfall stats to put it plainly suck. They just suck less then before.
ESO gear policy from the ground up sucks.
That doesnt mean the same basic concept of evade and chance to hit cant be really good - it just isnt ever going to be in ESO.
When it comes to hit chance and evade, Ill always have my preference of aiming my shots, then the miss chance is on me and not a probability.
I like my combat in my hands, not the games in any fashion.
On the flipside, if Intrepid was making an MMOFPS like Planetside 2, I would be against RNG elements in combat.
As with most things, the devil is in the details and how they implement RNG into Ashes combat. It's certainly possible to have way too much RNG, and it matters where they add it. I am cool with RNG crits, as I am sure most players are. I think RNG fails should be present as well, where the damage, CC or other effect is halved. Either due to the attacking character (not the player) failing or due to the defending character (not the player) evading or blocking. Character stats and skills have to matter, IMO, and not just in some flat numbers kind of way. I think it improves the game experience when we get some unpredictability and chaos due to RNG. It increases the skill ceiling for players to adapt to a series of bad luck RNG and still overcome the odds.
Dmg is RNG within in a threshold based on various numerical core values just as critical strikes chance and damage allowances are. I am definitely not a fan of RNG block/evade chances though as I definitely prefer more of an AC. Your dodging and blocking chances relies on your skill over RNG. Simple yes, but relatively effective for core gameplay.
If going for more AC in regards to combat, visual queues can be quite important rather than just attacks occurring and RNG filling the void because there was no time available for reactions to take place. This is respectfully for both PvE and PvP per se.
Aye.
Crits fine, because crit can be within a tightly controlled framework and you can account for it.
All mmorpgs have crit, but defensive stats can be always put on the chopping block when an active solution is more readily available.