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[Feedback Request] Alpha Two Cleric Archetype Updates Shown in July Livestream
Hello glorious community,
We’d like your feedback on the Alpha Two Cleric Archetype Updates shown during the July 2023 Development Update Livestream.
To help guide this conversation, here are a few thought starters you can choose from:
We’ll be compiling a report for the design team on Friday, August 11, 2023, so please try to get your feedback into this thread by then!
Everyone here at Intrepid Studios looks forward to reading all the feedback you have to share!
Edit:
Here is the VOD on YouTube!
https://youtu.be/Lzlhdy3Hr2s
We’d like your feedback on the Alpha Two Cleric Archetype Updates shown during the July 2023 Development Update Livestream.
To help guide this conversation, here are a few thought starters you can choose from:
- How do you feel about the Cleric Archetype so far?
- Do you prefer abilities that have more single and specific uses, or abilities that have versatility with how they can be used?
- How many held abilities (think abilities you hold down or charge) do you prefer in an Archetype kit?
- How do you feel about being able to use Flash Cure during other abilities?
- What excites you about playing as, with, or against the Cleric Archetype?
- What are your favorite Cleric archetypes in other games? Please provide examples when applicable.
- Is there anything in particular you’re excited, or concerned about regarding what was shown with the Cleric Archetype?
We’ll be compiling a report for the design team on Friday, August 11, 2023, so please try to get your feedback into this thread by then!
Everyone here at Intrepid Studios looks forward to reading all the feedback you have to share!
Edit:
Here is the VOD on YouTube!
https://youtu.be/Lzlhdy3Hr2s 
7
Comments
EDIT:
I'll preface this with the understanding this is not the clerics final form. Things I suggest or bring up may already be in the works etc.
I did enjoy this style of presentation, small overview and then a couple demonstrations.
I know we were showcased 18 abilities, I still hope that the plan is that each archetype will be getting between 30-40 to choose from.
Ability Icons look great and represent what the ability is at a quick glance.
Spell VFX/SFX are much improved as whole from previous versions, my personal opinion they are in a really solid spot, outside of any tweaks the teams might make.
Animations and Movement has also improved, less floaty. There are some awkward arm and shoulder position on some of the casts that look slightly unnatural from the 3rd person perspective.
Gameplay
Ranged Healing looks very familiar, and at the same time, has improved on the typical healer MMO experience with abilities utilizing different mechanics.
Melee Healing sounds like it's something in the works, and this really has me thinking on possibilities. I would like to say this should be a focus for another playstyle that's built in to the Cleric archetype. Consecrating Wave is just a perfect of example, and will require positioning to play a major role.
(Self)Bless Weapon > Divine Flare (Future Location) > Wings of Salvation > Healing Touch > Consecrating Wave > Chains of Restraint > Basic Attack (Bless Weapon Procs)
Would prefer to see some additional utility/damage abilities to add in that rotation. Cleric doesn't have to be top DPS but, some DPS while melee healing would be highly engaging and vary the primary healing archetype.
Some items are hard to comment on since it comes down to playing, but for sure looks "fun".
This stream has REALLY shown the quality progression all the teams at IS have been working on. You definitely have refilled some copium tanks for many.
Additional Edits:
Wings of Salvation animation should have some holy wings sprouting , with some trailing gold partical effects.
Even though the fights were fun to watch, I'm also hoping for them to be tougher, and closer to failure, than easier to success.
Like that cleric has an effect that interacts with the tank's effects and definitely hope there's more of that with other archetypes.
Oh, and definitely want more mana interactions and gameplay from the cleric.
The part that was confusing is the questline itself. Once the questline completed, the minotaur area was overtaken by zombie Remnant mobs. However, the story arc still had a duration of 3 days left. How will this work in an open world environment with multiple groups? Does the area reset after a certain period as well?
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Do you prefer abilities that have more single and specific uses, or abilities that have versatility with how they can be used? I enjoy more versatility with heals so that I can also add to the DPS between casts, but that should be a subclass thing.
How many held abilities (think abilities you hold down or charge) do you prefer in an Archetype kit? One hold down ability would be good. Maybe one Hold down damage ability as well.
How do you feel about being able to use Flash Cure during other abilities? Depends on what ability you are casting. Judgement with a cast time is good but the hold down spells should not be able to use flash heal.
What excites you about playing as, with, or against the Cleric Archetype? I do plan to main a Dünir Cleric and I enjoy the group aspect of a healer.
What are your favorite Cleric archetypes in other games? Please provide examples when applicable.
Is there anything in particular you’re excited, or concerned about regarding what was shown with the Cleric Archetype? I used to main a Discipline Priest in wow from Vanilla-BFA and it would fun to heal via my damage. Also ive played a War Cleric in D&D for years and it is feels very similar to the Cleric ingame very much.
My closing thoughts:
I would like to see more abilities that work together with other characters abilities like the chains (Bubble improving the mage bubble to make it stronger or last longer for example).
I would like to see more info in the info cards ie. cooldowns or how many ticks it has to stack.
More abilities to use the 3rd resource (Divine Power) instead of mana. Like make flash heal use Divine power instead of mana. Maybe add a damage ability that uses divine power as well.
Maybe add some Race inspired animations to some of the abilities to give us more immersion into our characters.
I am very hyped for this game and to enjoy the Roleplayability that AOC can offer.
Dünhold Discord
Dünhold Website
The charged abilities are really great. All these abilities seem like the Cleric role will be very interactive and require skill/thought.
Just wondering about revives. There should be a single target (with health as the skill is improved) and an AOE revive.
Also, will the Cleric grant typical buffs? I saw none in this showcase.
Also consider how many healing abilities a healer can use at any one time. I noticed A LOT of healing options, so I would be concerned that it may be just as simple as rolling your face across the keyboard and you heal the party up. Give different healing abilities their own situations to use them efficiently, as opposed to using any heal for any situation and not having to worry about the mana or the cooldown implications for the most part.
Other than that, I loved it! Can't wait for the Nodes livestream next month!
I think that the gameplay showed, with the new fillers and dual use skills helps make the combat interesting for a healer. Overall I think it is a solid upgrade from a gameplay perspective.
Cleric Skills (Visual):
In regards to the visual of the skills, I think there is a lot to be desired. The cleric feels generally off to me. I can see that the class is supposed to be a holy character, but the VFX and animations do not translate to this. To me, that makes the class feel detached, which, also makes it anonymous, general, and not very distinctive from other games.
I was hoping that it would be clear, from where the Cleric draws power, through the visuals and gameplay. Is it a power which is asked/borrowed from higher powers? Is it a power that comes from having learned ancient texts? Is it a power that comes through self-sacrifice? What is the lore of the powers, and is it reflected through gameplay?
I wish there were more "practical effect" instead of particles. Wings of Salvation is a good example of where actual wings could sprout, before travelling to the target.
General Combat:
I am still confused about the combat design, and I hope it gets another revamp or gets further clarification. You say it is hybrid, but to me it seems that it is purely tab-target combat, with an option for smart-targetting, without any action-combat.
These are characteristics of tab-target combat, and not hybrid combat.
But, overall I think we are moving in a more and more positive direction.
I also loved that it was not stationary-based. Being able to be mobile while raiding is important when needing to choose between heals and moving. I can't speak to the number of things being held down, it kind of depends on what the mana difference is between a quick tap and a hold. Does holding it down make it more mana efficient? These kinds of questions are things that I'll be considering when testing Cleric.
I did enjoy the ease of using a quick touch skill like flash cure during the dash. I am interested in seeing what else can be combined in result of that.
I am very excited to try Cleric, I had my sights set on it since the kickstarter, and its grown more interesting than other healer classes I've played. I found myself wanting to push different abilities than Steven while he was playing haha
My only concern is the ability to reduce the flashiness of the vfx, but other than that, I'll have to physically test it to give my full feedback. What was shown with the different types of heals looks exciting. I am interested in seeing how difficult it will be to level -- I'm aware there are more damaging skills, but games such as FFXIV have it where the whm has limited damage meaning group play is mandatory for leveling. Not a huge issue for me -- just a little slower feeling.
** Edit to add a clip I just made**
https://clips.twitch.tv/EsteemedConcernedAppleTooSpicy-XG9QRIQPW_Zd26-f
Thank you for your hard work ^-^
How do you feel about the Cleric Archetype so far?
Looks pretty solid, and while I am totally aware this is pre-alpha 2, I am very interested in how mana management will be once the game comes out. If there are such things as mana potions or ways to restore mana, like the spell mentioned, then it only becomes a matter of using the right heals at the right time, instead i would like to see mana management be a key element to add more complexity. This is a feature that sadly some MMO's dropped, but it adds much needed complexity to a class that can often become a bit simple.
Do you prefer abilities that have more single and specific uses, or abilities that have versatility with how they can be used?
I like both, and that is the feeling I got from the stream today. I absolutely love that you have added a third resource (Conviction?) to the Cleric, instead of just having mana to worry about. This adds more complexity and I hope you will continue developing that feature.
How many held abilities (think abilities you hold down or charge) do you prefer in an Archetype kit?
As long as not all abilities are held, I see no problem having a fair few. As they were presented, they seemed good, I especially like that they are cancelable, so they will still heal when "dropped".
How do you feel about being able to use Flash Cure during other abilities?
As long as it is balanced, but this is something further testing will show.
What excites you about playing as, with, or against the Cleric Archetype?
I personally enjoy the complexity of managing health of party members, timing the correct heals while also keeping my mana pool stable, and it clearly seems that the Cleric Archetype as shown has a wide variety of potential healing abilities, which is promising.
What are your favorite Cleric archetypes in other games? Please provide examples when applicable.
Is there anything in particular you’re excited, or concerned about regarding what was shown with the Cleric Archetype?
This is only my quick immediate thoughts, but it looks to be going on a good path, but there is still things i would like to see added.
As for usability: The visuals look clean. The gameplay looks responsive. I'm happy to hear about the diverse targeting paradigms. I'm a little worried about how many instant casts might be stacked together (with good APM, or macros), but it's hard to get a good read on that before Alpha 2. Overall, looks pretty smooth.
The showcase itself, also absolutely perfect in every way for me.
Cast times, mana balance, options, all really showing off the incredible skill within the team.
Wings of Salvation is almost funny, I may never die again... super excited for that.
I basically assume that anything related to cleanses isn't in yet, but if somehow the flow or perception is that this isn't supposed to be much part of Cleric, my feedback is in https://forums.ashesofcreation.com/discussion/55552/splinter-topic-do-i-need-to-heal-that-yet
But with this level of skill design, I don't know if it's particularly useful. If you want this type of gameplay I have general faith that it will be great, if you don't want this type of gameplay, you don't need my feedback on it, I'll be disappointed but obviously combat design should be prioritized as a whole. But as hinted, CC Cleanses/breaks are not in yet, so this is ignorable.
The Heat/Meter is looking good for me, obviously as a Fighting Gamer I'm used to this granularity and specific function type, I'm actually quite interested if you want the Divine Infusion to only work on things that have relatively long casting or if that's linked into just 'the startup of the cast'.
Basically if you've got any other Fighting Gamers on team they'll know what I mean when I ask "Can I plink the input to get EX Consecrating Wave?" It's not an 'animation cancel' really, right, but it might be in the same vein? It's a higher skill ceiling but without a true fail state so it might not be as bad to add?
The mobs were decent, I definitely now assume that showcased mobs are tied to the intent of the showcase, but the flow of it all works quite well based on the general 'intent' from what I can see. I didn't really see anything else that I'd want except some form of manipulation of element Defense, but I can see how that would work best on Oracles and Spellshields.
Looking forward to testing this with daggers, I'm absolutely on board with everything about the direction. This is my 'dream-come-true' design, the FF+L2 that I want to carry the genre forward.
Please please please make the Economy good. I will literally cry if everything else is right and yet I don't want to play.
Tempo wise, it was great, Steven's play was actually quite good from my perspective of what you want the gameplay to be, since it shows that absolute mechanical skill is not going to be razor-edge for those sorts of things.
As for personal preferences, I'm sure that somewhere in all your data you have mine already, but I'll summarize.
I'm definitely trending Melee-ish range, I can't say with absolute certainty which of the other ranged heals I'd use because I don't know what my group will do/be, but I probably won't use much of the Held abilities, I'd probably have two of them to Infuse. The flow and the frame data implies to me that I could get a build where I'm usually zipping around in and out of situations and not necessarily hanging back, with the 'backline' option being weaved in, so I'd have the amount of longer ranged healing skills required to be able to do something while in the 'out' part of that phase.
As a result of that, I might not use Flash Cure much. Since I will usually be with someone else, I will probably load a lot more heavily on more powerful healing that can't target me, and have one or two of those for myself just to not be as much risk when using Barrier. I don't have any issues with it, though, I'm used to this sort of thing from other games.
Condemn seems kind of... mandatory?
I feel like most Clerics will alter their builds to situations or their groups, I can see how one wouldn't need all of them, and that means the tempo should tighten up pretty well, especially if you do put the cleanses back in to increase or decrease the tempo.
Time to kill, great (making some assumptions, you know how I do). Damage and healing numbers... no idea but I don't feel like I want them to go too much higher, as I always say this is in the perfect range for me.
Versatility is always good, I feel this is a balance question that I can't answer as much yet because I'm the analytic type. I am definitely willing to 'pay' effectiveness for versatility and my group is used to that. I hope it is okay for everyone, given the skill ceiling implied.
Since Wings of Salvation exists, I now am even more excited because even if that has a long cooldown, I know it means that the team might not 'mind' Cleric having high mobility, so Shadow Disciple might get more? That is some SPEED. I am so happy.
As requested, here's the multiple healers I play:
https://ffxiclopedia.fandom.com/wiki/White_Mage (I'll try to find the video we made)
https://blackdesertonline.fandom.com/wiki/Shai (Not actually worth it, but figure it's data)
https://onigiri.fandom.com/wiki/Staff (Already below Ashes Tier, though not by much)
https://paladins.fandom.com/wiki/Seris (Already incorporated into Ashes, assuming even ONE Stealth/misdirection augment)
https://paladins.fandom.com/wiki/Corvus (I'm pretty sure this will be covered too but this one takes a bit more work to analyze than Seris, make sure to pay attention to the Cards)
https://predecessor.pro/heroes/sevarog (Yes I play Support Sevarog with healing too, and it works better than trying to manage with...)
https://predecessor.pro/heroes/phase (I love this character but it definitely reminds why I'm not as effective backlining it unnecessarily)
https://monsterhunterworld.wiki.fextralife.com/Insect+Glaive (Does this even help? I feel like you have to play this game to understand what I mean when I say I play this as a 'Cleric')
That's probably enough. Most games don't really require healers to be anything other than healbots so I left out things like TERA, NeverWinter. Similarly team FPS such as The Division or the healing options in Elite Dangerous don't seem relevant.
My only negative feedback has nothing to do with the Cleric at all. I find that some of the mage skills fail at showing the player's group where they are and who will be taking the damage. This is important, I feel, because when doing 'predictive healer' I need to have a good idea of what is going to die soon in a multi-enemy situation.
If the overall intention is that enemies are stronger than this, and we end up fighting 2-3 at a time more often than not (with an AoE Sleep I'd be expecting this, but idk), then I don't actually 'care' about this enough. "I can't see the ice shards on the ground through the grass to decide if to Wave this group or do something else" is entirely related to how big the group is.
I'll have lots more feedback and lots more posts to link or quote from my post history.
But overall, I'm gonna try to stay excited because...
That was a great showcase, and I love where you are going with the Cleric!
I haven't mained a healer since Warhammer Online, but this made me consider it. I really love how you did the healing while healing thing with Deliverance and the quick small heal during the cast. And how it scales depending on the lack of HP. And many more things! I can't wait to see the full skill list with cleanses(?) and what-not.
i.e. if while im charging to heal and i spam flash cure. does it reduce the amount deliverance heals when it's released compared to when i start charging?
i dont know if i can speak for all healers but i like to have all my heals able to bring players to max health. deliverance being based on % of missing hp falls short of that capability, at the very least there should be a minimum amount healed.
another question, not really important though, is whether or not there will be a healing cleave with melee weapons. or is that something we will see in the 2nd archtype of healer classes.
Additionally some more movement abilities that provide support would be amazing, like the dash.
I hope I will be able to use a variety of weapons with the cleric (shield, mace, sword, greatsword even)
Love cast time impacting a spell's power and function.
I would like to see you add an additional (very different) bonus when you invest in completing a cast time of spells with a long cast time. For example, the single target heal with long cast could give the target a shield or damage buff. The chain heal could harm enemies or stagger enemies nearby. It will add further depth, provide return in that investment (both of timing of cast and the target surviving for the duration.)
I don't like that there are strictly bonuses and functions unique to melee and ranged is firmly in a "less than" posture. Let me play effectively as my robed cleric caster fantasy please!
abilities that have versatility with how they can be used?
I prefer versatility. On this, I would like to see a party-centric Archetype like Cleric have a function when an ability exceeds the number of intended targets most of the time. Whether it be a buff to allies, debuff to enemies, damage, or something else. With this, the variety of function rewards thoughtful gameplay and keeps it engaging. This could also apply to more rarely to certain signature abilities or top tier talents of other Archetypes. Could see Bard being the other Archetype that has this baked into a lot of their multi-target abilities.
In the same vein, I would like to also see some core healing spells shown to have offensive applications when targeting enemies or again when aoe's exceed the allies available and vice versa (the cc aoe ability with chains for cc/offensive example.) It would help prevent ability bloat, add value to a cleric in non-full party activities, and make their inclusion in play outside of full group play more justified/valued. This sort of depth also makes your talent choices all the more compelling when you consider this dimension of application.
Shooting from the hip, having ~3-6 cast time abilities depending on talent build feels right. I think the important point is to keep benefits related to cast time intuitive. Cast time impacting throughput, efficiency, duration (if a debuff of buff,) or number of targets/size of area of effect all feel intuitive. This should be the theme for cast times. Let the less intuitive mechanics (like the single target healing more the lower the target is) be part of the base spell.
Tuning wise it felt underwhelming in terms of throughput. I think it having a similar number of charges and much more throughput could be balanced with a recharge longer cooldown would make it a better addition to the cleric toolkit and feel more on theme for what the intended use is (miraculous oh shit button.)
Also, question on this, if it is off gcd would the cleric be able to cast this while cc'ed?
I like the healing being the focus but there still being meaningful choices between damage, cc, debuffs, and buffs when healing isn't necessary. I would like to see options like debuffing enemies and buffing ally damage being a more significant choice alongside damage. Those choices felt during the showcase underwhelming but that could be due to tuning.
So glad you asked. I prefer caster types like Divine Soul Sorcerer or Ecclesitheurge from Pathfinder, holy priests from World of Warcraft. It really actually is a big concern of mine as we continue to see heavy armored clerics with additional functionality baked into abilities benefitting melee solely.
I think I covered it all above. Special mention to the equal viability of a caster/robed cleric and what it offers in contrast. The only unique concern I have is in many games supports are the first target in pvp formats and in games where I enjoy myself the most we have meaningful ways to deter their focus. Usually through cc. Did not see that in the demo.
How do you feel about the Cleric Archetype so far?
9/10 livestream! It could have been a 10/10 if only we also saw the use of action camera mode, but again that was not showcased, which I think sends off the wrong image that AoC has a tab target-only combat system, Steven did mention it but we haven't seen it.
I Love the skill icons! absolutely amazing job with those - especially because they match with the skill VFX and those skill effects are simply AMAZING, I'd be very happy if this was the final version, they are spot on, not too much, and still enough to make combat look good!. They have identity with the yellow and some rainbow mixed in as well as the transparent shattered effect, easily recognizable as a cleric and I just love it!
Do you prefer abilities that have more single and specific uses, or abilities that have versatility with how they can be used?
I absolutely love having the versatility in combat to either instant cast or hold to charge a skill! been in love with this idea ever since I played Tera and was awesome to see AoC doing this! The potential for skillplay is amazing and the amount shown was simply perfect, a Lot of skills with this versatility to be charged or instant casted but also AoEs, Cones, and instant skills like flash heal! simply perfect I have absolutely nothing negative to say about it, that's something!
How many held abilities (think abilities you hold down or charge) do you prefer in an Archetype kit?
The amount shown in the cleric showcase was good but I wish it had 1 or 2 more! the more the better for me! I would love to see this applied to other archetypes like Fighters having an overhead strike that you can instant cast or hold and charge for extra-damage/knockdown effect, or Tanks having this in grapple they can instant cast grapple and pull 1 target or charge it for pulling multiple targets! I'd love to see that, and of course, MOBILITY always! please do not make more than 1 or maybe max 2 skills in all the class kit that roots you in place! use slows but never rooting, especially not for melee! absolutely not.
Is there anything in particular you’re excited, or concerned about regarding what was shown with the Cleric Archetype?
I really hope balancing is done right! Healers/Tanks should be strong enough not to die in 1v1s for DPS because if it's group gameplay they will just be melted by 2/3 other players. It should take CCs and synergy to kill them, also, mechanics that "nerf" these classes in pvp only such as reduced self-healing or reduced pvp-mitigation is terrible design, it makes me just not want to play that class, and tanks/healers are usually one class while DPS you have five different options to choose from, so they need to be done right!
I hope Time to Kill remains on the longer side, especially for PvP, I heard devs mentioning big burst damage during internal testing and that is a Big, big no for me, I want the 30s to 60s or more that Steven mentioned before, I absolutely don't want any skill in the game to hit a player with equal gear for more than 20% of the HP regardless if it's a glass canon build or not, TTK can kill PvP in MMOs if there is no reaction time there is no skill play, and you get bursted in 3 seconds by 1 or 2 players that just flagged up thats a big issue for the casual player base in the open world and will further incentivize ganking.
Also, love "Wings of Salvation" this was my favorite skill! reminds me of Mercy from Overwatch this has so much potential in PvP and PvE I'm glad the cleric is getting some mobility! I hope you change nothing about this skill! perfect from VFX to design its perfect!
I hope you maintain this across all archetypes and all weapons.
2) Love the matching color and theme of the ability icons and actual animations
That's how most classes should present their abilities. Themativally. (The melee classes should have less flashy animations).
Just started watching, will update.
3) Deliverance so far is easy to pull off. There should be a delay at releave if you aim to have that risk factor in. As it is now you still successfully heal the target even if the HP drops even more, very suddenly.
With a delay in release it will be more balanced.
4) The TTK the mobs is so good... that's how the normal mobs of equal lv should die to properly geared players in smallscale.
There should be higher TTK in tougher mobs with better xp, designed to be farmed but a 5-8 man group.
MP seems to go down quickly. Maybe some foods or potions and other lifeskills will improve it, maybe gear with selected stats.
It needs a bit of work.
5) The color of the bears was a bit out of place. Some inrl things are difficult to suspent when gaming. Leave the polar bears for icy areas.
6) Your cough should feature in Vera Steve since it's been with us from the beginning. Or mb you can keep recordings for some audio files of coughing.
7) the cleric needs one more body/hands animation to accompany the abilities. Maybe the classic hands-clasping, prayer stance for a charged ability to add a bit more flavour.
It might not seem like much, but it also plays a role, especially in tab target games where you do look at them occasionally.
Oh, by contrast, I hate them.
If this was going to be a game where skills came from multiple Archetypes, all for it, but I only really GET Cleric skills, I don't need them all to be 'various shapes of bright orange'.
And I say that as a varied shape of bright orange.
Any contrast they have with Weapon Skills (I should have asked if we're still getting those) or 'items' is unnecessary, since those are quite choice-heavy to begin with, you know where they are and probably will not get confused even after a while away from the game or when coming in from another game.
Now I'm fine with them being this way because I'm one of those people who remembers entirely by 'position on screen' so I don't actually care, but I find the mostly monochromatic nature neither interesting nor useful.
This show case has me very excited about the Cleric and the general feel of combat! I typically main two types of characters: Spellswords and Shamans. I think the Cleric fits that aesthetic to an extent and more so once we see augments.
Animations are beautiful.
In general, to make a class "feel good", I like to have a combination of the following:
1. Bread and butter abilities. You had this down.
2. Off-GCD abilities to fill in long casts. You have one of these with charges, which I think is enough but requires testing.
3. Procs. Have a chance to "proc" an ability, make the buttom glowy (or show some animation around the character) and get that dopamine rush when you hit it to do big heals/damage. I did not see this and would love to see something along these lines.
4. Solid utility to provide to the party. Chains/stun/mana-hammer showcased this well.
5. Mobility. I think having movement while casting is one of the greatest things I've seen, even if it's slowed. I've always wondered why a spellcaster can't slowly walk while casting... But then again, I guess I've never casted a spell in real life
5. A class resource that makes it feel unique. I was very pleasantly surprised to see you added something like this, though I am still not sold on it. Having things instant-cast doesn't scream "cleric" to me, even if it is a cool concept. That almost feels more wizard-y to me? When I think Cleric, I want to see big empowered divine smites or blasts of holy radiance. If you do stick with instant cast as the mechanic, I would allow it to be pre-selected prior to the cast to make the whole thing instant (though still having the option to cast it mid-cast with variable cost).
For soothing glow, it has 3 charges. Even if you spend one charge, it still shows 3 orbs rotating around the target. I think 1 charge should be 1 orb. If you use all three orbs on one target, then they would have 3 orbs rotating. This is a cool visual way to tell how many charges a person has.
It is very difficult to see the charges on the action bar, but I understand UI is work in progress, so not too concerned with that.
Do you prefer abilities that have more single and specific uses, or abilities that have versatility with how they can be used?
I lean towards versatility. I love the abilities like the cone and smite shown that heals/damages based on the targets. It adds diversity to the kit without overloading your bars with spells (see above). It also allows a playstyle in which you can almost "passively" heal while doing a DPS rotation, allowing main healing to be reactionary as needed (instead of just sitting there waiting for the bars to deplete).
That being said, there is a need for both as a class identity gets convoluted if everything is dual-purposed.
How many held abilities (think abilities you hold down or charge) do you prefer in an Archetype kit?
I think 1-2 per playstyle. For example, if I want a caster healer then have a held the channeled big heal and chain heal like shown. If I want a "bubble" healer, swap one with a held bubble that gets larger as you hold it. If I want a melee healer, add a "holy slam" on the ground that heals everyone in melee.
I would prefer something in the UI showing how many targets the chain heal would jump to as you charge it.
How do you feel about being able to use Flash Cure during other abilities?
I love OGCD (off global cooldown) abilities, it really enhances the flow especially when there are some held casts.
What excites you about playing as, with, or against the Cleric Archetype?
The diversity of abilities is amazing allowing for many different types of builds (and I imagine even more with augments).
What are your favorite Cleric archetypes in other games? Please provide examples when applicable.
I'll go healer archetypes in general:
1. WoW Shaman. The utility of totems, class identity, and general toolkit is great. Love me some chain heal (even if it's not really useful nowadays).
2. WoW Paladin melee healer is also a lot of fun.
3. D&D Paladin and Divine Soul Sorcerer. Paladin for the off-healing, lay on hands, big smites. Divine Soul Sorc for the cleric toolkit in combination with sorcery point utility.
Will think more on this question and come back to it...
Is there anything in particular you’re excited, or concerned about regarding what was shown with the Cleric Archetype?
This was addressed on stream, but there are too many different abilities on the bar. It was mentioned that not all of them will be there and you will have to spec into them, but I think it was an overwhelming amount of abilities. In general I think there should be 4-5 main abilities, 2-4 cooldowns, 2-3 utility spells so it's not overly complex (this is coming from someone who mains classes with 15-20+ abilities...).
Out of combat mana regen should be higher. Perhaps even in combat as it looks to only be ~2 per second? Maybe this is something that will change with gear.
Holding down abilities to charge is ok to have but only having 1 to 3 or those would suffice, most common and more used abilities should be quick in the rotation, charged abilities are only used when your not near enemies or doing some sort of finishing move. Charging abilities can also be used when your guild is agroing a boss and you have time to charge the attack or heal.
Using flash cure is a cool idea being able to use while using other abilities.
Most of the cleric spells look great, You toned down the brightness and they look very subtle which they should apply to every spell/class so we can see the battlefield more clearly. Cleric spells v.s. Mage spells is a good example what is good and what is bad. Mage spells were too bright not allowing you to see what's happening on the battlefield. Cleric spells were a good examples of how to tone down the brightness and creating subtle spell FX that looks amazing and allowing players to see the battlefield more clearly.
I can't wait to play as a cleric and use the smite and Wings of Salvation. Those spells looks really cool.
I would have loved to see how using a weapon while casting spells would look like. or incorporating different weapon choices and attacks into the rotation while using your spells.
Mage ice and lightning spells need to be turned down. They are too bright and big which covers up the players and you cant see what is happening
The Environments look amazing! I loved the ruined castle that had many ways of exploring it.
member of Knights of the Phoenix
-Great work
-Nice variety of casts
- did not notice a great variety in sounds.
Minor details
Capes
- the character cape appeared to pass through the mount
Ground texture
- the primary ground texture appeared to have no bump
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Grasses
- some ground texture grasses appeared to be floating
1. The enemies are not moving around much or any at all during fights. They feel very static. I would like to see enemies rush you if you enter their camp, spot you, or attack you right away if you cast a spell on them. I want to roll dodge if a minotaur rush up on me etc. The combat felt very much like BDO. Very static.
2. Environment looks beautiful as always!
3. Friendly player health, health bar could change color after 50%. Anything under 50% could turn bar yellow, anything under 20% turns bar orange so it's more clear.
4. For sound effects I feel most spells needs some work. Some cleric spells sounds very fairy/glittery-like while others have the impact sound of arrows hitting a sand bag.
5. Are we missing sfx for subtle foot steps? It's currently silent.
6. Caves and shadows feels overly dark. Is the team making those decisions while sitting in a bright room with sun coming in? Want to make sure those decisions isn't being made in dark editing bays.
- I think I like what I saw, especially certain different skills that are more melee oriented, perhaps useful for Cleric + Fighter combo...
- I do like some versatility with abilities, but it shouldn't be overdone.
- I generally dislike held abilities, and I do try to avoid them if possible, but I wouldn't mind 1 or 2 in my kit, if they're powerful/impactful.
- I generally do like the freedom of using certain abilities during other abilities (again, shouldn't be overdone)
- Can't say I'm a huge fan of these types of classes in games, though I do like the aesthetics of the one showcased in Ashes, and I would definitely look to use Cleric as a secondary archetype (if some of those visuals get carried over).
Overall, not much to say really, I'm not usually playing Cleric/Healer archetypes in MMOs, but I do like the way it looks, and I do like how some of the abilities are designed.
I do think there should be some more variety, as to avoid all skills looking almost the same, but on the other hand, I hate having a mess of different colors that are all over the place on my skill bar (purple, green, yellow, blue, red, you get the point).
My solution would be to use one style for damaging abilities (darker, orange/reddish), a slightly different style for healing abilities (lighter colors, maybe add some green/white), and maybe a more bluish for utility spells, all while still keeping the Cleric theme - it looks like they kinda did go in that direction. Just like the Mage has different spell colors based on the element chosen.
Oh, yeah, I preferred the Alpha-1 color schema for them, which was closer to that. I'll go look at it again, but I think that this specific feedback might be more useful from my 'hot take' rather than looking into it. If I look into it, I'm sure to find reasons to either diminish or exaggerate my reaction.
Whereas right now I have the very visceral initial 'Oh my hotbar is a big orange rectangle gradient, ok I guess I'll focus on everything else and learn those by position later' from only seeing it once.
From what my beloved UX designer tells me, this type of feedback is probably the more useful.
The cleric is good for instant cast vs held responses.
The damage for cleric is lacklustre. Gone is the original premise of damage to heal, instead we have three or four minimal damage skills. Levelling will be
a bore.
On top of these changes, we have heals that aren't even worth the spec points right now. You might be able to build a different cleric than the one shown but right now there is a cookie cutter cleric and the rest of the builds are shite.
There needs to be higher levels of healing and higher levels of damage to make up for either choice of deliverance. It is difficult to gauge effectiveness at level 15 though. I appreciate the ui change for the unique resource but again, divine deliverance does abysmal work for the effort put forth.
I'm grateful to you for the increased sources for the yellow bar even if the yellow bar generation is lacklustre.
The cleric would need far less heals if the heals were worth more and thus, could get a decent balance of damage and heals if the remit is no longer damage to heal like disc priest in wow.
Do you prefer abilities that have more single and specific uses, or abilities that have versatility with how they can be used?
It really depends on the ability. Certain abilities are powerful enough on their own to where they don't need multiple ways to use them. It's nice to have options though. I like abilities that have conditions to amplify their strength or give bonuses when met like Deliverance or the prevent death ability, or even some that can used defensively or offensively. They really add a lot of depth to combat and reward players for using them correctly. I think Augments should provide opportunities to change the way each ability works, whether that be increasing it's range, power effects, and/or application or something else.
How many held abilities (think abilities you hold down or charge) do you prefer in an Archetype kit?
Honestly it depends on the class. Ranged focused ones like healers and mages typically have more channels/charge ups while melees have less, and I think that's fitting. I would expect all classes to have some mix of ability types including channels though. Variety is good.
How do you feel about being able to use Flash Cure during other abilities?
I think it's an interesting concept to have abilities that act as amplifiers or combo well with other abilities. I may have to look at it again because I didn't see much of an impact on the heal's strength when it was used.
What excites you about playing as, with, or against the Cleric Archetype?
I generally play melee dps in MMOs, but I am excited to see all the unique builds and play styles people come up with for their Archetype. Would love to see a wide variety of viable builds using augments like tanky melee healers or more damage focused ones.
What are your favorite Cleric archetypes in other games? Please provide examples when applicable.
Warrior Priests and Disciples of Khaine from Warhammer Online. They were durable melee healers that could be built pure heals, dps or somewhere in between. Their class mechanic was a resource that empowered their healing abilities when damage/offensive abilities were used and vice versa. Very cool and unique playstyle for a healer role and they also looked badass in their high level armors. Anything like a Paladin and I'm all about it.
Is there anything in particular you’re excited, or concerned about regarding what was shown with the Cleric Archetype?
I have concerns regarding balance, but I recognize you guys haven't really gotten to that yet. The VFX is looking much better although a few of the area effect heals and beams of light were still blinding.
I like the concept of Mend but I think having basically unlimited charges makes mana management too easy. I would like to see the max charges set to 3 which would force healers to incorporate uses into their rotations gradually, giving it time to recharge opposed to just spamming it whenever they get low on mana.
I believe any of the channeled heals should have a moderate cooldown at the bare minimum. Having 16 abilities at your disposal becomes kinda pointless if you can just spam your most powerful heals over and over.
I would also say reduce the range of condemn or have it be a skill shot. I'd rather see it used more often defensively than an opener.
I'd like to see more examples of damage abilities for the cleric and how action target mode would work with the class.
I definitely support having a 2 target system, 1 for allies and one for enemies. This was in Warhammer and was extremely helpful to have as a healing or tank class. Considering how much variety of class combos Ashes will have, it would be a great addition.
Out of combat regen should not require you to sit down. This does not add value to the game, only an annoyance.
Clearly action combat and the action combat mode have taken a backseat to tab target. This has been obvious to me since the Ranger update and was again, easy to identify in this month's stream since they didn't bother showing it.
Trying to have both will probably result in 1 being ignored and everyone using the other due it being easier/superior. For healing, tab targeting actually makes more sense, I wouldn't expect everything needing to be aimed. Still, I would like to see projectile based heals and forward facing linear ground effects, similar to forward cones.
There are a lot of different games to take inspiration from the way they do skill shots and area effects like Tera, Wildstar, League of Legends, and V Rising. I know it's not going to be a full fledged Action game and I'm ok with that, I just want a better mix than what we've seen currently.
I use League as an example because there are a great mix of skill shots and AOEs. Probably half are single target, do the aiming for you and require you to be locked on, including basic attacks.They also have a mix of projectiles that pierce through multiple targets, channeled barrages, and those that stop after they hit something, all of which would be great for an MMO.
All in all, I like the direction you're taking the class. I see a lot of potential already for build tailoring and ability modification via the Augment System. I just want to see more Action! Keep up the good work.