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AoC isn't as Niche as everyone thinks

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Comments

  • CROW3CROW3 Member, Alpha Two
    ZippyA wrote: »
    One thing to add - when somebody talks of a good MMO from the past, think of "commercially viable" in the context of longevity...

    Possibly and also no.

    No, in the sense that commercial viability doesn't necessarily have to be relevant when defining the market segments, where a product may be targeted and articulated as 'niche' or 'generic.' There are investment firms that fund product lines that enter the market for no other reason than to disrupt another product. These can be complete cost-centers, but their main strategic purpose isn't revenue capture.

    Possibly, because it largely depends on how you define 'commercial viability.' Are you capturing share? Are you chasing margin? Are you focused on revenues? There's a lot of wiggle there. It can also be completely irrelevant if Steven is sitting on a literal gold mine. If he can fund Intrepid privately in perpetuity, he can dedicate the organization to produce as niche a product as he desires regardless of the market landscape.

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  • ZippyAZippyA Member
    Depraved wrote: »
    imagine thinking lineage failed
    I didn't say LA failed. It was/is hugely successfull but inherent P2W bug kills its reincarnations pretty quickly.
  • DepravedDepraved Member, Alpha Two
    ZippyA wrote: »
    Depraved wrote: »
    imagine thinking lineage failed
    I didn't say LA failed. It was/is hugely successfull but inherent P2W bug kills its reincarnations pretty quickly.

    you did and no p2w didnt kill it. they made billions and games are still up and running. yeah maybe many people quit, but those were the people who werent paying...
  • ZippyAZippyA Member
    edited July 2023
    CROW3 wrote: »
    Possibly, because it largely depends on how you define 'commercial viability.' Are you capturing share? Are you chasing margin? Are you focused on revenues?
    Commercial viability in the context of longevity is measured quite simple - how long a game developer keeps the official servers open because playerbase is paying enough to cover the costs
  • LudulluLudullu Member, Alpha Two
    Fantmx wrote: »
    I got no clue how to work that page. And it doesn't seem to say anything about which ones are pvp and which ones are not. A list of servers tells me nothing and I ain't about to do the required work to figure out the status of several hundred servers :D
  • SolvrynSolvryn Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    ZippyA wrote: »
    Love the discussion.

    One thing to add - when somebody talks of a good MMO from the past, think of "commercially viable" in the context of longevity.

    UO - 25 years still commercially viable
    AC - 18 years, dead now with no commercial servers
    EvE - 20 years and still commercially viable
    Lineage - multiple reincarnations that die after 4-5 years, otherwise not commercially viable in long run.

    Think of what Intrepid might want to choose, and what you as a player would want to pay for.
    a) big success and swift death (like many modern inclusive MMORPGs "for all"), or
    b) moderate success "not for all" and 10+ years commercially viable on official servers

    I don’t think this contextually speaks to the reason why some games are dead. Turbine was a smaller company and Asherons Call was its first game and longest lasting.

    Asherons Call closed because the devs completed the story.

    As a game a face lift and some updates and it can easily surpass itself.

    The same goes for other titles, no one knows why they’re gone.
  • ZippyA wrote: »
    CROW3 wrote: »
    Possibly, because it largely depends on how you define 'commercial viability.' Are you capturing share? Are you chasing margin? Are you focused on revenues?
    Commercial viability in the context of longevity is measured quite simple - how long a game developer keeps the official servers open because playerbase is paying enough to cover the costs

    The old Official L2 servers even tho merged and with a far smaller populations still commercialy thrives after 20 years through the pure whales' will spending thousands of dolars a month according to NCsoft reports, same goes for Classic and Essence/Aden Official versions. They basically became gacha mobile games trying to mimic the success of their Giga Lucrative Mobile counterparts Lineage M, Lineage W and Lineage M2.
    6wtxguK.jpg
    Aren't we all sinners?
  • ZippyAZippyA Member
    edited July 2023

    Depraved wrote: »
    ZippyA wrote: »
    Depraved wrote: »
    imagine thinking lineage failed
    I didn't say LA failed. It was/is hugely successfull but inherent P2W bug kills its reincarnations pretty quickly.

    you did and no p2w didnt kill it. they made billions and games are still up and running. yeah maybe many people quit, but those were the people who werent paying...
    No, I didn't. Proof is the fact that I put LA in line with other veteran MMORPGs.
    As for my comment about LA - P2W is a different beast, project lifecycle works differently there. Reincarnations are not a failure of the old game, but a way to boost playerbase without risking cannibalization since players in old games are hooked by their P2W investments.
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    edited July 2023
    Solvryn wrote: »
    How would I know? I never played EvE, because I don’t care about it. ArcheAge has flopped and restarted countless times and I typically stay away from anything NC Soft touches.

    That doesn’t really change Ashes appeal to me as an oldschool player.
    Mmmmmn. I think this has really been you agreeing with me but writing as if you disagree.
    So... sure. We agree.
    Semantics.
  • FantmxFantmx Member, Phoenix Initiative, Royalty, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    I want to step back a minute to and point out that if you watch the early interviews, 2017, 2018, there is a lot of yes to most things asked. So early adopters do have a different initial view of what Ashes would become than the later adopters. I think people often forget that. That change over the years is part of what lends to the idea of Ashes being a niche game.

    And to be clear that is totally fine. Development changes. Minds change. This is Steven's game and he should make the game he believes in.

    And also I don't think of the words niche game as bad words. Plenty of niche games are successful.
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  • ZippyAZippyA Member
    EvE risk vs reward model, economy model and social aspect is something that worth looking at, by the way.
    I would personally love if AoC became an EvE in non-cosmic setting. There is Albion Online also but it is too cartoonish to my taste.
  • SolvrynSolvryn Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    edited July 2023
    Dygz wrote: »
    Solvryn wrote: »
    How would I know? I never played EvE, because I don’t care about it. ArcheAge has flopped and I’m
    Dygz wrote: »
    Solvryn wrote: »
    How would I know? I never played EvE, because I don’t care about it. ArcheAge has flopped and restarted countless times and I typically stay away from anything NC Soft touches.

    That doesn’t really change Ashes appeal to me as an oldschool player.
    Mmmmmn. I think this has really been you agreeing with me but writing as if you disagree.
    So... sure. We agree.
    Semantics.

    Could be, never really had an argument against your opinion.

    Just lotta people throw around words to devalue the opinions of others.
  • SpifSpif Member, Alpha Two
    DAoC ran strong for a long time, and is still getting new privately run public servers. But all the games that went free/private to play after a years of players and subs are really in "bonus time". It's not what any developer is shooting for.

    WoW PvP vs PvE server is a useless argument. Players on PvE servers have access to the game's pinnacle of PvP: Arenas and rated BGs. Random people ganking in the world is not a focus of the game even if some people enjoy it.

    I think travel time and even nodes evolving could be a deterrent for the casual player (ie, 10h or less per week). Spend half your play session finding a decent place to gather/level, spend the other half doing that. Then log in 3 days later to find out the area has changed. Spend more time traveling...yay. We'll see how fast the mounts are.
  • Solvryn wrote: »
    ZippyA wrote: »
    Love the discussion.

    One thing to add - when somebody talks of a good MMO from the past, think of "commercially viable" in the context of longevity.

    UO - 25 years still commercially viable
    AC - 18 years, dead now with no commercial servers
    EvE - 20 years and still commercially viable
    Lineage - multiple reincarnations that die after 4-5 years, otherwise not commercially viable in long run.

    Think of what Intrepid might want to choose, and what you as a player would want to pay for.
    a) big success and swift death (like many modern inclusive MMORPGs "for all"), or
    b) moderate success "not for all" and 10+ years commercially viable on official servers

    I don’t think this contextually speaks to the reason why some games are dead. Turbine was a smaller company and Asherons Call was its first game and longest lasting.

    Asherons Call closed because the devs completed the story.

    As a game a face lift and some updates and it can easily surpass itself.

    The same goes for other titles, no one knows why they’re gone.

    Like empires, they rise and fall.
  • Dygz wrote: »
    Solvryn wrote: »
    Oldschool is UO, Asherons Call, Shadowbane, and Dark Age of Camelot.

    Out of those games you listed I've only played AA which had the greatest contributions to naval content for the genre as far as I'm concerned. Are they niche? No. I'm the particular one, not the game.

    Ashes appeals to me as an oldschooler, it'll appeal more to me if they do the combat justice.
    UO doesn't really tell us much because it's peak was before EQ released as well as before the other MMORPGs that released after EQ. UO was basically the first MMORPG, so kind of the only option at it's peak.
    Of course, I refused to play UO.
    ShadowBane was sooo niche, it might as well have been vaporware. That is a failed MMORPG.

    How many years did AC and DAoC last before they were sunset?
    I have a feeling Steven hopes that Ashes will survive longer than those games, but...
    I don't know that they had numbers significantly higher than EvE or ArcheAge.
    Maybe you know?
    I think people stopped playing those games for a reason.

    Well I think all those games were selecting a Niche crowd at that time. MMO's and internet gameplay was still relatively new and a lot of games simply survived because it was a new experience. 20 years later, online gameplay seems like almost every new game, its no longer the new thing but the normal or expected thing. All the big games that everyone remembers were developed 20-25 years ago and that just made me feel old.

    I am mostly just highlighting that most comparisons made to what AoC will be is based on what was. New World had massive numbers at Launch. Blizzard was forced to make Classic and Hardcore because of popularity There is clearly mass appeal to something new and different and New World almost found it.

    I think its important to Remember that the player base for online gaming is substantially larger now too, it's also growing still. Which is why I think realistically people need to stop using comparisons that simply have no relevance, I understand its mostly what everyone has to go on but its also very unreliable. No one saw Tarkov and extraction shooters coming because of the same comparisons. What I am saying is look at what is happening overall in gaming, look at the current picture.

  • AbaratAbarat Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    edited July 2023
    Dygz wrote: »

    I expect MMORPG fans who don't like PvP much will be playing Pax Dei rather than Ashes.

    Perhaps. I am an avid consumer of mmo media. Pax Dei has shown so little, I think it is absurdly early to even include them in the mix. They have cool videos and exotic accents, but they have shown almost nothing of their game, and, honestly, some of the things they have shown are somewhat concerning.

    Ashes combat has been attacked and rehashed over and over... in many ways to the detriment of the game.

    How do you feel about the Pax Dei combat? is it tab or action. how are the animations?

    Why would you give them such a pass, when you are so critical (mostly appropriate) of Ashes based up real and mostly specific information?

    To sell Pax Dei as an alternative to Ashes at this point in any way but purely theoretical seems disengenious.

    I would assume @Dygz , as a rational adult, that you agree. Do you agree?
  • KingDDDKingDDD Member, Alpha Two
    Spif wrote: »
    DAoC ran strong for a long time, and is still getting new privately run public servers. But all the games that went free/private to play after a years of players and subs are really in "bonus time". It's not what any developer is shooting for.

    WoW PvP vs PvE server is a useless argument. Players on PvE servers have access to the game's pinnacle of PvP: Arenas and rated BGs. Random people ganking in the world is not a focus of the game even if some people enjoy it.

    I think travel time and even nodes evolving could be a deterrent for the casual player (ie, 10h or less per week). Spend half your play session finding a decent place to gather/level, spend the other half doing that. Then log in 3 days later to find out the area has changed. Spend more time traveling...yay. We'll see how fast the mounts are.

    Arenas and RBGs weren't in the game during the largest period of growth for wow. Random people ganking was one of the focuses of the game during it's highest period of growth. The point of even referencing this is to illustrate that historic growth happens on pvp servers. This in turn counters the many claims that ashes will be niche because of its open world nature. Flagging pve players are the minority in the MMO community at large.
  • SpifSpif Member, Alpha Two
    You can just swap Arenas and RGBs for Grand Warlord and AV rep grinding if you feel like going back far enough.

    I was in plenty of Southshore to TM zerg pvp battles and BRS entrance camping scenarios. None of it was a good PvP scene, but people did it to farm honor. BGs saved WoW's PvP
  • KingDDDKingDDD Member, Alpha Two
    Spif wrote: »
    You can just swap Arenas and RGBs for Grand Warlord and AV rep grinding if you feel like going back far enough.

    I was in plenty of Southshore to TM zerg pvp battles and BRS entrance camping scenarios. None of it was a good PvP scene, but people did it to farm honor. BGs saved WoW's PvP

    The joy of open world pvp is the constant threat and the meaningful interaction facilitated by it. I think we have a differing opinions on what makes "good" pvp. The sense of wonder for what's over the next hill is what I'm looking for. Sometimes it's a fun fight, sometimes its 30 bad people and short ride to death, sometimes it's an opportunistic gank on a member of a rival guild. These are all not supported by battlegrounds and flagging.
  • VoeltzVoeltz Member
    Fiddlez wrote: »
    So here's my take...

    WoW Hardcore, Extraction Shooters, Survival, Classic WoW. We are definitely seeing a trend in what gamers want. Theme Park/Railroad content games are going the way of Guitar Hero.

    Blizzard saw so much success with Classic and Hardcore they made them official.

    Survival games,some if not most have come with hardcore rule sets,( dropping all gear, open PVP) Ark being one of the biggest had both of these. Now even Blizzard is jumping in although I suspect it will be a watered down for everyone experience.

    Extraction shooters stemming from Tarkov's success(very hardcore style game) have started popping up everywhere.

    If I know one thing it's when companies and investors start putting their money in to it you know the numbers are there in some fashion and they like what they see.

    All I hear from everyone, Including Asmongold and other streamers is this is a niche game and it's not for everyone. Don While I don't disagree I think the degree of which they are implying is over stated, to the point that they think it might not be a very big game at all.

    While it certainly won't be COD, I also think it's potential could be much higher then New World saw at its peak. Which would be considered a massive success.

    I Understand that people don't want to get their hopes up and there's a lot of cynical people and deservedly so but if I am going to be real about it, the more I see the better it gets. It's like going from a narcissistic relationship to a healthy one, sometimes it just seems too good to be true but that's more about your past relationship then your current one. Just like that I think it's only fair we treat AoC and the devs with their fair shake. They have done nothing but be completely upfront and honest and currently in my eyes have the most integrity I have seen in a while and I have been around for a while.(I played UO and EQ1 a lot)

    There is a lot to look forward to and don't let your past disappoints ruin your experience. Judge it on its own merits. Don't buy into the cynical majority and copy past the copium quotes. I might be disappointed, that's definitely a possibility but I am also ok with that. At least as far as I can tell they are putting their best foot forward and for now that's enough.

    I agree completely. People don't want the same thing as they did 20 years ago. The gamer population is not at all like it used to be. Any player that enjoys fantasy games and PvP should enjoy Ashes of Creation. Players who resent PvP like some that haunt these forums, are far more niche than the ones they claim are. They are just bitter about the game not being built the way they irrationally dreamed it up in their heads. It's their own fault and they should have known better what they were investing in.

    Now days, the most popular games ARE PvP based, just look at MOBAs, Shooters, battle royales, Survival, pretty much any genre of multiplayer game. Also consider the fact that there hasn't been a good PvP MMO in a long time and there are a ton of us waiting patiently on the sidelines for it. There's definitely an audience for this kind of a game and it's far from small. They just need to make a good game and it will be successful. Don't change the entire game because a few relentless whiners can't handle PvP. Luckily Palia will be out soon, so they can go pick daisies on their free farms and forget about Freeholds.
  • Voeltz wrote: »

    I agree completely. People don't want the same thing as they did 20 years ago. The gamer population is not at all like it used to be. Any player that enjoys fantasy games and PvP should enjoy Ashes of Creation. Players who resent PvP like some that haunt these forums, are far more niche than the ones they claim are. They are just bitter about the game not being built the way they irrationally dreamed it up in their heads. It's their own fault and they should have known better what they were investing in.

    Now days, the most popular games ARE PvP based, just look at MOBAs, Shooters, battle royales, Survival, pretty much any genre of multiplayer game. Also consider the fact that there hasn't been a good PvP MMO in a long time and there are a ton of us waiting patiently on the sidelines for it. There's definitely an audience for this kind of a game and it's far from small. They just need to make a good game and it will be successful. Don't change the entire game because a few relentless whiners can't handle PvP. Luckily Palia will be out soon, so they can go pick daisies on their free farms and forget about Freeholds.

    Hmm, you say that people don't want the same things as they did 20 years ago, but Ashes of Creation is far closer to those games from 20 years ago than it is to modern MMORPGs. So, with this logic, people don't want Ashes of Creation?

    Using other PvP games that don't require you to pick flowers or kill rats for 200-300 hours before you can get into proper PvP isn't really a good point when it comes to the popularity of PvP in MMORPGs.

    There is an audience for this game; it just won't be that big, and that's completely fine. Any game where other players can decide if you are having fun or not in the context of MMORPGs will be niche. It might start big, but these systems will eventually cannibalize the player base. It's not like this hasn't happened multiple times already. AoC isn't going to be any different.
  • Voeltz wrote: »

    I agree completely. People don't want the same thing as they did 20 years ago. The gamer population is not at all like it used to be. Any player that enjoys fantasy games and PvP should enjoy Ashes of Creation. Players who resent PvP like some that haunt these forums, are far more niche than the ones they claim are. They are just bitter about the game not being built the way they irrationally dreamed it up in their heads. It's their own fault and they should have known better what they were investing in.

    Now days, the most popular games ARE PvP based, just look at MOBAs, Shooters, battle royales, Survival, pretty much any genre of multiplayer game. Also consider the fact that there hasn't been a good PvP MMO in a long time and there are a ton of us waiting patiently on the sidelines for it. There's definitely an audience for this kind of a game and it's far from small. They just need to make a good game and it will be successful. Don't change the entire game because a few relentless whiners can't handle PvP. Luckily Palia will be out soon, so they can go pick daisies on their free farms and forget about Freeholds.

    Hmm, you say that people don't want the same things as they did 20 years ago, but Ashes of Creation is far closer to those games from 20 years ago than it is to modern MMORPGs. So, with this logic, people don't want Ashes of Creation?

    Using other PvP games that don't require you to pick flowers or kill rats for 200-300 hours before you can get into proper PvP isn't really a good point when it comes to the popularity of PvP in MMORPGs.

    There is an audience for this game; it just won't be that big, and that's completely fine. Any game where other players can decide if you are having fun or not in the context of MMORPGs will be niche. It might start big, but these systems will eventually cannibalize the player base. It's not like this hasn't happened multiple times already. AoC isn't going to be any different.

    What you are missing is that none of the MMOs back then had anything in common really. The only thing that AoC really has in common is that it's not following or copying someone else. It's taking ideas sure and expanding sure but that's good. They also have innovation. Point being that there was no formula before they made what they thought sounded awesome.

    Best way I can explain it is Theme parks or WoW style are chips and candy. What Intrepid is making is meat and vegetables.

    Not sure what games you are referring to for "happened multiple times". I will say that your line of thinking is why people still copy WoW. The mindset that WoW showed everyone what works is a pigeon hole. Just because someone "tried" something it doesn't mean that people don't want it. Extraction shooters have become their own Genre like BRs. People don't want candy anymore
  • DepravedDepraved Member, Alpha Two
    Fiddlez wrote: »
    Voeltz wrote: »

    I agree completely. People don't want the same thing as they did 20 years ago. The gamer population is not at all like it used to be. Any player that enjoys fantasy games and PvP should enjoy Ashes of Creation. Players who resent PvP like some that haunt these forums, are far more niche than the ones they claim are. They are just bitter about the game not being built the way they irrationally dreamed it up in their heads. It's their own fault and they should have known better what they were investing in.

    Now days, the most popular games ARE PvP based, just look at MOBAs, Shooters, battle royales, Survival, pretty much any genre of multiplayer game. Also consider the fact that there hasn't been a good PvP MMO in a long time and there are a ton of us waiting patiently on the sidelines for it. There's definitely an audience for this kind of a game and it's far from small. They just need to make a good game and it will be successful. Don't change the entire game because a few relentless whiners can't handle PvP. Luckily Palia will be out soon, so they can go pick daisies on their free farms and forget about Freeholds.

    Hmm, you say that people don't want the same things as they did 20 years ago, but Ashes of Creation is far closer to those games from 20 years ago than it is to modern MMORPGs. So, with this logic, people don't want Ashes of Creation?

    Using other PvP games that don't require you to pick flowers or kill rats for 200-300 hours before you can get into proper PvP isn't really a good point when it comes to the popularity of PvP in MMORPGs.

    There is an audience for this game; it just won't be that big, and that's completely fine. Any game where other players can decide if you are having fun or not in the context of MMORPGs will be niche. It might start big, but these systems will eventually cannibalize the player base. It's not like this hasn't happened multiple times already. AoC isn't going to be any different.

    What you are missing is that none of the MMOs back then had anything in common really. The only thing that AoC really has in common is that it's not following or copying someone else. It's taking ideas sure and expanding sure but that's good. They also have innovation. Point being that there was no formula before they made what they thought sounded awesome.

    Best way I can explain it is Theme parks or WoW style are chips and candy. What Intrepid is making is meat and vegetables.

    Not sure what games you are referring to for "happened multiple times". I will say that your line of thinking is why people still copy WoW. The mindset that WoW showed everyone what works is a pigeon hole. Just because someone "tried" something it doesn't mean that people don't want it. Extraction shooters have become their own Genre like BRs. People don't want candy anymore

    aoc is 80-90% l2 and thats why i wanna play it hehehe

    also what is BRs?
  • VeeshanVeeshan Member, Alpha Two
    Solvryn wrote: »
    Ravicus wrote: »
    Solvryn wrote: »
    Fiddlez wrote: »
    So here's my take...

    WoW Hardcore, Extraction Shooters, Survival, Classic WoW. We are definitely seeing a trend in what gamers want. Theme Park/Railroad content games are going the way of Guitar Hero.

    Blizzard saw so much success with Classic and Hardcore they made them official.

    Survival games,some if not most have come with hardcore rule sets,( dropping all gear, open PVP) Ark being one of the biggest had both of these. Now even Blizzard is jumping in although I suspect it will be a watered down for everyone experience.

    Extraction shooters stemming from Tarkov's success(very hardcore style game) have started popping up everywhere.

    If I know one thing it's when companies and investors start putting their money in to it you know the numbers are there in some fashion and they like what they see.

    All I hear from everyone, Including Asmongold and other streamers is this is a niche game and it's not for everyone. Don While I don't disagree I think the degree of which they are implying is over stated, to the point that they think it might not be a very big game at all.

    While it certainly won't be COD, I also think it's potential could be much higher then New World saw at its peak. Which would be considered a massive success.

    I Understand that people don't want to get their hopes up and there's a lot of cynical people and deservedly so but if I am going to be real about it, the more I see the better it gets. It's like going from a narcissistic relationship to a healthy one, sometimes it just seems too good to be true but that's more about your past relationship then your current one. Just like that I think it's only fair we treat AoC and the devs with their fair shake. They have done nothing but be completely upfront and honest and currently in my eyes have the most integrity I have seen in a while and I have been around for a while.(I played UO and EQ1 a lot)

    There is a lot to look forward to and don't let your past disappoints ruin your experience. Judge it on its own merits. Don't buy into the cynical majority and copy past the copium quotes. I might be disappointed, that's definitely a possibility but I am also ok with that. At least as far as I can tell they are putting their best foot forward and for now that's enough.

    Niche can be added to that list of cool kid words people use to devalue others arguments.

    So I agree with your sentiment, Ashes isn't really niche. It's a call back to the oldschool in many ways.

    So the real test is how many people want to actually go back to the oldschool, go back home so to speak and how many people are just stuck in some nostalgia act.

    Personally, take me back to the oldschool. Games looked bad, but they where a hell of a lot more fun.

    I agree. I am hopeful for many people that put money into the kickstarter. I do not have the source to validate this, but the 100k number was tossed about for people to play alpha 2. There are more backers and prob in greater numbers at the lower level pledges. So even if we lose a percentage, not sure how much, of players chances are we will have many players at launch. Will need good advertising after that and not sure how much of the current younger generation will react to the old school, but I again am hopeful we will get a good percentage to try it, because there is no box cost, just a subscription. So I look forward with optimism. People need to understand that it has been well known this will have pvp and minimal hand holding. So if that is advertised for people to see, then its their choice to play and they should expect it coming into the game. Old School rules, hell I still play UO lol.

    Steven confirmed the 100k for A2.

    I am not going to concern myself with the success of Ashes, because I think for the most part its too early too tell.

    I do not think Ashes will need advertising at all, I think if it's good enough it'll stand on its own laurels and grow in popularity. Sometimes the best way to advertise isn't to Raid Shadow Legends the hell out of everything.

    I think the younger generation is really no different than generations that raised them, some will enjoy it some will be obnoxious know it all karens or kens and they'll bitch and moan on the forums till they realize they should just spend their money elsewhere.

    People have preconceived notions of PVP. That's fine, people have preconceived notions of PVE too, that's also fine. I do not typically concern myself with that, if people do not like a free flow game and they try to kick and scream into the night that Ashes forces them to PvP, we can simply look at it as it is, that person would have no integrity as they chose to press play. It's not like Ashes like every other game won't have multiple steps into the game that assumes consent.

    Anything that goes for PvP, also goes for PvE too. Anyone who cannot handle any form of PvE well then lobby games with their versions of PvP exist and are probably better suited for them.

    I find lobby PvP inferior to a good mmorpg with an oldschool feel and good combat.













    The 100k number will explode when they actually give a date for A2 tbh, most people probaly havant bought in cause there no game for them yet, once A2 becomes available or date for it there be people buying in.
  • DepravedDepraved Member, Alpha Two
    Veeshan wrote: »
    Solvryn wrote: »
    Ravicus wrote: »
    Solvryn wrote: »
    Fiddlez wrote: »
    So here's my take...

    WoW Hardcore, Extraction Shooters, Survival, Classic WoW. We are definitely seeing a trend in what gamers want. Theme Park/Railroad content games are going the way of Guitar Hero.

    Blizzard saw so much success with Classic and Hardcore they made them official.

    Survival games,some if not most have come with hardcore rule sets,( dropping all gear, open PVP) Ark being one of the biggest had both of these. Now even Blizzard is jumping in although I suspect it will be a watered down for everyone experience.

    Extraction shooters stemming from Tarkov's success(very hardcore style game) have started popping up everywhere.

    If I know one thing it's when companies and investors start putting their money in to it you know the numbers are there in some fashion and they like what they see.

    All I hear from everyone, Including Asmongold and other streamers is this is a niche game and it's not for everyone. Don While I don't disagree I think the degree of which they are implying is over stated, to the point that they think it might not be a very big game at all.

    While it certainly won't be COD, I also think it's potential could be much higher then New World saw at its peak. Which would be considered a massive success.

    I Understand that people don't want to get their hopes up and there's a lot of cynical people and deservedly so but if I am going to be real about it, the more I see the better it gets. It's like going from a narcissistic relationship to a healthy one, sometimes it just seems too good to be true but that's more about your past relationship then your current one. Just like that I think it's only fair we treat AoC and the devs with their fair shake. They have done nothing but be completely upfront and honest and currently in my eyes have the most integrity I have seen in a while and I have been around for a while.(I played UO and EQ1 a lot)

    There is a lot to look forward to and don't let your past disappoints ruin your experience. Judge it on its own merits. Don't buy into the cynical majority and copy past the copium quotes. I might be disappointed, that's definitely a possibility but I am also ok with that. At least as far as I can tell they are putting their best foot forward and for now that's enough.

    Niche can be added to that list of cool kid words people use to devalue others arguments.

    So I agree with your sentiment, Ashes isn't really niche. It's a call back to the oldschool in many ways.

    So the real test is how many people want to actually go back to the oldschool, go back home so to speak and how many people are just stuck in some nostalgia act.

    Personally, take me back to the oldschool. Games looked bad, but they where a hell of a lot more fun.

    I agree. I am hopeful for many people that put money into the kickstarter. I do not have the source to validate this, but the 100k number was tossed about for people to play alpha 2. There are more backers and prob in greater numbers at the lower level pledges. So even if we lose a percentage, not sure how much, of players chances are we will have many players at launch. Will need good advertising after that and not sure how much of the current younger generation will react to the old school, but I again am hopeful we will get a good percentage to try it, because there is no box cost, just a subscription. So I look forward with optimism. People need to understand that it has been well known this will have pvp and minimal hand holding. So if that is advertised for people to see, then its their choice to play and they should expect it coming into the game. Old School rules, hell I still play UO lol.

    Steven confirmed the 100k for A2.

    I am not going to concern myself with the success of Ashes, because I think for the most part its too early too tell.

    I do not think Ashes will need advertising at all, I think if it's good enough it'll stand on its own laurels and grow in popularity. Sometimes the best way to advertise isn't to Raid Shadow Legends the hell out of everything.

    I think the younger generation is really no different than generations that raised them, some will enjoy it some will be obnoxious know it all karens or kens and they'll bitch and moan on the forums till they realize they should just spend their money elsewhere.

    People have preconceived notions of PVP. That's fine, people have preconceived notions of PVE too, that's also fine. I do not typically concern myself with that, if people do not like a free flow game and they try to kick and scream into the night that Ashes forces them to PvP, we can simply look at it as it is, that person would have no integrity as they chose to press play. It's not like Ashes like every other game won't have multiple steps into the game that assumes consent.

    Anything that goes for PvP, also goes for PvE too. Anyone who cannot handle any form of PvE well then lobby games with their versions of PvP exist and are probably better suited for them.

    I find lobby PvP inferior to a good mmorpg with an oldschool feel and good combat.













    The 100k number will explode when they actually give a date for A2 tbh, most people probaly havant bought in cause there no game for them yet, once A2 becomes available or date for it there be people buying in.

    damn the packs just changed and i dont like the new one either ugh. i guess if i dont buy it now i never will. i remember there was a pack that i liked a while back and now i regret not buying it T_t i dont rly care too much for skins tho but oh well
  • VeeshanVeeshan Member, Alpha Two
    Depraved wrote: »
    Veeshan wrote: »
    Solvryn wrote: »
    Ravicus wrote: »
    Solvryn wrote: »
    Fiddlez wrote: »
    So here's my take...

    WoW Hardcore, Extraction Shooters, Survival, Classic WoW. We are definitely seeing a trend in what gamers want. Theme Park/Railroad content games are going the way of Guitar Hero.

    Blizzard saw so much success with Classic and Hardcore they made them official.

    Survival games,some if not most have come with hardcore rule sets,( dropping all gear, open PVP) Ark being one of the biggest had both of these. Now even Blizzard is jumping in although I suspect it will be a watered down for everyone experience.

    Extraction shooters stemming from Tarkov's success(very hardcore style game) have started popping up everywhere.

    If I know one thing it's when companies and investors start putting their money in to it you know the numbers are there in some fashion and they like what they see.

    All I hear from everyone, Including Asmongold and other streamers is this is a niche game and it's not for everyone. Don While I don't disagree I think the degree of which they are implying is over stated, to the point that they think it might not be a very big game at all.

    While it certainly won't be COD, I also think it's potential could be much higher then New World saw at its peak. Which would be considered a massive success.

    I Understand that people don't want to get their hopes up and there's a lot of cynical people and deservedly so but if I am going to be real about it, the more I see the better it gets. It's like going from a narcissistic relationship to a healthy one, sometimes it just seems too good to be true but that's more about your past relationship then your current one. Just like that I think it's only fair we treat AoC and the devs with their fair shake. They have done nothing but be completely upfront and honest and currently in my eyes have the most integrity I have seen in a while and I have been around for a while.(I played UO and EQ1 a lot)

    There is a lot to look forward to and don't let your past disappoints ruin your experience. Judge it on its own merits. Don't buy into the cynical majority and copy past the copium quotes. I might be disappointed, that's definitely a possibility but I am also ok with that. At least as far as I can tell they are putting their best foot forward and for now that's enough.

    Niche can be added to that list of cool kid words people use to devalue others arguments.

    So I agree with your sentiment, Ashes isn't really niche. It's a call back to the oldschool in many ways.

    So the real test is how many people want to actually go back to the oldschool, go back home so to speak and how many people are just stuck in some nostalgia act.

    Personally, take me back to the oldschool. Games looked bad, but they where a hell of a lot more fun.

    I agree. I am hopeful for many people that put money into the kickstarter. I do not have the source to validate this, but the 100k number was tossed about for people to play alpha 2. There are more backers and prob in greater numbers at the lower level pledges. So even if we lose a percentage, not sure how much, of players chances are we will have many players at launch. Will need good advertising after that and not sure how much of the current younger generation will react to the old school, but I again am hopeful we will get a good percentage to try it, because there is no box cost, just a subscription. So I look forward with optimism. People need to understand that it has been well known this will have pvp and minimal hand holding. So if that is advertised for people to see, then its their choice to play and they should expect it coming into the game. Old School rules, hell I still play UO lol.

    Steven confirmed the 100k for A2.

    I am not going to concern myself with the success of Ashes, because I think for the most part its too early too tell.

    I do not think Ashes will need advertising at all, I think if it's good enough it'll stand on its own laurels and grow in popularity. Sometimes the best way to advertise isn't to Raid Shadow Legends the hell out of everything.

    I think the younger generation is really no different than generations that raised them, some will enjoy it some will be obnoxious know it all karens or kens and they'll bitch and moan on the forums till they realize they should just spend their money elsewhere.

    People have preconceived notions of PVP. That's fine, people have preconceived notions of PVE too, that's also fine. I do not typically concern myself with that, if people do not like a free flow game and they try to kick and scream into the night that Ashes forces them to PvP, we can simply look at it as it is, that person would have no integrity as they chose to press play. It's not like Ashes like every other game won't have multiple steps into the game that assumes consent.

    Anything that goes for PvP, also goes for PvE too. Anyone who cannot handle any form of PvE well then lobby games with their versions of PvP exist and are probably better suited for them.

    I find lobby PvP inferior to a good mmorpg with an oldschool feel and good combat.













    The 100k number will explode when they actually give a date for A2 tbh, most people probaly havant bought in cause there no game for them yet, once A2 becomes available or date for it there be people buying in.

    damn the packs just changed and i dont like the new one either ugh. i guess if i dont buy it now i never will. i remember there was a pack that i liked a while back and now i regret not buying it T_t i dont rly care too much for skins tho but oh well

    Improvement over last 2 months imo :P i dont mind the mount and boat tbh, but i realy waiting for an asian themed set specific a cloth/lighter armor set.
  • PercimesPercimes Member
    edited July 2023
    Depraved wrote: »
    also what is BRs?

    Battle Royal. I guess. Fortnight, PUBG, etc.
    Be bold. Be brave. Roll a Tulnar !
  • FantmxFantmx Member, Phoenix Initiative, Royalty, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    I think it would be helpful to clarify if we are talking niche in the gaming community at large or the mmorpg community.
    q1nu38cjgq3j.png
  • AzheraeAzherae Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    edited July 2023
    Fantmx wrote: »
    I think it would be helpful to clarify if we are talking niche in the gaming community at large or the mmorpg community.

    According to the OP, we should ask Asmongold, or at least take Asmon's usual 'definition'.

    In which case I believe the answer would be 'both'.

    They also mentioned a counterpoint about things like Survival games and Extraction shooters, and mentioned 'bigger than New World', so I've been going with 'New World isn't quite niche and anything bigger than that isn't niche' + 'The rising popularity of hardcore games such as Tarkov implies that gaming's populace would push Ashes beyond niche'.

    So from that, I actually have a question for you... why would it be helpful to clarify that this time?
    ♪ One Gummy Fish, two Gummy Fish, Red Gummy Fish, Blue Gummy Fish
  • Azherae wrote: »
    Fantmx wrote: »
    I think it would be helpful to clarify if we are talking niche in the gaming community at large or the mmorpg community.

    According to the OP, we should ask Asmongold, or at least take Asmon's usual 'definition'.

    I would just add that I don't think Asmongold's opinion is the end all be all but in that it just seems to reflect the common notion that this game will have a smaller community. It was more to add weight to idea of the general populace feeling this way.

    I am super excited for AoC and I just don't think anyone should allow bad logic or cynicism to be their guide. Don't let others dampen it either. It might also be a disservice to the game because of how the development is being structured. Where feedback seems to have a larger roll then ever before.
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