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To get the quickest updates regarding Alpha Two, connect your Discord and Intrepid accounts here.
Comments
I have read it several times to be honest but this role filler sounds horrible. No range tanks but summoner tanks allowed lol..
Their vision of the class does not sound promising especially with not much to back it up but hype train hypotheticals.
You want summoners to be as strong as tanks or healers?
Pets can be very good for melee with the right pets. If the group is melee heavy, the summoned pets could be range damage and healing/buffing. If the group's tank needs a little help, a tanking pet can be used. If the group is range heavy, then melee pets.
See this is why I'm waiting for more on augments. If a sum/tank isn't good enough to tank then you'll just need to take a tank/X ... If that's always going to be the case then I see things definitely boiling down to certain 'BiS' class combos and summoner will never be that.
A sum/mag will never be as good as a mage/X
A cleric/cleric will always be a better pure healer than a sum/cleric or cleric/X
I really want to see how much sway a secondary archtype has on the primary....
I think a summoner/cleric should be able to fill the gap better than a rogue/cleric or ranger/cleric. They already have access to summons that can support even without the cleric aspect. Soif they are a sum/cleric and they heavily lean into it I think they should be able to heal just as good as any cleric/x, but maybe not as good as a cleric/cleric.
Yes. But without writing a book I'm trying to imply that the summoner should have a wider range of those reactions and counters to choose from them other classes. Ashes isn't going to be like GW2 where everyone can heal themselves, or WoW where everyone has defensive/CC breaks.
If you're going to cite the wiki you should keep in mind they have also said
Summons will exist until another summon is cast, the summon is killed, or the summoner logs off.[14]
Even if they are summoning spirit weapons instead of demons, that still sounds permanent.
Yeah, this whole secondary archetypes for augment schools is going to be a hot debate again for all primary + cleric or tank. The secondary archetype should NEVER out play the primary version of itself.
Summoner + cleric (necromancer) should not out heal a cleric + summoner (shaman).
you probably wont need to write a book lol.
It's pretty standard for most class or archetype designs. If your primary is summoner, you'll essentially be using your summons either directly or indirectly. If you're a summoner secondary, in most situations wont be using pets but summons (huge difference).
If you pick a tank as a secondary, chances are you'll have access to more defensive options. I dont really see why making summoner different is a smart idea at all. There's much better ways to design a summoner class in my opinion but if that's what they're going for...
We have 8 primary cleric options via 8 secondary archetypes for augmentations.
We have 8 primary Bard (support) options via 8 secondary archetypes for augmentations.
If anything, the primary summoner should be support role at most specifically for tanks and clerics as secondary combinations to them.
Other wise, every primary with a secondary for tank, cleric or bard is expecting to be a 1:1 replacement for those archetypes. Where's the mage tank? where's the ranger tank? where's the rogue tank? where's the cleric tank? where's the bard tank?
The mentality of those players are going to expect every one of them to be viable options creating an addition 7 more tanks and 7 more healer options when there doesn't need to be all because a summoner can be the ALL-IN-ONE archetype making class choice redundant losing identity as you can just play the game with only summoners... summoners of creation lol.
I don't really need to reiterate the possibilities of broken ass pets/summons like other summoner classes in games. But who knows.. maybe that is their goal.
See this is where I disagree, I don't think that a cleric/summoner HAS to be better than a summoner/cleric. I think they should both be able to fill the party role of healer IF that is what they are geared and spec'ed into. Obviously they will play different and have different strengths and weaknesses, but that should be true across all cleric combinations.
I think that the gear stats, and skill point allocation should play just as much if not more into how good your character is at a role than just primary/secondary archtype choice.
I would like to see the primary dictate the core style of skills, the secondary control the flavor of how they accomplish those things, and that's it. I think the skill point allocation and stats from gear should control what you're effective at.
If you put points heavily in healing stats or healing augment effects, that should make you an effective healer.
This gives more control to the players on character creation and would make it harder to have a "best healer". I want to be a summoner/cleric and use it as a healer... Build a character for that and now my summons are skeleton shield bearers that protect people, or ghosts that follow and heal people. But if I put all my skill points into damage rather than cleric healing augments now I'm a necromancer that has offensive summons.
So you disagree to essentially agree? lol
Well the way the game is currently designed is your primary archetype provides you with your abilities and secondary to augment schools. Meaning a tank primary regardless of secondary is a tank at its core.
My preference for summons not being permanent is my preference, but I did state that.
Just because summoners can role fill doesn’t mean it’ll be easy.
All that means is that a tank primary has these skills available to it for it to choose from... And a secondary has these potential effects to provide on those skills (the full extent that those augments can have, or how much they can change an ability is still unknown). Neither of those HAVE to lock the role the character fills in a party.
Think of a paladin in DnD, makes a great tank, sure. But you can allocate points and get weapons designed to make him a melee DPS instead of tank. I hope ashes of creation can try to capture as much of that tabletop RPG player agency as possible.
who said anything about that?
Yeah, which means a tank-tank would essentially be Tank with Tank augments theoretically to boost their core tank abilities further.
A summoner-tank would essentially be a summoner with tank augments. Doesn't and shouldn't make them a tank. Just because a DPS has access to heals or defensives doesn't technically make an ideal class role. Same goes for a DPS having cleric augments.
A tank with mage augments would make their abilities adjust to magic schools where as a Mage tank would augment their magic abilities essentially defensively.
Many RPG's are derived from table top gaming. It's essentially where they got their inspiration from. If they really wanted to capture the "magic" of it, classes wouldn't really exist outside of stat allocation and equipment then.
Well, I hope it isn't that cut and dry. I am hoping that stat points and gear means more than just primary/secondary. And that you can shift the role of a character.
If it is mostly decided by archtype there will be more easily defined best combos for certain roles. If that's the case a lot of groups are just going to be tank/tank, cleric/cleric, and 6 mage/mage or rangers... Whichever can pump the most raw DMG.
I wouldn't call it cut and dry considering there could be several paths for augment schools. The primary archetype and role is quite crucial and critical to your classes core design regardless of stats, gear and abilities.
A summoner-tank will be using pets that could get defensive bonuses and maybe even a grit mechanic. If your pets are stronger than a tank archetype you're essentially the power of two players in theory which is why most pet classes in other mmorpg's are broken.
Primary summoners generally get pets and summons as I mentioned but a Tank-summoner wont get pets... they'll get summoner things to enhance their primary. You could in theory be getting armoured summons with defensive abilities such as intercept, block etc. It's why your role will be more of a support in my opinion rather than a replacement.
A Tank-summoner could get something like an ethereal form or shapes engulfing the tank similar to a small scale Susanoo-like from Naruto which may be too cool for this game. Considering how secondary summoners can vary across the board, there may be similar options for damage roles or support.
who knows.. may be too cool for AoC
Or a Brood Warden will be getting bugs that aid in the utility of tanking such as CC, while the Warden themselves directly gets something like Carapace Armor that allows them to block.
Or they may get player based summons that make them big like abs give them Chitinous armor and shield.
It’s perfect that way for me.
quite possible, your pets are your primary extension as summoner primary. You could even get tank pets like this
The word brood doesn't technically have to directly relate to insects at all. Brood can mean several things. Could relate to an abundance, the care and nurture methods.
Mouth Brooding
Gastric Brooding
Arachnid Brooding
Brood of Ducklings
That is gross, lol!! Chicks are cute though..lmao.
lol, nature and evolution is crazy. Would make for interesting summons if they also had broods attached to them.
As for bard-summoner (song caller) I could see ethereal music, instruments and potentially dancing spirits being summoned (not as pet though).
For example, primary Summoner and secondary Cleric is a Necromancer. Though, a primary Cleric and a secondary Summoner is a Shaman.
I figured the Brood Warden would be a tank with bug pets.
While the Keeper would be like an Death Knight with lifetaps and a single pet.
you seem to know your stuff. I personally loved necromancers in gw1. they could have like 16 minions but had to keep sacrificing their health to keep the minions alive via blood magic. The longer the minion lives, the quicker its health degenerates til it eventually dies or gets replaced (need a fresh corpse to do so)
A bit overpowered in PvE.
I personally mained a ritualist which was more of a summoner class. (necromancers need bodies, summoners don't) I loved loved loved my class, summoning spirits that do all sorts of different things.
A good summoner class is all about preparation. Since the summoner themselves should do little to no personal fighting (gw1 nailed this aspect) but rather focus on their summons time and placement. As i got more skilled even high end content could be solo-able with proper use of my spirits. If a summoner is encouraged to jump into the middle of a fight before preparing then the summoner class was done wrong..
Mesmer was also a really cool and unique class. I don't like the idea of "perma pets" Except for like a ranger and his tamed animal. I also dont even like them being called pets but thats a dif issue.
The con to summoner class is, if you get caught before you can prepare... welll... you're dead but with preparation.... you are a powerful force
I think Keeper is gonna summon walls, like it did in pre alpha footage.
I'm pretty sure that is just a core tank ability
Aye I’ve always played variations of classes that fit into a Summoner thematic.
I don’t agree on little to no personal fighting, Udyr from league of legends is in the Summoner mold and he fights. Druids and Shamans are in the summoner mold and they fight.
I love that about them.
Mesmer is definitely in the summoner mold though its ArenaNets version of a bard.
There are many ways to implement summons. As there are many examples.
It will always be good to have a summoner because it could replace any team member if one leaves. And we don't know in advance who drops, assuming teams are created spontaneously between strangers.
The difference will be if the fight stays comfortable or not. With summoner will be harder to tank or to stay alive, each other class will have to take aggro and damage.
Summoner is a really useful class even if cannot replace well any other.