When I first heard about the “military: trial by combat” election type I was very excited thinking that it would be a pure 1v1 system allowing players to fight on a fair basis for control of the node. The more that was explained about the system the more discouraged I became. Maybe I am misunderstanding, but it sounds like the player with the most support will have the most help when competing in the “trial by combat” objectives and therefore will take control of the node simply by having the most help.
I sure hope I am understanding this wrong because a 1v1 ladder system to determine the mayor would be absolutely epic.
Wonder if there's a market for a player or players to be more or less professional mayors? A.K.A. City Manager in real world terms. Someone who has the time to invest and is actually good at making a node more successful. And whether the elected major could delegate the role to such people.
First, I want to say that the node looks great! Actually, my first thought was, "This looks too amazing... I hope my computer can run this game." That said, I do have a few other thoughts about the node system.
I don't think I fully understand how guilds are meant to interact with nodes. Ideally, your guild would have control over the node after winning a siege, but with an elected mayor, it doesn't seem like that is necessarily true. If the siege defenders lose the battle, but have more members than the attackers, what prevents them from just re-electing the same mayor as before and maintaining control of the node?
My other concern would be that a large hostile guild would come in, direct their members to become citizens of the node to elect a mayor of their choice, and potentially steal the node without a siege ever taking place. This actually seems like it would be the preferred option because it would leave the node intact.
Lastly, I would like to see some sort of fealty system where smaller nodes could pledge fealty to a larger/more powerful node. The larger node could demand tribute from vassal nodes in exchange for their protection. I think this could offer a really interesting gameplay mechanic where several smaller nodes might band together to rebel against a ruling node if the tribute amount was set too high.
How do you feel about the Village Node Update so far?
Update was nice. I think there was a hope / an expectation of also seeing the node level up between stages, so hopefully we will see that later.
What excites you about playing and interacting with the Node system?
Its dynamic nature and every node being different. Some of the Mayoral elections seem to be fun also. Unlocking new content as the nodes levels up. Exploring different nodes with their different specializations.
Is there anything in particular you’re excited or concerned about regarding what was shown with the Village Node Update?
One concern that came to mind was how easy it will be for a player to find the relevant locations within a node, especially when all the nodes will be different. Now in the stream Steven sort of just ran into the direction pointed out by someone else. Hopefully there is some kind of feature planned that helps players guide their way within a node. A bit worried also how the less popular artisan professions will fare, if everyone just wants to build up buildings for the more popular ones.
What are your thoughts about the visual fidelity of what was shown with the Village Node Update?
Visual fidelity was spot on for Kaelar in the Riverlands. The Kaelar aesthetic has been well done, so excited in the future to see what the villages look like for other races. Generally I think though that the contrast between light and dark is a bit to much, and sometimes in extreme light you cant really make the details out aswell.
The visuals look great !!! I've also liked the "lively" feeling, having NPC doing their stuff here and there. and not just standing by.
The atmosphere was very much what I'd like to experiment while passing by a Verran village Great job guys
The mechanisms evolving around the node that have been explained make sense and seem to have been well thought.
The ones I've enjoyed the most were :
- Citizens involvement & limiting "bad mayors" impact on the game.
The mandate systems is a smart system.
- Commissions and buy orders looks good too.
I was a bit concerned about "will there be an actual need to use the caravan system on a regular basis ?" but the "buy orders" system as it has been explained seems to be a great incentive for caravans and having interactions with other nodes.
- The building tech tree is very interesting too.
I do like a lot the aspects that bring some "unique" personalization to the node (also I can't wait to see some towns with Elf/Dwarf/Orc buildings ).
Again, overall that's some very good and exciting stuff
That being said I do have a couple of concerns. The most important one being about abusing mayor election in order to harm a node.
Let's say I'm a servant of the Ancients IRL and I want to ruin good Verran people life in game through the mayor system, what is my potential of nuisance ?
In Scientific Nodes :
I can be annoying during a month, but if the citizens are not stupid they won't vote for me the next month and that's it.
=> Threat level : limited, all good.
In Military Nodes :
I may win the "Mayor fights", but again if several candidates and their supporters want to kick me out, I won't be able to be elected a lot, especially if I'm alone in the node.
=> Threat level : it feels a bit "less safe" than the scientific node but still okay.
In Religious Nodes :
I can achieve tons of religious quests and become mayor one month, but again... if I'm alone in the node and people don't want me to be elected again, they can just kill or team up to achieve more quests than me, I won't be able to do much alone
=> Threat level : it feels okay too.
In Economic Nodes :
I think this one is messed up.
Let's say I'm a guild master. My guild is strong and wealthy. There are two Economic nodes around mine, and I want to sneak in and harm them from inside.
What do I need ?
I need to give tons of guild money to two guild members. They get citizenship in the nodes. They bid an absurd amount of money in the blind auction bid, and that's it.
We can undermine these two nodes for months as long as we have money.
=> Threat level : way too great.
Basically, with economic nodes :
- There is no need to have lots on people on one's side inside the node in order to gain control over it.
In scientific node we need people to vote. In military nodes we need friends to fight on our side. In religious node we'll need people to help ups achieving quests.
But in economic nodes, what is needed is money alone. Big guilds with great economy can basically send individuals here and there to mess with economic nodes development very easily.
- It can last for a long time.
Unlike the three other node types where citizens involvement can (more or less) easily prevent a malicious individual to get control for a long time, with economic nodes it's an other story.
Even if someone manages to convince let's say 100 people to give all their money to try to "save the node", wealth in MMO is an aspect where a small number of people can beat a great number of people easily.
To put it simply : in my opinion it will be realistically way more easier to shut down Economic nodes development by abusing the mayor election system than it is for other node types.
=> Thus I think that the blind bid auction is not a good idea for Economic node mayor election.
I'd rather have a mechanism that :
- Does not rely directly on money
- Requires several citizens involvment to be achieved
- Is still "economically related"
Caravans are a good example in my mind.
Money can help making sure caravans get to their destination (by recruiting people or getting great mounts and so on), but it has its limits.
It requires citizens involvement to be achieved (protected).
It brings wealth, and thus is an economic feature.
What about making the economic node mayorship being related to caravans instead of blind bid auction ?
"We have two lives, and the second one begins when we set foot on Verra."
Looks nice! Please read following for a nice balanced caravan pvp to avoid ganking:
- 3 jobs players can do with joining npc guild
1. Trader (using caravan pets to trade goods)
2. Hunter (protecting traders )
3. Thief (stealing goods from traders)
-Each job must be chosen, changing is possible with 7 days cd after leaving
- npc guildmaster selling job capes(cape that can be weared and putting player in job mode, putting it on (only allowed in safezone) takes 150-200 seconds
- Job mode allows eg trader and hunter to attack thief’s and otherwise without penalty
- Trader und hunter must be in group to gain jobexp for higher joblevel for selling traded goods
- Higher joblevel gives more gold, let trader carry more goods, let trader using better caravan pets)
- huge Behemoth as guild caravan (like in silkroad online)
- Thief guild npc is hidden somewhere in town, thieftown possible where you sell stolen goods
- Higher thieflevel gives more gold for sold goods
-higher joblevel gives more HP for pet/caravan
Would be nice to have counselors for the mayor and any changes to the node are voted by node's mayor and counselors. This way the mayor does not have full control. Also, each member should not be part of the same guild.
Also for buy orders, in order to avoid having the mayor divulge what material will be required ahead of time. What if there could be a choice of materials?
What I mean is the mayor can choose the buy order but X amount of random citizens (X=amount of material required) are sent a message to choose one material. (No one would know who was asked and it could be on a 24hr timer at which point if there is no answers the system could choose another citizen)
Not sure if it would work, but thought I would put it out there.
Overall, I am excited but more concerned about the Village Node Update. I do have quite a few major concerns that I would like to voice that would radically change the way nodes are operated if implemented.
The first and largest concern I have is that the citizens have far too much power over the node. What I mean by this is the Mayor is determined by either popular vote, the most money, PvE Skill, or PvP skill. All of these things are "elections" rather than "installments." What if a Guild wants to control a node and install its leader as Mayor? There is no way as I understand it for a Guild to control a node in any meaningful way. It would just be work-arounds with the current system to implement a form of government that wasn't democratic. What I recommend is adding an option for the election of a mayor to be Guild controlled and operate the node within the ranks/permissions of the Guild. I would also like to see the ability to rename roles in the node. Like renaming Mayor to King or something else.
An offshoot of the above concern is that citizens having the ability to vote on policies seems unnecessary. If a citizen doesn't like the policies of the leadership, then they should just leave the node, work with leadership on changing the policy, elect a new Mayor at the next cycle (like a democracy does), or just cope with it for the time being. With players voting on policies, it puts the Mayor at the mercy of the people for their election term since if the Mayor wants to do something the people don't want, they must use a Mandate. If they do that, it likely won't go over well with the people and will lower their total "energy" to enact other policies or mandates. It is a self-feeding cycle. If the Mayor is elected, they should have more power to enact the policies they want.
The second major concern is that citizenship is too accessible. Some amount of gatekeeping should be allowed by nodes and mayors. For example, what would stop a group of refugees from coming to a town, buying up inn rooms, and then voting on policies that they shouldn't really have any say in? With how frequent I would expect players to come and go, if they can all vote on policies spontaneously by simply owning a building seems too chaotic. To solve this, I would like the Mayor to have power over granting citizenship to, say, guild members or to players that the Mayor (or other leadership) deems a player of significance. To explain the ridiculousness of it, imagine an illegal immigrant coming to a country, renting a hotel room, and then suddenly having the power to vote on federal law. Citizenship should be earned or granted, not bought.
A third concern was touched on a little in the video, but wasn't elaborated enough. What if there is a troublesome player or inactive player that the Mayor (or other leadership) wants to exile or revoke citizenship from that player? If space is limited in nodes, this absolutely needs to be a power the Mayor has. If someone gets exiled from a node, they should just get refugee status to join another node. The reasoning behind this is what if a player is active, but does nothing to further the node? Like what if a player just pays their taxes and does nothing else for the node?
Lastly, will there be nodes entirely controlled by NPCs out in the world? Not every node is player run right? It would be nice to be able for our PvE players in the guild to still participate in offensive sieges that were not PvP.
To help illustrate what I, my friends, and my family, want from nodes, I will explain what we have envisioned together. We want to rule a node with the guild leader as the mayor of the capital of our nation. Each of us would be responsible for various roles for the guild and our controlled nodes. As stated before, the guild leader would be mayor of the capital city and other officers within the guild would be mayors of other nodes. My best friend would be forge master, my father a ranger/breeder, his best friend the raid leader, another friend as treasurer, another friend for homeland security, and myself as harvest protection/player assassination. With the current mayoral system, I have not yet heard how roles for running the city can be divided off the mayor or how a city can be run by a guild instead. While these aspects could be done in a roundabout way, we could essentially have our leadership roles stripped away because the policies we want to enact are voted on by the lowest level of citizenship. We all wish to run the nodes as a "council" with the mayor (our guild leader) as the final decision maker and our guild leadership at the helm. We want a system to rule a node as imperialism or as an oligarchy.
How do you feel about the Village Node Update so far?
Even if it wasn’t the progress many would have hoped for, the things we are seeing move into the right direction. I remain confident intrepid will build the node system in a genre breaking quality, though it may take years until A2.
What excites you about playing and interacting with the Node system?
The social engineering components and potential of nodes.
Social cohesion will be very tactile towards the nodes features, things like communication and the players character presence will determine a lot on how it feels to play.
Positive points
-I liked that npcs seemed to carry around goods. I hope that they will be integrated into the actual flow of goods in a node at some point.
-Art looked overall good. My suspicion why it didn’t look great, is that work on lighting and reflection are still ahead of intrepid
-The RTS like building animation is awesome
I would prefer it if the mayor actually had to go to the town hall to use mayor features. Just opening a UI defeats a lot of the purpose of making a physical town.
I wanted to pick this up!
I think this quote of a commentor before, perfectly captures the 2 things i want to see accomplished with the node system.
Firstly player presence
Im tired of mmo towns being an empty shell of huge buildings that have 0 functionality, mostly just visual fluff around a crafting NPC that has some interactive UI menu. I hope nodes as the central system in AoC will enjoy more attention.
In the case of the caravansary, you could have a place to drop of materials, sort of how people dropped of their tradepacks on plots in Arche Age.
Some simple mechanism that automatically loads and unloads those packages onto and off the caravans.
And some building UI, that manages things like food for the animals or something?
If there is a reason to visit a building, the player presence becomes important.
Make every building have some feature with presence required and
and make every feature in nodes a physical building.
Secondly communication
A key part will be the distribution of information in nodes, as that will directly correlate with the degree of participation of players and the building of a sense of identity around nodes.
Offloading interactions and systems to some Node Ui sounds awful to me, since you diminish the value of being present at a node and make it irrelevant as a hub where people meet to garner and exchange info.
On the other hand, the current approach also doesn’t look elegant. Having to open up these complex UI menus all the time will heavily deter players from goin out of their way to interact with them and in turn makes them oblivious to the current progress building/upgrading a building.
This will detach players from their nodes and communities more, as updating on 10 different UI menus doesn’t sound realistic for most players and quite frankly that´s not fun. Instead, I would love Intrepid to opt for a more visual popping and dynamic approach, like utilizing icons or smart graphics that hover on top of the npcs head and updates the progress of the building.
It´s the same with market stalls, please find some way to not make me have to open up 50 Ui windows in an economic node. Displaying some limited information outside of UI windows will do wonders.
Maybe you could also communicate things like occupation. When a smithy is occupied, show that with some visual cues like heavy smoke and sound, instead of having the player got to some NPC and open up window that says 3/3 , all spots occupied. Things like these also have different effects, like people that approach a node can see from afar that this is a very active mining and smithing town and makes it feel more alive.
--> Essentially, running through a town 2 minutes should mean you are updated on most of the happenings and you as a player found the next node related quest/commission or whatever to do.
--> Game systems communication should be designed to flow easily and enhance the players social interactions and not prevent it.
--> The presence of players in nodes should be meaningfully integrated into the player experience.
Critique
I highly disagree with the art asset scope in the context of nodes.
9 different art styles for 4 different node types is just bonkers, especially considering we are gonna see only a few them.
Gonna try to summarize my thought on why I'd love to see a possibility for the mayor to delegate:
1. Safeguard against mayor's inaction. Say, the mayor is unable to log in to the game for some time, and the node is besieged or another world changing event takes place. If there is nobody with the authority to make the necessary arrangements, the outcome can be devastating. Essentially, players will suffer in-game consequences for out-of-game reasons they have no control over. That in my book is a big, undesirable no-no in any RPG, video game or tabletop. Having a town council of sorts might be an elegant solution to this. It's not a 100% failsafe, but the risk is greatly mitigated.
2. Immersion. Adding layers to the power hierarchy can make the game more interesting. The dichotomy of "mayor - plebs" and nothing in between seems bit boring. Also, players will have the option to take a more active part in the decision making process of their node, beyond fulfilling work orders, collecting bounties, if they want. Not to mention the roleplay options that open up
3. Sharing the workload. As the node grows in size and population, so will grow mayor's power and impact of their decisions. Having someone to delegate a portion of powers and responsibilities may be a big relief.
General Node Discussion + Village Node Visuals
I rly liked the update. The node looked great, especially with the npcs not being static and the node adapting to the geography. Its gonna be really interesting to see that in the forests. Maybe The humans cut down more trees in forest nodes while elves try to not cut them down. Or humans build around rocks while dwarfs build into the stones and ground.
Mayoral Activities
I like how while you do have more power as a mayor you still have alot of power as the normal ppl aswell so its kind of a balance. its gonna be interesting to test how nodes will interact with guilds powerwise. Will the guilds be stronger and just take over an area where they place enough ppl in every node to have a mayority(maybe not one guild but think about an alliance or maybe 2-3 alliances than make an agreement)
or will the nodes be powerfull enough to develop more "naturally" and the guilds will have to work together with the rest of the node to get there interest represented in buildings etc.
I think a mix of both would be best so in big nodes with alot of ppl guilds have to work together and are just a piece of the whole cake whereas in some low populated ares an alliance can take over power if nobody stops them. It should be hard/impossible to controle a whole metropolis just as 1 guild or even as an alliance in my opinion.
Service Building Progression
I like how not every node can do everything. But im not sure how to feel about one thing. The question is should 1 Metropolis with its surrounding nodes be able to be an expert in everything if they all work together perfectly. So when they all come together and make a plan who builds what building should they at the end have an expert building for everythig as an area together. Or should there be one metropolis area that has every weaponsmith station, every armorsmith station and every metallurgy station at max tier but they they dont have enough space for all the leather or animal or wood/ ship etc buildings. Both would be interesting in my opinion. Essentialy with option one every Metropolis would resemble a Country with each sub-node being a state. With option two every Metropolis and substates would be a state that then together with other nodes or metropolises can form a country.
Dream Nodes
It would be cool if was some way to lets stay start worshipping corruption in a divine node to recieve special buffs in exchange for becoming a seed of corruption and slowly corrupting surrounding nodes the more you worhsip the corruption.(with also ways to fight the corruption so its a battle between the holy worshippers of the node and the corruption worshipers), or maybe make a pact with some demon like thing at a millitarry node to become stronger for an upcoming battle in exchange for your node getting more corruption that you have to fight back to protect your node.
Im also interested to see the empyrian nodes.
[*] Mayoral Activities - How do you feel about the responsibilities of a Node’s mayor? Examples include setting up Buy Orders, responsibility for Service Building Expansions, and setting taxes.
Maybe this is just because i have no aged to a certain Point of ... ... "Maturity" in my Life, ^.^;"
but for the first Time ever in my now 18 Years of being an MMO Player - i can not possibly bring up any Greed and Lust for an ingame Position that come with a certain Influence - and hence, "Power".
Being a Mayor is indeed a responsible Position. A influential Position. And if it occupied by a more or less childish Person -> said Mayor concerned can really f~ things up for everyone else, who is involved with the Mayor's Node, right ?
I heard a few cool things - like for Example "Mayor's" are among the very few People who can for Example have a flying Mount in this Game,
and if i haven't misunderstood -> Mayor's can even ignore and disregard "Votes" of Node-Citizens (other Players) to some Extent : and enforce Decisions like a Dictator in a limited Degree.
Sounds pretty cool when you are the Mayor - and want something to be done at all Costs - like for Example building a "Military(?) Barracks" somewhere, or something else that might strengthen the military Strength of your Node,
but if this Position lands in the Hands of someone who is absolutely unfit to wield such Influence, i could imagine this backfiring BIIIG time.
That being said,
i am impressed that Ashes of Creation " dares " this Step - and entrusts Players with such responsible Positions. Even if it's just around or beneath like a "Hundred People" in the full Game, when every single Node Point should be occupied and every single Town/City has a Mayor.
The nice, unpredictable Room for Human Error and Failure is there. An Element that can also change the late Game World where other MMO's can be very stagnant.
Both during and after (with a small group of people) the Office Hour, we discussed tutorials and holding hands to get started. Based on everything said and thinking about it, there are 3 major words that comes to mind: Keep it Short, Simple and Informative
When looking at sandboxes, they're usually short and simple, but are limited on information. Most of the time, gaining information is gained by experiencing things rather than giving you some form of information to start with. Because of this, a lot of things are either unknown or takes time/effort to get started with. However, it does leave open a great experience and discovery for yourself, which is also important.
On the flip side, we have theme park games and are usually Informative, but too much of it. These games will hold your hand at almost every step on your way. This removes the experience and exploration within the game (system) and will get boring over time. They do however, give plenty of information but this can be both too much, overwhelming or unnecessary It's like holding your kids hand every time it wants to cross the road instead of only do it the 1st and possibly 2nd and 3rd time if deemed necessary
Now with this said, the perfect system would be a balance between the two. It's important to give the information the theme park provides but also necessary to keep it short and simple like a sandbox to keep exploration and discovery in the players hand. In order to provide best of both worlds, I think the best course of action is an easy, simplified tutorial for first time users, followed up by informative introductions entries within a compendium like Valheim.
Tutorial
Keep the tutorial as basic as possible. Things like: Use A, D, W, S to move Left, Right, Forward and Backwards and Press the right mouse key and move your mouse to look around you. Make it both informative and interactive whilst keeping it simple and bare bones. You could even add some simple guides like gathering and crafting to it. A good example would be Mortal Online 2 Tutorial without the massive amount of text. Keep in mind that most people don't have the time/patience to read all of it so it's better to keep it direct and simple.
Compendium (Informative introduction entries)
An compendium would be a great way to introduce people in your complicated systems along the way. This can be done by showing a short pop-up of a new entry within the Compendium which people could click on to get an introduction text within that system. This pop-up could of course be turned of for those who doesn't wish to see it every time An example would be an introduction to Citizenship when entering an Village (Stage 3) or above and could look something like this:
Citizenship
When a node is a Village (stage 3) or above, people could apply for Citizenship within that node. In order to become a Citizen, players require to rent or buy a place to sleep in like the Inn, Apartments, Static Housing or Freehold. After a Citizen acquired a place to sleep, they can now apply for Citizenship at <Insert NPC name>.
Citizenship comes with benefits like reduced fees and taxes, access to specific buildings within the node and other state benefits. Players are only allowed to be a Citizen of 1 node at a time but they have the option to renounce it with a cooldown of <insert time> before applying elsewhere.
By adding new entries over time into the Compendium, people wouldn't get overwhelmed by the shear amount of information the game has to offer and also have the option to search for it when needed. By keeping it on an introduction level, it allows players to explore and experience it for themselves and learn more over time. This leads towards a system that allows people to both get information and handheld to start, but leaves a lot open for self exploration and discovery of the many systems AoC has to offer.
People only believe in the beautiful view behind the tunnel, if they walk into the light at the end of the tunnel to see it for themselves.
How do you feel about the Village Node Update so far?
Answer: Overall looks good. Seems like the game is headed in a great direction.
What excites you about playing and interacting with the Node system?
Answer: The interactions with NPCs and tge environment in an MMORPG setting is what I look forward to. A sort of immersive experience.
Is there anything in particular you’re excited or concerned about regarding what was shown with the Village Node Update?
Answer: Excited by the size of the nodes. A little worried with how empty it feels, plus the FPS optimisation for midtier/budget PCs.
What are your thoughts about the visual fidelity of what was shown with the Village Node Update?
Answer: Villages lack children.
That was one element I found missing from a visual standpoint for village nodes. What made the village feel so empty and lifeless was tge absence of children NPCs running around, playing, fighting, idling, etc.
Also, NPCs need to interact with both the environment and other NPCs more. Even if it is a scripted interaction, it makes things feel more real.
How do you feel about the Village Node Update so far?
I thought it was a major improvement over Alpha 1, and I was, in general, very excited about what I saw.
What excites you about playing and interacting with the Node system?
I am excited about the communal aspect of growing a town. I also liked the node currency system as I understood it. I think there is some ambiguity from what I've read, but to me, the idea of a node currency to incentivize players to trade goods across nodes,
Is there anything in particular you’re excited or concerned about regarding what was shown with the Village Node Update?
There are a couple of points of concern for me.
First, it seems like the mayoral system in general is very limited, and it presents far too many opportunities for abuse by large guilds. By limited, I mean that 99% of people will not interact with the system at all. The only point I heard for the common player to interact is to choose whether or not to avoid contributing. Furthermore, it seemed like for every node type, and for any project, a large guild has a clear advantage. Perhaps this is functioning as intended, but it seems a bit unsatisfactory for large guilds to simple funnel all their resources up to their leader, put said leader in charge, complete all the mayor mandates, and consolidate wealth. This is in general the same concern I had with the freehold system.
I would much rather if the mayor system was a more generalized node system where all players could interact, but the mayor has more privilege. I imagine something similar to how guild systems allow players to be promoted to different ranks of authority. I think this would help because a single mayor would not have all the work, and a large group of players can experience what the devs put time and effort into building.
Secondly, while I am excited for node currency as a tool to promote inter-node trade, I am a bit worried about the particulars. For instance, if node housing is linked to node currency, a mayor could essentially set up a system where people fill orders for currency the moment they're listed (insider trading). Another example was in traded node resources. If they can only be used as node assets or in caravans, why would anyone raid a caravan? I am sure this will be ironed out as more details become available, but it seems like a very big risk.
What are your thoughts about the visual fidelity of what was shown with the Village Node Update?
I really like the visuals. I thought the node felt very realistic compared to the flat plane pop-ups from alpha 1 Winstead. I especially like the hill and features. My only complaint is that the current iteration feels very "generic fantasy" without feeling intrinsically like "Ashes of Creation." My guess is that will resolve itself as more racial aesthetics come online in the update videos.
Comments
I sure hope I am understanding this wrong because a 1v1 ladder system to determine the mayor would be absolutely epic.
I don't think I fully understand how guilds are meant to interact with nodes. Ideally, your guild would have control over the node after winning a siege, but with an elected mayor, it doesn't seem like that is necessarily true. If the siege defenders lose the battle, but have more members than the attackers, what prevents them from just re-electing the same mayor as before and maintaining control of the node?
My other concern would be that a large hostile guild would come in, direct their members to become citizens of the node to elect a mayor of their choice, and potentially steal the node without a siege ever taking place. This actually seems like it would be the preferred option because it would leave the node intact.
Lastly, I would like to see some sort of fealty system where smaller nodes could pledge fealty to a larger/more powerful node. The larger node could demand tribute from vassal nodes in exchange for their protection. I think this could offer a really interesting gameplay mechanic where several smaller nodes might band together to rebel against a ruling node if the tribute amount was set too high.
Update was nice. I think there was a hope / an expectation of also seeing the node level up between stages, so hopefully we will see that later.
What excites you about playing and interacting with the Node system?
Its dynamic nature and every node being different. Some of the Mayoral elections seem to be fun also. Unlocking new content as the nodes levels up. Exploring different nodes with their different specializations.
Is there anything in particular you’re excited or concerned about regarding what was shown with the Village Node Update?
One concern that came to mind was how easy it will be for a player to find the relevant locations within a node, especially when all the nodes will be different. Now in the stream Steven sort of just ran into the direction pointed out by someone else. Hopefully there is some kind of feature planned that helps players guide their way within a node. A bit worried also how the less popular artisan professions will fare, if everyone just wants to build up buildings for the more popular ones.
What are your thoughts about the visual fidelity of what was shown with the Village Node Update?
Visual fidelity was spot on for Kaelar in the Riverlands. The Kaelar aesthetic has been well done, so excited in the future to see what the villages look like for other races. Generally I think though that the contrast between light and dark is a bit to much, and sometimes in extreme light you cant really make the details out aswell.
Overall The Node update was very appealing to me.
The visuals look great !!! I've also liked the "lively" feeling, having NPC doing their stuff here and there. and not just standing by.
The atmosphere was very much what I'd like to experiment while passing by a Verran village
The mechanisms evolving around the node that have been explained make sense and seem to have been well thought.
The ones I've enjoyed the most were :
- Citizens involvement & limiting "bad mayors" impact on the game.
The mandate systems is a smart system.
- Commissions and buy orders looks good too.
I was a bit concerned about "will there be an actual need to use the caravan system on a regular basis ?" but the "buy orders" system as it has been explained seems to be a great incentive for caravans and having interactions with other nodes.
- The building tech tree is very interesting too.
I do like a lot the aspects that bring some "unique" personalization to the node (also I can't wait to see some towns with Elf/Dwarf/Orc buildings
Again, overall that's some very good and exciting stuff
That being said I do have a couple of concerns. The most important one being about abusing mayor election in order to harm a node.
Let's say I'm a servant of the Ancients IRL and I want to ruin good Verran people life in game through the mayor system, what is my potential of nuisance ?
In Scientific Nodes :
I can be annoying during a month, but if the citizens are not stupid they won't vote for me the next month and that's it.
=> Threat level : limited, all good.
In Military Nodes :
I may win the "Mayor fights", but again if several candidates and their supporters want to kick me out, I won't be able to be elected a lot, especially if I'm alone in the node.
=> Threat level : it feels a bit "less safe" than the scientific node but still okay.
In Religious Nodes :
I can achieve tons of religious quests and become mayor one month, but again... if I'm alone in the node and people don't want me to be elected again, they can just kill or team up to achieve more quests than me, I won't be able to do much alone
=> Threat level : it feels okay too.
In Economic Nodes :
I think this one is messed up.
Let's say I'm a guild master. My guild is strong and wealthy. There are two Economic nodes around mine, and I want to sneak in and harm them from inside.
What do I need ?
I need to give tons of guild money to two guild members. They get citizenship in the nodes. They bid an absurd amount of money in the blind auction bid, and that's it.
We can undermine these two nodes for months as long as we have money.
=> Threat level : way too great.
Basically, with economic nodes :
- There is no need to have lots on people on one's side inside the node in order to gain control over it.
In scientific node we need people to vote. In military nodes we need friends to fight on our side. In religious node we'll need people to help ups achieving quests.
But in economic nodes, what is needed is money alone. Big guilds with great economy can basically send individuals here and there to mess with economic nodes development very easily.
- It can last for a long time.
Unlike the three other node types where citizens involvement can (more or less) easily prevent a malicious individual to get control for a long time, with economic nodes it's an other story.
Even if someone manages to convince let's say 100 people to give all their money to try to "save the node", wealth in MMO is an aspect where a small number of people can beat a great number of people easily.
To put it simply : in my opinion it will be realistically way more easier to shut down Economic nodes development by abusing the mayor election system than it is for other node types.
=> Thus I think that the blind bid auction is not a good idea for Economic node mayor election.
I'd rather have a mechanism that :
- Does not rely directly on money
- Requires several citizens involvment to be achieved
- Is still "economically related"
Caravans are a good example in my mind.
Money can help making sure caravans get to their destination (by recruiting people or getting great mounts and so on), but it has its limits.
It requires citizens involvement to be achieved (protected).
It brings wealth, and thus is an economic feature.
What about making the economic node mayorship being related to caravans instead of blind bid auction ?
- 3 jobs players can do with joining npc guild
1. Trader (using caravan pets to trade goods)
2. Hunter (protecting traders )
3. Thief (stealing goods from traders)
-Each job must be chosen, changing is possible with 7 days cd after leaving
- npc guildmaster selling job capes(cape that can be weared and putting player in job mode, putting it on (only allowed in safezone) takes 150-200 seconds
- Job mode allows eg trader and hunter to attack thief’s and otherwise without penalty
- Trader und hunter must be in group to gain jobexp for higher joblevel for selling traded goods
- Higher joblevel gives more gold, let trader carry more goods, let trader using better caravan pets)
- huge Behemoth as guild caravan (like in silkroad online)
- Thief guild npc is hidden somewhere in town, thieftown possible where you sell stolen goods
- Higher thieflevel gives more gold for sold goods
-higher joblevel gives more HP for pet/caravan
Also for buy orders, in order to avoid having the mayor divulge what material will be required ahead of time. What if there could be a choice of materials?
What I mean is the mayor can choose the buy order but X amount of random citizens (X=amount of material required) are sent a message to choose one material. (No one would know who was asked and it could be on a 24hr timer at which point if there is no answers the system could choose another citizen)
Not sure if it would work, but thought I would put it out there.
The first and largest concern I have is that the citizens have far too much power over the node. What I mean by this is the Mayor is determined by either popular vote, the most money, PvE Skill, or PvP skill. All of these things are "elections" rather than "installments." What if a Guild wants to control a node and install its leader as Mayor? There is no way as I understand it for a Guild to control a node in any meaningful way. It would just be work-arounds with the current system to implement a form of government that wasn't democratic. What I recommend is adding an option for the election of a mayor to be Guild controlled and operate the node within the ranks/permissions of the Guild. I would also like to see the ability to rename roles in the node. Like renaming Mayor to King or something else.
An offshoot of the above concern is that citizens having the ability to vote on policies seems unnecessary. If a citizen doesn't like the policies of the leadership, then they should just leave the node, work with leadership on changing the policy, elect a new Mayor at the next cycle (like a democracy does), or just cope with it for the time being. With players voting on policies, it puts the Mayor at the mercy of the people for their election term since if the Mayor wants to do something the people don't want, they must use a Mandate. If they do that, it likely won't go over well with the people and will lower their total "energy" to enact other policies or mandates. It is a self-feeding cycle. If the Mayor is elected, they should have more power to enact the policies they want.
The second major concern is that citizenship is too accessible. Some amount of gatekeeping should be allowed by nodes and mayors. For example, what would stop a group of refugees from coming to a town, buying up inn rooms, and then voting on policies that they shouldn't really have any say in? With how frequent I would expect players to come and go, if they can all vote on policies spontaneously by simply owning a building seems too chaotic. To solve this, I would like the Mayor to have power over granting citizenship to, say, guild members or to players that the Mayor (or other leadership) deems a player of significance. To explain the ridiculousness of it, imagine an illegal immigrant coming to a country, renting a hotel room, and then suddenly having the power to vote on federal law. Citizenship should be earned or granted, not bought.
A third concern was touched on a little in the video, but wasn't elaborated enough. What if there is a troublesome player or inactive player that the Mayor (or other leadership) wants to exile or revoke citizenship from that player? If space is limited in nodes, this absolutely needs to be a power the Mayor has. If someone gets exiled from a node, they should just get refugee status to join another node. The reasoning behind this is what if a player is active, but does nothing to further the node? Like what if a player just pays their taxes and does nothing else for the node?
Lastly, will there be nodes entirely controlled by NPCs out in the world? Not every node is player run right? It would be nice to be able for our PvE players in the guild to still participate in offensive sieges that were not PvP.
To help illustrate what I, my friends, and my family, want from nodes, I will explain what we have envisioned together. We want to rule a node with the guild leader as the mayor of the capital of our nation. Each of us would be responsible for various roles for the guild and our controlled nodes. As stated before, the guild leader would be mayor of the capital city and other officers within the guild would be mayors of other nodes. My best friend would be forge master, my father a ranger/breeder, his best friend the raid leader, another friend as treasurer, another friend for homeland security, and myself as harvest protection/player assassination. With the current mayoral system, I have not yet heard how roles for running the city can be divided off the mayor or how a city can be run by a guild instead. While these aspects could be done in a roundabout way, we could essentially have our leadership roles stripped away because the policies we want to enact are voted on by the lowest level of citizenship. We all wish to run the nodes as a "council" with the mayor (our guild leader) as the final decision maker and our guild leadership at the helm. We want a system to rule a node as imperialism or as an oligarchy.
Even if it wasn’t the progress many would have hoped for, the things we are seeing move into the right direction. I remain confident intrepid will build the node system in a genre breaking quality, though it may take years until A2.
What excites you about playing and interacting with the Node system?
The social engineering components and potential of nodes.
Social cohesion will be very tactile towards the nodes features, things like communication and the players character presence will determine a lot on how it feels to play.
Positive points
-I liked that npcs seemed to carry around goods. I hope that they will be integrated into the actual flow of goods in a node at some point.
-Art looked overall good. My suspicion why it didn’t look great, is that work on lighting and reflection are still ahead of intrepid
-The RTS like building animation is awesome
Constructive feedback
I wanted to pick this up!
I think this quote of a commentor before, perfectly captures the 2 things i want to see accomplished with the node system.
Firstly player presence
Im tired of mmo towns being an empty shell of huge buildings that have 0 functionality, mostly just visual fluff around a crafting NPC that has some interactive UI menu. I hope nodes as the central system in AoC will enjoy more attention.
In the case of the caravansary, you could have a place to drop of materials, sort of how people dropped of their tradepacks on plots in Arche Age.
Some simple mechanism that automatically loads and unloads those packages onto and off the caravans.
And some building UI, that manages things like food for the animals or something?
If there is a reason to visit a building, the player presence becomes important.
Make every building have some feature with presence required and
and make every feature in nodes a physical building.
Secondly communication
A key part will be the distribution of information in nodes, as that will directly correlate with the degree of participation of players and the building of a sense of identity around nodes.
Offloading interactions and systems to some Node Ui sounds awful to me, since you diminish the value of being present at a node and make it irrelevant as a hub where people meet to garner and exchange info.
On the other hand, the current approach also doesn’t look elegant. Having to open up these complex UI menus all the time will heavily deter players from goin out of their way to interact with them and in turn makes them oblivious to the current progress building/upgrading a building.
This will detach players from their nodes and communities more, as updating on 10 different UI menus doesn’t sound realistic for most players and quite frankly that´s not fun. Instead, I would love Intrepid to opt for a more visual popping and dynamic approach, like utilizing icons or smart graphics that hover on top of the npcs head and updates the progress of the building.
It´s the same with market stalls, please find some way to not make me have to open up 50 Ui windows in an economic node. Displaying some limited information outside of UI windows will do wonders.
Maybe you could also communicate things like occupation. When a smithy is occupied, show that with some visual cues like heavy smoke and sound, instead of having the player got to some NPC and open up window that says 3/3 , all spots occupied. Things like these also have different effects, like people that approach a node can see from afar that this is a very active mining and smithing town and makes it feel more alive.
--> Essentially, running through a town 2 minutes should mean you are updated on most of the happenings and you as a player found the next node related quest/commission or whatever to do.
--> Game systems communication should be designed to flow easily and enhance the players social interactions and not prevent it.
--> The presence of players in nodes should be meaningfully integrated into the player experience.
Critique
I highly disagree with the art asset scope in the context of nodes.
9 different art styles for 4 different node types is just bonkers, especially considering we are gonna see only a few them.
1. Safeguard against mayor's inaction. Say, the mayor is unable to log in to the game for some time, and the node is besieged or another world changing event takes place. If there is nobody with the authority to make the necessary arrangements, the outcome can be devastating. Essentially, players will suffer in-game consequences for out-of-game reasons they have no control over. That in my book is a big, undesirable no-no in any RPG, video game or tabletop. Having a town council of sorts might be an elegant solution to this. It's not a 100% failsafe, but the risk is greatly mitigated.
2. Immersion. Adding layers to the power hierarchy can make the game more interesting. The dichotomy of "mayor - plebs" and nothing in between seems bit boring. Also, players will have the option to take a more active part in the decision making process of their node, beyond fulfilling work orders, collecting bounties, if they want. Not to mention the roleplay options that open up
3. Sharing the workload. As the node grows in size and population, so will grow mayor's power and impact of their decisions. Having someone to delegate a portion of powers and responsibilities may be a big relief.
I rly liked the update. The node looked great, especially with the npcs not being static and the node adapting to the geography. Its gonna be really interesting to see that in the forests. Maybe The humans cut down more trees in forest nodes while elves try to not cut them down. Or humans build around rocks while dwarfs build into the stones and ground.
Mayoral Activities
I like how while you do have more power as a mayor you still have alot of power as the normal ppl aswell so its kind of a balance. its gonna be interesting to test how nodes will interact with guilds powerwise. Will the guilds be stronger and just take over an area where they place enough ppl in every node to have a mayority(maybe not one guild but think about an alliance or maybe 2-3 alliances than make an agreement)
or will the nodes be powerfull enough to develop more "naturally" and the guilds will have to work together with the rest of the node to get there interest represented in buildings etc.
I think a mix of both would be best so in big nodes with alot of ppl guilds have to work together and are just a piece of the whole cake whereas in some low populated ares an alliance can take over power if nobody stops them. It should be hard/impossible to controle a whole metropolis just as 1 guild or even as an alliance in my opinion.
Service Building Progression
I like how not every node can do everything. But im not sure how to feel about one thing. The question is should 1 Metropolis with its surrounding nodes be able to be an expert in everything if they all work together perfectly. So when they all come together and make a plan who builds what building should they at the end have an expert building for everythig as an area together. Or should there be one metropolis area that has every weaponsmith station, every armorsmith station and every metallurgy station at max tier but they they dont have enough space for all the leather or animal or wood/ ship etc buildings. Both would be interesting in my opinion. Essentialy with option one every Metropolis would resemble a Country with each sub-node being a state. With option two every Metropolis and substates would be a state that then together with other nodes or metropolises can form a country.
Dream Nodes
It would be cool if was some way to lets stay start worshipping corruption in a divine node to recieve special buffs in exchange for becoming a seed of corruption and slowly corrupting surrounding nodes the more you worhsip the corruption.(with also ways to fight the corruption so its a battle between the holy worshippers of the node and the corruption worshipers), or maybe make a pact with some demon like thing at a millitarry node to become stronger for an upcoming battle in exchange for your node getting more corruption that you have to fight back to protect your node.
Im also interested to see the empyrian nodes.
Maybe this is just because i have no aged to a certain Point of ... ... "Maturity" in my Life, ^.^;"
but for the first Time ever in my now 18 Years of being an MMO Player - i can not possibly bring up any Greed and Lust for an ingame Position that come with a certain Influence - and hence, "Power".
Being a Mayor is indeed a responsible Position. A influential Position. And if it occupied by a more or less childish Person -> said Mayor concerned can really f~ things up for everyone else, who is involved with the Mayor's Node, right ?
I heard a few cool things - like for Example "Mayor's" are among the very few People who can for Example have a flying Mount in this Game,
and if i haven't misunderstood -> Mayor's can even ignore and disregard "Votes" of Node-Citizens (other Players) to some Extent : and enforce Decisions like a Dictator in a limited Degree.
Sounds pretty cool when you are the Mayor - and want something to be done at all Costs - like for Example building a "Military(?) Barracks" somewhere, or something else that might strengthen the military Strength of your Node,
but if this Position lands in the Hands of someone who is absolutely unfit to wield such Influence, i could imagine this backfiring BIIIG time.
That being said,
i am impressed that Ashes of Creation " dares " this Step - and entrusts Players with such responsible Positions. Even if it's just around or beneath like a "Hundred People" in the full Game, when every single Node Point should be occupied and every single Town/City has a Mayor.
The nice, unpredictable Room for Human Error and Failure is there. An Element that can also change the late Game World where other MMO's can be very stagnant.
When looking at sandboxes, they're usually short and simple, but are limited on information. Most of the time, gaining information is gained by experiencing things rather than giving you some form of information to start with. Because of this, a lot of things are either unknown or takes time/effort to get started with. However, it does leave open a great experience and discovery for yourself, which is also important.
On the flip side, we have theme park games and are usually Informative, but too much of it. These games will hold your hand at almost every step on your way. This removes the experience and exploration within the game (system) and will get boring over time. They do however, give plenty of information but this can be both too much, overwhelming or unnecessary It's like holding your kids hand every time it wants to cross the road instead of only do it the 1st and possibly 2nd and 3rd time if deemed necessary
Now with this said, the perfect system would be a balance between the two. It's important to give the information the theme park provides but also necessary to keep it short and simple like a sandbox to keep exploration and discovery in the players hand. In order to provide best of both worlds, I think the best course of action is an easy, simplified tutorial for first time users, followed up by informative introductions entries within a compendium like Valheim.
Tutorial
Keep the tutorial as basic as possible. Things like: Use A, D, W, S to move Left, Right, Forward and Backwards and Press the right mouse key and move your mouse to look around you. Make it both informative and interactive whilst keeping it simple and bare bones. You could even add some simple guides like gathering and crafting to it. A good example would be Mortal Online 2 Tutorial without the massive amount of text. Keep in mind that most people don't have the time/patience to read all of it so it's better to keep it direct and simple.
Compendium (Informative introduction entries)
An compendium would be a great way to introduce people in your complicated systems along the way. This can be done by showing a short pop-up of a new entry within the Compendium which people could click on to get an introduction text within that system. This pop-up could of course be turned of for those who doesn't wish to see it every time An example would be an introduction to Citizenship when entering an Village (Stage 3) or above and could look something like this:
Citizenship
When a node is a Village (stage 3) or above, people could apply for Citizenship within that node. In order to become a Citizen, players require to rent or buy a place to sleep in like the Inn, Apartments, Static Housing or Freehold. After a Citizen acquired a place to sleep, they can now apply for Citizenship at <Insert NPC name>.
Citizenship comes with benefits like reduced fees and taxes, access to specific buildings within the node and other state benefits. Players are only allowed to be a Citizen of 1 node at a time but they have the option to renounce it with a cooldown of <insert time> before applying elsewhere.
By adding new entries over time into the Compendium, people wouldn't get overwhelmed by the shear amount of information the game has to offer and also have the option to search for it when needed. By keeping it on an introduction level, it allows players to explore and experience it for themselves and learn more over time. This leads towards a system that allows people to both get information and handheld to start, but leaves a lot open for self exploration and discovery of the many systems AoC has to offer.
Answer: Overall looks good. Seems like the game is headed in a great direction.
What excites you about playing and interacting with the Node system?
Answer: The interactions with NPCs and tge environment in an MMORPG setting is what I look forward to. A sort of immersive experience.
Is there anything in particular you’re excited or concerned about regarding what was shown with the Village Node Update?
Answer: Excited by the size of the nodes. A little worried with how empty it feels, plus the FPS optimisation for midtier/budget PCs.
What are your thoughts about the visual fidelity of what was shown with the Village Node Update?
Answer: Villages lack children.
That was one element I found missing from a visual standpoint for village nodes. What made the village feel so empty and lifeless was tge absence of children NPCs running around, playing, fighting, idling, etc.
Also, NPCs need to interact with both the environment and other NPCs more. Even if it is a scripted interaction, it makes things feel more real.
I thought it was a major improvement over Alpha 1, and I was, in general, very excited about what I saw.
What excites you about playing and interacting with the Node system?
I am excited about the communal aspect of growing a town. I also liked the node currency system as I understood it. I think there is some ambiguity from what I've read, but to me, the idea of a node currency to incentivize players to trade goods across nodes,
Is there anything in particular you’re excited or concerned about regarding what was shown with the Village Node Update?
There are a couple of points of concern for me.
First, it seems like the mayoral system in general is very limited, and it presents far too many opportunities for abuse by large guilds. By limited, I mean that 99% of people will not interact with the system at all. The only point I heard for the common player to interact is to choose whether or not to avoid contributing. Furthermore, it seemed like for every node type, and for any project, a large guild has a clear advantage. Perhaps this is functioning as intended, but it seems a bit unsatisfactory for large guilds to simple funnel all their resources up to their leader, put said leader in charge, complete all the mayor mandates, and consolidate wealth. This is in general the same concern I had with the freehold system.
I would much rather if the mayor system was a more generalized node system where all players could interact, but the mayor has more privilege. I imagine something similar to how guild systems allow players to be promoted to different ranks of authority. I think this would help because a single mayor would not have all the work, and a large group of players can experience what the devs put time and effort into building.
Secondly, while I am excited for node currency as a tool to promote inter-node trade, I am a bit worried about the particulars. For instance, if node housing is linked to node currency, a mayor could essentially set up a system where people fill orders for currency the moment they're listed (insider trading). Another example was in traded node resources. If they can only be used as node assets or in caravans, why would anyone raid a caravan? I am sure this will be ironed out as more details become available, but it seems like a very big risk.
What are your thoughts about the visual fidelity of what was shown with the Village Node Update?
I really like the visuals. I thought the node felt very realistic compared to the flat plane pop-ups from alpha 1 Winstead. I especially like the hill and features. My only complaint is that the current iteration feels very "generic fantasy" without feeling intrinsically like "Ashes of Creation." My guess is that will resolve itself as more racial aesthetics come online in the update videos.