You'll recognise their abilities when they start using them, then you have to react accordingly. If you know what you're going up against before you go up against it, that's not Risk, that's Calculation.
Armor damage mitigation is not easily visible. The only thing potentially visible is mobility. If a player with light armor cosmetics moves slowly, we might be able to guess that he's actually wearing heavy armor.
Still, it's not very immersive...
If the game is F2P or has hide/show skins toggle, then I can understand the skin-clown-fiesta. But AoC is not F2P and I don't remember the existence of a skin toggle. I do not like this.
I like to see at a glance what main resistances armor provides. I do not like having to try every debuff, element and damage type during the battle. As a compromise I could agree with open information about active gear (DoTA-like), but AoC already has over 15 gear slots, which is also sad.
It seems to me that the best option would be to support the ability to toggle the display of all skins in the settings. But as soon as someone suggests this, skin lovers immediately come and promote guessing games instead of a combat system. I don't know how to cure them. Sadge.
Yeah could be a solution but those who buy cosmetics do it to show off. If no one sees it, the buyers gonna complain
Not really, me looking how I want to look doesnt have anything to do with you during open world pvp or other gaming.
I could care less than I already do if you turn off whatever cosmetic effects I put on myself so you can see whats underneath. My immersion is not impacted by what someone else that isnt actively RPing with me sees.
Yeah could be a solution but those who buy cosmetics do it to show off. If no one sees it, the buyers gonna complain
Not really, me looking how I want to look doesnt have anything to do with you during open world pvp or other gaming.
I could care less than I already do if you turn off whatever cosmetic effects I put on myself so you can see whats underneath. My immersion is not impacted by what someone else that isnt actively RPing with me sees.
This is your point of view. Unfortunately I don't think all cosmectics buyers think like you. I can give you the counter example of myself : I hate to buy cosmetics and I have never bought any cosmetics in any game. But If I get a rare legendary sword super rare that looks cool, I will show off to make jealous arround me
So I think if you don't allow buyers to show off their skinned items, some might disagree
Yeah could be a solution but those who buy cosmetics do it to show off. If no one sees it, the buyers gonna complain
Not really, me looking how I want to look doesnt have anything to do with you during open world pvp or other gaming.
I could care less than I already do if you turn off whatever cosmetic effects I put on myself so you can see whats underneath. My immersion is not impacted by what someone else that isnt actively RPing with me sees.
This is your point of view. Unfortunately I don't think all cosmectics buyers think like you. I can give you the counter example of myself : I hate to buy cosmetics and I have never bought any cosmetics in any game. But If I get a rare legendary sword super rare that looks cool, I will show off to make jealous arround me
So I think if you don't allow buyers to show off their skinned items, some might disagree
You like to make people jealous? And is harder when others can buy cosmetics...
I would prefer the game to look good.
Yeah could be a solution but those who buy cosmetics do it to show off. If no one sees it, the buyers gonna complain
Not really, me looking how I want to look doesnt have anything to do with you during open world pvp or other gaming.
I could care less than I already do if you turn off whatever cosmetic effects I put on myself so you can see whats underneath. My immersion is not impacted by what someone else that isnt actively RPing with me sees.
This is your point of view. Unfortunately I don't think all cosmectics buyers think like you. I can give you the counter example of myself : I hate to buy cosmetics and I have never bought any cosmetics in any game. But If I get a rare legendary sword super rare that looks cool, I will show off to make jealous arround me
So I think if you don't allow buyers to show off their skinned items, some might disagree
You like to make people jealous? And is harder when others can buy cosmetics...
I would prefer the game to look good.
here is a weird thought. you guys want to see the armor the enemy is using to know whats up. but hey you cant see their jewels and other pieces of gear...so you wont get information on these. so isnt this a flawed argument? also, you wont even be able to see the overenchant value of the armor...and if the user has rerolled or moved effects from the armor. so you cant really tell for certain...
on top of that, what if you do magic damage, and armors dont provide magic defense, only jewels do. their armor wont tell you if you can beat the dude or you will do 10 damage. you cant see the jewels.
so what do we do about this? (please no player inspection or armory)
here is a weird thought. you guys want to see the armor the enemy is using to know whats up. but hey you cant see their jewels and other pieces of gear...so you wont get information on these. so isnt this a flawed argument? also, you wont even be able to see the overenchant value of the armor...and if the user has rerolled or moved effects from the armor. so you cant really tell for certain...
on top of that, what if you do magic damage, and armors dont provide magic defense, only jewels do. their armor wont tell you if you can beat the dude or you will do 10 damage. you cant see the jewels.
so what do we do about this? (please no player inspection or armory)
Jewelries are invisible in most games so we are use to that. And certainly because it’s realistic and logical as jewelries are small. Also jewelries doesn’t change your mobility.
Personally I would prefer hidden level and recognizable armor + weapons. Or at least categories of armors (heavy, medium, light) and weapons (axe, sword, hammer etc.).
Even though I dislike skins and cosmetics, I dont see the issue in PvP, having played ESO.
Your enemy archetype icon is easily recognised in that game. In a split of a second, even before they use any skills.
I much preffered the old sttuff, of looking at your enemies appearance and knowing what he was.
But again, things have changed in videogames business models and products.
But keep in mind that the actual Raistlin's world was based on GAME RULES; Wizards couldn't wear armor tougher than velvet robes.
SS's world is one that doesn't depend solely on magic moons and spell-casters by the rules of magical moons; Perhaps the standard that some of us have previosuly judged magical "rules" by is irrelevant and out-dated, by modern standards?
As far as cosmetic gear goes? Just accept it for what it is. Yours truly will be COMING TO Verrra as a member of the upper-Class; Maybe YOU are a scrub who can't get no love - BUT, *I'm* a perons of degree - with a PEDEGREE - of whom most of life is behind him?; My glory days might have been High School/College on Sanctus, wherein a non-magical world has the *most* magic, that life had to offer?
How can you argue that a 40-something on Sanctus *SHOULDN'T* look like a socially-advanced person, upon the moment they come to Verra?
Even though I dislike skins and cosmetics, I dont see the issue in PvP, having played ESO.
Your enemy archetype icon is easily recognised in that game. In a split of a second, even before they use any skills.
I much preffered the old sttuff, of looking at your enemies appearance and knowing what he was.
But again, things have changed in videogames business models and products.
For small scale, this is true.
It's larger scale (anything more than 8 players, really) where this method starts to become cumbersome.
Ashes is a High Magic Fantasy setting.
Which means we should expect Illusions to be common. "Realistic" is irrelevant when it comes to appearance.
In this case, a video game being a virtual world, it's all illusion and appearance, and nothing is relevant. But rather than imagining ourselves evolving in nothingness, we can take AOC's parallel reality into consideration and present our point of view.
Even though I dislike skins and cosmetics, I dont see the issue in PvP, having played ESO.
Your enemy archetype icon is easily recognised in that game. In a split of a second, even before they use any skills.
I much preffered the old sttuff, of looking at your enemies appearance and knowing what he was.
But again, things have changed in videogames business models and products.
For small scale, this is true.
It's larger scale (anything more than 8 players, really) where this method starts to become cumbersome.
Pfff.... always arguing. Not only the icons are instantly visible, but on large scale, the players know each other by name, let alone class.
Even though I dislike skins and cosmetics, I dont see the issue in PvP, having played ESO.
Your enemy archetype icon is easily recognised in that game. In a split of a second, even before they use any skills.
I much preffered the old sttuff, of looking at your enemies appearance and knowing what he was.
But again, things have changed in videogames business models and products.
For small scale, this is true.
It's larger scale (anything more than 8 players, really) where this method starts to become cumbersome.
Pfff.... always arguing. Not only the icons are instantly visible, but on large scale, the players know each other by name, let alone class.
Icons are only visible when you have someone targeted.
With 10k players on a server, you won't know everyone. You are thinking of L2 (probably private servers) with a few hundred players.
The system Ashes is looking at is exactly the same as the system Archeage had. The problems I am talking about were problems in that game.
archeage didnt have classes you could choose at the start, you had 3 trees that you would combine into your class, so it was harder to tell.
i played on rpg club gracia final, a p. server with 15000 players in L2, its true that i didnt know everyones name, but most people were irrelevant, you would just kill them. you would learn the cp, not individual players.
you were either in ooc or the russian ally (forgot the name but leader was called pinky i think) and if you not, you basically didnt matter. we all had macros with their doombringer's names and healers. im talking about 300vs300 and 500 vs 500 fights. you learned the name of certain people and for the rest you would just know what they were by just looking at them. you couldnt even tell who was what by clicking them, you had to actually look at them and know.
also, as you level up, you will be running into the same people over and over at different spots, you will eventually learn their names and their class and gear, etc.
if you have beef with another node or guild, you will also learn their names, their class, etc. and usually just the ones that either give you trouble in pvp, or die really fast / are so bad its funny T_T people who are at the other side of the map who have no beef with you, might as well not even exist. so the 10k players gets reduced to a few hundred.
Even though I dislike skins and cosmetics, I dont see the issue in PvP, having played ESO.
Your enemy archetype icon is easily recognised in that game. In a split of a second, even before they use any skills.
I much preffered the old sttuff, of looking at your enemies appearance and knowing what he was.
But again, things have changed in videogames business models and products.
For small scale, this is true.
It's larger scale (anything more than 8 players, really) where this method starts to become cumbersome.
Pfff.... always arguing. Not only the icons are instantly visible, but on large scale, the players know each other by name, let alone class.
Icons are only visible when you have someone targeted.
With 10k players on a server, you won't know everyone. You are thinking of L2 (probably private servers) with a few hundred players.
The system Ashes is looking at is exactly the same as the system Archeage had. The problems I am talking about were problems in that game.
Not knowing someone's build before you attack them just adds to the Risk in "Risk vs Reward". It's part of the game.
Oh?
Where does it add to the reward part?
The 'Reward' part is the loot you get from the kill. That's why I said it added to the 'Risk' part, and didn't say it added to the 'Reward' part.
If you've already calculated that you're going to win before you've started the match, then that's not Risk. That's Calculation. The game hasn't been sold as 'Calculation vs Reward'.
Knowing too much about an opponent just makes the process too simple. Working out info about the character from subtle nuances in how they move and react with the world around them, and working out resistances from your own damage scores and reacting to that yourself, and always having that possibility in the background that you may lose - that's much more interesting than simply sitting in sneak, looking at a list of stats, and going "Nope" .... "Nope" .... "Yep" .... "Nope" ....
I'd much rather take an interesting experience over a hand-holding Nope-Yep game.
I for one am EXTREMELY happy about outfits and "transmog" being a thing. So many seem to forget the RPG aspect in a MMORPG.
I do not miss the times -at all- when you were stuck with the look of often awful over-the-top gear.
I am all for putting some restrictions like "heavy armor", "medium armor", "light armor" etc, but I do not care if they don't do that. Good PvP players will read classes easily by their abilities either way.
I think most of the people on the forums would agree that the current skin & cosmetic policy is at the very least reason for concern. With that being said: I think this discussion is postponed by Intrepid intentionally until we are in Alpha 2.
Why would they do so?
- During the Alpha 2 the cosmetic system should be in place so that we can see how well the indicators for armor work. This is - for now - the way to mitigate the fact, that a player could disguise their armor type intentionally
- The alternative to disable skins would be financially VERY significant. Therefore IF it turns out during the A2 that it is necessary to abandon the skin system (as unlikely as it may be) it would be better to do so after they generated some hype and with it additional income which they could in turn use to pay out the customers who lost their skins and costumes.
- During Alpha 2 they have the chance to familiarize players with potential solutions to the question "What gear is this one wearing?" and find one that a lot of us sceptics will agree with. Addtitionally they can still adjust the system which might gain them more approval except from the crowd who is not strictly against all sorts of cosmetics. Maybe they conclude that there could be servers where cosmetics are only visible to the one wearing them - who knows.
Suffice to say: The cosmetic system and gear indicator, IMO are more subject to change than many others and therefore as much as I also dislike the extent to which current cosmetics could deceive in PvP, I am optimistic that there will be an acceptable solution to this during A2
current skin & cosmetic policy is at the very least reason for concern.
I agree that is not the most important thing but I could tell the same about most of current topics on the forum.
A simple button to deactivate transmog seems to be the best solution. Those who want to look like a mage, a warrior or a camel are free to do so. Those who want to know the true appearance of other players can do so.
current skin & cosmetic policy is at the very least reason for concern.
I agree that is not the most important thing but I could tell the same about most of current topics on the forum.
A simple button to deactivate transmog seems to be the best solution. Those who want to look like a mage, a warrior or a camel are free to do so. Those who want to know the true appearance of other players can do so.
That way, everyone's happy.
I think you misunderstood what I was trying to say, which is that the people in the forums in a large number are concerned about the current skin & cosmetics policy or more than just concerned. Meaning I think people are very much aware that this could become a huge issue for PvP in particular^^
And like I said - it would probably be okay if people were the only ones to see their cosmetics.
Other options would be:
During sieges there are no cosmetics.
If one turns red or purple cosmetics become deactivated for others (they can see your real armor)
The minimum requirement in my opinion is this: the indicator for what the actual armor is has to be something very clear, that has to be visible on the character, not just in the UI.
current skin & cosmetic policy is at the very least reason for concern.
I agree that is not the most important thing but I could tell the same about most of current topics on the forum.
A simple button to deactivate transmog seems to be the best solution. Those who want to look like a mage, a warrior or a camel are free to do so. Those who want to know the true appearance of other players can do so.
That way, everyone's happy.
I think you misunderstood what I was trying to say, which is that the people in the forums in a large number are concerned about the current skin & cosmetics policy or more than just concerned. Meaning I think people are very much aware that this could become a huge issue for PvP in particular^^
And like I said - it would probably be okay if people were the only ones to see their cosmetics.
Other options would be:
During sieges there are no cosmetics.
If one turns red or purple cosmetics become deactivated for others (they can see your real armor)
The minimum requirement in my opinion is this: the indicator for what the actual armor is has to be something very clear, that has to be visible on the character, not just in the UI.
A simple button to deactivate transmog seems to be the best solution. Those who want to look like a mage, a warrior or a camel are free to do so. Those who want to know the true appearance of other players can do so.
That way, everyone's happy.
Honestly this. Doesn't matter to me at all what you see me like.
As the game goes on chances are my appearance for my own use will be modded anyway to support my RP character development, because looks matter a lot for a character, and you wont see any of what I see
A simple button to deactivate transmog seems to be the best solution. Those who want to look like a mage, a warrior or a camel are free to do so. Those who want to know the true appearance of other players can do so.
That way, everyone's happy.
Honestly this. Doesn't matter to me at all what you see me like.
As the game goes on chances are my appearance for my own use will be modded anyway to support my RP character development, because looks matter a lot for a character, and you wont see any of what I see
Here I don't get you, because your RP char is already the orignal one withotu cosmetics. Cosmetics is kind of RP in the RP. No ?
Also, I get the feeling from reading comments from some people that they expect RPers to be in character 100% of the time, which maybe a portion of them do, but I dont. I only RP with a handful of people at a time in story campaigns of our own making. I very rarely do walk up open world spontaneous RP, can be fun, and many people like that, but its my character, my story, I do what I want.
When I pvp, I pvp
When I pve grind, I pve grind
When I want to RP, I RP
And in each case, I want to look like however I want to look like, and quite honestly that doesnt have to be the concern of anyone else if they dont want it to be.
I've used mods for my own look and even spell animations in games for years, and the only people I am concerned with seeing me how I see myself, are the people I play with. The same will hold true with cosmetics in ashes, which I will use until a stable moding community grows here. (To be fair, the spell effects I've seen from Intrepid in these monthly showcases are pretty badass, I doubt I will want to mod them)
However I picture my character in whatever he is doing, is how I will make him look.
I could care less how someone else sees me if they dont want to see what I see.
Comments
Armor damage mitigation is not easily visible. The only thing potentially visible is mobility. If a player with light armor cosmetics moves slowly, we might be able to guess that he's actually wearing heavy armor.
Still, it's not very immersive...
I like to see at a glance what main resistances armor provides. I do not like having to try every debuff, element and damage type during the battle. As a compromise I could agree with open information about active gear (DoTA-like), but AoC already has over 15 gear slots, which is also sad.
It seems to me that the best option would be to support the ability to toggle the display of all skins in the settings. But as soon as someone suggests this, skin lovers immediately come and promote guessing games instead of a combat system. I don't know how to cure them. Sadge.
Not really, me looking how I want to look doesnt have anything to do with you during open world pvp or other gaming.
I could care less than I already do if you turn off whatever cosmetic effects I put on myself so you can see whats underneath. My immersion is not impacted by what someone else that isnt actively RPing with me sees.
This is your point of view. Unfortunately I don't think all cosmectics buyers think like you. I can give you the counter example of myself : I hate to buy cosmetics and I have never bought any cosmetics in any game. But If I get a rare legendary sword super rare that looks cool, I will show off to make jealous arround me
So I think if you don't allow buyers to show off their skinned items, some might disagree
You like to make people jealous? And is harder when others can buy cosmetics...
I would prefer the game to look good.
Not in a bad way. Envious I should have say )
on top of that, what if you do magic damage, and armors dont provide magic defense, only jewels do. their armor wont tell you if you can beat the dude or you will do 10 damage. you cant see the jewels.
so what do we do about this? (please no player inspection or armory)
Oh?
Where does it add to the reward part?
Jewelries are invisible in most games so we are use to that. And certainly because it’s realistic and logical as jewelries are small. Also jewelries doesn’t change your mobility.
Personally I would prefer hidden level and recognizable armor + weapons. Or at least categories of armors (heavy, medium, light) and weapons (axe, sword, hammer etc.).
Which means we should expect Illusions to be common. "Realistic" is irrelevant when it comes to appearance.
Ignore this.
Your enemy archetype icon is easily recognised in that game. In a split of a second, even before they use any skills.
I much preffered the old sttuff, of looking at your enemies appearance and knowing what he was.
But again, things have changed in videogames business models and products.
But keep in mind that the actual Raistlin's world was based on GAME RULES; Wizards couldn't wear armor tougher than velvet robes.
SS's world is one that doesn't depend solely on magic moons and spell-casters by the rules of magical moons; Perhaps the standard that some of us have previosuly judged magical "rules" by is irrelevant and out-dated, by modern standards?
As far as cosmetic gear goes? Just accept it for what it is. Yours truly will be COMING TO Verrra as a member of the upper-Class; Maybe YOU are a scrub who can't get no love - BUT, *I'm* a perons of degree - with a PEDEGREE - of whom most of life is behind him?; My glory days might have been High School/College on Sanctus, wherein a non-magical world has the *most* magic, that life had to offer?
How can you argue that a 40-something on Sanctus *SHOULDN'T* look like a socially-advanced person, upon the moment they come to Verra?
For small scale, this is true.
It's larger scale (anything more than 8 players, really) where this method starts to become cumbersome.
In this case, a video game being a virtual world, it's all illusion and appearance, and nothing is relevant. But rather than imagining ourselves evolving in nothingness, we can take AOC's parallel reality into consideration and present our point of view.
Pfff.... always arguing. Not only the icons are instantly visible, but on large scale, the players know each other by name, let alone class.
Icons are only visible when you have someone targeted.
With 10k players on a server, you won't know everyone. You are thinking of L2 (probably private servers) with a few hundred players.
The system Ashes is looking at is exactly the same as the system Archeage had. The problems I am talking about were problems in that game.
i played on rpg club gracia final, a p. server with 15000 players in L2, its true that i didnt know everyones name, but most people were irrelevant, you would just kill them. you would learn the cp, not individual players.
you were either in ooc or the russian ally (forgot the name but leader was called pinky i think) and if you not, you basically didnt matter. we all had macros with their doombringer's names and healers. im talking about 300vs300 and 500 vs 500 fights. you learned the name of certain people and for the rest you would just know what they were by just looking at them. you couldnt even tell who was what by clicking them, you had to actually look at them and know.
also, as you level up, you will be running into the same people over and over at different spots, you will eventually learn their names and their class and gear, etc.
if you have beef with another node or guild, you will also learn their names, their class, etc. and usually just the ones that either give you trouble in pvp, or die really fast / are so bad its funny T_T people who are at the other side of the map who have no beef with you, might as well not even exist. so the 10k players gets reduced to a few hundred.
I am thinking of every mmo with large scale pvp
The 'Reward' part is the loot you get from the kill. That's why I said it added to the 'Risk' part, and didn't say it added to the 'Reward' part.
If you've already calculated that you're going to win before you've started the match, then that's not Risk. That's Calculation. The game hasn't been sold as 'Calculation vs Reward'.
Knowing too much about an opponent just makes the process too simple. Working out info about the character from subtle nuances in how they move and react with the world around them, and working out resistances from your own damage scores and reacting to that yourself, and always having that possibility in the background that you may lose - that's much more interesting than simply sitting in sneak, looking at a list of stats, and going "Nope" .... "Nope" .... "Yep" .... "Nope" ....
I'd much rather take an interesting experience over a hand-holding Nope-Yep game.
I do not miss the times -at all- when you were stuck with the look of often awful over-the-top gear.
I am all for putting some restrictions like "heavy armor", "medium armor", "light armor" etc, but I do not care if they don't do that. Good PvP players will read classes easily by their abilities either way.
Why would they do so?
- During the Alpha 2 the cosmetic system should be in place so that we can see how well the indicators for armor work. This is - for now - the way to mitigate the fact, that a player could disguise their armor type intentionally
- The alternative to disable skins would be financially VERY significant. Therefore IF it turns out during the A2 that it is necessary to abandon the skin system (as unlikely as it may be) it would be better to do so after they generated some hype and with it additional income which they could in turn use to pay out the customers who lost their skins and costumes.
- During Alpha 2 they have the chance to familiarize players with potential solutions to the question "What gear is this one wearing?" and find one that a lot of us sceptics will agree with. Addtitionally they can still adjust the system which might gain them more approval except from the crowd who is not strictly against all sorts of cosmetics. Maybe they conclude that there could be servers where cosmetics are only visible to the one wearing them - who knows.
Suffice to say: The cosmetic system and gear indicator, IMO are more subject to change than many others and therefore as much as I also dislike the extent to which current cosmetics could deceive in PvP, I am optimistic that there will be an acceptable solution to this during A2
What do you mean excatly ?
I agree that is not the most important thing but I could tell the same about most of current topics on the forum.
A simple button to deactivate transmog seems to be the best solution. Those who want to look like a mage, a warrior or a camel are free to do so. Those who want to know the true appearance of other players can do so.
That way, everyone's happy.
Honestly this would be the best solution. Either that or make cosmetics be usable when you reach max lvl. Or do both lol
I think you misunderstood what I was trying to say, which is that the people in the forums in a large number are concerned about the current skin & cosmetics policy or more than just concerned. Meaning I think people are very much aware that this could become a huge issue for PvP in particular^^
And like I said - it would probably be okay if people were the only ones to see their cosmetics.
Other options would be:
During sieges there are no cosmetics.
If one turns red or purple cosmetics become deactivated for others (they can see your real armor)
The minimum requirement in my opinion is this: the indicator for what the actual armor is has to be something very clear, that has to be visible on the character, not just in the UI.
Now I get you means now. Yes agree 100%
Honestly this. Doesn't matter to me at all what you see me like.
As the game goes on chances are my appearance for my own use will be modded anyway to support my RP character development, because looks matter a lot for a character, and you wont see any of what I see
Here I don't get you, because your RP char is already the orignal one withotu cosmetics. Cosmetics is kind of RP in the RP. No ?
Also, I get the feeling from reading comments from some people that they expect RPers to be in character 100% of the time, which maybe a portion of them do, but I dont. I only RP with a handful of people at a time in story campaigns of our own making. I very rarely do walk up open world spontaneous RP, can be fun, and many people like that, but its my character, my story, I do what I want.
When I pvp, I pvp
When I pve grind, I pve grind
When I want to RP, I RP
And in each case, I want to look like however I want to look like, and quite honestly that doesnt have to be the concern of anyone else if they dont want it to be.
I've used mods for my own look and even spell animations in games for years, and the only people I am concerned with seeing me how I see myself, are the people I play with. The same will hold true with cosmetics in ashes, which I will use until a stable moding community grows here. (To be fair, the spell effects I've seen from Intrepid in these monthly showcases are pretty badass, I doubt I will want to mod them)
However I picture my character in whatever he is doing, is how I will make him look.
I could care less how someone else sees me if they dont want to see what I see.