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The perfect arena system
Marzzo
Member, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One
In this post I will share my view on how a perfect arena system for me would look like. I would also appreciate to hear about your thoughts on arenas. My goal with this post is to shed light on different ideas and perspectives on arenas. Hopefully this will lead to valuable feedback for Intrepid Studios.
Background
While most MMORPG fans know about arenas, it’s usually not the most popular content in any MMORPG. Nonetheless, there are always dedicated communities passionate about this specific content. There is something magical about practicing your class, and mastering it, in small scale combat. There is a beauty and detail in small group combat that just can’t be seen in large group battles.
Defining arena
An arena is an enclosed zone designed for combat.
The purpose of instanced combat
In contrast to other forms of PvP, arenas offer a curated experience. Since they are instanced, they offer a controlled environment for combat. Arenas also offer the possibility of matchmaking, giving players worthy opponents. Arenas are usually instanced to minimize latency and outside distractions.
Thread goal
The goal of this post is to expand on an older thread:
https://forums.ashesofcreation.com/discussion/44487/why-not-offer-2v2-arenas/p1
That thread argued for including 2v2 arenas in AoC. This thread should instead be a discussion on what we would like arenas to be in AoC.
Some points of discussion everyone can contribute to could be:
• Do we want open world arenas, instanced arenas, or both?
• Should there be PVE arenas, separate from dungeons? If so, how?
• Should arenas have a rating/matchmaking system?
• What arena brackets should there be in AoC (2v2, 3v3, 5v5, 8v8)?
• Is there something regarding arenas we should stay away from?
• Should arenas award cosmetics or stat-rewards, or a combination of them?
• Should there be a “solo queue” style arena? Why? Why not?
About 1v1 arenas
I believe 1v1 instanced arenas should be skipped. Instead, offering dedicated dueling areas is a better approach. A dedicated dueling area can be implemented in a military node. This will create a social hub for PvP players and a natural gathering place for people interested in dueling. A well-made dueling area will offer players a gathering place to find friends as well as an entertaining spectacle when other players are fighting.
What kind of arenas should Ashes of Creation offer and why?
2v2:
Sometimes you just want to log in, talk with a single friend on discord, and play some arenas. 2v2 is a lot easier to plan and play than 3v3 and 5v5. 2v2 combat is the simplest form of team multiplayer combat.
2v2 could also be seen as a great gateway before you “graduate” to 3v3 arenas. You practice teamwork and communication with your friend and learn how your class works against and together with other classes.
3v3:
When playing 3v3, the dynamic changes a lot from 2v2. Finding two friends to play with is harder than finding just one. But, the pace and exponential growth of complexity makes it a very interesting bracket. 3v3 is just the right balance of individuality and teamplay. Adding more players has in my opinion not added significant complexity. Instead, it usually diminished individuality.
Tournament mode
An in game instanced tournament mode could be an interesting addition to military nodes. Just how league of legends does it. During weekends you should be able to sign up with your arena team and play a tournament.
A lot of different tournament options could be added. 2v2, 3v3, 1v1 (same class) options for example.
Animal Husbandry related arenas
I believe it would be cool to expand the animal husbandry profession by allowing our beasts and beings to fight each other. Yes, it could be Pokémon inspired.
PVE boss rush arenas
Fighting in a gauntlets of bosses one after the other togheter with my friends has always been a dream of mine. I believe this would work best as 3- or 5-man content. The gauntlet could offer unique bosses handcrafted for the group size and content or remakes of existing bosses. Curated series of bosses could be offered. Sligtly altered and popular mechanics from past bosses could find their place here.
Any successful MMO will eventually have a bunch of popular bosses. It would be a pity to not utilize the designs in a PVE boss rush style arena. I also believe extremely hard, gauntlet style 5-man arenas would also be a very entertaining thing to watch.
Background
While most MMORPG fans know about arenas, it’s usually not the most popular content in any MMORPG. Nonetheless, there are always dedicated communities passionate about this specific content. There is something magical about practicing your class, and mastering it, in small scale combat. There is a beauty and detail in small group combat that just can’t be seen in large group battles.
Defining arena
An arena is an enclosed zone designed for combat.
The purpose of instanced combat
In contrast to other forms of PvP, arenas offer a curated experience. Since they are instanced, they offer a controlled environment for combat. Arenas also offer the possibility of matchmaking, giving players worthy opponents. Arenas are usually instanced to minimize latency and outside distractions.
Thread goal
The goal of this post is to expand on an older thread:
https://forums.ashesofcreation.com/discussion/44487/why-not-offer-2v2-arenas/p1
That thread argued for including 2v2 arenas in AoC. This thread should instead be a discussion on what we would like arenas to be in AoC.
Some points of discussion everyone can contribute to could be:
• Do we want open world arenas, instanced arenas, or both?
• Should there be PVE arenas, separate from dungeons? If so, how?
• Should arenas have a rating/matchmaking system?
• What arena brackets should there be in AoC (2v2, 3v3, 5v5, 8v8)?
• Is there something regarding arenas we should stay away from?
• Should arenas award cosmetics or stat-rewards, or a combination of them?
• Should there be a “solo queue” style arena? Why? Why not?
About 1v1 arenas
I believe 1v1 instanced arenas should be skipped. Instead, offering dedicated dueling areas is a better approach. A dedicated dueling area can be implemented in a military node. This will create a social hub for PvP players and a natural gathering place for people interested in dueling. A well-made dueling area will offer players a gathering place to find friends as well as an entertaining spectacle when other players are fighting.
What kind of arenas should Ashes of Creation offer and why?
2v2:
Sometimes you just want to log in, talk with a single friend on discord, and play some arenas. 2v2 is a lot easier to plan and play than 3v3 and 5v5. 2v2 combat is the simplest form of team multiplayer combat.
2v2 could also be seen as a great gateway before you “graduate” to 3v3 arenas. You practice teamwork and communication with your friend and learn how your class works against and together with other classes.
3v3:
When playing 3v3, the dynamic changes a lot from 2v2. Finding two friends to play with is harder than finding just one. But, the pace and exponential growth of complexity makes it a very interesting bracket. 3v3 is just the right balance of individuality and teamplay. Adding more players has in my opinion not added significant complexity. Instead, it usually diminished individuality.
Tournament mode
An in game instanced tournament mode could be an interesting addition to military nodes. Just how league of legends does it. During weekends you should be able to sign up with your arena team and play a tournament.
A lot of different tournament options could be added. 2v2, 3v3, 1v1 (same class) options for example.
Animal Husbandry related arenas
I believe it would be cool to expand the animal husbandry profession by allowing our beasts and beings to fight each other. Yes, it could be Pokémon inspired.
PVE boss rush arenas
Fighting in a gauntlets of bosses one after the other togheter with my friends has always been a dream of mine. I believe this would work best as 3- or 5-man content. The gauntlet could offer unique bosses handcrafted for the group size and content or remakes of existing bosses. Curated series of bosses could be offered. Sligtly altered and popular mechanics from past bosses could find their place here.
Any successful MMO will eventually have a bunch of popular bosses. It would be a pity to not utilize the designs in a PVE boss rush style arena. I also believe extremely hard, gauntlet style 5-man arenas would also be a very entertaining thing to watch.
2
Comments
they will have different team sizes. I'd prefer if it was 8 vs 8 only
Why not offer other stuff than just 8 vs 8?
steven said the game will be balanced around full party play. pvp wont be balanced around 1v1
so you can have a class that is good in 8v8, but then its shit in anything that isnt 8v8. then you have a godly class in 2v2, it gets nerfed, and it affects party play, pve and other forms of pvp.
or people spending a season leveling and gearingup a class for arena because its strong in 3v3, then it gets nerfed next season. i suppose some hardcore arena players will eventually have all 8 characters at max level though.
also, if you play in a pc, how are you going to split for arena then?
if modes are offered, other than 8v8, then id like to see re-balances that only take effect during the arena match. for example, a class is really good in 2v2, but sucks in 3v3, then it gets a nerf during a 2v2 match and a buff during a 3v3 match, and it won't affect the open world.
indicates 1v1, 3v3, 5v5 and potentially a 20 player FFA
I'd rather have the game more focused and balanced around group play as mentioned earlier.
1v1, 3v3, and 8v8 are the ones I feel should definitely exist, balancing isn't relevant, in open world pvp games you rarely fight with perfect 8v8 teams, people that say this prob haven't played similar games,
open world matchups are most of the times odd with 3v4, 2v3, 6v6 and so on, arenas gives an excellent way of not only practice your individual skills in 1v1 but also practice with your friends on different matchups against the whole server, not limited to dueling friends/locals
It's damn near impossible to perfectly balance PvP in 1v1 with an extensive 64 class regardless of the 8 primary and 8 secondary archetype crossing points. That to me is going to be more one sided situationally regardless. I would prefer to see 1v1's more archetype orientated. Unless they do something unique with arena's to make them more dynamic with potential hazards. Balancing combat for 1v1's usually results in abilities and stats being tuned different than original game design for accommodation. Then you just end up with more systems to balance that do not necessarily reflect the games true nature.
The options for intra arena pools would be important in arena design in my opinion. You could have Intra primary archetypes competing in 1v1's or something along those lines. Hoping the arena doesn't cause too many issues for design and intent overall.
not true. when you play in cp against top players who also play in cp, its very common to do full party vs full party out in the open. a lot of the time your doing 1 full party vs 1 and a half party or even 2.
i like 1v1 but i like balanced 1v1 not broken 1v1
I'd play in them from time to time. Although I preferred L2s open world arenas.
They would get messy but you had an audience if you could make everyone get out of the way.
There should be no rewards, but also you should be required to be at the arena in game.
If this is not the case, players will just use the arena as a way to hide - the same argument some have made against any form of insta cedar PvE.
If Ashes arenas have no reward and no teleport, I don't really care what shape they take.
- balanced for both 1v1s and group combat.
- spectatable arenas inside a colloseum or social gathering space of some kind, not instanced, and with a wagering system
- a "fantasy league" type system where players can draft other players into their league and have performance tracked to compete against each other's teams
I dont really agree.
Should be able to walk into a military node, go to the arena there, and fight against anyone in the server from other arenas.
@Liniker said it best, some other players will live HOURS away from where you live in game. Arenas is the best place to be able to challenge them, in content that largely doesnt matter to the open world.
Fighting players from across the server will also help to limit win trading within a single arena, since mayor status might be linked in military node to arena performance. Get all your friends together to boost one persons status, losing to them over and over.
I mean, just look at how the games marketplace is being set up.
If you go to your local nodes arena, you should be able to fight anyone else that is in that arena, and that arena only.
Sure, it makes it less useful from a gameplay perspective, less convenient, but the same can be said of basically every aspect of Ashes, and I see no reason why an arena should be an exception.
I don't have an opinion either way on who you should be able to fight in the arena- but there is potentially a good reason why arenas can be treated differently from the open world, which is that: unlike many other systems that are interconnected with the open world (such as the markets), arenas will probably operate in a vacuum as their own independent system separate from the open world. This means that if the devs so desire, then its okay to add variety to Ashes by offering a more unique experience in the arena system of which is less consistent with the rest of the game, because the mechanics and design decisions made there would not really have any large scale cascading effects on the rest of the world.
For example, its hard for them to use rock paper scissors design while also balancing for both 1v1 and group play in the open world, because both can occur at the same time, so if you don't use rock paper scissors balancing then you don't have to rely on party members as much, so altering that approach in any way would affect either the 1v1 or the group play experience. Wheras since the arenas have independent modes for 1v1 and group combat, they can be designed independently from one another since they won't directly impact each other. Same thing applies to basically any other mechanic such as who can be fought in the arena. Sure it would create a less localized experience for arenas specifically, but they might be fine with that since it wouldn't bleed over into the rest of the game, unlike if you were to globalize the markets.
Again, I don't care at this point either way, just making a point.
Hard disagree, theres absolutely nothing against what ashes is in instanced arenas, as a matter of fact steven talked about possibly having cross-server arenas before, I think he knows better what AoC is about, server wide arenas are a Must, if you don't like 'em don't do it.
Sure it is.
Want instanced arenas that are accessable from anywhere in the world?
Why not instanced PvE that is accessable anywhere in the world? Why PvP and not PvE?
Why not have world wide access to the servers market?
The entire point of Ashes is that the game world as a whole is important. You can only do things in the area you are in. An instanced arena where you can fight people that entered the arena in other parts of the game world literally go directly against that.
Literally anything at all that can be applied to an arena should also be applied to PvE content.
It is hypocritical to suggest otherwise.
I want to see instanced PvE - but I want players to have to both travel and fight to get to it.
It seems many of the people that are more pro-PvP than I am seem to want instanced PvP without the need to both travel and fight to get to it. Honestly, this kind of tracks well with the bulk of my experiences with PvP players (at least, PvP players in Archeage).
I expect this kind of thing from Liniker, but you are generally more level headed than this.
Keeping the arena more centric to military nodes makes sense as it will attract those types of players to that node/vassal and perhaps even to participate as bounty hunters. I definitely like the idea of being able to spectate arena's or arena events like mayoral competitions or whatever similar things. Giving players the option to cheer or boo would be hilarious to some degree assuming we cant spam it annoyingly. Proximity chat would be funny in the audience as well. Could adjust the range so it doesn't annoy the combatants.
They were possibly thinking of cross server queuing for arena, it's not really a sure thing as far as I know. Who knows... maybe arena's will be exclusive to their own prime time but then this gets me wondering about siege declarations and issues corresponding directly to that. Wont be able to use the arena if the node is doing a siege or gets destroyed and the arena no longer exists there anymore.
So I am not really too sure what the best coarse of action is with the demand and supply of queued arena and its direct influence in the game.
EDIT:
Could have some really interesting events in the game with spectator allowance as well like how the romans and similar empires during that era had week long festivals and combat colosseum. That could add a unique twist to military nodes.
Additionally, one server could end up have a significant amount of military nodes and end up being more centric around the arena depending how the world develops from players. Lots of immersive options. Maybe it wont be instanced or queued but you have a time slot for when your arena time is and you need to show up, go through the gates and walk into the crowd during these events.
Based on my understanding, having a plethora or regional server instancing is a lot of traffic on the networking end and in the event of a the node being in a conflicted status players could just go to another military node assuming one is available regardless of cross server or intra server. Maybe even cross server arena events could allow players to view their arena's if the local team is the relative host. But that seems like a lot of work haha
nooani is right in this case. ashes is steering away from instanced stuff. so instanced arenas arent in ashes direction.
however...
if they arent equalized arena, and the gear (and other stuff) you farm doing pvx matter (like olympiads in l2), then arenas are kinda ok. they need to find a way to make it so that players dont spend 24/7 in arenas tho, maybe dont have them open 24/7.
edit: maybe thats how aoc will lure hardcore pvpers away from perma camping bosses and other stuff out in the open world, so more casual players have a chance to get those stuff lol
i said that clarifying to the other guy since he said not instanced arenas so people can spectate. you can spectate even if arenas are instanced.
participants should have a default appearance and shouldnt be able to see the name of their opponents, maybe until the end of the match.
this can reduce cheating and points feeding.
Fair enough, my mistake.
But I want to see live events! ( a bit of a delay is ok though
The reason - I would assume - is that if arena spectating were live, it would be easy to set people up as spotters. This is especially viable in larger scale arena fights.
The reason I say this is because it is what I would do if the arena were live and I could be bothered participating.
could you elaborate on this a bit? I mean sure, anyone can use discord and influence choices regardless as they can live stream their game through that but in a perspective with things like MMA, they have several coaches and trainers yelling at them anyways haha.
for example, you can have someone spectate the fight and tell you who you are going to fight, what class, and what buffs he is using, so now you know what to do before hand, like what gear to equip.
he could also tell you what skills to use mid fight. ur friend could tell you ok run back now, ok now use x then y, etc.
edit: well, i suppose people could stream their fight son discord as you said, and get help. but at least they would not know before the fight starts what are they against.
kind of but if you remove the ability to access those features to not let the audience interact with the character/system and API they wont know what you're using or how you're spec'd. Dont let the combatants know anything either. The problem in other games is players can know things by doing such actions because the dev's let them. Provide the minimal knowledge for fairness and UI allowance.
What you're describing is essentially how most sports work. Even e-sports learn about some of their opponents ahead of time as they're all there backed by organisations. As I said, they can just as easily have someone on discord live stream it and tell them things too.
I'm all for minimising the potential for cheating to encourage fair play but some of these examples seem a little lacking if I'm being honest.
If I see someone with a melee weapon I can presume they're going to do what most melee classes do. Range generally does similar things with distance and los. That's just relatively common knowledge. We wont be able to judge armour visually as we can pretty much look how we want which directly translates to open world pvp too. Make it so we can not inspect the opponent regardless of combatant or spectator. Who knows, they could always change their builds and synergy depending if 1v1 or 8v8