a general question for thoughts on how summoner spells might work

willsummon

Solvryn wrote: »

My suggestions maintain the integrity of a high skill ceiling and the proper use of class kits without crutching on them.

I am not interested in the same trope of permanent low entry pet class.

And I will always vouch for summoner to be high risk, high reward as well as requiring a vast knowledge of the game to pull off.

What you suggest is a lot of prep work right before every attack. That is a chore and the worst form of grindfest that can be put in a game. This is like forcing melee having to repair or replace their weapons after each attack.

You want the summoner to be a high maintenance class that will be difficult to play and never be welcome in groups and raids because it takes so long for a summoner to get ready for each attack.

I have seen similar situations in MMOs. When a group or raid is ready to attack, they attack. Anyone that is not ready is cut from the group or raid.

Solvryn

willsummon wrote: »

Solvryn wrote: »

My suggestions maintain the integrity of a high skill ceiling and the proper use of class kits without crutching on them.

I am not interested in the same trope of permanent low entry pet class.

And I will always vouch for summoner to be high risk, high reward as well as requiring a vast knowledge of the game to pull off.

What you suggest is a lot of prep work right before every attack. That is a chore and the worst form of grindfest that can be put in a game. This is like forcing melee having to repair or replace their weapons after each attack.

You want the summoner to be a high maintenance class that will be difficult to play and never be welcome in groups and raids because it takes so long for a summoner to get ready for each attack.

I have seen similar situations in MMOs. When a group or raid is ready to attack, they attack. Anyone that is not ready is cut from the group or raid.

I like the vision laid out for summoner as described on the wiki. Not just a pet trope, but a class with an intricate kit that’s able to fill roles as needed.

Prep work to keep your summons, summoned? Maybe you haven’t the experience needed to play a Summoner outside the static and permanent pet.

But some of us have had many years of practice and can.

I don’t want a boring easy mode class with a boring pet.

Luckily they have a vision for it and it isn’t just pets.

willsummon

Solvryn wrote: »

I like the vision laid out for summoner as described on the wiki. Not just a pet trope, but a class with an intricate kit that’s able to fill roles as needed.

Prep work to keep your summons, summoned? Maybe you haven’t the experience needed to play a Summoner outside the static and permanent pet.

But some of us have had many years of practice and can.

I don’t want a boring easy mode class with a boring pet.

Luckily they have a vision for it and it isn’t just pets.

You miss the forest for the trees. It is variations of pet summoning types that IS the summoner's tool kit.

I have played several pet classes on several games, including MMOs. What you want is not fun for most players. It has been done and shown not to work.

You even claim you do not want the summon to be easy to play. If it is not easy, it is not fun. And paying customers want to have fun.

You want an example of 'easy mode'. Warrior with auto-attack. That is easy mode. Compared to that, pet classes are already more complex than that.

Solvryn

willsummon wrote: »

Solvryn wrote: »

I like the vision laid out for summoner as described on the wiki. Not just a pet trope, but a class with an intricate kit that’s able to fill roles as needed.

Prep work to keep your summons, summoned? Maybe you haven’t the experience needed to play a Summoner outside the static and permanent pet.

But some of us have had many years of practice and can.

I don’t want a boring easy mode class with a boring pet.

Luckily they have a vision for it and it isn’t just pets.

You miss the forest for the trees. It is variations of pet summoning types that IS the summoner's tool kit.

I have played several pet classes on several games, including MMOs. What you want is not fun for most players. It has been done and shown not to work.

You even claim you do not want the summon to be easy to play. If it is not easy, it is not fun. And paying customers want to have fun.

You want an example of 'easy mode'. Warrior with auto-attack. That is easy mode. Compared to that, pet classes are already more complex than that.

Summoner is going to be a role filler, it’s already going to be a complicated class. Good.

I too have played pet summoners and I’ve also played games with summons being intricate in design. It does work, for the players that enjoy it, I don’t care of the bots and AFKers don’t like my suggestions.

It will not bother me if Summoners have a high difficulty and most people will not enjoy playing them.

Good, that’s the level of challenge, and risk vs reward I’d like to see out of its tool-kit.

There are other archetypes players can enjoy, but Summoner in Ashes should be the highest skill ceiling class by its very nature.

willsummon

Solvryn wrote: »

Summoner is going to be a role filler, it’s already going to be a complicated class. Good.

I too have played pet summoners and I’ve also played games with summons being intricate in design. It does work, for the players that enjoy it, I don’t care of the bots and AFKers don’t like my suggestions.

It will not bother me if Summoners have a high difficulty and most people will not enjoy playing them.

Good, that’s the level of challenge, and risk vs reward I’d like to see out of its tool-kit.

There are other archetypes players can enjoy, but Summoner in Ashes should be the highest skill ceiling class by its very nature.

There is no such as a complicated roll filler in groups and raids.

What you suggest would force summoners into one play style, that is burst dps, while having enemies chase the summoner without the summoner having crowd control abilities, with pets being created by procs, such as enemy deaths.

First, summoner would summon a temp pet. This would cut into the summoners mana pool, but the summoner does not have time to refill their mana because the pet is on a timer. The summoner sends the pet after the weakest of the enemy mob.

Meanwhile, while that pet attacks the weakest mob, because it is a temp pet, it cannot tank, so the summoner has to dance around while using damage over time spells on the rest of the mobs.

At the same time, the summoner has to hope the weak mob dies and the chance to proc a temp pet from the remains, while also hope the proc pet does not agro a nearby enemy not in combat and hope proc pet attacks the mob the summoner is dealing with.

That is a lot of "hope". By then, the summoned pet is gone.

The summoner has to hope the proc pet can last long enough to destroy the other groups of the mob. Or, the timer runs out and the summoner is gets stomped.

Even if the summoner kills all the mob. By the time the summoner has recover, the summoner has to start all over again for the next group of enemies.

Such a playstyle barely works solo. It is useless in PVP and not tolerated in groups and raids because it lacks sustained dps and can easily pull outside mobs.

That is high difficulty and aggravation with little reward.

Permanent pets allow sustained dps and roles, such as dps, tanking, healing, buffing, etc. Also, permanent pets can be directed through an area or ordered to stay in a single place.

Personally, I do not want the AoC summoner to be the "Elden Ring" level difficulty of pet archetype. I just want a class that is fun to play. Not have my hair pulled out in frustration trying to play the summoner archetype.

Solvryn

willsummon wrote: »

Solvryn wrote: »

Summoner is going to be a role filler, it’s already going to be a complicated class. Good.

I too have played pet summoners and I’ve also played games with summons being intricate in design. It does work, for the players that enjoy it, I don’t care of the bots and AFKers don’t like my suggestions.

It will not bother me if Summoners have a high difficulty and most people will not enjoy playing them.

Good, that’s the level of challenge, and risk vs reward I’d like to see out of its tool-kit.

There are other archetypes players can enjoy, but Summoner in Ashes should be the highest skill ceiling class by its very nature.

There is no such as a complicated roll filler in groups and raids.

What you suggest would force summoners into one play style, that is burst dps, while having enemies chase the summoner without the summoner having crowd control abilities, with pets being created by procs, such as enemy deaths.

First, summoner would summon a temp pet. This would cut into the summoners mana pool, but the summoner does not have time to refill their mana because the pet is on a timer. The summoner sends the pet after the weakest of the enemy mob.

Meanwhile, while that pet attacks the weakest mob, because it is a temp pet, it cannot tank, so the summoner has to dance around while using damage over time spells on the rest of the mobs.

At the same time, the summoner has to hope the weak mob dies and the chance to proc a temp pet from the remains, while also hope the proc pet does not agro a nearby enemy not in combat and hope proc pet attacks the mob the summoner is dealing with.

That is a lot of "hope". By then, the summoned pet is gone.

The summoner has to hope the proc pet can last long enough to destroy the other groups of the mob. Or, the timer runs out and the summoner is gets stomped.

Even if the summoner kills all the mob. By the time the summoner has recover, the summoner has to start all over again for the next group of enemies.

Such a playstyle barely works solo. It is useless in PVP and not tolerated in groups and raids because it lacks sustained dps and can easily pull outside mobs.

That is high difficulty and aggravation with little reward.

Permanent pets allow sustained dps and roles, such as dps, tanking, healing, buffing, etc. Also, permanent pets can be directed through an area or ordered to stay in a single place.

Personally, I do not want the AoC summoner to be the "Elden Ring" level difficulty of pet archetype. I just want a class that is fun to play. Not have my hair pulled out in frustration trying to play the summoner archetype.

You made up hypotheticals without even knowing how the class will be designed or knowing what the resource will be, seems like you haven't even read the wiki. Summoner may have some pets for specific classes, but not every class within the Archetype will be pet summons.

There's very little to respond to when you just made up hypotheticals.

I'm not going to budge on being a high skill-high reward class in Summoner and it being a high level strategy, tactical, and knowledge based class. I want a challenge as a veteran player, I do not care if most people suck at the class or are inexperienced to pull it off.

If players want an entry level class they can play with a pet out if they need it; its what its there for.

JC31

I remember reading on the wiki some where that every class will get a pet. It will not be as strong as a summoner's pet obviously but you can still have a pet. He is a link to pets on the wiki. https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Pets

@willsummon I would guess that not all summoners will not be lumped into a dps roll. From my past experience with summoners they are usually very versatile because their pet can both tank and dps. The summoner may be able to heal themselves, their pet, or their allies such as if you're a necromancer. I would guess an enchanter would have buffs. Enchanter maybe restore mana to your friends. Summoner is most fun to be as a support class that has the power to turn the tide of a battle when things are going wrong. We could hypothesize but I am not sure how much info has been released yet.

Enigmatic Sage

There is Combat Pets which any archetype can use in most situations outside of instances and dungeons. They require a sacrifice in power and when de-spawned, the power sacrificed is returned to the player.

Then there is Class Skill Pets which are summoner summons. These will boost the player and the player can channel through them for power.

The most interesting thing about being a Summoner archetype is the ability to become the summon during siege events. I'm assuming this will be limited to primary summoner archetype? but who knows.

willsummon

Solvryn wrote: »

You made up hypotheticals without even knowing how the class will be designed or knowing what the resource will be, seems like you haven't even read the wiki. Summoner may have some pets for specific classes, but not every class within the Archetype will be pet summons.

There's very little to respond to when you just made up hypotheticals.

I'm not going to budge on being a high skill-high reward class in Summoner and it being a high level strategy, tactical, and knowledge based class. I want a challenge as a veteran player, I do not care if most people suck at the class or are inexperienced to pull it off.

If players want an entry level class they can play with a pet out if they need it; its what its there for.

I did a detailed breakdown of what you are suggesting.

In addition, the example I gave is based on a having played some really badly designed pet classes, such as Guild Wars I Necromancer.

If you believe I misunderstood you, please point out the play style of your suggestions.

I want to have a discussion. Unfortunately, I do not see how what you suggest will work in solo, in PVP, nor in groups and raids.

willsummon

Enigmatic Sage wrote: »

There is Combat Pets which any archetype can use in most situations outside of instances and dungeons. They require a sacrifice in power and when de-spawned, the power sacrificed is returned to the player.

Then there is Class Skill Pets which are summoner summons. These will boost the player and the player can channel through them for power.

The most interesting thing about being a Summoner archetype is the ability to become the summon during siege events. I'm assuming this will be limited to primary summoner archetype? but who knows.

I like all your ideas.

willsummon

JC31 wrote: »

I remember reading on the wiki some where that every class will get a pet. It will not be as strong as a summoner's pet obviously but you can still have a pet. He is a link to pets on the wiki. https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Pets

@willsummon I would guess that not all summoners will not be lumped into a dps roll. From my past experience with summoners they are usually very versatile because their pet can both tank and dps. The summoner may be able to heal themselves, their pet, or their allies such as if you're a necromancer. I would guess an enchanter would have buffs. Enchanter maybe restore mana to your friends. Summoner is most fun to be as a support class that has the power to turn the tide of a battle when things are going wrong. We could hypothesize but I am not sure how much info has been released yet.

That is the point I have been trying to make. Thank you.

Enigmatic Sage

willsummon wrote: »

Enigmatic Sage wrote: »

There is Combat Pets which any archetype can use in most situations outside of instances and dungeons. They require a sacrifice in power and when de-spawned, the power sacrificed is returned to the player.

Then there is Class Skill Pets which are summoner summons. These will boost the player and the player can channel through them for power.

The most interesting thing about being a Summoner archetype is the ability to become the summon during siege events. I'm assuming this will be limited to primary summoner archetype? but who knows.

I like all your ideas.

That's not really my idea's. It's literally in the wiki lol. To be honest, I don't like the idea of universal combat pets. I also find most summoner classes just boring to play across many games. Spamming spells with your thumb up the ass usually.

Solvryn

willsummon wrote: »

Solvryn wrote: »

You made up hypotheticals without even knowing how the class will be designed or knowing what the resource will be, seems like you haven't even read the wiki. Summoner may have some pets for specific classes, but not every class within the Archetype will be pet summons.

There's very little to respond to when you just made up hypotheticals.

I'm not going to budge on being a high skill-high reward class in Summoner and it being a high level strategy, tactical, and knowledge based class. I want a challenge as a veteran player, I do not care if most people suck at the class or are inexperienced to pull it off.

If players want an entry level class they can play with a pet out if they need it; its what its there for.

I did a detailed breakdown of what you are suggesting.

In addition, the example I gave is based on a having played some really badly designed pet classes, such as Guild Wars I Necromancer.

If you believe I misunderstood you, please point out the play style of your suggestions.

I want to have a discussion. Unfortunately, I do not see how what you suggest will work in solo, in PVP, nor in groups and raids.

Fabricating hypotheticals when you aren't even the addressing the fact that I am not talking about pet summons is probably where your comprehension falls short otherwise you're deliberately ignoring that I like the goal intrepid has set to have something other than pet summons beyond the tool-kit.

Like weapons, spirits, etc. We have zero clue how they will behave.

I already voiced my disdain for Guild Wars 1 necromancer.

I also think Warcraft Unholy Death Knight and Warlock are bad summoners.

What you want is something akin to Beastmaster from WoW, Demonologist from WoW, or Spiritmaster from Aion. Easy to use, low skill classes. Mechanist is another example of so easy any new player could do it.

I'd like to avoid that all together.

I've been playing MMOs since the early 00's and I have heard this, "In my experience" bit many times over. I am interested in seeing Summoner become the class for vets like me whose experience dwarves most players.

A class that we can chase mastery on because we've already been in MMOs long enough we'll blow through the combat and the content.

willsummon

"Fabricating hypotheticals when you aren't even the addressing the fact that I am not talking about pet summons is probably where your comprehension falls short otherwise you're deliberately ignoring that I like the goal intrepid has set to have something other than pet summons beyond the tool-kit."

To clarify. Have you been supporting the idea of a pet class with only temp pets? Yes or no.

"I also think Warcraft Unholy Death Knight and Warlock are bad summoners."

I always preferred Frozen Death Knight without the pet.

WoW Warlocks are simple to learn, but hard to master.

"What you want is something akin to Beastmaster from WoW, Demonologist from WoW, or Spiritmaster from Aion. Easy to use, low skill classes. Mechanist is another example of so easy any new player could do it."

Actually, what I would like to see, at least for one or two of the Summoner classes is something like the system used for the Age of Conan Necromancer, only with better agro control on the pets.

"I've been playing MMOs since the early 00's and I have heard this, "In my experience" bit many times over. I am interested in seeing Summoner become the class for vets like me whose experience dwarves most players."

I probably match your level of experience, but that is off topic.

Also, like you, I want to see how the Summoner and the classes attached to the Summoner turn out.

"A class that we can chase mastery on because we've already been in MMOs long enough we'll blow through the combat and the content."

Like myself, you know the basic rules of fantasy games. You know the basics of what to expect. Regardless of what archetype you play, it is likely you will quickly go through the content. That comes from experience.

JC31

Solvryn wrote: »

willsummon wrote: »

Solvryn wrote: »

You made up hypotheticals without even knowing how the class will be designed or knowing what the resource will be, seems like you haven't even read the wiki. Summoner may have some pets for specific classes, but not every class within the Archetype will be pet summons.

There's very little to respond to when you just made up hypotheticals.

I'm not going to budge on being a high skill-high reward class in Summoner and it being a high level strategy, tactical, and knowledge based class. I want a challenge as a veteran player, I do not care if most people suck at the class or are inexperienced to pull it off.

If players want an entry level class they can play with a pet out if they need it; its what its there for.

I did a detailed breakdown of what you are suggesting.

In addition, the example I gave is based on a having played some really badly designed pet classes, such as Guild Wars I Necromancer.

If you believe I misunderstood you, please point out the play style of your suggestions.

I want to have a discussion. Unfortunately, I do not see how what you suggest will work in solo, in PVP, nor in groups and raids.

Fabricating hypotheticals when you aren't even the addressing the fact that I am not talking about pet summons is probably where your comprehension falls short otherwise you're deliberately ignoring that I like the goal intrepid has set to have something other than pet summons beyond the tool-kit.

Like weapons, spirits, etc. We have zero clue how they will behave.

I already voiced my disdain for Guild Wars 1 necromancer.

I also think Warcraft Unholy Death Knight and Warlock are bad summoners.

What you want is something akin to Beastmaster from WoW, Demonologist from WoW, or Spiritmaster from Aion. Easy to use, low skill classes. Mechanist is another example of so easy any new player could do it.

I'd like to avoid that all together.

I've been playing MMOs since the early 00's and I have heard this, "In my experience" bit many times over. I am interested in seeing Summoner become the class for vets like me whose experience dwarves most players.

A class that we can chase mastery on because we've already been in MMOs long enough we'll blow through the combat and the content.

You sound like you're applying for a job or in a job interview dude. I am not going to say it's just a game because it's not JUST A GAME it's an extra life!!

Solvryn

willsummon wrote: »

"Fabricating hypotheticals when you aren't even the addressing the fact that I am not talking about pet summons is probably where your comprehension falls short otherwise you're deliberately ignoring that I like the goal intrepid has set to have something other than pet summons beyond the tool-kit."

To clarify. Have you been supporting the idea of a pet class with only temp pets? Yes or no.

"I also think Warcraft Unholy Death Knight and Warlock are bad summoners."

I always preferred Frozen Death Knight without the pet.

WoW Warlocks are simple to learn, but hard to master.

"What you want is something akin to Beastmaster from WoW, Demonologist from WoW, or Spiritmaster from Aion. Easy to use, low skill classes. Mechanist is another example of so easy any new player could do it."

Actually, what I would like to see, at least for one or two of the Summoner classes is something like the system used for the Age of Conan Necromancer, only with better agro control on the pets.

"I've been playing MMOs since the early 00's and I have heard this, "In my experience" bit many times over. I am interested in seeing Summoner become the class for vets like me whose experience dwarves most players."

I probably match your level of experience, but that is off topic.

Also, like you, I want to see how the Summoner and the classes attached to the Summoner turn out.

"A class that we can chase mastery on because we've already been in MMOs long enough we'll blow through the combat and the content."

Like myself, you know the basic rules of fantasy games. You know the basics of what to expect. Regardless of what archetype you play, it is likely you will quickly go through the content. That comes from experience.

I have indeed been supporting the idea of temp Summons; that is because the possibility of us having our Summoner specific resource constantly requiring us managing our summons; summons, not just pets.

I too, prefer the other two Death Knight classes over Unholy DK. Because I found Unholy DK incredibly boring.

I do not care if Necro gets pets, I can avoid playing necro, I do care if the entire archetype gets reduce to a pet trope. Pet classes carry a stigma, I do not want Summoner to easy to learn hard to master, I want something for the veterans like me.

For context, I have been playing MMOS since UO/Asherons Call/Shadowbane/DAoC, I've seen many people come here and try to talk down to someone like they know more than the other. I don't think I need to post my credentials for a brag that lacks humility.

I'm sure people think they know more than veterans, I'm also sure people can make a full of themselves without any help. That'll show itself in due time.

The only thing you and I disagree on in reality then, is you just want pets for summoner, I do not. They already have a pet system in the game, I want to see a variety of summons and not just "pet summons".

willsummon

"I have indeed been supporting the idea of temp Summons; that is because the possibility of us having our Summoner specific resource constantly requiring us managing our summons; summons, not just pets."

Thank you for clarifying that.

"I too, prefer the other two Death Knight classes over Unholy DK. Because I found Unholy DK incredibly boring."

I agree the Unholy DK was boring.

"I do not care if Necro gets pets, I can avoid playing necro, I do care if the entire archetype gets reduce to a pet trope. Pet classes carry a stigma, I do not want Summoner to easy to learn hard to master, I want something for the veterans like me."

Okay.

"For context, I have been playing MMOS since UO/Asherons Call/Shadowbane/DAoC, I've seen many people come here and try to talk down to someone like they know more than the other. I don't think I need to post my credentials for a brag that lacks humility."

I do not like people taking that approach either.

"I'm sure people think they know more than veterans, I'm also sure people can make a full of themselves without any help. That'll show itself in due time."

We will have to wait and see.

"The only thing you and I disagree on in reality then, is you just want pets for summoner, I do not. They already have a pet system in the game, I want to see a variety of summons and not just "pet summons"."

This is where you misunderstand myself. I want a summoner with pets and magic caster as an archetype, with that various classes abilities depending on their mix.

I do believe that the mage shown in the AoC videos is being used to also test some of the Summoner magical spells. Specifically the water and earth element spells. Water and Earth are two elements closely related to life and creation of beings.

SirChancelot

willsummon wrote: »

There is no such as a complicated roll filler in groups and raids.

I strongly disagree.
A jack of all trades master of none is exactly that. Using sum/sum as an example they are flexible for any aspect with the right summon and knowledge. No they won't be the best at it but they can shift around to shore up gaps in the party as needed. That requires the knowledge of what summon to use and when for what you are fighting.

I picture playing a good summoner to feel like playing MTG. I have these creatures to choose from, which one would be best for the scenario I am in right now and what would be good to play next. In group content that would play like this. I know a big aoe wave is coming from the boss I'm going to use a guardian'esque summon to absorb some damage or apply a protective buff, and then I'll follow up with a healing summon to help the healer recover the party quickly after. Then cycle back do damage or support for DPS phase.

That could very much have the capacity for high skill cap gameplay for group settings.

Enigmatic Sage

SirChancelot wrote: »

willsummon wrote: »

There is no such as a complicated roll filler in groups and raids.

I strongly disagree.
A jack of all trades master of none is exactly that. Using sum/sum as an example they are flexible for any aspect with the right summon and knowledge. No they won't be the best at it but they can shift around to shore up gaps in the party as needed. That requires the knowledge of what summon to use and when for what you are fighting.

I picture playing a good summoner to feel like playing MTG. I have these creatures to choose from, which one would be best for the scenario I am in right now and what would be good to play next. In group content that would play like this. I know a big aoe wave is coming from the boss I'm going to use a guardian'esque summon to absorb some damage or apply a protective buff, and then I'll follow up with a healing summon to help the healer recover the party quickly after. Then cycle back do damage or support for DPS phase.

That could very much have the capacity for high skill cap gameplay for group settings.

Quick question, how is using defensives a high skill cap? Is that not just how many archetypes essentially work regardless? pop a defensive for a soak, use a personal heal or potion. To me that's just essentially common sense in gaming. Usually the skill cap would come from rotation management and positioning for optimal mechanic playstyle and combat synergy.

It is quite hard to get summoners right in my opinion as many games follow the same formula for them. I would consider them over a mage if they actually had more risk and complexity to them in relation.

Solvryn

SirChancelot wrote: »

willsummon wrote: »

There is no such as a complicated roll filler in groups and raids.

I strongly disagree.
A jack of all trades master of none is exactly that. Using sum/sum as an example they are flexible for any aspect with the right summon and knowledge. No they won't be the best at it but they can shift around to shore up gaps in the party as needed. That requires the knowledge of what summon to use and when for what you are fighting.

I picture playing a good summoner to feel like playing MTG. I have these creatures to choose from, which one would be best for the scenario I am in right now and what would be good to play next. In group content that would play like this. I know a big aoe wave is coming from the boss I'm going to use a guardian'esque summon to absorb some damage or apply a protective buff, and then I'll follow up with a healing summon to help the healer recover the party quickly after. Then cycle back do damage or support for DPS phase.

That could very much have the capacity for high skill cap gameplay for group settings.

Aye and to me pets will be detrimental to certain roles rather than other means such as summon weapons etc.

That’s why the summoned variety needs to be there.

Solvryn

willsummon wrote: »

"I have indeed been supporting the idea of temp Summons; that is because the possibility of us having our Summoner specific resource constantly requiring us managing our summons; summons, not just pets."

Thank you for clarifying that.

"I too, prefer the other two Death Knight classes over Unholy DK. Because I found Unholy DK incredibly boring."

I agree the Unholy DK was boring.

"I do not care if Necro gets pets, I can avoid playing necro, I do care if the entire archetype gets reduce to a pet trope. Pet classes carry a stigma, I do not want Summoner to easy to learn hard to master, I want something for the veterans like me."

Okay.

"For context, I have been playing MMOS since UO/Asherons Call/Shadowbane/DAoC, I've seen many people come here and try to talk down to someone like they know more than the other. I don't think I need to post my credentials for a brag that lacks humility."

I do not like people taking that approach either.

"I'm sure people think they know more than veterans, I'm also sure people can make a full of themselves without any help. That'll show itself in due time."

We will have to wait and see.

"The only thing you and I disagree on in reality then, is you just want pets for summoner, I do not. They already have a pet system in the game, I want to see a variety of summons and not just "pet summons"."

This is where you misunderstand myself. I want a summoner with pets and magic caster as an archetype, with that various classes abilities depending on their mix.

I do believe that the mage shown in the AoC videos is being used to also test some of the Summoner magical spells. Specifically the water and earth element spells. Water and Earth are two elements closely related to life and creation of beings.

What you want does not work effectively in melee. Pets are a burden to melee gameplay. They’re also a burden to tanking. They will always be sun optimal.

They work in a ranged perspective, they will barely work in the healing support line.

Summoner is going to fill roles, that’s its purpose. That’s why people need to open up their minds to what roll fill is.

Enigmatic Sage

Solvryn wrote: »

willsummon wrote: »

"I have indeed been supporting the idea of temp Summons; that is because the possibility of us having our Summoner specific resource constantly requiring us managing our summons; summons, not just pets."

Thank you for clarifying that.

"I too, prefer the other two Death Knight classes over Unholy DK. Because I found Unholy DK incredibly boring."

I agree the Unholy DK was boring.

"I do not care if Necro gets pets, I can avoid playing necro, I do care if the entire archetype gets reduce to a pet trope. Pet classes carry a stigma, I do not want Summoner to easy to learn hard to master, I want something for the veterans like me."

Okay.

"For context, I have been playing MMOS since UO/Asherons Call/Shadowbane/DAoC, I've seen many people come here and try to talk down to someone like they know more than the other. I don't think I need to post my credentials for a brag that lacks humility."

I do not like people taking that approach either.

"I'm sure people think they know more than veterans, I'm also sure people can make a full of themselves without any help. That'll show itself in due time."

We will have to wait and see.

"The only thing you and I disagree on in reality then, is you just want pets for summoner, I do not. They already have a pet system in the game, I want to see a variety of summons and not just "pet summons"."

This is where you misunderstand myself. I want a summoner with pets and magic caster as an archetype, with that various classes abilities depending on their mix.

I do believe that the mage shown in the AoC videos is being used to also test some of the Summoner magical spells. Specifically the water and earth element spells. Water and Earth are two elements closely related to life and creation of beings.

What you want does not work effectively in melee. Pets are a burden to melee gameplay. They’re also a burden to tanking. They will always be sun optimal.

They work in a ranged perspective, they will barely work in the healing support line.

Summoner is going to fill roles, that’s its purpose. That’s why people need to open up their minds to what roll fill is.

So the summoner is supposed to be a filler role...

Hypothetically,
Why would I want to bring a Summoner-tank over any Tank primary?
Why would I want to bring a Summoner-cleric over any Cleric primary?

Dont really need to explain the other 5 damage roles...

I can see them acting as a supporting role in that sense for Tank and Cleric primaries where they need a small boost perhaps but a Bard primary could also do the same. Depending on augment schools, it's quite possible any secondary archetype with tank or cleric could do that hypothetically.

Depraved

Solvryn wrote: »

willsummon wrote: »

Solvryn wrote: »

Broaden your mind about *summoning* things into Verra.

I personally do not want to see Wild Blade with any pet summons as a melee pet class sucks in any game it's done in. In reality, I do not want to see permanent summons at all.

Shamans in WoW were a type of summoner, Druids in WoW and Diablo were a type of summoner. Nightblade, Sorc, Warden, Necromancer, and an Arcanist are a type of Summoner in ESO.

Permanent pets are a must for summoners. But, having some temp pets from damage procs or special abilities are nice.

I don't agree and like I said before, I do not want to see summoner being the entry level class; I rather see a new spin on it where it becomes a high skill ceiling archetype that requires knowledge of the other archetypes in order to play effectively.

you can still do that while having permanent summons. they change based on your 2nd archetype, while still being permanent (until death or a very very long timer) when you summon them @_@

Solvryn

Enigmatic Sage wrote: »

Solvryn wrote: »

willsummon wrote: »

"I have indeed been supporting the idea of temp Summons; that is because the possibility of us having our Summoner specific resource constantly requiring us managing our summons; summons, not just pets."

Thank you for clarifying that.

"I too, prefer the other two Death Knight classes over Unholy DK. Because I found Unholy DK incredibly boring."

I agree the Unholy DK was boring.

"I do not care if Necro gets pets, I can avoid playing necro, I do care if the entire archetype gets reduce to a pet trope. Pet classes carry a stigma, I do not want Summoner to easy to learn hard to master, I want something for the veterans like me."

Okay.

"For context, I have been playing MMOS since UO/Asherons Call/Shadowbane/DAoC, I've seen many people come here and try to talk down to someone like they know more than the other. I don't think I need to post my credentials for a brag that lacks humility."

I do not like people taking that approach either.

"I'm sure people think they know more than veterans, I'm also sure people can make a full of themselves without any help. That'll show itself in due time."

We will have to wait and see.

"The only thing you and I disagree on in reality then, is you just want pets for summoner, I do not. They already have a pet system in the game, I want to see a variety of summons and not just "pet summons"."

This is where you misunderstand myself. I want a summoner with pets and magic caster as an archetype, with that various classes abilities depending on their mix.

I do believe that the mage shown in the AoC videos is being used to also test some of the Summoner magical spells. Specifically the water and earth element spells. Water and Earth are two elements closely related to life and creation of beings.

What you want does not work effectively in melee. Pets are a burden to melee gameplay. They’re also a burden to tanking. They will always be sun optimal.

They work in a ranged perspective, they will barely work in the healing support line.

Summoner is going to fill roles, that’s its purpose. That’s why people need to open up their minds to what roll fill is.

So the summoner is supposed to be a filler role...

Hypothetically,
Why would I want to bring a Summoner-tank over any Tank primary?
Why would I want to bring a Summoner-cleric over any Cleric primary?

Dont really need to explain the other 5 damage roles...

I can see them acting as a supporting role in that sense for Tank and Cleric primaries where they need a small boost perhaps but a Bard primary could also do the same. Depending on augment schools, it's quite possible any secondary archetype with tank or cleric could do that hypothetically.

They’ll be able to main tank and main heal or off tank or off heal. They’re the literal Swiss army knife of Ashes.

Raven016

Summons should not be as good as the main classes at tanking, healing or dd. But having this disadvantage of not being as good as the others, they should get some other advantages.
Maybe not combat related.
For example summoners should be better at breeding creatures, mages at alchemy, tank at creating armor, thieves at reaching places others cannot, bards at influencing NPCs when talking to them.

Enigmatic Sage

Solvryn wrote: »

Enigmatic Sage wrote: »

Solvryn wrote: »

willsummon wrote: »

"I have indeed been supporting the idea of temp Summons; that is because the possibility of us having our Summoner specific resource constantly requiring us managing our summons; summons, not just pets."

Thank you for clarifying that.

"I too, prefer the other two Death Knight classes over Unholy DK. Because I found Unholy DK incredibly boring."

I agree the Unholy DK was boring.

"I do not care if Necro gets pets, I can avoid playing necro, I do care if the entire archetype gets reduce to a pet trope. Pet classes carry a stigma, I do not want Summoner to easy to learn hard to master, I want something for the veterans like me."

Okay.

"For context, I have been playing MMOS since UO/Asherons Call/Shadowbane/DAoC, I've seen many people come here and try to talk down to someone like they know more than the other. I don't think I need to post my credentials for a brag that lacks humility."

I do not like people taking that approach either.

"I'm sure people think they know more than veterans, I'm also sure people can make a full of themselves without any help. That'll show itself in due time."

We will have to wait and see.

"The only thing you and I disagree on in reality then, is you just want pets for summoner, I do not. They already have a pet system in the game, I want to see a variety of summons and not just "pet summons"."

This is where you misunderstand myself. I want a summoner with pets and magic caster as an archetype, with that various classes abilities depending on their mix.

I do believe that the mage shown in the AoC videos is being used to also test some of the Summoner magical spells. Specifically the water and earth element spells. Water and Earth are two elements closely related to life and creation of beings.

What you want does not work effectively in melee. Pets are a burden to melee gameplay. They’re also a burden to tanking. They will always be sun optimal.

They work in a ranged perspective, they will barely work in the healing support line.

Summoner is going to fill roles, that’s its purpose. That’s why people need to open up their minds to what roll fill is.

So the summoner is supposed to be a filler role...

Hypothetically,
Why would I want to bring a Summoner-tank over any Tank primary?
Why would I want to bring a Summoner-cleric over any Cleric primary?

Dont really need to explain the other 5 damage roles...

I can see them acting as a supporting role in that sense for Tank and Cleric primaries where they need a small boost perhaps but a Bard primary could also do the same. Depending on augment schools, it's quite possible any secondary archetype with tank or cleric could do that hypothetically.

They’ll be able to main tank and main heal or off tank or off heal. They’re the literal Swiss army knife of Ashes.

Sounds fucking horrible to me especially using a swiss army knife as an example or metaphor. If theyre as good as the other roles then there is no point bringing any other class or role to group formation. Literally just stack summoners and have 24 pets out...
Also, this would just create the situation that summoner archetypes essentially just become solo classes where they just solo a majority of the content similiar to how most pets are broken as fuck in most mmorpg's by out tanking actual tanks... and now apparently healers lol.

seems quite half baked to me.

Ehrgeiz

Solvryn wrote: »

literal Swiss army knife of Ashes.

As an outdoor fan, fisher and hunter I say this is the most useless und overraterd tool ever. But thats an another story...


In my opinion, pets should be permanent but every class should be easy to learn, hard to master.

Depraved

i want them to be a mix of the elven elder and the summoner in l2 and summoner in aion

Solvryn

Raven016 wrote: »

Summons should not be as good as the main classes at tanking, healing or dd. But having this disadvantage of not being as good as the others, they should get some other advantages.
Maybe not combat related.
For example summoners should be better at breeding creatures, mages at alchemy, tank at creating armor, thieves at reaching places others cannot, bards at influencing NPCs when talking to them.

uhh?

What?

Solvryn

Enigmatic Sage wrote: »

Solvryn wrote: »

Enigmatic Sage wrote: »

Solvryn wrote: »

willsummon wrote: »

"I have indeed been supporting the idea of temp Summons; that is because the possibility of us having our Summoner specific resource constantly requiring us managing our summons; summons, not just pets."

Thank you for clarifying that.

"I too, prefer the other two Death Knight classes over Unholy DK. Because I found Unholy DK incredibly boring."

I agree the Unholy DK was boring.

"I do not care if Necro gets pets, I can avoid playing necro, I do care if the entire archetype gets reduce to a pet trope. Pet classes carry a stigma, I do not want Summoner to easy to learn hard to master, I want something for the veterans like me."

Okay.

"For context, I have been playing MMOS since UO/Asherons Call/Shadowbane/DAoC, I've seen many people come here and try to talk down to someone like they know more than the other. I don't think I need to post my credentials for a brag that lacks humility."

I do not like people taking that approach either.

"I'm sure people think they know more than veterans, I'm also sure people can make a full of themselves without any help. That'll show itself in due time."

We will have to wait and see.

"The only thing you and I disagree on in reality then, is you just want pets for summoner, I do not. They already have a pet system in the game, I want to see a variety of summons and not just "pet summons"."

This is where you misunderstand myself. I want a summoner with pets and magic caster as an archetype, with that various classes abilities depending on their mix.

I do believe that the mage shown in the AoC videos is being used to also test some of the Summoner magical spells. Specifically the water and earth element spells. Water and Earth are two elements closely related to life and creation of beings.

What you want does not work effectively in melee. Pets are a burden to melee gameplay. They’re also a burden to tanking. They will always be sun optimal.

They work in a ranged perspective, they will barely work in the healing support line.

Summoner is going to fill roles, that’s its purpose. That’s why people need to open up their minds to what roll fill is.

So the summoner is supposed to be a filler role...

Hypothetically,
Why would I want to bring a Summoner-tank over any Tank primary?
Why would I want to bring a Summoner-cleric over any Cleric primary?

Dont really need to explain the other 5 damage roles...

I can see them acting as a supporting role in that sense for Tank and Cleric primaries where they need a small boost perhaps but a Bard primary could also do the same. Depending on augment schools, it's quite possible any secondary archetype with tank or cleric could do that hypothetically.

They’ll be able to main tank and main heal or off tank or off heal. They’re the literal Swiss army knife of Ashes.

Sounds fucking horrible to me especially using a swiss army knife as an example or metaphor. If theyre as good as the other roles then there is no point bringing any other class or role to group formation. Literally just stack summoners and have 24 pets out...
Also, this would just create the situation that summoner archetypes essentially just become solo classes where they just solo a majority of the content similiar to how most pets are broken as fuck in most mmorpg's by out tanking actual tanks... and now apparently healers lol.

seems quite half baked to me.

Not every spec in the Archetype is getting a traditional pet. To clarify, summons =/= pet. Some specs are getting weapons, some specs are invoking spirits.

You can read the wiki to see the plans for summoner as directly quoted by Steven.

And I hope they keep it that way.

Which is why I hope Intrepid ignores most of the "make Summoner pet class feedback" and takes the feedback that fits within their vision.

Their vision for the class is much more interesting than some pet trash like Demonology warlock from WoW or Spiritmaster from Aion.