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a general question for thoughts on how summoner spells might work
Rookk
Member, Alpha Two
so ik from what i have read about it that summoenrs spells will be based on their summons which makes me curious as to how that might work so i figure its a good question to shoot into the void so people can spitball ideas if they want like how ill do with to me it sounds like if you summon creatures than you will either get to use THEIR spells as your spells with each one having specific spells they allow YOU to use as they are alive which kinda feels a bit on the more boring side making them less important and more like pets that just exist so you can just be a different type of mage. personally i feel tho based on what i have read about it that it sounds maaaybbeee more like the spells will be cast through them which makes me think that intrepid wants to allow summoners to have a lot more control over their sumomners which makes me wonder if each summon gets its own command list along with spells that exlcusively get cast through it so like you can order your wolf pack to flank while you direct your bear to pull aggro or maybe like the weaker sumons that wont come with powers command with command spells as they arent strong engouh to even come close to being able to resist your orders to do as you say so as consulation, the wolfpack would have a go here, attack this enemy stop attack, and maybe a special dodge ability so nothing special but you know what you get with them while a bear might get a roar which could build aggression but wont do dmg and have a attack, and go here spell. this could also be fun as like level 2 summons like that bear could possibly be that would take 2 slots would get more intersting abilies like its taunt but you would be losing out on orders you could give it with than tier 3 ones that flat out take all 3 slots can simply be commanded to attack a target while ones that take multiple summoners wont even give the summoners any abilites maybe even at all as they wont head the command of beings so much weaker than them and instead will fight as they know how to and dont need inferior beings to pretend to know what to do. honestly that could also help reign in the power of multiple summoner summons as they would basically be like summoning minibosses on your side AT THE COST of several of your groups members also all being dedicated to maintaining it requiring the remaining players to protect them to keep this miniboss out.
edit: OK SO UHHMHMMMMMM I WAS AWAY FOR LIKE A WEEK DEALING WITH COVID AFTER HAVING PASSED OUT TO THE DAMN THING AND NOW IM FINALLY BACK IN MY ROOM TO SEE 76 UNREAD COMMENTS..... UHHH... i think i might just haveta say this conversation no longer involves me or i need to state now that there is no way i will know like well over half of what has been said past my last comment XD uihhh hot damn.......
edit: OK SO UHHMHMMMMMM I WAS AWAY FOR LIKE A WEEK DEALING WITH COVID AFTER HAVING PASSED OUT TO THE DAMN THING AND NOW IM FINALLY BACK IN MY ROOM TO SEE 76 UNREAD COMMENTS..... UHHH... i think i might just haveta say this conversation no longer involves me or i need to state now that there is no way i will know like well over half of what has been said past my last comment XD uihhh hot damn.......
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Comments
The Necromancer in that game used a pet point system like what you suggest to great effect. Even in other ways besides pets. The Necromancer could add more pet points and be weak. Also, the Necromancer could cast a buff for more personal magic power at the cost of pet points. These add pet points and taking pet point for power could be combined to make a powerful glass magic can of a Necromancer.
Grim Dawn's Necromancer pets system is interesting. Pets can be made stronger with upgrades in the skill trees and as pets battle they get stronger.
Also, looking at the more recent WoW Warlock class pet system. One main pet, but the Warlock can be speced to proc any number of temporary pets for use.
I personally do not want to see Wild Blade with any pet summons as a melee pet class sucks in any game it's done in. In reality, I do not want to see permanent summons at all.
Shamans in WoW were a type of summoner, Druids in WoW and Diablo were a type of summoner. Nightblade, Sorc, Warden, Necromancer, and an Arcanist are a type of Summoner in ESO.
I despised base Necromancer in GW1 and GW2, too many pets that you couldn't do anything with and a very boring and passive playstyle. But I loved Mesmer in GW1 and GW2, Revenant could be considered a type of summoner.
and the class designers said we're going to get a different type of Summoner, not the base passive pet class which is what I hope turns out for summoner.
I rather Summoner be an end game high skill ceiling archetype since it's primary function is based off it's secondary archetype. Not the entry level archetype, that would be boring for a class that takes that much work to make.
When summon pets are not permanent, having a pet class becomes a chore. I did not like Necro in GW because I constantly had to battle to build up any type of decent fighting pets.
Permanent pets are a must for summoners. But, having some temp pets from damage procs or special abilities are nice.
Also, I played a Shaman in WoW. Technically, it could be considered a pet class. But, the totems never felt like pets, but more like throwing magical sign posts to help players.
I don't agree and like I said before, I do not want to see summoner being the entry level class; I rather see a new spin on it where it becomes a high skill ceiling archetype that requires knowledge of the other archetypes in order to play effectively.
personally i agree and i feel that that is the express reason i decidede to work my thoughts around the summon limit mentioned in past possibly being 3 summons with depending on the summons power, it could take up 2 or even all 3 slots to have some fun where the low level summons that take only 1 slot arent just powerful by numbers but allow you to be a true commander while the more powerful they get limits your own options of how to use them encouraging people to only use them when it is really needed like a raid for example where its more beneficial to pull out one 3 slot healer summon to make up for a dead healer till they get ressed or maybe do that for a tank because without a tank to fill in the most recently dropped tanks position, the boss battle will end in defeat. basically i want summoner to feel like a true battle field commander type thing.
They can, because their summons are not limited to pets.
I picture Udyr as a Wild Blade.. Or a Druid who Fulfills the Wild Hunt.
I rather summons take talent to use and not be infinite.
I've have this theorycraft before, my ideas boiled down to two main points.
1) some kind of unit cap systems where different summons take up different amounts from that limit. For example a necromancer that has a cap of 10; then skeletons are 1 point, skeleton archer is 2, a wraith for 3, some big bone golem as 10.
This gives the players the option between a swarm of weaker summons or one big summon as needed.
2) after your summon cap is met, any hotkeys you have for summoning flip over into an activated ability for that summon. If you have multiple of a summon you could get "charges" for their active ability. This also gives a layer of strategy for having the right summons out to have the right abilities available to use. 3 wraiths may not be as good as a swarm or bone golems, but having 3 charges of their activated fear ability could be situationally useful.
And then everything else the summoner does should be buffing or supporting with minimal active play without a summon available to act through.
I would love for them to go from their usual spot as the braindead class to that high end big brain plays with the right synergies and counter play.
aye.
Something requiring actual strategy and tactics rather than an AFK bot.
The brilliant part of the pet point system in Age of Conan Necromancer is that it allowed the Necromancer to either fulfill both the role of pet master and non-pet ice mage, and anything in between.
You need to look into the Necromancer class mechanics in Age of Conan and Grim Dawn. You will find that a lot of you suggestions have been tried and been found to work, along with what you suggested taken further.
dude the skill would come in with managing them, keeping them alive, using the right ones at the right time, and general commander type skills to lead a group especially since summoners will already be in the back lines focusing on commanding their summons meaning i could see them ending up being the ones leading groups all together.
i think you and him are misunderstanding what we are saying by saying that the summons should be permannent. like i said in my original post, we KNOW there will be a summon limit of 3 and some summons can take up multiple slots with upwards of all 3 slots being used to summon one summon and my idea was the lower level summons on top of having more pittiful stats would AT LEAST give you full control of where to tell them to go and how to act and when to act as their abilities with the higher level the summoner, sure the more powerful abilites you can make it use BUT you lose control of it and even a max 3 slot summon wouldnt be able fully replace a player of the same class so a actual player tank would still be better than a 3 slot summon tank for example. basically its the idea where you ahve to figure out how to properly command multiple lower level troops to defeat higher level enemies than them while managing your own resources so as to not loose the battle of attrition. permanent summons are just a quality of life thing so that way you at least can focus on their movement and they wont randomly be unsommoned and than haveta be resummoned at what was for example going to be a critical flank oppurtunity.
yup exactly what i was reccomneding if you guys would bother to read my post XD
What makes you think I didn't read your wall of text? I just don't want *pets*, there are many other ways to implement summons.
Udyr would be player base summon, to where the spirit you invoke doesn't leave the player, but encapsulates you in its essence and gives you more of a tool kit then swapping between tool-kits is fine.
Living weapons, spirit stances, etc
Warlock and Unholy Death Knight from WoW however, is what I'm vehemently against.
Why not? Pets add flavor to a game.
A lot of players, including myself, are interested in Ashes of Creation specifically because of the possibility of several different multi-pet classes.
Multi-pet class being a class having multiple pets permanently summon at one time.
Multi-pet classes are a rarity in multiplayer games, especially in MMO. Even there, it is even more rare to be done well.
While I agree that some combinations such as summoner/fighter could work different with spirit arms/armor, but I do want pets for most of them. Just like you said though, I don't want static set them and forget them pets.
Because a summon was never meant to be permanent. It’s temporary.
That is not an answer to my question. Summoners are suppose to be able to summon permanent pets.
There is even European folklore on summoning permanent magical servants. Such as summoning familiars and the creation of the golem.
There are middle eastern myths of jinn that were summoned for years on end that built large, grand buildings.
This is more in-line with Abrahamic magics, IRL. A book called Lemegeton was written a few centuries ago that introduced the notion that the biblical King Solomon knew things that were beyond his time and capacity to have known, and so an unknown author wrote a book that works on the theory that Solomon used "spirit-binding", to supplement his knowledge and powers. It's essentially the notion that certain spells and incantations and practices allow a summoner to call forth a Divine, Infernal, or un-affiliated spirit to them, and "bind" them to their person, for the rest of their life - thus gaining the benefit of that spirit's "powers", for themselves.
The book's really not much of an interesting read, beyond this notion. Like a 3rd of it is literally just odd symbols identifying the spirit beyond languages, the rank of the spirit, and the spirit that it serves. For a time, it was considered Catholic canon. While it's been a long time since the Catholic church dropped it from their canon, every Catholic exocist is familiar with it, since an exorcist's powers are not their own; They operate on the notion that invoking names grants powers to practices such as exorcism. I.e. if you know which demon an Infernal spirit serves, you can use that demon's boss's name to command the evil spirit from the body of a possessed person.
The permanent pet trope is boring, not to mention pet classes require a lot more from in game systems that you pray is good in PvP and PvE.
I think summons should cost resources and concentration to keep into the material world and stay at a high skill cap.
Most pet classes are a low skill cap in the MMOs I’ve played and end up the entry level class.
I’m not interested in that for summoners.
I’d like to see Summoner require knowledge of the other archetypes and a high strategic and tactical understanding of the game to pull off.
Thanks Tyr I’ll look into this.
That issues of hardware/software limitations preventing multi-pet classes has been overcomes several times over. That was a problem twenty years ago. Not present day.
Your suggestions turn pet classes into a chore.
Like all things, just because something is easy to do, it can take a challenge to master.
Permanent pets are what separate summoners from other archetypes.
Had to correct it from Abraham to Solomon. Solomon was the one with all the mysticism around him. This was bothering me, in the shower. Yours truly often has the right stories - but the wrong details.
If you're genuinely interested in that type of IRL lore, then Lemegeton is worth a read-through. The school of thought of spirit-binding is actually much, MUCH older - but this was the very first major written compendium, on the subject. It's also known as the "Clavicula Salmonis". It's first known appearance was in England in the 1600's - supposedly while the church was going through the belongings of a man hung for witchcraft by an IRL witch-hunter (it greatly amuses me that this was once an ACTUAL job/occupation).
Ah, the oddities you can find on Amazon....
Be very careful where you are going with this. The book you will find on the matter is called the "Lesser Key of Solomon".
Copies of that book are considered one of the major items of real life occults. Reading the book is okay, as long as you take precautions. Though...
DO NOT TRY TO SUMMON THE BEINGS FROM THAT BOOK!
As unlikely as it is, you might succeed. And if you do, without taking the precautions detailed in the book, well you might end up like the victims from the Hellraiser films
Sorry for going off topic. But, some warnings need to be given.
A chore for you.
My suggestions maintain the integrity of a high skill ceiling and the proper use of class kits without crutching on them.
I am not interested in the same trope of permanent low entry pet class.
And I will always vouch for summoner to be high risk, high reward as well as requiring a vast knowledge of the game to pull off.
Just let me use these silent, obedient, atta-bones (lol) that lie about everywhere in the wide and deadly World of Verra, for something useful.
Since all mortal Beings usually return to the Earth sooner or later anyway, one might as well use this generous gift they leave behind. Skeletons, or whole Bodies to turn into Zombies,
just accept it. The deceased are there so serve.
Permanent ? I can see Plus- and Minus-Points for that. I personally, would find a Timer and/or Duration of Ten to Thirty Minutes the best.
Also,
i wouldn't be surprised at all -> if the " Time " greatly varies of how long a summoned - well - "Summon" is able to stay manifested, regarding of which Subclass the Summoner has, later on in the Game when he or she levelled up just enough.
Someone for Example who uses "Spirits" ("good-natured Necromancers" if my Memory is correct),
should pr~ooobably be able to use these Spirits for as long as they want. They are Spirits after all. Part of the Soul and so on, right ? Part of an eternal Existence not bound to mortal Matters like Flesh or Bone.
So called "evil Necromancers", who are Necromancers praying, worshipping, believing into "dark Gods" and use directly Bones and Corpses to do their bidding,
should also be able to use their Summons for awhole While - but of Course as the raised Servants are made out of mortal Remains, it is understandable that they can not be used permanently for as long as the Necromancer wants.
Mage-Type Summoners ? I could imagine some kind of "Elemental-Servants" like in WoW, to be able to be free from the Limits of mortal Flesh and Bones as well.
But just how much Power, Magic, Chi, Mana, etc. - would be needed, to keep them manifested near their Master, all the time ? I could imagine this to be taxing on the Mage-Type Summoner.
For this single, sole Primary/Archetype Class alone - that is the Summoner,
and which is - of Course - much to my tested Ability to quell my Anger told not to be available in the Beginning of Alpha Two,
i could imagine that for this single Class, the Developers might need to go all out a little bit more than for most of the other Classes, in Order to make the "Sub-Classes" feel very good and well integrated into the Summoner Archetype.
But as good things shall always take a While - i hope Sir Steven and his mighty Crew of brave Developers will succeed just fine in the End. They need time to do that ? Then hopefully they will get all the Time they need.
✓ Occasional Roleplayer
✓ Kinda starting to look for a Guild right now. (German)