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Phase I of Alpha Two testing will occur on weekends. Each weekend is scheduled to start on Fridays at 10 AM PT and end on Sundays at 10 PM PT. Find out more here.
Check out Alpha Two Announcements here to see the latest Alpha Two news and update notes.
Our quickest Alpha Two updates are in Discord. Testers with Alpha Two access can chat in Alpha Two channels by connecting your Discord and Intrepid accounts here.
Comments
I agree basically with almost all of these points.
As someone who really loves Arenas, I'd love to see either instanced (I see the issue here that people are flagging related to why it should vs shouldn't be instanced and how it relates to PvE and the log in/queue/afk problem) or at least hubs (military nodes) where you can go and queue for matches consistently. PvP is huge for me and almost always has a super niche but loud population of people who love them, and not having access to playing in it on a consistent basis is a bit of a feel bad I think generally in terms of game enjoyment. So suffice to say I think it should be gated behind some sort of arena mechanic either having a node have to build one, or at least there being some leg work in getting to the resident "popular arena".
I also agree that literally no content should be balanced for anything under 5v5 because the heart of the game is centered on group play and OW because balancing around anything small enough to basically create crazy spikes in comps and power in large content.
I don't think spotting is an issue, there are pretty easy ways to at least limit what is known/unknown and at the end of the day the system has to be pretty flimsy for knowing comp/foods to be backbreaking.
Something I would like to see is rewards for arena pvping, even if it's worse to the Nth degree than something else you could be doing. Something like a minimal gold reward per match or something so it's not that you are literally getting nothing, but it's not a viable way to get rich but can pay for part of repairs or just a casual income that doesn't rely on anything else. I do think literally all other OWPvP and PvE interactions should reward far more than whatever the Arena would to be clear, but do like seeing at least something provided that can be used so it doesn't feel like I am "paying" to play.
because 1 - arenas dont give you any rewards besides cosmetics, PVE is different, but even if you are talking about PVE arenas with no rewards - also no, we don't want scope creep we want Intrepid to deliver on what they said we would have in the game
and pvp arenas is a feature that is supposed be in the game, I want them to deliver on their promises, thats the only reason why I'm commenting, if you look up my post history I say "no" to absolutely every new suggestion or feature that is not planned, and I say would be good to discuss post-launch, because I don't want a 2030 release, so no pve arenas,
finally, if you look up the wiki you will see arenas will have a ladder system with ranks, and Possibly, cross-server, now, it would make absolutely no fucking sense to plan an arena ladder system or ELO and even think about the possibility of cross-server system if its not planned to be server-wide, especially because Ashes is basically doing what L2 and AA did so, pretty obvious that these won't be local that would be a stupid idea
what does an api have to do with anything? people can spectate and the combatants cant see info on who they are fighting. one thing doesnt have to do anythign with the other.
and well, remember that everybody can wear any weapons. if you see someone with a bow, doesnt mean that person is a ranger and if you see someone with a sword and shield, it doesnt mean they are a tank.
you will still see them once the fight starts. what i mean is before the fight starts, during the preparation stage.
just read the wiki brother, instanced arenas are planed ever since 2017, you can't tell Steven what is or isn't ashes direction lol
https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Arenas
im not saying things are set in stone, and of course devs can deviate from the game direction. but its still going into a different direction.
when the game was announced, in 2017, they said it would have instanced arenas, as early as their first Kickstarter Livestream in May 2017 they talked about instanced arenas, I also found mentions to instanced arenas in 2018, 2020, 2021, 2022,
explain how is it going in a "different direction" from its original intended features that were always part of the game?
But there is no reason to avoid implement them, if they have enough developers and time to implement the feature.
ok. lets say we are going to build an mmorpg. i tell you its gonna be pvx, full open world, no instances. so all the content will be fighting players to do the pve content. we dont want people in instances 24/7
we also make the game such that it needs people out in the open to work. the land management system, caravanas, etc. we havent announced it yet.
then we start brainstorming ideas and things we want for the game. we have a few core pillars so every idea that is added into the game needs to follow these core pillars or rules. anything that doesnt follow these pillars cant be added into the game, no matter how good the idea is in isolation (thats your design direction)
eventually, we have a good 100 ideas, then we start narrowing them down. idea 86 doesnt follow the core pillars. ok its gone. we keep doing that to get rid of all the ideas that dont follow the direction we want the game to go and we are only left with the ideas that do.
so we start designing all these systems that came from the ideas mentioned above and seeing how they interact with one another, etc. then one day you tell me we need arenas for the pvp crowd. but hey we designed the game without instanced content! adding instanced pvp arenas would be the same as adding instanced pve dungeons! kind of
so we have to fit arenas in a way that matches open world, pvx, player created conflict, etc. so how are you going to do that. theres no fighting for limited resources in arenas, there isnt betraying your allies because you are greedy. there isnt creating or destroying alliances, etc, etc. every time players are in the arena, they arent out in the world doing open world things, fighting for resources, etc. imagine if out of the 10,000 players, 9,980 were inside arenas 24/7
at least they wont be equalized arenas (hopefully) and you can take the gear that you farm in pvx to the pvp instance. so its basically like taking a left turn then coming back to the main street later on.
so they dont fit what the game is. you could say that arenas is a completely different game. of course intrepid can add whatever they want to their game and make compromises. they can add something that goes into a different direction. its their game. but having pure pvp instanced content goes against the very nature of having open world pvx content, same goes for adding pve instances.
i still want the arenas, but they are still going in a different way than what ashes is supposed to be. so hopefully they will find a creative way to do so.
Oh hey, back when they said they want PvE content that can compete with WoW!
OK, let's go back to expecting what they said back then, I'm down for that.
The rewards were never the issue people had with instanced PvE. I believe the issue you have (or at least have claimed to have) is that people will use instances to "hide" (showing a total lak of understanding as to how PvE instances can and should function).
Now, to be clear, I didn't say no to instanced arenas. I said no to an interconnected arena. That is the part that goes against the games core design. If you build an arena in a given node, you should be able to go in to an arena instance to fight anyone you like that is in that same arena - but you shouldn't be able to fight someone in an arena in a different node.
If you wish to fight someone that is not in the same arena you are in, you should need to travel to them.
Just because it happens in some sport, doesn't mean it should always happen.
The arena should be about the people in the arena, not about an additional person feeding them information.
From the very top of the wiki page...
https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Arenas
Instanced PvP existing with a ladder system and ELO system that players interface with from an arena in a military node doesnt prevent anyone from going to pvp in the open world, and people will hardly be hiding inside an arena.
And if you don't want to queue in to arenas to earn the gear enhancements, go raid caravans instead. Or be in a guild warring against other guilds.
Having instanced pvp in an arena where you can fight anyone in the world at other arenas and potentially cross server (per the wiki even), is only a positive thing for pvpers. I mean honestly, be real with yourself, Arenas will be popping off 24/7, but open world pvp is a lot of.... waiting, hoping someone is somewhere you can fight with.
well, the api can provide a lot of information such as things we already discussed as I mentioned already.
And you're not wrong, you'll find out when the arena starts. Just like in football. you may have an idea of what they're planning, but you wont know for sure until the ball is snapped.
it's different in some ways across different sports but that doesn't mean it doesn't happen and isn't an integral part of professional sports. I've already used the discord/live stream as an example already so i wont reiterate that. If it were a choice.... I'd prefer a live arena event in an MMO rather than using the arena as a movie theater and theme park. Live spectating would seem more practical than just have an immersive version of YouTube imbedded in the game personally.
Unfortunate truth about modern age gaming is how accessible information is outside of the game now such as things like discord, live streaming etc. I also hope in a way that if they provide an armoury style website that displays characters and profiles that it is relatively delayed in updated information to reduce information being accessed outside of the game. I've seen a lot of those websites even provide your account information as well which can be problematic in relation to security.
Within the first year people are already going to be analysing the combat and things related to it with public access on youtube. I personally prefer to not play an MMO like a lobby game. Kind of defeats the purpose of an mmo. It would be like playing planet side so i can go stand at the base taking up a server spot just duel on instanced combat battle grounds. haha
an api for what? so someone makes a website and people can go there and check things out. is that what u mean?
you can still have such api and prevent players from seeing the name of their opponents and load them with a default appereance. -_- one thing has nothing to do with te other.
all the api does is send some info, then the client (the game u install on your pc) decides how to render it .-.
access to api's can provide a lot of information in addition to what was previously discussed
I mean, yeah, you can allow for people outside to watch and help by having it live, or you can just not.
Having a minute or two delay isnt ever going to cause a problem, and will prevent groups having spotters watching, thus opening up more viable tactics making the whole thing better.
It really is that simple.
sounds like you're more proving my point than disproving to be honest haha
The delay isn't going to make people not live stream it or not have people "coach" or "spot". It's essentially the same thing. I can see the increased necessity to have the delay in games with strategic maps, fog of war and positioning like RTS, MOBA's and FPS games but we're literally talking about an arena. Unless they're doing some crazy new version to re-invent the wheel it's probably going to be an open area with some objects for LOS and maybe some cool hazards like spikes/traps which I think would be better over all.
Addons holding your hand is one thing but having people do some research or coach you to some small degree isn't going to make the impact you're probably imagining in my opinion. They can still watch the replays and "spot" from those or YouTube video's anyways.
Players play the game, Champions play the players.
I wouldn't want to see some arena building essentially turning into a movie theater if it doesn't have to be. If instanced arena is supposed to be some centric focus of the game, they could also just make it so it's not part of the actual server as a feature outside of it. Planning and designing a feature of the game in hopes of E-sports is usually what causes them to not be successful for e-sports. The players will in most cases decide what is popular enough for e-sports. Just figured I would throw that in there incase anyone was specifically hoping for that.
In a negative perspective, assuming ashes doesn't excel after the first year, I suppose in a way the arena could become the centric focus and snow ball into a theme park game which I'm sure some would be thrilled about lol.
The thing with live streaming is that you can still only see from the players perspective.
My expectation of being able to spectate is that you are not limited to any one specific players perspective.
So, rather than it being a case of watching a friend stream.and talking them through it, it would be a case of watching your friends rival and talking your friend through what they are doing.
I definitely see the point for that perspective but I don't see how it's going to significantly impact it to that degree especially if they're going for the traditional arena. If you dont see someone, chances are they're hiding behind something. Sometimes name plates reveal this (which i don't like haha). Name plates do ruin a lot of immersion and gameplay strategy.
Still, if there's 4 pillars, they're behind one and there's mobility/class abilities to aid in that as well. Who knows, maybe we'll see traps that add smoke screens and what not to reduce visibility. The game is also essentially third person, so there's the corner peaks with the camera too. I can definitely see the spotter issue being more of a problem for first person perspective though. I will not deny that.
There's lots of ways to gather intelligence on opponents regardless if it's relatively live or watched as a replay regardless of the delay value. Lots of players will go to guides, figure out counters, take a gamble in the arena and hope for the best based on their choices. Addons directly use the games resources efficiently and faster than a human can process where as someone telling them to keep pressure on or kite or dodge is more open to human error. There's also the factor of the player just not listening, tunnel vision etc.
I just don't see having arena's being a live event that much of an issue because all competitors and viewers could essentially do the same thing especially in a guild vs guild event. If we had more of an idea on the kind of lay out the arena's are going to be, perhaps we can go more in-depth with these perspective but if arena's are going to be things like capture the flag, center flag push, point capture then I can definitely see it being more of an issue to various degrees situationally but that's just creating battle grounds which in some ways are arenas but would directly pull away from the goal of an mmorpg being open world conflicted.
And if they aren't going for the "traditional arena"?
Basically, having live spectating restricts what they can do. Having a few minutes delay causes no issues.
Again, it's simple. Just have the delay that doesn't cause issues, then you have fewer restrictions.
simply speaking, what's the point of using the arena as a movie theatre. Seems like a potentially waste of time for the devs to allocate resources.
I just don't see a point in it then when I could just go focus and play in the open world design then. If I want to watch replays I can go to YouTube. lol.
No idea.
If people want to watch, that's cool.
That said, this is the same comment I have to any game stream, yet there are millions of people that watch others playing games.
Relatively true but perceptively not valid lol
As I mentioned, if arena's are going to be like battle grounds IE capture the flag, point capture etc. then their goal is to introduce theme park game design which will essentially kill off the open world conflict as it has been proven to in most mmorpg's that have done. If that's the case.. then it looks like ashes is deceptively creating a mainstream mmorpg and those PvE servers are a possible reality though not as 1:1 design.
Definitely would make military nodes less appealing if they're just a place to queue up for instanced combat and replays haha. Would definitely prefer a more social dynamic to the game and system if I had to choose. Guess we'll have to wait and see what is at play with ashes design.
Because Freeholds were supposed to be available to "anyone who wants one and works for it."
They are, in fact, NOT available for anyone who wants one and works for it. They will likely be the single most contested piece of housing and economy-domination component that any server will see.
Because Inns were (seemingly, but I don't know for 100%) added as a random last-minute band-aid when people weren't happy about the housing options available to players and that every housing option was going to be extremely limited. Wouldn't want half the server population to be totally homeless, after doing the math.
Because crossbows were removed from development after Intrepid realized it was too much work to get them to function properly.
Because there used to be one number of nodes in the world "for the entire time Steven spoke about this game" until one day when it changed.
Because Steven has said that travel times will matter and you will need to make decisions on where you want to be and when. Thus, incredibly limited fast travel. As in: limited to family summons, scientific nodes (Heck, this might change, too. Never know.), and flight paths as far as we know right now. Flight paths will only be "faster than slow" travel, as it always is in every game ever, with one core intention being that it allows a player to travel far without the risk of being hijacked along the way and travel speed only supremely benefiting those that don't have a mount at all.
Because, as you mentioned, the original intent was to release "before 2020."
Because things change based on need and feasibility and fairness. Do I like all the examples above? No. No I don't. Do I see why some of them were made and accept that there was a reason? Yes. With an extra helping of begrudging acceptance as I might have in some cases (lookin at you, Freeholds and Inns...).
Either way, things changed from the original design announced.
Literally: Anything is up for debate at this point.
One of the *PILLARS* of the game is risk vs reward. No risk of travel distance (where you could encounter open world pvp) and time (spending time on the chance that you might get a match when you arrive)? no reward for participating in pvp arenas.
One of the core tenets is that there should be incredibly limited fast travel, with the stated exceptions being very limited and one takes a lot of effort and replaces other huge benefits in other metropolis nodes.
If you aren't allowed to argue with those reasons behind you, you have no basis to argue with anything else behind you and actually have grounds for proper debate.
To answer OP's questions, though:
Both. Open-world arenas for 1v1 duels and some interesting spectator components would be neat. 1v1 duel arena's in the "open world" could even be restricted zones within the open world where others "could" enter, but only those registered for that 1v1 duel are able to maintain their full strength within some kind of magic dampening field.
Yes. At this point, the existence of PvP arenas means everything is far tilted in the PvP player direction. There is not much for PvE-focused content outside of the 20% of raids/dungeons that are instanced. Everything else has a deep-seated design requiring cooperation or confrontation with PvP players. I like the idea of Boss battle gauntlets, as someone else suggested. Swarm gauntlets would also be neat. Obstacle courses that cause damage, rather than simple pass/fail falls/ring-outs. All of the above giving limited forms of recovery, so there will be a point where most will simply not be able to move on, no matter how many supplies they bring.
All arenas should have this. How flexible it is should be the only variable. Not many people in queue? It's a good thing PvP matching will scale to flex outside your bracket to find a match. PvP arena matching should be centrally located at a Metropolis location, with maybe some advanced options available at military nodes.
--1v1 because PvP players will always want to flex muscles on who is best in class. If your class isn't the best in 1v1, it isn't best. But you can be the best of your class. besides, as Liniker said, it is ALWAYS helpful to get 1v1 practice against all classes.
--2v2 because running wiht yer bestie is always fun.
--4v4 because it is half the variety of the intended 8-class party balancing. It leaves room for balance between class choice synergy/strategy and "can't find enough people for a team of 8"
--8v8 because that is the intended balance point for classes
-- 12v12 because it adds a bit more action to the mix and allows for strategic choices that include a balanced 8v8 + 4 augmenting players
Queues from anywhere in the world. There should be central hubs you need to visit in-person. Cross-realm can be cross-realm, I suppose. If there are really that few people interested in an idea that you NEED to incorporate other realms, whatever. But they should all need to visit the same type of hub in order to enter the queue. Maintain consistency across all content types. Everyone else needs to go somewhere specific to do anything else, so why should those entering PvP arenas be any different? Doesn't sound very "risk vs reward" to me.
If they are balanced on an effort/time-to reward basis with PvE content, I would be ok with gear or crafting component rewards.
If it has to be done from the hub, I see no reason to delineate from any other PvP arena. Some people will only be able to logon for limited times and want to run in an arena.
yes but that has nothing to do with the actual match while its happening. unless you are willing to say that you will know you are fighting, and before the fight starts, you will alt tab to find info about that player for whatever reason.
not knowing who you are fighting until the match ends prevents point feeding.
I dont really want to reiterate all the information I just provided you explaining this. No offense
If there is scope to hide, there is reason to want a spotter.
I'm not saying i necessarily disagree but your counter to it just doesn't seem logical by todays standards. It was great years ago when these tools were not accessible but hey, here we are in 2023. Let's create a socially dynamic game but demand theme park design for the sake of it to reduce the social aspect of the game design to a hypothetical system that could have no weight in the game because of an audience member potentially "spotting". Imagine going to a live sport event just to watch the replay in an audience haha. Still makes military nodes seem less appealing as it's a community game lobby in an MMO. Foundation is there for themepark snowballing. Just like they said they didn't want a toy box mmorpg yet they're slowly adding in toy box stuff as the updates progress. In some ways, glad I haven't thrown in hundreds of dollars. Quite skeptical to support something like this but that doesn't mean I wont try it.