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Cast time as a game mechanic is perfect.

DiamahtDiamaht Member, Braver of Worlds, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
edited July 2023 in General Discussion
Watching the cleric showcase and using cast time as a way to interact with an encounter is perfect. I think this concept should be applied to all classes. Usually cast time is just to balance out more powerful abilities, the way the cleric was demonstrated it was used as a way to customize existing abilities on the fly. The toolkit gets exponentially larger with this in place, definitely keep it.

Comments

  • Hutchy1989Hutchy1989 Member, Alpha Two
    I wonder if they are going to add sweet spots for casting as well. For example in the ranged basic attacks showcase they had a snipe skill that you charge up and it has this circle shrink down to a point expand and shrink again at the end of the cast, It would be cool if you shoot the arrow when the circle is fully shrunk it counts as full cast.

    Theres some skill to be had with the chain heal skill, if you know where in the bar all breakpoints are you will be able to get a lot more effciency out of casting perfectly if you dont need to heal 5 targets.
  • SolvrynSolvryn Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Diamaht wrote: »
    Watching the cleric showcase and using cast time as a way to interact with an encounter is perfect. I think this concept should be applied to all classes. Usually cast time is just to balance out more powerful abilities, the way the cleric was demonstrated it was used as a way to customize existing abilities on the fly. The toolkit gets exponentially larger with this in place, definitely keep it.

    I'd be hard pressed to see cast time work well on a melee character.
  • Solvryn wrote: »
    Diamaht wrote: »
    Watching the cleric showcase and using cast time as a way to interact with an encounter is perfect. I think this concept should be applied to all classes. Usually cast time is just to balance out more powerful abilities, the way the cleric was demonstrated it was used as a way to customize existing abilities on the fly. The toolkit gets exponentially larger with this in place, definitely keep it.

    I'd be hard pressed to see cast time work well on a melee character.

    It wouldn't be a "cast-time" precisely, but imagine a berserker or tank with a held ability that, for every hit he sustained while holding, does more damage when released. It's not a "cast" exactly, but it's a hold with different effects depending on how long it's held and what happens during that time. So, I don't think it'll be universally applicable, but there are use cases.
  • DepravedDepraved Member, Alpha Two
    Solvryn wrote: »
    Diamaht wrote: »
    Watching the cleric showcase and using cast time as a way to interact with an encounter is perfect. I think this concept should be applied to all classes. Usually cast time is just to balance out more powerful abilities, the way the cleric was demonstrated it was used as a way to customize existing abilities on the fly. The toolkit gets exponentially larger with this in place, definitely keep it.

    I'd be hard pressed to see cast time work well on a melee character.

    elven warriors in l2 <3
  • FideleFidele Member
    Depraved wrote: »
    Solvryn wrote: »
    Diamaht wrote: »
    Watching the cleric showcase and using cast time as a way to interact with an encounter is perfect. I think this concept should be applied to all classes. Usually cast time is just to balance out more powerful abilities, the way the cleric was demonstrated it was used as a way to customize existing abilities on the fly. The toolkit gets exponentially larger with this in place, definitely keep it.

    I'd be hard pressed to see cast time work well on a melee character.

    elven warriors in l2 <3

    ey
  • TheDarkSorcererTheDarkSorcerer Member, Alpha Two
    edited July 2023
    Pass. Great for PvE... i guess.... Horrible for PvP.

    I can't see anyone running those spells in PvP unless it gives immunity to dmg while casting and that you can't get interrupted.
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  • DepravedDepraved Member, Alpha Two
    well, attack speed is basically casting speed for warriors...its the same thing. you could say every warrior has casting speed
  • SolvrynSolvryn Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Depraved wrote: »
    Solvryn wrote: »
    Diamaht wrote: »
    Watching the cleric showcase and using cast time as a way to interact with an encounter is perfect. I think this concept should be applied to all classes. Usually cast time is just to balance out more powerful abilities, the way the cleric was demonstrated it was used as a way to customize existing abilities on the fly. The toolkit gets exponentially larger with this in place, definitely keep it.

    I'd be hard pressed to see cast time work well on a melee character.

    elven warriors in l2 <3

    I never played L2.
  • LinikerLiniker Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    edited July 2023
    I can't imagine casting skills on a tank or fighter besides skills that you can charge
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  • DiamahtDiamaht Member, Braver of Worlds, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Pass. Great for PvE... i guess.... Horrible for PvP.

    I can't see anyone running those spells in PvP unless it gives immunity to dmg while casting and that you can't get interrupted.

    Wouldn't need immunity, just time and space. With stuns and other cc you can find windows for this stuff.

    Plenty of games have this. But, instead an ability that only has a long cast time, you have abilities that can be used quickly as an alternative with differing/less effect.

    For melee its just a quick bash vs a sledgehammer. You just need to create a window for it. Insta cast only is kinda boring for pvp tbh.
  • KingDDDKingDDD Member, Alpha Two
    Cast times on melee makes melee unplayable in pvp unless there's enough cc to actually land those abilities.

    No one wants that amount of cc.
  • VeeshanVeeshan Member, Alpha Two
    Diamaht wrote: »
    Pass. Great for PvE... i guess.... Horrible for PvP.

    I can't see anyone running those spells in PvP unless it gives immunity to dmg while casting and that you can't get interrupted.

    Wouldn't need immunity, just time and space. With stuns and other cc you can find windows for this stuff.

    Plenty of games have this. But, instead an ability that only has a long cast time, you have abilities that can be used quickly as an alternative with differing/less effect.

    For melee its just a quick bash vs a sledgehammer. You just need to create a window for it. Insta cast only is kinda boring for pvp tbh.

    and it being balanced for group play aswell so one would think your party can vcreate your space to cast i also suspect with 8 player group size you will often see 2 healers or 1 heal and 1 off healer to cross support if main healer getting pushed
  • DiamahtDiamaht Member, Braver of Worlds, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    KingDDD wrote: »
    Cast times on melee makes melee unplayable in pvp unless there's enough cc to actually land those abilities.

    No one wants that amount of cc.

    "No one"

    Disagree completely. PvP in most games is boring because there are no options or group interplay. The abilities have no versatility and your group-mates have no effect on what you do. Everyone is basically single player. You just watch your parse and yell at people who don't keep up with a set rotation. That's boring, and that's not an mmo.

    This game is supposed to be about group play.

    Let your group mates set you up for a big strike. Require it, by creating a Meta around it, and you wind up with dynamic pvp.
  • DiamahtDiamaht Member, Braver of Worlds, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Veeshan wrote: »
    Diamaht wrote: »
    Pass. Great for PvE... i guess.... Horrible for PvP.

    I can't see anyone running those spells in PvP unless it gives immunity to dmg while casting and that you can't get interrupted.

    Wouldn't need immunity, just time and space. With stuns and other cc you can find windows for this stuff.

    Plenty of games have this. But, instead an ability that only has a long cast time, you have abilities that can be used quickly as an alternative with differing/less effect.

    For melee its just a quick bash vs a sledgehammer. You just need to create a window for it. Insta cast only is kinda boring for pvp tbh.

    and it being balanced for group play aswell so one would think your party can vcreate your space to cast i also suspect with 8 player group size you will often see 2 healers or 1 heal and 1 off healer to cross support if main healer getting pushed

    Sounds great to me.
  • AustrinautAustrinaut Member, Alpha Two
    I'd be hard pressed to see cast time work well on a melee character. [/quote]

    It becomes the literal feint. Same as in boxing when they telegraph a big right swing and then pop them with the left. Be even better if you can cancel an ability and partially reset the cooldown. Oh. Devs think about that for a passive skill for fighters and rogues if you havent already.
  • DepravedDepraved Member, Alpha Two
    Liniker wrote: »
    I can't imagine casting skills on a tank or fighter besides skills that you can charge

    bruh come on. elemental heal, entangle, hex, shillen knight skills, soul hound skills, self buffs...etc etc etc...
    KingDDD wrote: »
    Cast times on melee makes melee unplayable in pvp unless there's enough cc to actually land those abilities.

    No one wants that amount of cc.

    well, attack speed is basically cast time for melees (and btw you can have magic melees who use casting speed and magic attacks .-.).

    maybe you ust have played games where physical type characters only get gear and buffs to increase attack speed and not casting speed, and magic type characters only get casting pseed gear and buffs...but not all games are like that...

    i think people have played only the same 3-5 mmorpg so they think anything that wasnt done there is a bad mechanic or something T_T
  • LudulluLudullu Member, Alpha Two
    Depraved wrote: »
    shillen knight skills
    My first ever p2w donation was for an OEd Arcana Mace for my SK who wore mage dark crystal. I won more pvps as a "mage tank" than I ever did as a pure tank.

    People really do be real limited in their comprehension of design possibilities.
  • DepravedDepraved Member, Alpha Two
    NiKr wrote: »
    Depraved wrote: »
    shillen knight skills
    My first ever p2w donation was for an OEd Arcana Mace for my SK who wore mage dark crystal. I won more pvps as a "mage tank" than I ever did as a pure tank.

    People really do be real limited in their comprehension of design possibilities.

    wow p2w donator =x xDDD

    true though, i think its because they have only played a couple of the most popular mmorpg, so they havent seen anything different, or they also lack creativity, which is fine, since most people arent creative
  • SpifSpif Member, Alpha Two
    There are some opportunities for charge/channel abilities on melee. They may need to be run-castable as opposed to slow-walk castable, but maybe not, because snares and knockdowns are a thing

    Example 1: a buff that that grows in duration or effect the longer you hold it (higher duration, more self-effect or more party members affected). This pays time to get more effect, and would be great for PvP, especially if it had a graphical effect that others could see, and prepare for, like for melee tanks a self CC-immunity buff. For MDPS a damage buff/aura

    Example 2: A 1.5s Blade Flurry channeled attack that deals high damage every 0.5s. You can only slow-walk during it, so you only use it after a knockdown/snare. If they burn a CC-break or dodge to avoid the Flurry, that's part of the game.
  • KingDDDKingDDD Member, Alpha Two
    Diamaht wrote: »
    KingDDD wrote: »
    Cast times on melee makes melee unplayable in pvp unless there's enough cc to actually land those abilities.

    No one wants that amount of cc.

    "No one"

    Disagree completely. PvP in most games is boring because there are no options or group interplay. The abilities have no versatility and your group-mates have no effect on what you do. Everyone is basically single player. You just watch your parse and yell at people who don't keep up with a set rotation. That's boring, and that's not an mmo.

    This game is supposed to be about group play.

    Let your group mates set you up for a big strike. Require it, by creating a Meta around it, and you wind up with dynamic pvp.

    You think you're advocating for skill, but in reality you are making range king. Melee requiring specific comps to even be viable makes melee unviable.
  • KingDDDKingDDD Member, Alpha Two
    Depraved wrote: »
    Liniker wrote: »
    I can't imagine casting skills on a tank or fighter besides skills that you can charge

    bruh come on. elemental heal, entangle, hex, shillen knight skills, soul hound skills, self buffs...etc etc etc...
    KingDDD wrote: »
    Cast times on melee makes melee unplayable in pvp unless there's enough cc to actually land those abilities.

    No one wants that amount of cc.

    well, attack speed is basically cast time for melees (and btw you can have magic melees who use casting speed and magic attacks .-.).

    maybe you ust have played games where physical type characters only get gear and buffs to increase attack speed and not casting speed, and magic type characters only get casting pseed gear and buffs...but not all games are like that...

    i think people have played only the same 3-5 mmorpg so they think anything that wasnt done there is a bad mechanic or something T_T

    Attack speed is not synonymous with all animation speed. Attack speed could mean anything from all abilities, weapon chain auto attacks, cool down reduction etc.
  • DiamahtDiamaht Member, Braver of Worlds, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    KingDDD wrote: »
    Diamaht wrote: »
    KingDDD wrote: »
    Cast times on melee makes melee unplayable in pvp unless there's enough cc to actually land those abilities.

    No one wants that amount of cc.

    "No one"

    Disagree completely. PvP in most games is boring because there are no options or group interplay. The abilities have no versatility and your group-mates have no effect on what you do. Everyone is basically single player. You just watch your parse and yell at people who don't keep up with a set rotation. That's boring, and that's not an mmo.

    This game is supposed to be about group play.

    Let your group mates set you up for a big strike. Require it, by creating a Meta around it, and you wind up with dynamic pvp.

    You think you're advocating for skill, but in reality you are making range king. Melee requiring specific comps to even be viable makes melee unviable.

    I'm not sure what you are visualizing. If you mean all melee abilities need long cast times, that's not what we are saying.

    You would still have a normal style rotation just like always. What I hope to see is some ( or even most) abilities having the versatility to adjust cast time to tailor the effects/effectivness and the group dynamics bulit into the game to enable that.
  • VaknarVaknar Member, Staff
    Glad to hear that you enjoyed the showcase and this interesting mechanic! Be sure to drop your feedback in the official thread, if you haven't already! I know that this was a topic our team was especially interested in hearing thoughts on :wink:

    https://forums.ashesofcreation.com/discussion/56029/feedback-request-alpha-two-cleric-archetype-updates-shown-in-july-livestream/p1
    community_management.gif
  • DepravedDepraved Member, Alpha Two
    KingDDD wrote: »
    Depraved wrote: »
    Liniker wrote: »
    I can't imagine casting skills on a tank or fighter besides skills that you can charge

    bruh come on. elemental heal, entangle, hex, shillen knight skills, soul hound skills, self buffs...etc etc etc...
    KingDDD wrote: »
    Cast times on melee makes melee unplayable in pvp unless there's enough cc to actually land those abilities.

    No one wants that amount of cc.

    well, attack speed is basically cast time for melees (and btw you can have magic melees who use casting speed and magic attacks .-.).

    maybe you ust have played games where physical type characters only get gear and buffs to increase attack speed and not casting speed, and magic type characters only get casting pseed gear and buffs...but not all games are like that...

    i think people have played only the same 3-5 mmorpg so they think anything that wasnt done there is a bad mechanic or something T_T

    Attack speed is not synonymous with all animation speed. Attack speed could mean anything from all abilities, weapon chain auto attacks, cool down reduction etc.

    depends how you code the game. attack speed can make your animations faster. you can also code your game so that attack speed doesnt make your animations faster and only your auto attack swings.
  • KingDDDKingDDD Member, Alpha Two
    edited August 2023
    Diamaht wrote: »
    KingDDD wrote: »
    Diamaht wrote: »
    KingDDD wrote: »
    Cast times on melee makes melee unplayable in pvp unless there's enough cc to actually land those abilities.

    No one wants that amount of cc.

    "No one"

    Disagree completely. PvP in most games is boring because there are no options or group interplay. The abilities have no versatility and your group-mates have no effect on what you do. Everyone is basically single player. You just watch your parse and yell at people who don't keep up with a set rotation. That's boring, and that's not an mmo.

    This game is supposed to be about group play.

    Let your group mates set you up for a big strike. Require it, by creating a Meta around it, and you wind up with dynamic pvp.

    You think you're advocating for skill, but in reality you are making range king. Melee requiring specific comps to even be viable makes melee unviable.

    I'm not sure what you are visualizing. If you mean all melee abilities need long cast times, that's not what we are saying.

    You would still have a normal style rotation just like always. What I hope to see is some ( or even most) abilities having the versatility to adjust cast time to tailor the effects/effectivness and the group dynamics bulit into the game to enable that.

    Variable damage profiles, enabled by group comp, make for a situation where any semblance of balance cant be achieved. The mathematical damage output is created with specific thresholds in mind. If a charge ability is in that profile its either a) so insanely good it must be used/played around by both the player and competitors or b) so dog shit it's a waste of animators time to make it.

    Charge abilities are cool but they lead to uncontrollable burst in addition to other downsides. Use them sparingly for DPS and make them cool.
  • DiamahtDiamaht Member, Braver of Worlds, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    KingDDD wrote: »
    Diamaht wrote: »
    KingDDD wrote: »
    Diamaht wrote: »
    KingDDD wrote: »
    Cast times on melee makes melee unplayable in pvp unless there's enough cc to actually land those abilities.

    No one wants that amount of cc.

    "No one"

    Disagree completely. PvP in most games is boring because there are no options or group interplay. The abilities have no versatility and your group-mates have no effect on what you do. Everyone is basically single player. You just watch your parse and yell at people who don't keep up with a set rotation. That's boring, and that's not an mmo.

    This game is supposed to be about group play.

    Let your group mates set you up for a big strike. Require it, by creating a Meta around it, and you wind up with dynamic pvp.

    You think you're advocating for skill, but in reality you are making range king. Melee requiring specific comps to even be viable makes melee unviable.

    I'm not sure what you are visualizing. If you mean all melee abilities need long cast times, that's not what we are saying.

    You would still have a normal style rotation just like always. What I hope to see is some ( or even most) abilities having the versatility to adjust cast time to tailor the effects/effectivness and the group dynamics bulit into the game to enable that.

    Variable damage profiles, enabled by group comp, make for a situation where any semblance of balance cant be achieved. The mathematical damage output is created with specific thresholds in mind. If a charge ability is in that profile its either a) so insanely good it must be used/played around by both the player and competitors or b) so dog shit it's a waste of animators time to make it.

    Why would it have to be either 0 or 100 and nothing in between?

    The stuff demonstrated in the live-stream seems fine to me. If an abilities top end damage is very high, then you need to recognize that and stop it in a pvp scenario. On the other side, if you want to pull off a high power but long wind-up ability (or combination of abilities) you will have to earn that by creating a window for it. That encourages group tactics, coordination and game knowledge.

    Static abilities, on the other hand, just create a set in stone meta that you either learn or get lost. There is a correct rotation and a correct position and you need to learn it or you are not welcome in groups. That's the ultimate "its either 0 or its 100". Versatile abilities are a direct counter to that.

  • Solvryn wrote: »
    Diamaht wrote: »
    Watching the cleric showcase and using cast time as a way to interact with an encounter is perfect. I think this concept should be applied to all classes. Usually cast time is just to balance out more powerful abilities, the way the cleric was demonstrated it was used as a way to customize existing abilities on the fly. The toolkit gets exponentially larger with this in place, definitely keep it.

    I'd be hard pressed to see cast time work well on a melee character.

    an ability that hits harder the longer you hold it / has a windup would work. BASICALLY a cast time. Maybe even like single press = single target dmg and longer channel = a more of a cone like sweep?

    theres options
  • Mag7spyMag7spy Member, Alpha Two
    Black desert online had some skills you charge up and were very immobile. Using it as part of combos helped get dmg off, though they had defensive traits as well while charging some of them.

    Charge skills can work all around, of course everything has draw backs but again not everyone in game will be rnged as well. Charge melee skills can have a place as well, and could be more of a counter move.

    Ie person is attacking you in melee, you use your charge skill which blocks some dmg and than let go of it at the point you want doing more dmg the longer you charge. This will allow people to take dmg + other effects or get them to back off from you else they will be counter attacked.

    It is always important to think the reason to use skills, the strengths and draw backs it will have as well. Something isn't going to be added without some sort of strength. That being said of course charge type skills should be limited, you would start to feel clunky if that was all your skills when it comes to melee.
  • DiamahtDiamaht Member, Braver of Worlds, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    edited August 2023
    I'd prefer that the button hold be switched to a toggle though, or have a choice in the settings. One press to start, one to execute.
  • VzaelVzael Member, Alpha Two
    Do we think the charged abilities will affect server performance? I guess it depends on how the ability scales. If it does healing based on % of cast bar complete that is a lot of updates to register on the server, unless it just sends one update when the cast is ended or completed. This is a bit over my head but it was something I was worried about during the livestream
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