how and why would it be better? how are you measuring that? are you implying that if they build the augment system the base classes will feel incomplete? that makes no sense. building one system doesnt mean you neglect another one.
In the sense that the class fantasy of the augmented archetype will feel incomplete. I feel like they should focus on the base archetype and its fantasy. Then make new classes in the future to make different feeling classes and builds to fill some other class fantasy. And I in current system, adding new archetypes will be a huge time investment and make things even more complicated and bring big balance issues if not done correct.
1- and let me tell you that if your concern is time, money and effort, making 2-4 new classes from scratch is much more money, time and effort than changing some properties in some skills. so what you said makes no sense to me.
To me it make sense since creating a new class that stands on its own will be easier than creating and balancing augmented spells that is related to every other archetype (this is only based on feeling and nothing else xD). Yes both takes time but I feel like creating and balancing 280-320 abilities for every class will take longer than creating a new class with 35-40 spells.
2- people will stack classes regardless. if you have 10-12 classes, people will pick the strongest for the party anyways. they are balancing around having 1 of each main archetype in the party. if they added more archetypes right now, they would have to go back to the drawing board and figure out what they are going to do now with parties. thats more time, money and effort
Yes people will stack classes, 100%. From what I have seen they have said that they won't balance for 1v1 and instead focus on group balance, and we have 8, 16 and 40 person groups sizes. So I dont think they only look at 8 man party with one of each archetype when balancing. And that would be weird, since most friend groups and guilds will NOT have an even spread of archetypes. So getting a group with one of each will be very very difficult for the average player.
There is only 8 "classes". Don't believe the "augments will drastically change abilities" until you see it happen on at least a single archetype.
Ashes is a game with 8 classes and parties of 8 people. It's a perfect fit.
Yeah that's why I kind of feel like they shouldn't even bother with the arguments and focus on the base archetype and maybe add one or two more for that extra variety.
But the thing is those secondaries will also be 'recycled'. The effects that one archtype has as a secondary will have the same theme of effects being applied to each primary.
There is only 8 "classes". Don't believe the "augments will drastically change abilities" until you see it happen on at least a single archetype.
Ashes is a game with 8 classes and parties of 8 people. It's a perfect fit.
Yeah that's why I kind of feel like they shouldn't even bother with the arguments and focus on the base archetype and maybe add one or two more for that extra variety.
But the thing is those secondaries will also be 'recycled'. The effects that one archtype has as a secondary will have the same theme of effects being applied to each primary.
Well creating a theme for the secondary archetype is easy, the difficult part is implementing it and making it a somewhat balanced and fun ability.
I've seen people talk about WoW as a reference point - it has 12 classes and each one has 2-4 specs, resulting in everyone having two talent trees (the base class talent tree and the spec tree). You basically have around 36 classes with a huge amount of potential variability, and then you have racial bonuses (which aren't really a big deal in current day WoW, but there if you're mage it's very nice to have Gift of Naaru from a Draenei and if you're a Shadow Priest or Affliction Warlock you'll benefit from the Void Elf's Entropic Embrace). In reality there's maybe two builds for each spec that are considered optimised and that's what people use, and that's been the case no matter how balanced the specs are. Considering the way that classes have been described in AoC, I'd make the case that your secondary archetype has a significantly smaller impact than your spec in a game like WoW - no new spells, just for one.
Point being, that having a large number of classes or class-spec combos isn't a new thing. MMOs have been doing it for a while now. And the end result is that the game will be unbalanced. Which is fine. We're not doing sweaty arena 3v3s or playing Dota 2 or something, it's an MMO and open world PvP in MMOs is inherently unbalanced no matter how many or few classes exist or how well they're designed, because numbers and gear are the deciding balancing factor.
We've also seen systems similar to what AoC is pursuing in games like ArcheAge where your class was formed of your base and secondary archetype, though in AA the combo mattered a lot more than what it appears to in AoC. Remains to be seen. From what I can see so far, your secondary archetype will probably have as much impact on your base class as the weapon and armour you decide to use - which is to say, significant. If they weren't up for the task of simply making these systems, I don't think they'd say they're doing it.
Sure, but currently when looking at the database of wow, retail have 423 class abilities while original wow vanilla only have 260.
What AoC is trying to do is +2000 abilities. Sure most of them will be a modification of one spell, but that is still A LOT of spells you need to make and balance.
But if they make it work, then that would be amazing. I'm just not sure it's worth the time and money they need to spend on it. The current classes they have shown looks amazing and I think that they should stick to that and small varieties within the base archetype fantasy.
You are only speaking for yourself again you want a boring class meta. Also you are loosely throwing around the term amazing and to reach what you call amazing is very very low on the bar. Looking any other mmorpg they would have better and more interesting classes if they went with what you wanted and just had very simple classes.
I'm figuring you are new to watching AoC and that is why you are trying to advocate for them to have basic stuff (or are impatient and want the game released earlier). They don't have a infinite budget they have a plan / framework. They have talked abotut his stuff in the pass briefly with how their tool kit works for creating abilities. Effects they make are like legos (that is how the unreal niagara works) and you can take one effect and use it somewhere else and target their rig (feet for example) and scale the fire effect down and tweak it slightly. And right away you have fire at feet and a trail made in less than a day than you can just polish the effect later.
You are doing a mix of a warrior and summoner and need a sword effect. You take one of the swords they made already use a shader on it and now they have a large blue magic summoned feeling sword they can use to replace effects, swapping the sword out with current ones like the hammer. And adjust the way it falls from the sky.
Of course it still is a lot of work regardless but it is their job they have a plan they will figure it out and./or scale some of it back if they fel they need to. This idea you are trying to throw out "They don't have money or time so they should make things basic." Is kind of insulting imo, let them do what they set out to do the best they can.
Yes there are 8 archetypes with 35-40 unique active skills each; and each of these base skills can be modified with one out of 4 augementation school based on the selected "augmentation archetype".
This would sum up to a total of
280-320 unique base skills overall
32 skills that can be created from one base skill
8'960-10'240 active skills in total for Intrepid to design
Has this actually been said? Or is it possible that, of the 35-40 unique skills, a quarter have 2 augment choices and another quarter have 4 augment choices? This would half the work required and still be plenty of variation between archetypes.
Then we would get
280-320 unique base skills overall
8*((1/4)*2)+((1/4)*4)+(1/2)*1) = 16x variations of skills
4480-5120 active skills
And again, if we imagine a skill like Barrage to have 8*4=32 variations, most of these might just be a simple colour palette change and some tweaks on the number side (does fire damage, adds bleed, etc.) Maybe only 3 variations change something about the actual skill that requires new assets.
The majority of the work is developing the initial 300 base skills.
Yes there are 8 archetypes with 35-40 unique active skills each; and each of these base skills can be modified with one out of 4 augementation school based on the selected "augmentation archetype".
This would sum up to a total of
280-320 unique base skills overall
32 skills that can be created from one base skill
8'960-10'240 active skills in total for Intrepid to design
Has this actually been said? Or is it possible that, of the 35-40 unique skills, a quarter have 2 augment choices and another quarter have 4 augment choices? This would half the work required and still be plenty of variation between archetypes.
Then we would get
280-320 unique base skills overall
8*((1/4)*2)+((1/4)*4)+(1/2)*1) = 16x variations of skills
4480-5120 active skills
And again, if we imagine a skill like Barrage to have 8*4=32 variations, most of these might just be a simple colour palette change and some tweaks on the number side (does fire damage, adds bleed, etc.) Maybe only 3 variations change something about the actual skill that requires new assets.
The majority of the work is developing the initial 300 base skills.
According to the Wiki on Augments the total skill number seems to be fairly accurate. (I wish I would have looked it up before rather than do the math myself).
The thing with varying the augment choices is IMO that people would gravitate more towards archetypes that offer more augmenting options, so either Intrepid would have to balance the augment options on all classes or try to somehow adjust the cause when switching to a class with a different numer of augmentation options. The reason being that more options within a class would allow the player who chose that class to have easier, cheaper access to more play style variation and through that strategic advantages. Additionally the necessity for gear adjustment when changing augments within a class would probably be less expensive than switching to a whole new class. So I'm not sure whether Intrepid would do themselves a favor by varying the amounts of possible augments depending on class and/or skill.
I definitely agree that some of the augments might not be very significant and indeed just change the color and maybe the damage type and that would be fine because than in itself could already be a big advantage depending on the type of conflict you are involved in.
And I agree even more that the bulk of the work is creating the base skills from which the augmented versions are being created. So maybe this process has already progressed further than we think. Additionally it is not too far fetched to assume that this also has implications for enemy design. Sure, mobs like spiders might have unique skill sets but humanoid mobs will probably greatly rely on the same type of skills that actual player are also using. It wouldn't make too much sense if a Mob Mage suddenly has completely different magic than other mages in the world, I think that would, to a certain degree even contradict the lore.
Additionally it is not too far fetched to assume that this also has implications for enemy design. Sure, mobs like spiders might have unique skill sets but humanoid mobs will probably greatly rely on the same type of skills that actual player are also using. It wouldn't make too much sense if a Mob Mage suddenly has completely different magic than other mages in the world, I think that would, to a certain degree even contradict the lore.
That's actually a pretty good point. Many mobs could be using abilities/weapons and augments that are identical to the player ones already created. Would definitely save on time and fit the lore.
They basically need to create 1 ability, and then have defined parameters on that ability that react to augment selections. So the hard part might just be creating the complex ability in the first place.
I'm not sure about the wiki answer though. If every ability can have the mage school "teleportation" applied to it, things are going to get crazy.
After seeing the ranger update I'm very confident in IS being able to make some great classes. However, I'm starting to doubt the 64 class model and would rather have around 10-12 well designed and unique classes that is also well balanced (in a group play setting).
Not supposed to be " actually 64 different Classes ", though.
More like All 8 Archetypes - can have later on Traits of ONE - other - Class.
8 Times 8 makes 64, easy as that.
But for Example a " Tank " - who later on gets the Subclass " Rogue ",
will not the same as for Example a " Rogue " - who later speccs/skills as his Subclass " Tank ".
It will be more like the still firm Classes they are - with some passive or active Traits of some other Class. So there is no need to worry, that the Game and Gameplay will be completely overwhelmed by an insane Amount of totally different Classes.
64 different classes would be cool, but it will take a lot of work/time and money to make all those classes feel unique, have depth in its gameplay and be a viable option for PvP or PvE.
Yes, the biggest hurdle is to create a good base archetype, but making the second archetype feel important and impactful will still be a HUGE hurdle and a big time investment. I'm convinced that IS could make it happen, but I'm not sure if it's worth it?
For the whole Sake of Freedom, Freedom of Fantasy - and "Fun" - believe me. It shall be worth it.
I for Example plan to play a Summoner. I want to test and give it my all as a Necromancer at least once.
I shall be different from another Summoner, who for Example is more like a "elemental Type of Summoner/Shaman", right ? Or a Summoner who is a bit of a Ranger. Or a bit of a Rogue. Or a bit of a Mage.
Necromancer is a Summoner supposed to have "Cleric" (?) as his Subclass, right ? I admit i don't always keep it in my Memory.
It is mainly for the Sake of Customisation, Freedom of Uniqueness - oh and of Course a few, probably handy Extra-Abilities and/or Skills from the Subclass. .
There is only 8 "classes". Don't believe the "augments will drastically change abilities" until you see it happen on at least a single archetype.
Ashes is a game with 8 classes and parties of 8 people. It's a perfect fit.
Yeah that's why I kind of feel like they shouldn't even bother with the arguments and focus on the base archetype and maybe add one or two more for that extra variety.
But the thing is those secondaries will also be 'recycled'. The effects that one archtype has as a secondary will have the same theme of effects being applied to each primary.
Well creating a theme for the secondary archetype is easy, the difficult part is implementing it and making it a somewhat balanced and fun ability.
this is how it works. you dont build skills, you build a factory that builds skills. this is the simples way i can explain this. there are other ways to do it, like using composition, but i dont want to go into technical details.
so you have something like this: (not a real language)
you can create new skills by changing the values, such as name, damage, etc and you just attach these skills to a class.
if you play cleric/ mage and use fire augments, now your skill healAmount is set to 0, damage is set to 100 and element is set to fire.
maybe you can add a red/orange/yellow filter to the png icon so u dont have to draw a new one.
and if you use the lightning augment, then the element is set to lightning, you add a white/light blue/yellow filter to it. change the particles color, etc
if you play cleric/ranger, maybe the augment only changes the range to 35,
if you play cleric/cleric, then the heal amount changes to 150. you could also change another value so that it applies a heal over time to your target, etc
a rogue secondary would change the crit rate to 20 for example.
the point is that you are just changing numbers, basically. you still have to think about what numbers you want to change. also, iirc steven said that not all skills will be augmentable, so they wont have to work on 200+ skills or whatever.
you can still use this skill factory to create a new class, but a new class is so much more work. you have to think about what class you are going to make. is it going to be a monk? a druid?, witch? a rune knight?, etc, etc. then you have to design a stat growth for that class, you gotta draw new icons for the skills, create new sound and visual effects, animations, etc.
at some point you will end up changing skill values and all that, but not before you have to do the entire process that happens before you get to that point, and of course, they go through multiple iterations and play tests. and that process can take several months. adding 4 more classes, you are probably looking at 2 years of work for whoever has to make them. so nope, adding more classes isnt easier and faster than just changing some values on the skills you already made.
on top of that, they already have an augment system. remember you can get augments from religions and social organizations? so now they gonna have to scrap all that because you think the game will fail if they dont add 4 more classes instead? xDD
There is only 8 "classes". Don't believe the "augments will drastically change abilities" until you see it happen on at least a single archetype.
Ashes is a game with 8 classes and parties of 8 people. It's a perfect fit.
Yeah that's why I kind of feel like they shouldn't even bother with the arguments and focus on the base archetype and maybe add one or two more for that extra variety.
But the thing is those secondaries will also be 'recycled'. The effects that one archtype has as a secondary will have the same theme of effects being applied to each primary.
Well creating a theme for the secondary archetype is easy, the difficult part is implementing it and making it a somewhat balanced and fun ability.
this is how it works. you dont build skills, you build a factory that builds skills. this is the simples way i can explain this. there are other ways to do it, like using composition, but i dont want to go into technical details.
so you have something like this: (not a real language)
you can create new skills by changing the values, such as name, damage, etc and you just attach these skills to a class.
if you play cleric/ mage and use fire augments, now your skill healAmount is set to 0, damage is set to 100 and element is set to fire.
maybe you can add a red/orange/yellow filter to the png icon so u dont have to draw a new one.
and if you use the lightning augment, then the element is set to lightning, you add a white/light blue/yellow filter to it. change the particles color, etc
if you play cleric/ranger, maybe the augment only changes the range to 35,
if you play cleric/cleric, then the heal amount changes to 150. you could also change another value so that it applies a heal over time to your target, etc
a rogue secondary would change the crit rate to 20 for example.
the point is that you are just changing numbers, basically. you still have to think about what numbers you want to change. also, iirc steven said that not all skills will be augmentable, so they wont have to work on 200+ skills or whatever.
you can still use this skill factory to create a new class, but a new class is so much more work. you have to think about what class you are going to make. is it going to be a monk? a druid?, witch? a rune knight?, etc, etc. then you have to design a stat growth for that class, you gotta draw new icons for the skills, create new sound and visual effects, animations, etc.
at some point you will end up changing skill values and all that, but not before you have to do the entire process that happens before you get to that point, and of course, they go through multiple iterations and play tests. and that process can take several months. adding 4 more classes, you are probably looking at 2 years of work for whoever has to make them. so nope, adding more classes isnt easier and faster than just changing some values on the skills you already made.
on top of that, they already have an augment system. remember you can get augments from religions and social organizations? so now they gonna have to scrap all that because you think the game will fail if they dont add 4 more classes instead? xDD
First of I never said that the game will fail if they don't add 4 more classes, and my number of classes (12) is after a few expansions not now. We have also not seen, what I can remember, the augment system related to religion and social organisations, so we don't know if that's even implement yet (I guess they have some ideas of how to do it though).
And implementing augmented abilities that relates to an archetype and its fantasy AND the base archetype isn't as simple as "lets change the dmg from physical to fire". You need to change the sound, the effects, maybe even animations on some abilities (add or remove) and they need to have variety within the augmented abilities so it doesn't get boring and feel the same. Then you need to do that on some number of abilities 8 times for all 8 base archetypes. That will easily add up to +1000 abilities they need to work on.
What I'm saying is that if they scrap the 8 augmented ability system (64 classes) and just stick to base archetypes. Classes will not only be more based to its class fantasy, but it will also be easier to add new archetypes with new class fantasies in the future. And maybe at some point (not any time soon), 12 or more classes to have a good spread of archetypes and class fantasies that feel complete and fun.
There is only 8 "classes". Don't believe the "augments will drastically change abilities" until you see it happen on at least a single archetype.
Ashes is a game with 8 classes and parties of 8 people. It's a perfect fit.
Yeah that's why I kind of feel like they shouldn't even bother with the arguments and focus on the base archetype and maybe add one or two more for that extra variety.
But the thing is those secondaries will also be 'recycled'. The effects that one archtype has as a secondary will have the same theme of effects being applied to each primary.
Well creating a theme for the secondary archetype is easy, the difficult part is implementing it and making it a somewhat balanced and fun ability.
this is how it works. you dont build skills, you build a factory that builds skills. this is the simples way i can explain this. there are other ways to do it, like using composition, but i dont want to go into technical details.
so you have something like this: (not a real language)
you can create new skills by changing the values, such as name, damage, etc and you just attach these skills to a class.
if you play cleric/ mage and use fire augments, now your skill healAmount is set to 0, damage is set to 100 and element is set to fire.
maybe you can add a red/orange/yellow filter to the png icon so u dont have to draw a new one.
and if you use the lightning augment, then the element is set to lightning, you add a white/light blue/yellow filter to it. change the particles color, etc
if you play cleric/ranger, maybe the augment only changes the range to 35,
if you play cleric/cleric, then the heal amount changes to 150. you could also change another value so that it applies a heal over time to your target, etc
a rogue secondary would change the crit rate to 20 for example.
the point is that you are just changing numbers, basically. you still have to think about what numbers you want to change. also, iirc steven said that not all skills will be augmentable, so they wont have to work on 200+ skills or whatever.
you can still use this skill factory to create a new class, but a new class is so much more work. you have to think about what class you are going to make. is it going to be a monk? a druid?, witch? a rune knight?, etc, etc. then you have to design a stat growth for that class, you gotta draw new icons for the skills, create new sound and visual effects, animations, etc.
at some point you will end up changing skill values and all that, but not before you have to do the entire process that happens before you get to that point, and of course, they go through multiple iterations and play tests. and that process can take several months. adding 4 more classes, you are probably looking at 2 years of work for whoever has to make them. so nope, adding more classes isnt easier and faster than just changing some values on the skills you already made.
on top of that, they already have an augment system. remember you can get augments from religions and social organizations? so now they gonna have to scrap all that because you think the game will fail if they dont add 4 more classes instead? xDD
And implementing augmented abilities that relates to an archetype and its fantasy AND the base archetype isn't as simple as "lets change the dmg from physical to fire". You need to change the sound, the effects, maybe even animations on some abilities (add or remove) and they need to have variety within the augmented abilities so it doesn't get boring and feel the same. Then you need to do that on some number of abilities 8 times for all 8 base archetypes. That will easily add up to +1000 abilities they need to work on.
but it is like that. it is as simple as changing some values. for example, steven mentioned that the warrior has a dash, if you augment it with the teleport augment from mage, instead of dashing, the warrior now teleports to his target. one way to do that is by setting the dash speed really REALLY high, so it appears as if the warrior was teleporting. this still adheres to the class fantasy, and all you did was change 1 number.
im not saying some abilities might not receive an animation or effects change, but not all of them will. you can recycle the things you have already created, and also just change colors and add filters.
im sure we will still receive more archetypes in future patches, a few years after release.
What I'm saying is that if they scrap the 8 augmented ability system (64 classes) and just stick to base archetypes. Classes will not only be more based to its class fantasy, but it will also be easier to add new archetypes with new class fantasies in the future. And maybe at some point (not any time soon), 12 or more classes to have a good spread of archetypes and class fantasies that feel complete and fun.
these things arent mutually exclusive. you can have good class fantasies and still add the augment system. just because you have an augment system, doesnt mean the base archetype will be incomplete. we already talked about this. i dont know why you believe that.
look at the ranger, it feels like a ranger. do you think if they add augments, it will feel less like a ranger suddenly?
but it is like that. it is as simple as changing some values. for example, steven mentioned that the warrior has a dash, if you augment it with the teleport augment from mage, instead of dashing, the warrior now teleports to his target. one way to do that is by setting the dash speed really REALLY high, so it appears as if the warrior was teleporting. this still adheres to the class fantasy, and all you did was change 1 number.
im not saying some abilities might not receive an animation or effects change, but not all of them will. you can recycle the things you have already created, and also just change colors and add filters.
im sure we will still receive more archetypes in future patches, a few years after release.
I can garanti you that the warrior dash to teleport will not be as simple as changing a value. You will 100% need to add animations and new sound to make it feel good. Sure the speed, the damage, the debuff applied, of the charge may just need a new value, but everything around it won't be that easy (still probably easy for IS but would need to spend time on it). Yes some abilities will be easy and very fast to make, while some take longer time.
these things arent mutually exclusive. you can have good class fantasies and still add the augment system. just because you have an augment system, doesnt mean the base archetype will be incomplete. we already talked about this. i dont know why you believe that.
look at the ranger, it feels like a ranger. do you think if they add augments, it will feel less like a ranger suddenly?
I'm mostly talking about the class fantasy of the "new class" after the 2 combined archetypes. The ranger that they showed looked amazing and very promising. I just want them to stick to that and keep making new and unique classes instead of sticking to the augmented class system to somehow create new and different class fantasies.
I know that IS would be able to make something amazing with the 64 classes, I'm just not sure if it's worth it. Their base archetypes have so far been amazing, why not just stick to that and create new and totally different archetypes instead of trying to change the current base one.
There is only 8 "classes". Don't believe the "augments will drastically change abilities" until you see it happen on at least a single archetype.
Ashes is a game with 8 classes and parties of 8 people. It's a perfect fit.
Yeah that's why I kind of feel like they shouldn't even bother with the arguments and focus on the base archetype and maybe add one or two more for that extra variety.
But the thing is those secondaries will also be 'recycled'. The effects that one archtype has as a secondary will have the same theme of effects being applied to each primary.
Well creating a theme for the secondary archetype is easy, the difficult part is implementing it and making it a somewhat balanced and fun ability.
They have said they don't intend to balance for a 1v1 individual scale, so as long as any good combos have their rock paper scissors counter play, I'm sure it will be fine.
Imagine a mage casting this ability (conditions and procedural highlighted)
Now using a Ranger because of recent relevancy decides to become a Scion (ranger+mage)
Hypothetically the ranger player decide to use elemental magic school to apply a lightning effect to scatter shot, snipe or head shot.
They now trigger the procedural. This is a singular example of how they currently plan on balancing the game via group play with the rock paper scissors ideology between the archetypes in group play. That Mage and Scion are now able to synergistically cause havoc to a plethora of focused targets.
I could probably come with countless more examples using mobility, distance gap closers and creators.
Could work vice versa too technically with a fire focused ranger and a lightning focused mage.
After seeing the ranger update I'm very confident in IS being able to make some great classes. However, I'm starting to doubt the 64 class model and would rather have around 10-12 well designed and unique classes that is also well balanced (in a group play setting).
64 different classes would be cool, but it will take a lot of work/time and money to make all those classes feel unique, have depth in its gameplay and be a viable option for PvP or PvE. Yes, the biggest hurdle is to create a good base archetype, but making the second archetype feel important and impactful will still be a HUGE hurdle and a big time investment. I'm convinced that IS could make it happen, but I'm not sure if it's worth it?
The augment class system is a way for Ashes of Creation to have their cake and eat it to.
One of the issues with MMO is that most MMO are designed so each class/archetype is different from the other classes/archetypes.
This augment class system allows for classes that are similar but different enough such classes could not be merged together.
Done right this will allow most players to find the archetype combination that suits them best.
Some games will give you a class, specialisation roles and talent tree's to customise playstyle and ability allowances. They still based those designs off RPG elements from table top games too.
Using WoW's Classes and Specialisations as an example:
It's not a 1 to 1 match up but loosely you can imagine as armour types are not class restricted.
Protection Paladin (Tank)
Tank + Cleric = Paladin
Retribution Paladin (Damage)
Fighter + Cleric = High Sword
(could add templar here for damage support)
Holy Paladin (Healers/Support)
Cleric + Cleric = High Priest
Cleric + Tank = Apostle
Cleric + Fighter = Templar
Also, the way it looks. Each class will have two roles each. Unlike in WoW where some classes could have three or four roles each.
In some ways this can be more interesting as if you enjoy playing tanks, you dont need to reroll 5 different classes to try all the tank specs unless you really want to lol.
Can be a paladin one month and a Guardian the next.
Realistically for the alt-o-holics.. you only need to make 8 characters unless class and race is that personally significant to the player
Also, the way it looks. Each class will have two roles each. Unlike in WoW where some classes could have three or four roles each.
In some ways this can be more interesting as if you enjoy playing tanks, you dont need to reroll 5 different classes to try all the tank specs unless you really want to lol.
Can be a paladin one month and a Guardian the next.
Realistically for the alt-o-holics.. you only need to make 8 characters unless class and race is that personally significant to the player
I agree.
Also, it is very possible that classes that use the same two archetypes will mirror each other and be very different in how they play.
Also, the way it looks. Each class will have two roles each. Unlike in WoW where some classes could have three or four roles each.
In some ways this can be more interesting as if you enjoy playing tanks, you dont need to reroll 5 different classes to try all the tank specs unless you really want to lol.
Can be a paladin one month and a Guardian the next.
Realistically for the alt-o-holics.. you only need to make 8 characters unless class and race is that personally significant to the player
I agree.
Also, it is very possible that classes that use the same two archetypes will mirror each other and be very different in how they play.
Your primary archetype is your general role with augments from your secondary archetype affecting those primary abilities.
If you pick a tank primary, your abilities are essentially still those tank abilities
If you add a cleric secondary, you're getting life and death augment options. You're still a tank, not a cleric.
If you pick a cleric primary with tank secondary, you're getting cleric abilities with whatever tank augments allowances are to those abilities. I'm assuming defensive bonuses for now.
Not really mirroring to be honest. There may be some benefits through weapon skills.
They split the classes between martial and arcane core for certain reason pertaining to this somewhat loosely.
After seeing the ranger update I'm very confident in IS being able to make some great classes. However, I'm starting to doubt the 64 class model and would rather have around 10-12 well designed and unique classes that is also well balanced (in a group play setting).
64 different classes would be cool, but it will take a lot of work/time and money to make all those classes feel unique, have depth in its gameplay and be a viable option for PvP or PvE. Yes, the biggest hurdle is to create a good base archetype, but making the second archetype feel important and impactful will still be a HUGE hurdle and a big time investment. I'm convinced that IS could make it happen, but I'm not sure if it's worth it?
The augment class system is a way for Ashes of Creation to have their cake and eat it to.
One of the issues with MMO is that most MMO are designed so each class/archetype is different from the other classes/archetypes.
This augment class system allows for classes that are similar but different enough such classes could not be merged together.
Done right this will allow most players to find the archetype combination that suits them best.
The difference in class/archetypes is a good thing, you can then have a vastly different class mechanics and class fantasy so people can find the class they connect the most to and feel different from any other class.
The augmented system, as you said, is just a small change and classes will feel the same and you will never be able to get a complete class fantasy of your new class (2 combined archetypes). So what you will have is 8 different classes with 8 small changes in style and fantasy that will just feel incomplete.
I do think that the augmented system can be amazing if they put a lot of time and effort in to it, but I'm still unsure if it's worth it. To me it will be much interesting if they continue to create classes they way have (love the ranger and the cleric for example) and scrap they 8 augmented system to spend more time on core archetypes and maybe new ones in the future.
Also, the way it looks. Each class will have two roles each. Unlike in WoW where some classes could have three or four roles each.
In some ways this can be more interesting as if you enjoy playing tanks, you dont need to reroll 5 different classes to try all the tank specs unless you really want to lol.
Can be a paladin one month and a Guardian the next.
Realistically for the alt-o-holics.. you only need to make 8 characters unless class and race is that personally significant to the player
This is true, but if you don't like the "heavy duty shield tank" then you won't like any of the classes within the tank archetype. And this is one of the problems I'm concerned about. Maybe Fighter+Tank will be able to tank some, but it will never be a Tank you main in PvE (as far as I know).
Having different types of tanks and mechanics for tanks to play with is what creates variety in gameplay. Not small changes to the same abilities.
Also, the way it looks. Each class will have two roles each. Unlike in WoW where some classes could have three or four roles each.
In some ways this can be more interesting as if you enjoy playing tanks, you dont need to reroll 5 different classes to try all the tank specs unless you really want to lol.
Can be a paladin one month and a Guardian the next.
Realistically for the alt-o-holics.. you only need to make 8 characters unless class and race is that personally significant to the player
This is true, but if you don't like the "heavy duty shield tank" then you won't like any of the classes within the tank archetype. And this is one of the problems I'm concerned about. Maybe Fighter+Tank will be able to tank some, but it will never be a Tank you main in PvE (as far as I know).
Having different types of tanks and mechanics for tanks to play with is what creates variety in gameplay. Not small changes to the same abilities.
Armour and weapons are up to the player as there is pro's and con's to using heavy armour vs medium as an example, weapon types, shield types etc.
There is 8 versions of the tank and we have not even seen any of the augmentations in effect yet. You get martial based tanks and martial/arcane based tanks. A fighter-tank (dreadnought) will probably retain its damage role with defensive bonuses. Could all come down to competence in group play and synergy to make it situationally temporarily functional.
Look at WoW, Prot Paladin, Prot Warrior, Blood Dk, Guardian Druid, Vengeance Demon Hunter. They may be more specifically unique but similarities are there depending on tank + augments.(minus the guardian druid). Most games only have a few tank options. Range tanks are kind of dumb for PvE since mobs kite to you with aggro and PvP is relatively skewed in balance but yeah.
Will have to see how augments truly affect the primary abilities to create more diverse playstyle preferences.
I'm not really too concerned to be honest. Tank+ Summoner = keeper. Could be more unique than people give it credit for since it's a martial + arcane combination vs a martial + martial. Tank + Mage (spell shield) could be quite unique, Tank + Bard (Argent) as well. We can assume a paladin will live up to its name so I have "faith" they will carry the trend accordingly.
EDIT: maybe the spell shield will have access to arcane items like wands and staves where the shield is magical. Hard to say.
We're not really talking about 64 true classes, we're talking about eight classes with 64 variants... There isn't as much variance between the 64 classes as you might expect. It's not like there are 64 different versions of... radically different classes.[3] – Jeffrey Bard
The minute someone says anything that is contrary to the above quote, we can freely dismiss it. However, that has not happened as yet.
I suspect you are mostly right, but there is this quote from Steven indicating Secondary Archetype can dramatically change your character's role and your active abilities.
If Secondary Archetype changes your role, that's sounds like a distinct class rather than a subtle variation of the primary archetype.
I guess my prediction is that in some cases it will be more dramatic than others, and in some cases even dramatic enough to change the character's role.
@Tacquito two ways you can look at his wording.
One is thinking it changes your role from a tank role to a damage role
Two it changes how that specific current role functions.
They talked about weapons and archetype combinations in recent stream.
Comments
In the sense that the class fantasy of the augmented archetype will feel incomplete. I feel like they should focus on the base archetype and its fantasy. Then make new classes in the future to make different feeling classes and builds to fill some other class fantasy. And I in current system, adding new archetypes will be a huge time investment and make things even more complicated and bring big balance issues if not done correct.
To me it make sense since creating a new class that stands on its own will be easier than creating and balancing augmented spells that is related to every other archetype (this is only based on feeling and nothing else xD). Yes both takes time but I feel like creating and balancing 280-320 abilities for every class will take longer than creating a new class with 35-40 spells.
Yes people will stack classes, 100%. From what I have seen they have said that they won't balance for 1v1 and instead focus on group balance, and we have 8, 16 and 40 person groups sizes. So I dont think they only look at 8 man party with one of each archetype when balancing. And that would be weird, since most friend groups and guilds will NOT have an even spread of archetypes. So getting a group with one of each will be very very difficult for the average player.
But the thing is those secondaries will also be 'recycled'. The effects that one archtype has as a secondary will have the same theme of effects being applied to each primary.
Well creating a theme for the secondary archetype is easy, the difficult part is implementing it and making it a somewhat balanced and fun ability.
You are only speaking for yourself again you want a boring class meta. Also you are loosely throwing around the term amazing and to reach what you call amazing is very very low on the bar. Looking any other mmorpg they would have better and more interesting classes if they went with what you wanted and just had very simple classes.
I'm figuring you are new to watching AoC and that is why you are trying to advocate for them to have basic stuff (or are impatient and want the game released earlier). They don't have a infinite budget they have a plan / framework. They have talked abotut his stuff in the pass briefly with how their tool kit works for creating abilities. Effects they make are like legos (that is how the unreal niagara works) and you can take one effect and use it somewhere else and target their rig (feet for example) and scale the fire effect down and tweak it slightly. And right away you have fire at feet and a trail made in less than a day than you can just polish the effect later.
You are doing a mix of a warrior and summoner and need a sword effect. You take one of the swords they made already use a shader on it and now they have a large blue magic summoned feeling sword they can use to replace effects, swapping the sword out with current ones like the hammer. And adjust the way it falls from the sky.
Of course it still is a lot of work regardless but it is their job they have a plan they will figure it out and./or scale some of it back if they fel they need to. This idea you are trying to throw out "They don't have money or time so they should make things basic." Is kind of insulting imo, let them do what they set out to do the best they can.
Has this actually been said? Or is it possible that, of the 35-40 unique skills, a quarter have 2 augment choices and another quarter have 4 augment choices? This would half the work required and still be plenty of variation between archetypes.
Then we would get
And again, if we imagine a skill like Barrage to have 8*4=32 variations, most of these might just be a simple colour palette change and some tweaks on the number side (does fire damage, adds bleed, etc.) Maybe only 3 variations change something about the actual skill that requires new assets.
The majority of the work is developing the initial 300 base skills.
According to the Wiki on Augments the total skill number seems to be fairly accurate. (I wish I would have looked it up before rather than do the math myself).
The thing with varying the augment choices is IMO that people would gravitate more towards archetypes that offer more augmenting options, so either Intrepid would have to balance the augment options on all classes or try to somehow adjust the cause when switching to a class with a different numer of augmentation options. The reason being that more options within a class would allow the player who chose that class to have easier, cheaper access to more play style variation and through that strategic advantages. Additionally the necessity for gear adjustment when changing augments within a class would probably be less expensive than switching to a whole new class. So I'm not sure whether Intrepid would do themselves a favor by varying the amounts of possible augments depending on class and/or skill.
I definitely agree that some of the augments might not be very significant and indeed just change the color and maybe the damage type and that would be fine because than in itself could already be a big advantage depending on the type of conflict you are involved in.
And I agree even more that the bulk of the work is creating the base skills from which the augmented versions are being created. So maybe this process has already progressed further than we think. Additionally it is not too far fetched to assume that this also has implications for enemy design. Sure, mobs like spiders might have unique skill sets but humanoid mobs will probably greatly rely on the same type of skills that actual player are also using. It wouldn't make too much sense if a Mob Mage suddenly has completely different magic than other mages in the world, I think that would, to a certain degree even contradict the lore.
That's actually a pretty good point. Many mobs could be using abilities/weapons and augments that are identical to the player ones already created. Would definitely save on time and fit the lore.
They basically need to create 1 ability, and then have defined parameters on that ability that react to augment selections. So the hard part might just be creating the complex ability in the first place.
I'm not sure about the wiki answer though. If every ability can have the mage school "teleportation" applied to it, things are going to get crazy.
Not supposed to be " actually 64 different Classes ", though.
More like All 8 Archetypes - can have later on Traits of ONE - other - Class.
8 Times 8 makes 64, easy as that.
But for Example a " Tank " - who later on gets the Subclass " Rogue ",
will not the same as for Example a " Rogue " - who later speccs/skills as his Subclass " Tank ".
It will be more like the still firm Classes they are - with some passive or active Traits of some other Class. So there is no need to worry, that the Game and Gameplay will be completely overwhelmed by an insane Amount of totally different Classes.
For the whole Sake of Freedom, Freedom of Fantasy - and "Fun" - believe me. It shall be worth it.
I for Example plan to play a Summoner. I want to test and give it my all as a Necromancer at least once.
I shall be different from another Summoner, who for Example is more like a "elemental Type of Summoner/Shaman", right ? Or a Summoner who is a bit of a Ranger. Or a bit of a Rogue. Or a bit of a Mage.
Necromancer is a Summoner supposed to have "Cleric" (?) as his Subclass, right ? I admit i don't always keep it in my Memory.
It is mainly for the Sake of Customisation, Freedom of Uniqueness - oh and of Course a few, probably handy Extra-Abilities and/or Skills from the Subclass.
this is how it works. you dont build skills, you build a factory that builds skills. this is the simples way i can explain this. there are other ways to do it, like using composition, but i dont want to go into technical details.
so you have something like this: (not a real language)
Skill = {
name: heal,
icon: C:\aoc\images\icons\heal.png,
healAmount: 100,
damage: 0,
range: 20
element: none,
critRate: 0
...
...
etc etc etc
}
you can create new skills by changing the values, such as name, damage, etc and you just attach these skills to a class.
if you play cleric/ mage and use fire augments, now your skill healAmount is set to 0, damage is set to 100 and element is set to fire.
maybe you can add a red/orange/yellow filter to the png icon so u dont have to draw a new one.
and if you use the lightning augment, then the element is set to lightning, you add a white/light blue/yellow filter to it. change the particles color, etc
if you play cleric/ranger, maybe the augment only changes the range to 35,
if you play cleric/cleric, then the heal amount changes to 150. you could also change another value so that it applies a heal over time to your target, etc
a rogue secondary would change the crit rate to 20 for example.
the point is that you are just changing numbers, basically. you still have to think about what numbers you want to change. also, iirc steven said that not all skills will be augmentable, so they wont have to work on 200+ skills or whatever.
you can still use this skill factory to create a new class, but a new class is so much more work. you have to think about what class you are going to make. is it going to be a monk? a druid?, witch? a rune knight?, etc, etc. then you have to design a stat growth for that class, you gotta draw new icons for the skills, create new sound and visual effects, animations, etc.
at some point you will end up changing skill values and all that, but not before you have to do the entire process that happens before you get to that point, and of course, they go through multiple iterations and play tests. and that process can take several months. adding 4 more classes, you are probably looking at 2 years of work for whoever has to make them. so nope, adding more classes isnt easier and faster than just changing some values on the skills you already made.
on top of that, they already have an augment system. remember you can get augments from religions and social organizations? so now they gonna have to scrap all that because you think the game will fail if they dont add 4 more classes instead? xDD
First of I never said that the game will fail if they don't add 4 more classes, and my number of classes (12) is after a few expansions not now. We have also not seen, what I can remember, the augment system related to religion and social organisations, so we don't know if that's even implement yet (I guess they have some ideas of how to do it though).
And implementing augmented abilities that relates to an archetype and its fantasy AND the base archetype isn't as simple as "lets change the dmg from physical to fire". You need to change the sound, the effects, maybe even animations on some abilities (add or remove) and they need to have variety within the augmented abilities so it doesn't get boring and feel the same. Then you need to do that on some number of abilities 8 times for all 8 base archetypes. That will easily add up to +1000 abilities they need to work on.
What I'm saying is that if they scrap the 8 augmented ability system (64 classes) and just stick to base archetypes. Classes will not only be more based to its class fantasy, but it will also be easier to add new archetypes with new class fantasies in the future. And maybe at some point (not any time soon), 12 or more classes to have a good spread of archetypes and class fantasies that feel complete and fun.
As has been said, let's wait for testing!
100%, if there is one crazy studio that would make it happen it's IS xD
but it is like that. it is as simple as changing some values. for example, steven mentioned that the warrior has a dash, if you augment it with the teleport augment from mage, instead of dashing, the warrior now teleports to his target. one way to do that is by setting the dash speed really REALLY high, so it appears as if the warrior was teleporting. this still adheres to the class fantasy, and all you did was change 1 number.
im not saying some abilities might not receive an animation or effects change, but not all of them will. you can recycle the things you have already created, and also just change colors and add filters.
im sure we will still receive more archetypes in future patches, a few years after release.
these things arent mutually exclusive. you can have good class fantasies and still add the augment system. just because you have an augment system, doesnt mean the base archetype will be incomplete. we already talked about this. i dont know why you believe that.
look at the ranger, it feels like a ranger. do you think if they add augments, it will feel less like a ranger suddenly?
I can garanti you that the warrior dash to teleport will not be as simple as changing a value. You will 100% need to add animations and new sound to make it feel good. Sure the speed, the damage, the debuff applied, of the charge may just need a new value, but everything around it won't be that easy (still probably easy for IS but would need to spend time on it). Yes some abilities will be easy and very fast to make, while some take longer time.
I'm mostly talking about the class fantasy of the "new class" after the 2 combined archetypes. The ranger that they showed looked amazing and very promising. I just want them to stick to that and keep making new and unique classes instead of sticking to the augmented class system to somehow create new and different class fantasies.
I know that IS would be able to make something amazing with the 64 classes, I'm just not sure if it's worth it. Their base archetypes have so far been amazing, why not just stick to that and create new and totally different archetypes instead of trying to change the current base one.
They have said they don't intend to balance for a 1v1 individual scale, so as long as any good combos have their rock paper scissors counter play, I'm sure it will be fine.
Imagine a mage casting this ability (conditions and procedural highlighted)
Now using a Ranger because of recent relevancy decides to become a Scion (ranger+mage)
Hypothetically the ranger player decide to use elemental magic school to apply a lightning effect to scatter shot, snipe or head shot.
They now trigger the procedural. This is a singular example of how they currently plan on balancing the game via group play with the rock paper scissors ideology between the archetypes in group play. That Mage and Scion are now able to synergistically cause havoc to a plethora of focused targets.
I could probably come with countless more examples using mobility, distance gap closers and creators.
Could work vice versa too technically with a fire focused ranger and a lightning focused mage.
Eight classes, 64 specs.
Am tired of dumbed-down, too-simple MMO's.
One of the issues with MMO is that most MMO are designed so each class/archetype is different from the other classes/archetypes.
This augment class system allows for classes that are similar but different enough such classes could not be merged together.
Done right this will allow most players to find the archetype combination that suits them best.
Some games will give you a class, specialisation roles and talent tree's to customise playstyle and ability allowances. They still based those designs off RPG elements from table top games too.
Using WoW's Classes and Specialisations as an example:
It's not a 1 to 1 match up but loosely you can imagine as armour types are not class restricted.
Protection Paladin (Tank)
Tank + Cleric = Paladin
Retribution Paladin (Damage)
Fighter + Cleric = High Sword
(could add templar here for damage support)
Holy Paladin (Healers/Support)
Cleric + Cleric = High Priest
Cleric + Tank = Apostle
Cleric + Fighter = Templar
Shadow Priest
Mage + Cleric = Acolyte (death augments)
Holy Priest/Discipline
Cleric + Mage = Oracle
Mage + Cleric = Acolyte (life augments)
Also, the way it looks. Each class will have two roles each. Unlike in WoW where some classes could have three or four roles each.
In some ways this can be more interesting as if you enjoy playing tanks, you dont need to reroll 5 different classes to try all the tank specs unless you really want to lol.
Can be a paladin one month and a Guardian the next.
Realistically for the alt-o-holics.. you only need to make 8 characters unless class and race is that personally significant to the player
Also, it is very possible that classes that use the same two archetypes will mirror each other and be very different in how they play.
Your primary archetype is your general role with augments from your secondary archetype affecting those primary abilities.
If you pick a tank primary, your abilities are essentially still those tank abilities
https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Tank
If you add a cleric secondary, you're getting life and death augment options. You're still a tank, not a cleric.
If you pick a cleric primary with tank secondary, you're getting cleric abilities with whatever tank augments allowances are to those abilities. I'm assuming defensive bonuses for now.
Not really mirroring to be honest. There may be some benefits through weapon skills.
They split the classes between martial and arcane core for certain reason pertaining to this somewhat loosely.
The difference in class/archetypes is a good thing, you can then have a vastly different class mechanics and class fantasy so people can find the class they connect the most to and feel different from any other class.
The augmented system, as you said, is just a small change and classes will feel the same and you will never be able to get a complete class fantasy of your new class (2 combined archetypes). So what you will have is 8 different classes with 8 small changes in style and fantasy that will just feel incomplete.
I do think that the augmented system can be amazing if they put a lot of time and effort in to it, but I'm still unsure if it's worth it. To me it will be much interesting if they continue to create classes they way have (love the ranger and the cleric for example) and scrap they 8 augmented system to spend more time on core archetypes and maybe new ones in the future.
This is true, but if you don't like the "heavy duty shield tank" then you won't like any of the classes within the tank archetype. And this is one of the problems I'm concerned about. Maybe Fighter+Tank will be able to tank some, but it will never be a Tank you main in PvE (as far as I know).
Having different types of tanks and mechanics for tanks to play with is what creates variety in gameplay. Not small changes to the same abilities.
Armour and weapons are up to the player as there is pro's and con's to using heavy armour vs medium as an example, weapon types, shield types etc.
There is 8 versions of the tank and we have not even seen any of the augmentations in effect yet. You get martial based tanks and martial/arcane based tanks. A fighter-tank (dreadnought) will probably retain its damage role with defensive bonuses. Could all come down to competence in group play and synergy to make it situationally temporarily functional.
Look at WoW, Prot Paladin, Prot Warrior, Blood Dk, Guardian Druid, Vengeance Demon Hunter. They may be more specifically unique but similarities are there depending on tank + augments.(minus the guardian druid). Most games only have a few tank options. Range tanks are kind of dumb for PvE since mobs kite to you with aggro and PvP is relatively skewed in balance but yeah.
Will have to see how augments truly affect the primary abilities to create more diverse playstyle preferences.
I'm not really too concerned to be honest. Tank+ Summoner = keeper. Could be more unique than people give it credit for since it's a martial + arcane combination vs a martial + martial. Tank + Mage (spell shield) could be quite unique, Tank + Bard (Argent) as well. We can assume a paladin will live up to its name so I have "faith" they will carry the trend accordingly.
EDIT: maybe the spell shield will have access to arcane items like wands and staves where the shield is magical. Hard to say.
I suspect you are mostly right, but there is this quote from Steven indicating Secondary Archetype can dramatically change your character's role and your active abilities.
16:40
If Secondary Archetype changes your role, that's sounds like a distinct class rather than a subtle variation of the primary archetype.
I guess my prediction is that in some cases it will be more dramatic than others, and in some cases even dramatic enough to change the character's role.
As usual and inevitably I will play the one I want.
One is thinking it changes your role from a tank role to a damage role
Two it changes how that specific current role functions.
They talked about weapons and archetype combinations in recent stream.
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