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📝Dev Discussion #56 - Basic Attacks in Combat Rotations ⚔

VaknarVaknar Moderator, Member, Staff
edited November 2023 in General Discussion
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Glorious Ashes Community,

Dev Discussions are YOUR chance to participate in a conversation about topics that our design team is looking for feedback on. This is an opportunity to have your feedback impact the direction of Ashes of Creation.

Dev Discussion - Basic Attacks in Combat Rotations

How important is it for you to have basic attacks be a part of your combat rotation? Do you enjoy using other skills and abilities in between auto-attacks, or are you having the most fun when basic attacks are less important to how much damage you’re doing?


Here are a few additional discussion starters which may help you provide feedback on this topic. Please don’t feel limited by these, and give us any feedback you’d like on this topic:
  • What role and function have basic attacks or auto-attacks had in previous MMORPGs you’ve played?
  • What role do you feel basic attacks and auto-attacks should play in MMORPG combat?
  • Do you want your rotation to be mostly abilities, or do you want to have auto-attacks be important in your rotation?
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Comments

  • In the update video you also asked about basic attacks, I would just like to share my 2 cents about that.
    It depends on what you are going for, If ability cooldowns are long then basic attacks should be varied, impactful, and look good visually. If you are going for shorter cooldowns and more ability spam then basic attacks are totally fine being meh.

    - Myself I prefer when basic attacks are more meaningful. I feel like the meta of having basic attacks be either 1 same attack or 3 same attacks over and over again is a bit stale. Maybe this could be changed up by introducing multiple animations for the same sort of "basic attack" and have them play randomly?

    - I like not so much longer cooldowns on my abilities but maybe having to juggle a casting resource, so I need to decide when best to use my skills as opposed to just spamming my skills off cooldown. (see gw1 as prime example)

    - In my opinion basic attacks let your main hand weapon shine. So let us feel happy to let us use our super uber weapons that we find. (maybe this is just a weird take from a weird man though)
  • chaoko954chaoko954 Member, Alpha One
    edited October 2023
    As a healer, auto-attack has never been a focus for me. Especially in MMO's. Having mostly played Wow and FFXIV, Having to deal with auto attacks is also like the very last piece of the pie. You make sure your stats that influence your auto attack are where they need to be, and once your rotation is rock solid, you spend that extra practice standing closer to a boss for that extra 2% DPS, or positioning yourself better in arenas.
    Having a basic attack seems like the way to go. You have a fallback if you messed up your rotation, it's optional, but it's there.

    What role does auto-attack play?
    For me it is the after thought. The filler. The damage I can do when I want to be lazy with my rotation. Sometime it helps as an icing on the cake DPS or enforces better positioning, but for the most part, I am not a big fan. As far as how it should work, it's an AUTO attack. There is not a whole lot it could do otherwise. It's damage that goes out automatically based on your lock-on/mouse focus / target. You can influence it by messing with your stats, but otherwise it's just the background damage. Maybe it helps with balancing classes?

    Basic attack role?
    Basic attacks I like much more! If for some reason you need to weave in a basic attack to your rotation you have the option to. Basic attacks could be designed in different ways like a 1,2,3 combo for example. Unlike auto-attacks, it gives the player agency in making this attack. How should it work? I'm no game designer, but a basic attack should probably always be available. Probably on a cool down?

    Auto-attacks and my rotation
    When I play MMOs I usually prefer to focus on my rotation and only care about auto attacks once I've mastered my rotation and it's more of a reward for correct positioning from my experience then anything else.
    As a healer I also use decision based rotations and can normally only sneak in DPS once my healer responsibilities are filled.

    Auto-attacks have their uses, but they don't need to be baked into every class. Maybe only the rogue gets an auto attack and you have to multiclass into it to get auto attack on your other class? It has uses when considering damage output and class balancing. But at the end of the day I like the Idea of basic attacks more. Something that I can ignore once I have my rotation up and running, or maybe the basic attack evolves or changes and becomes part of my core rotation? But! This is all speculation. I'd love to actually do some real testing on what you decide to implement and make a real call at that time. #AlphaTwo2024
  • I liked the previous plan Steven outlined. Where weapon attacks cause various procs depending on the stage the weapon combo is in. Then you can make a build around fishing for a specific proc to enhance your skills. The amount you need to use a basic attack would vary based on your build and your team comp. I feel this would bring the most variety and skill cap to the game.

    As a side note the current weapon attacks that have been shown are way too fast. They are so fast at a baseline that it seems to homogenize weapon types instead of letting them naturally have advantages and disadvantages for speed vs animation vs damage. Varying attack speeds would also allow a build that wants to fish for procs to build attack speed with a slower weapon and really feel the impact of that choice. I want stats to feel impactful so going from a .25 attacks per second to a .22 with attack speed will barely be noticeable. But going from .75 to .50 would really be noticeable in general play. This would also help players really feel the levels they gain instead of a basic attack feeling the same at level 1 as it does at 50.

    In many other games the basic attacks are automatic and I feel like this does not really add anything to the game. If you are going to go that route just make it all skills based instead.

    On another note A missed basic attack should cost a resource. I do not want to see everyone just spamming a hip fired bow attack at a choke point because there is no downside to doing so. Everyone can use a ranged weapon so spam would be expected of you in large group pvp.
  • gembojgemboj Member, Explorer, Kickstarter
    edited October 2023
    I have a pretty unpopular opinion - I'm not a fan of "rotation" at all. Having multiple skills just to use them mindlessly one by one, always in the same order doesn't enrich the gameplay. It looks nice to have a dozen of skills at your disposal, but when most of them are simple damage skills that you just throw into your rotation it might as well just be a single skill.

    Having rotations usually encourages devs to just put more skills in place that are mostly placeholders for your rotation instead of designing skills that actually matter.

    As such, I prefer to have less skills on my hotbar, but each having a specific usecase that I need to quickly (during the heat of the moment) decide whether it will be beneficial for me to use while at the same time risking to put skill on CD in case the opportunity wasn't that good after all == risk vs reward.

    Basic attacks are paramout for me to keep the number of skills to minimal - why design a skill that will just be a part of a damage rotation, when you can use basic attack.
  • MybroViajeroMybroViajero Member
    edited October 2023
    1.-How important is it for you to have basic attacks be a part of your combat rotation?


    It depends a lot on the classes/subclasses/character/archetype being used.

    A healer's basicattack is not the same as a warrior's, so I think that a warrior's basicattack will have more relevance in his rotation/combos than a healer's basicattack.

    For me the most correct answer to this question would be : If the basicattacks have any relevance in the combo/rotation of the characters depending on the skills they have.


    For example, if a healer can use an ability where his basicattacks heal so that he can heal faster, then the healer's basicattacks have much more importance.
    In the same way if a rogue is better off using skills that do more damage than basicattacks then autoattacks lose relevance in their rotation/combo.


    I think that's the answer, it depends on the importance that each class/character/subclass/archetype gives to their autoattacks depending on the importance of their combos/rotations/skills on it and their basicattacks.

    2.-Do you enjoy using other skills and abilities in between basicattacks, or are you having the most fun when basic attacks are less important to how much damage you’re doing?


    Much depends on the rotations that the classes/subclasses/archetypes will have.

    If to be able to combine a rotation/combo I need to have 1 or 2 seconds of basicattacks to be able to chain 2 skills in the form of a combo, for example :

    Ability X + basicattack 1 = Generate the necessary space and time to be able to use Ability Y.
    Ability X + basicattack 1 + Ability Y + basicattack 2 = Rotation/combo 1

    So I think it is correct to think that basicattacks are needed between skills to chain combos or vice versa.

    In fact I would even find it odd that only basic attacks are the biggest damage trigger unless you are a 100% warrior dps which even they need buffs and abilities to boost their basic attacks.

    3.-What role and function have basic attacks or auto-attacks had in previous MMORPGs you’ve played?

    Basic roles, simply a continuation, nothing out of the ordinary.

    4.-What role do you feel basic attacks and auto-attacks should play in MMORPG combat?

    For me it should have more importance IF and WHEN the character/classes/subclass/archetype has the need to give it that importance.

    As I said before, basic attacks are dependent on how the character is designed so that's where the issue lies, how the character is will tell me the importance of his basic-attack, HOWEVER I would like to see some different importance given to auto-attacks within the AoC world, for example as possible triggers for blocking, as possible triggers for COUNTER ATTACKS , as possible triggers for combo formation, as possible triggers for combo combinations with other characters/classes/subclass/archetype.

    A basic attack should not always be considered something simple if it can trigger other more important things with its simplicity.

    5.- Do you want your rotation to be mostly abilities, or do you want to have auto-attacks be important in your rotation?

    It depends a lot on the characters/classes/subclasses/archetypes, BUT it would be very interesting to see that in AoC many characters have as a premise the use of autoattacks to make all kinds of combinations of skills, combos, synergies with other characters/classes/subclasses/archetypes.

    https://youtu.be/VHY6dXAlrII?si=LwkhFBuGBKEIahbA&t=1
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9PYfepYi1tg
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GIt1jjgGdk8


    Now there is something that awakened my intrigue.

    I think all these questions would be better answered if we knew more about the "hybrid" combat style of AoC , because that way we would have more notion of the importance of basic attacks vs skills vs skills+basic attacks .

    In fact, it is well known that AoC is more predisposed to being a cooperative MMORPG where the dependence of skills on other characters/classes/subclasses/archeotypes is very marked, therefore I do not imagine AoC being very basic attack or autoattack dependent like others. Video games or MMORPGS like BDO or TERA.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-BX0Ds8lH5o
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wq_d37SxvnM

    What I can imagine is that AoC uses his basic attacks as triggers for more complicated combos or synergies of his own abilities or with other players.

    Since as I said before, it is not the same to see the basic attack of a full dps warrior with a healer, one looks more explosive and fast and the other more monotonous and boring, BUT that is where the combo trigger comes in, what happens If the healer's basic attacks are intended to trigger a combo that helps in a TF? Or what happens if the healer's boring and monotonous basic attack is combined with a faster healing ability in the form of a basic attack? .

    Those things would break the monotony of the boring basic attack of some
    characters /classes/subclasses/archeotypes.
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  • EathanEathan Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    I like when basic attacks are a part of my rotation. I do prefer that most of my dps comes from my abilities, but I believe it is important to allow a basic attack or two in between skills or while waiting for cooldowns. I have played games before where the difference in high tier players and people getting by is having the knowledge to know when to weave a basic attack into the mix. I want the damage of a basic attack to be effective, but not viable enough to carry your gameplay. Unless of course you have a build which relies on buffing your basic attacks. In the event basic attacks are given the strength to be anymore than just a slight damage increase on a parse I would like them to take more skill to land that just smashing a button.
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  • HylmewHylmew Member
    edited October 2023
    For context, this is the point of view of a melee character player.

    I think that basic attacks should be an important part of the combat system, as in you should wait for the right moment to use your abilities. That'd be how you express your skill. It obviously depends on the amount of abilities you have, their cooldowns, and how basic attacks actually feel though.

    When playing an action combat game, like New World, basic attacks feel great and impactful, and it doesn't bother me if they're the main part of the combat. However, in tab-target combat like in WoW, looking at your character just using auto attacks (thinking in early levels there) doesn't feel good at all, and in that situation, I'd prefer it if abilities are the main part of the combat and basic attacks rarely need to be used.

    So it all depends on the combat mode and how basic attacks feel. It also depends if basic attacks are automatic (eg. you right click and your character attacks) or if they are triggered by the player (eg. left click is a light attack, right click an heavy one).

    Personally, my favorite kind of combat is action combat, so that means I also love using basic attacks and blocking, and using abilities when necessary. But keep in mind this is when I play assassin/duelists/general melee fighter characters. If I play a ranged mage, basic attacks probably won't feel as good, and I'll most likely prefer using abilities way more.

    This is actually a hard question to answer because it depends on a lot of variables, an important one being animations.
  • Gaul_Gaul_ Member
    edited October 2023
    The basic attack passive weapon trees sound like a great way to customize your build further. However, basic attacks themselves are not engaging for everyone. The benefit of customizing your weapon swings in order to initiate certain procs is offset by the hassle of managing basic attacks manually.

    I propose Intrepid allows players to choose either auto-attacks or manually controlled basic attacks with a simple toggle.

    The default option would be for the player to have auto-attacks that initiate on the first basic attack swing or when a damaging active ability is used. This would allow the player to sacrifice deeper control of their weapon and focus more on abilities. Since the players have a choice between investing in active and passive skills, it makes sense that a player who is not invested in their weapon tree would be uninterested in managing each weapon attack.

    The other option would be for the player to control each basic attack separately, optimizing weapon cone placement and weapon swing timing for a deeper control.

    Giving players this choice would be similar to the action camera toggle. It allows the player to dictate their controls without giving a massive benefit to either option. Some players may even swap between the two choices on the fly.

    Example:
    A fighter with a great sword that is heavily invested into weapon passives would be highly motivated to manually control weapon swings since they are so important.

    On the other hand, a mage with a wand that didn't invest any points into the wand passive tree would probably prefer to just have auto-attacks.
  • SiddiqueSiddique Member
    edited October 2023
    I think rotation makes a game fast paced and enjoyable. The idea of a skill per second with the ability to weave your basic attacks in would be something that would make the combat enjoyable.

    I dont like the idea of auto attacks if its what i think it is. I want to be able to have full control and learn the rotations, practice them and be able to enjoy a fast paced combat once they become muscle memory.

    P.s., with all its faults, I find Elder Scroll Online's combat system to be very engaging and fun. If AoC is anything like that, itll already be a win, imo of course.
  • WoW's combat isn't that bad. FFXIV tried to innovate combat and it backfired. They remade it like WoW and it became super popular.

    I don't think ashes needs to improve/innovate on everything, and while systems are connected/influence each other, combat is one of the most standalone. This might be one of the systems that y'all just copy popular methods and call it a day.

    Question to the community is then: "What are the AoC systems that would REQUIRE an update or improvement to combat?"
    The best part about mmos is the friends you make along the way.
  • AzheraeAzherae Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    I enjoy games where basic attacks are literally required.

    Where abilities play off them, the timings and synergies they create through the effects they deliver, or if they build something like the once-mentioned Weapon Focus Gauge (back when it was mentioned, it seemed like the Tactical Point Gauge for old FinalFantasyMMO players, though it was removed in ShadowBringers for FF14) that is then spent to do something else.

    This, for me, allows skills to be more powerful, impactful, and dynamic, to boost the cooperation between players, and to give people some time to think about timings and adaptations in combat, while helping to balance the flow to make player combat and mob combat more similar (since most games have 'autoattack' for mobs).

    I also prefer them because they make the moment-to-moment focus and targeting of any opponent, more important, and can help cut down on the 'stacking big abilities for quick TTK' that is so often a source of 'emptiness' in combat for me. At least when there are proper basic attacks involved, being defeated by someone stronger or better geared feels 'realistic' in some ways, but a very low reliance on them usually just becomes '5+ enemy players use a pile of abilities and you have insufficient time to react in a way that matters', for me.

    I don't mind when some classes require them more than others, though. This is also a form of balance, to me. Mana-hungry classes don't need to rely too much on them, I think, nor is support a situation I generally expect players to be using them for damage.

    But in both those cases, there's a tradeoff to 'being the type that doesn't use them', namely, not getting the consistent, 'free' damage, and more importantly, any on-hit effects, that come with them.

    I don't consider ranged ones to be a problem, exactly, but in games where you can move at the same speed while using ranged ones, I generally prefer they are very weak. In games where movement isn't very important, then I prefer a resource of some kind to be the limiter on how powerful they are, but that's a balance thing that I generally just trust to the developer (i.e. I don't have preference, whatever they do within the game's overall goal is what I want).

    Without the 'Buildup of basic attacks causing something bigger' though, I have less interest, and without basic attacks being important in general, I have no interest at all.
    Sorry, my native language is Erlang.
    
  • HillefuegoHillefuego Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    What role and function have basic attacks or auto-attacks had in previous MMORPGs you’ve played?

    The ones I have most experience with are from WoW and GW2. In WoW the auto-attack function like a filler between abilities, while being a fairly big portion of the damage. There are also a lot of abilities that add an effect to the auto-attacks. This works well because of the amount of abilities in the game.

    In GW2 you have less abilities, but your basic attack has three 'stages'. These can also be automated. The basic attack becomes more 'meaningful' in a small toolkit, but this feels more like a necessity in the design rather than something that was added to make the game more fun.


    What role do you feel basic attacks and auto-attacks should play in MMORPG combat?

    The worst thing is having to spam 1 button a lot. Especially if that's all you need to kill enemies (hi new world). The more auto-attacks/basic attack spam can replace interactive combat, they will and combat will start feeling boring really fast.

    I think WoW nailed it the first time (minus the melee range leeway, we don't need that anymore). But it just works. Have basic attacks as auto-attack, but you need abilities to actually kill something. Either by increasing damage on auto-attacks (increased speed, damage effects, next auto-attack crits etc) or, preferably using abilities. Mobs should be strong enough (or have enough control) to force the player to use abilities.

    If I had to choose, I'd rather have no auto-attacks/basic attack at all than the basic attack being something you just spam a lot of the time.

    Just to clarify, I don't want a copy of WoW combat. I just think its a great base to work from.


    Do you want your rotation to be mostly abilities, or do you want to have auto-attacks be important in your rotation?

    I want management of ability cooldowns and resources to determine my performance. For a middleground, because I do see a reason for auto-attacks to be important in the rotation (accessibility for new players) , there could be a way to make it so that auto-attacking does fair damage. By certain augments for example. However I don't think they should ever trump damage from someone carefully picking/timing their abilities.
  • More like an accordion playing Toccato and Fugue in D Minor.

    So a varying pace, with bursts of rapid button presses separated by some slower interludes.

    Honestly, what I am looking for is sustainability, something I can do for hours on end with my aging, arthritis ridden hands. What I am hoping for is that there are some slower combat builds that do not involve maintaining a constant rapid series of movements and button presses.

    I would not want this at the expense of others who want a faster paced, more dynamic combat system.

    I am just hoping there's room for an old man like me.
  • I feel like an auto attack is fine ..Then weaving skills in by need... not simply a mindless rotation... the weaving of skills should create different effects depending on what is used... I like the idea of the basic attack having a considerable affect on damage ...I meen it is a weapon...it should do damage
    . And a better weapon ...well...better damage... what spells u use should be situational decisions.. not just a mindless rotation.. having to repeatedly click a basic attack compared to an auto attack seems.. tiering , redundant , and unnecessary..
  • What role and function have basic attacks or auto-attacks had in previous MMORPGs you’ve played?

    In the past, basic attacks have usually been supplemental to the damage dealt, in combat. I feel they provide a base-line for the DPS that's done. In the most-useful situations? They've been used to restore your combat-action points.


    What role do you feel basic attacks and auto-attacks should play in MMORPG combat?

    Auto-attacks might not be needed, at all. I did enjoy that SWTOR doesn't feature them. Typically, basic attacks should really be used either to restore action points, or while waiting for actions points to restore.


    Do you want your rotation to be mostly abilities, or do you want to have auto-attacks be important in your rotation?

    Would have to lean in-favor of rotations mostly being the different classes' combat abilities.



  • Banana_BreadBanana_Bread Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    I prefer basic attacks that you use as fillers for CDs, but I would also prefer them be something other than tab target. You should be able to left click to swing your weapon as a basic attack and then your CDs should be assigned to your keys.
  • ZettrexZettrex Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    I prefer abilities to be the main combat item where basic attacks operate as the sustain helper and filler attack. Ideally a 80/20 ratio
  • To me this mainly depends on the class. Some will lean towards way less basic attack usage, some will mainly only use them.

    I liked the idea of having passive triggers and combos related to basic attacks for Ashes, so I'd prefer that.
  • LocustLocust Member
    edited October 2023
    I am with Gemboj here. STANDARD rotations are kind of silly. They are just placeholders with animations for another damage attack. I think a basic attack and block is good especially coupled with appropriate timing. For fun though, there should be about 10 other special reason attacks per class. Special attacks being things like cc, dispels, enhances, interrupts, or even specific attacks(like elemental damage maybe?) that have increased damage for specific situations or players. All of these should have multiple roles(damage and cc) or something like that.

    Combat should require allot more than just continuously pressing the same rotation over and over again.

    Thank you,

    Locust
  • I think it also depends on class. Some class should have hard to learn rotations but they should be stronger (ex.: more heal, more dps, better tank) if the rotation is well done and no mistake are made. I really like the GW2 rotations skills. I like when there are lots of ways you can do damage. In the end, every class should have advantages and disadvantages in certain situation (ex.: ranger must stay still if they want to use a set of combo skills to do lots of damage, so it's not the most optimal build for situation where he has to dodge often or has to run there and there)

    Example, you can play power DPS (this is pure DPS) or you can play with conditions. Example of conditions can be burning, torment, poison, etc. and each of these conditions that is cast on enemies can be either stacked in intensity or/and stacked in duration.

    What I don't like is when there is not enough skills, so it doesn't take any brain to be a decent PvPer because you don't have to think about which skill you should use in certain situation or not. Skill cooldowns are very important so we don't just smash every skill brain dead.

    I believe every class should have at least one skill that heals, some skills that are crowd control and some that are stun breaks. Of course, some classes should be better than others in different situation. (Ex.: Bard should have more stun break skills and rangers should have more crowd control skills)

    I resumed GW2 combat above and this is what I like the most out of every MMO I played.
  • 1. It was mostly a boring filler that that had no combos attached to it. In GW2 you have no mana or other energy
    2. Depends on a class imo. My opinion is that every type class should have representative that relies on basic attacks. For example:
    - a magic class that relies on stacks of elemental dmg done by a weapon. Not necessarily a ranged one. Something like a high mobility spellsword that uses fast in and out tactics and burst after enough elemental stacks are on the target. Like i dunno, do 5-10 elemental dmg debuf that stacks and do a spell that actives that burst from distance-A medium armor user with dagger. Then question emerges-Why wouldnt you just use wand? Maybe make daggers should be fastest weapon in the game, so the stacking is faster.
    Maybe you could on top of it add range to your melee attack with added magic damage to auto-attack. If you need a reference for that, check out Ao Kuang abilities in a game called Smite. Perfect blend of auto-attack and spells.

    To contrast that, have a mage type of class that barely uses any weapons and relies on its spell. Pure spellcaster.

    - For rogues, first thing that came to my mind is stacking poisons. Maybe add a spell that compliments regular attacks, like burst of speed for basic attack or something. Basic bow attacks, in an action camera, could be used as something that can activate mechanisms that open new areas in the dungeons like in God of War.
    You could utilize basic attacks and action camera when specific area of the big bosses should be shot at...
    Like an eye of a cyclops. Or when the tail of dragon should be chopped off. Check out Monster Hunter for that.
    You could add toggleable auto-cast spells that compliment auto-attacking like Frost arrows in Dota 2. Something that drains small amount of mana every time you are shooting/attacking, but leaving it too much can drain mage too quickly. For example, you don't leave Frost Arrows on auto the whole time in Dota because it drains your mana rapidly. Especially if you have something that gives you haste.
    This opened a whole new can of worms regarding ammo or lack of it lol...

    -For Warriors, I don't really know. In some other games I played, you used basic attacks when you are out of rage. Maybe stamina should be your rage in this game. Honestly, I think you need a 3th resource ASAP.

    First thing I can think of what when asked what are basic weapon attack used is energy resource management (mana, rage, stamina etc).

    So, imo you should use that vast number of classes you have and have at least 5 archetype combinations that rely on basic attack more than other classes and design spells that are bridge between basic attacking and spellcasting to encourage use of regular attack (Spells that haste basic attacks, Spells that activate on basic hit, spells that activate on passive block, basic attack augment etc).Option for you to focus more on basic attacks would be a nice. Maybe adding different styles, more complicated combo unlocks in talent trees could work. Adding an option to spec into that or maybe even adding it with another talent could be a good way to resolve that.
    Like for example Fighter+Bard=Bladedancer augments...

    Warrior's Whirlwind augment being a True Damage now and then under it written in green [Unlocks Bladedancer fight style]. Now all of your basic attacks do damage in arc with completely new animation of attacking, which you can toggle on and off and even see explanation for it how to do combos with it in specific menu dedicated for that. Like ''I'' is inventory and ''C'' are Combat Arts like in Sekiro.

    Imagine duelist with a rapier style fighting. It would be perfect!
    Historical European martial arts (HEMA) could help you with that if you decide to go that route.




  • Forgot to mention complete opposite for rogue who is not focusing on basic attacks. Someone who relies on a stealth burst and going in and out of combat to refresh the said stealth.
  • I find games where each attack has a purpose much more enjoyable than simply pressing the same keys in a sequence over and over for every battle. I find it hard to enjoy other MMO games where each class is expected to do a single specific rotation with no place for anything to mix it up. From a melee perspective, I'd rather have the basic attacks be meaningful and the main way of damage, with skills used at the right moment less often.
  • DisobedientDisobedient Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    edited October 2023
    I'll give two examples, one positive experience, and one negative:

    1. Perfect World. The Assassin class in there used dual daggers and had a pretty strong basic attack (as long as you got high attack speed) he would swing his daggers extremely fast, and it was fun because they had a special ability where you could increase your attack speed and attack power exponentially for a short period of time (maybe 5 seconds) and that added to his kit. So the play was, go invisible, sneak to the enemy Cleric, use special ability (atk speed + power increase), then auto attack, and it would just absolutely shred the cleric in like 2-3 seconds. If they don't react fast enough they're done for. I felt extremely powerful, but the CD for the special ability was long, very long. So it was all about capitalizing on the perfect time to use it, and coordinating with my party to engage the enemy squad while their Cleric was reviving. Very fun gameplay, and only the Assassin used auto attack at all in that game, not that others couldn't but, it wasn't strong on anyone else.

    2. New World. I probably don't need to talk much about this, but I'm certainly not a fan of basic attack being a requirement in my MMORPGS. The skills get modified to such a little degree, it's insulting. Not to mention, we only have 6 abilities at our disposal, 3 from each weapon, basically forcing everyone to use basic attacks after all abilities are on CD... I hate this style of gameplay, kills my immersion.

    Final Thoughts: The aspect I love most about games is combat, that's what keeps me in a game. The feeling of mastering abilities that aren't found in the real world, is intoxicating to me. Watching as a spell goes from a tiny slow-moving fireball, to maybe a large fireball that teleports to the target and explodes, there is dopamine in that. It's hard to bring that same level of excitement or anticipation for an upgrade, to something like basic attacks, unless it's also upgradeable, in which case then it's sounds cool, even if it's just upgrading the attack speed of it.
  • LinikerLiniker Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Fast paced combat with a longer TTK, that allows for counter play and requires the use of both basic attacks to proc weapon passives as well as the correct use of your rotation

    Don't like skill rotation based combat like FF14 and I have a strong feeling based on my community and overall feedback from other games/communities that a slow paced combat based on rotations and long cooldowns would lead to mass criticism like Throne and Liberty recently had,

    For a good modern hybrid combat focus on going down the guild wars 2 or sword of legends online hybrid implementation where mobility and fast paced combos is required and people can have multiple builds that takes practice to master

    Basic attacks should not be just a filler to get mana, they should be an integral component of combat, required for using procs and min maxing your efficiency and combo'ing with your active skills.

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  • I have changed my opinion like 5 times while reading the comments from the community. I think it's very hard to know what we want without testing it. Anyway, I'll give you my opinion.

    For me it doesn't matter at all if it's auto-attack or basic attack but in the second case I would like to be something that is not binded to a key, I think it's better to have it as left-click in the mouse (because it can be something that you want to spam in some scenarios). And I agree that a "combo-like" basic attack is the way to go.

    Then, regarding the skills, I would like them to be used in the right moment, not as a rotation that you need to loop again and again. We should have combos that chain more than one skill in order to burst an enemy but then the whole combo should be in CD and you need to use another skills or basic attacks waiting for it to be available again.

    This will imply that when using skills you need to think in what's going to happen next. And if you use them in a bad moment then you will pay the price.

    Basic (or auto) attacks should be used meanwhile you wait CDs, mana to be recharged or to recover action points. Anyway I like the idea to have builds based on basic attacks and procs as well. A basic attack that has a % to start a combo that should be follwed by different skills can make it very funny.

    I want to have basic attacks but a lof of skill choices to do in the right moments, skills that can increase damage or change "X" number of basic attacks can as well be a good choice.

    I hope that this could help a bit, thank you so much and see you in A2 2024!!
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  • What role do you feel basic attacks and auto-attacks should play in MMORPG combat?
    - I see basic attacks and auto-attacks as two separate things. Auto-attacks work great with tab-target. You select your target, press a button, and you start auto-attacking. Basic attacks are done manually. I like the idea of basic attacks having some importance, but they should always be secondary to skills. Perhaps there are combos of different kinds of basic attacks (weaving certain combinations of light/heavy attacks produces different effects depending on the weapon you’re using). If a basic attack has no function other than the same attack with varying animations, then just keep it as an auto-attack. If the plan is for basic attacks to have added effects, then it should be manual.

    Do you want your rotation to be mostly abilities, or do you want to have auto-attacks be important in your rotation?
    - I see basic attacks as filler in a rotation. They can add extra damage when weaving them between skills, but they aren’t necessary. I don’t want combat where I use a three-skill combo, and then have to wait 10 seconds for the skills to reset before I do it again, forcing me to just spam basic attacks. I want attack patterns where I’m consistently using skills, and only stopping when mana becomes an issue. It’s far more engaging to have low-CD skills than high-CD skills.
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  • MayhemMayhem Member, Intrepid Pack, Alpha One
    Personally like using auto attacks between skills, sometimes it gives me a chance to think what to do next.

    Hold down mouse button for auto attacks, clicking constantly is bad.
    Ideally hold down mouse button for auto attacks, then weave skills between the auto attack combos
    Only way to reset weapon combo = let go of mouse button (letting go of mouse would not cancel animation, but reset the combo)

    As an example, auto 1+2 fast single target attacks, auto 3 big aoe spin, auto 4 big single target hit
    skill 1 = next weapon attack inflicts bleed dot to target/s
    skill 2 = single target stun

    hold down mouse button -> auto 1+2 -> press skill 1 after auto 2 animation but before auto 3 animation starts -> auto 3 doing big aoe + bleed dot to all -> press skill 2 after auto 3 animation but before auto 4 animation starts -> stun target -> auto 4. Would like to see something like this.

    Also for aoe scenario i would hold down mouse button until auto 1-3 and auto 3 animation was close to ending, let go of mouse button and start holding down mouse button again so it would reset my auto attack combo. This way you would not have to wait and do the whole 1-4 combo.
  • ZekethephoenixZekethephoenix Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
      What role and function have basic attacks or auto-attacks had in previous MMORPGs you’ve played?
      Most Auto-attacks have been in the same function as a game like WoW or FFXIV. It feels like boring filler that is only there to protect from short disconnects.
      What role do you feel basic attacks and auto-attacks should play in MMORPG combat?
      I feel like my preferred use for them is as a no cost short cooldown builder ability to enable you to recover mana/health, or enable other abilities and procs.
      Do you want your rotation to be mostly abilities, or do you want to have auto-attacks be important in your rotation?

      I want my rotation to be about 85/15 hotkey ability/basic/auto-attack.

      PS: My 2 favorite MMO combat designs are Wildstar and Black Desert.
    • SparkiSparki Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
      I find abillity rotations not very fun.
      You rather have the feeling that you have to have studied to be able to participate in PvP, for example. And that is no fun... Then rather abillitys that stand for themselves.

      You come online after work in Ashes of Creation to have fun together with the guild. Maybe also to tackle one or the other project, like raids, dungeons, or one of the many PvP possibilities. You don't have the time to study the rotation.
      Gaming with passion
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