Because I don't think they will add healing spells or cure magic/disease to the tool kit of a Tank+Cleric. It will just be the same tank abilities with some change of the damage dealt, or some small added friendly healing effect. This is just assumptions based on my current understanding of the augmented system and that it will mainly only be minor (or maybe some more major) modifications of current abilities.
Class augments will supposedly have particular schools that we can choose, so if a paladin wants to max out their healing power - they'll just choose the school of augments that give the most healing/cleansing effects. Add to that +healing gear and maybe some religious augments and you have yourself a fairly strong paladin-healer, whose core functionality hasn't really changed.
Another paladin might go into a holy dmg build, while yet another might concentrate on the death side of clerics (whichever form that will have).
All of them will still be tanks at their core, but their greater role in the party would shift slightly and the party itself would have to be built accordingly too.
If the statement from Jeffrey is false and there will actually be quite a bit of changes that you can make, both the 8*4 different kinds of augments for each of the 8 classes and with the added religious and other world augmentations/abilities, then that would be amazing. Basically creating and shaping your own fantasy.
However reading the wiki one see quotes like this which is much more of a thematic change and not an ability change.
and those augments will change the look and feel of those abilities; and some will have the affect to create more darker thematic aspects to it. Or just generally different aesthetics to the abilities that represent the secondary [archetype] selection.[8]
Secondary archetype augments allow different aesthetics to apply to primary abilities that reflect the secondary archetype selection.[8]
Some spell colors and general FX change based on augments.[54]
Active skills could look totally different after an augment gets applied[55]
But at the same time,
Augments to primary skills can fundamentally change the way the ability works - adapting what the ability once did to incorporate the identity of the secondary archetype/class
So I don't really know what to think. I hope it's more akin to what you said since a like the example you gave, but guess we will have to wait ans see.
So I don't really know what to think. I hope it's more akin to what you said since a like the example you gave, but guess we will have to wait ans see.
Just look at the references and see which is the latest one. Iirc it's Steven saying that it's gonna be "fundamental changes". Right now I simply don't believe that. I'll be glad if I'm proven wrong, but that's a thing for the fairly distant future.
My examples don't require fundamental changes though. A plain tank buff of "this aura gives +20 def to people in range" can just become "it now also provides 5hp/s healing". And a buff of "give the target +200 def for 5 secs" can have an addition of "and cleanse one debuff".
Obviously the balancing side would be a nightmare, but that is always the case in any game. And those kinds of additions would be counterbalanced by enemies having higher/different dmg due to augments or healing-preventing/diminishing effects.
Nothing drastically changes at the core, but the party composition and gameplay can be shifted slightly.
We will see. Let them cook and if that tastes bad we still can spit out our worries after.
Giving concrete feedback ideas for them to decide if they are worth implementing is the way this goes.
Some things can be important to the devs so they want to implement them, but the power of constructive feedback is still greater if it makes more sense for millions of other people than what they brood about in their meetings and iterations of development.
Also what we brood out isn't always right, esp. if it isn't cohesive and on path with the core pillars of the devs...
The design philosophy is strong, but they need to stick to their pillars and fantasy guidelines and not deviate or branch out in the wrong direction as I feel they do sometimes with some of those abilities...
(summoning effect without summoner augmentations, elemental attacks without mage augmentations, and so on...)
That can be seen as nitpicky and inflexible, but it has to feel right since they decided on creating diverse class fantasies with explicit core fantasies that can be recognized from afar and by color, sound, and altogether by all design aspects!
I think there needs to be even more work put into these details or the archetypes by themselves won't sell to the players as immersive and diverse to play.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Just look at the references and see which is the latest one. Iirc it's Steven saying that it's gonna be "fundamental changes". Right now I simply don't believe that. I'll be glad if I'm proven wrong, but that's a thing for the fairly distant future.
My examples don't require fundamental changes though. A plain tank buff of "this aura gives +20 def to people in range" can just become "it now also provides 5hp/s healing". And a buff of "give the target +200 def for 5 secs" can have an addition of "and cleanse one debuff".
Obviously the balancing side would be a nightmare, but that is always the case in any game. And those kinds of additions would be counterbalanced by enemies having higher/different dmg due to augments or healing-preventing/diminishing effects.
Nothing drastically changes at the core, but the party composition and gameplay can be shifted slightly.
Well... "fundamental changes" means that some Summoners might summon many things. An augment on that same Active Skill might only Summon one big thing.
The target of a Wild Blade might be surrounded by a ring of Summoned Blades which each deal Physical Damage.
The target of a Necromancer might be fighting one Summoned Lich Mage that deals Shadow (Magical) Damage.
Different Augments on the same Active Skill.
Overall, the Active Skill deals the same amount of damage, but the tactics to combat the attack(s) would be significantly different. Also, the gear required to mitigate the damage would be significantly different.
So... not big changes - it's still a Summoner. But the stuff that gets Summoned with the same Active Skill can be significantly different depending on what Augment is attached to the Active Skill.
Also...
Yes. In your example, NiKr...
I'm probably going to choose my gear based on the tactics of my allies, so... either gear that stacks the Def buff or gear that buffs incoming Heals.
One the examples that Steven has given is that Rush can be blocked by a barrier, but if an Augment version of Blink is attached to Rush, the wielder can teleport through the barrier.
Overall, the Active Skill deals the same amount of damage, but the tactics to combat the attack(s) would be significantly different. Also, the gear required to mitigate the damage would be significantly different.
So... not big changes - it's still a Summoner. But the stuff that gets Summoned with the same Active Skill can be significantly different depending on what Augment is attached to the Active Skill.
We'll just have to see what Steven has in mind when he says "significant", cause to me those changes are not significant.
Overall, the Active Skill deals the same amount of damage, but the tactics to combat the attack(s) would be significantly different. Also, the gear required to mitigate the damage would be significantly different.
So... not big changes - it's still a Summoner. But the stuff that gets Summoned with the same Active Skill can be significantly different depending on what Augment is attached to the Active Skill.
We'll just have to see what Steven has in mind when he says "significant", cause to me those changes are not significant.
To me, summoning a singular fire elemental is fundamentally different to summoning 10 skeletons, which is fundamentally different to summoning 100 crows. If my expectation for the level of control afforded for each summon turns out to be remotely close to reality, then the difference between each of these summons will be even greater.
My expectation for Shadow Caster in regards to the mage Blink spell is that there will be an augment that puts you in to stealth while blinking. That is a fundamental change to the ability.
To me, summoning a singular fire elemental is fundamentally different to summoning 10 skeletons, which is fundamentally different to summoning 100 crows. If my expectation for the level of control afforded for each summon turns out to be remotely close to reality, then the difference between each of these summons will be even greater.
I'd prefer a much more granular control of our summons, so having even 10 additional units that you're meant to somehow microcontrol would be an utter pain in the ass. But we'll see how they design summoner changes.
My expectation for Shadow Caster in regards to the mage Blink spell is that there will be an augment that puts you in to stealth while blinking. That is a fundamental change to the ability.
Would this stealth provide a detargetting effect? Or what would be the significance of the change? Cause I'd prefer if Blink-like abilities already provided that effect.
And in that context it could be said that the everpresent "rush is a blink now" example acquires a "significant change", but I don't personally see myself using rush as a detargetting tool. I'll appreciate that the functionality is there, and might choose it over other augments, but absolute majority of use cases for Rush will still be "positioning, with a slight chance of knockdown".
To me, summoning a singular fire elemental is fundamentally different to summoning 10 skeletons, which is fundamentally different to summoning 100 crows. If my expectation for the level of control afforded for each summon turns out to be remotely close to reality, then the difference between each of these summons will be even greater.
I'd prefer a much more granular control of our summons, so having even 10 additional units that you're meant to somehow microcontrol would be an utter pain in the ass. But we'll see how they design summoner changes.
My expectation of this is that if a summon gives us one entity, we would have micromanagement level control. We'd have the ability to activate it's abilities ourselves - it would basically function like a second player character that we control.
If we have 10, we would have basic control over what target each of them attacks, but not a whole lot more.
If we have 100, it would function like a swarm, we would have almost no control. This type of class would then likely see us using this kind of summon, then focus on other aspects for a while as this swarm does it's thing.
To me, I see no reason why this variation of summon abilities can't be achieves via augments. This - to me - constitutes the fundamental difference in the ability that Steven said augments will allow for.
My expectation for Shadow Caster in regards to the mage Blink spell is that there will be an augment that puts you in to stealth while blinking. That is a fundamental change to the ability.
Would this stealth provide a detargetting effect? Or what would be the significance of the change? Cause I'd prefer if Blink-like abilities already provided that effect.
I don't think this matters in the context of this discussion. If one version of blink doesn't offer stealth, and another version does, that is a fundamental difference.
And in that context it could be said that the everpresent "rush is a blink now" example acquires a "significant change", but I don't personally see myself using rush as a detargetting tool. I'll appreciate that the functionality is there, and might choose it over other augments, but absolute majority of use cases for Rush will still be "positioning, with a slight chance of knockdown".
So, you don't see rush as a detarget tool - that would mean that if an augment added it, that would fundamentally change the ability.
As for it's usefulness - perhaps it would be used as a tank CC's a ranged target, then rushes away, causing that ranged target to detarget the tank and be left standing there, by themselves, with no target.
I'm not saying it is the most useful of abilities, I am simply stating that an augment that adds a detarget to a rush ability is causing a drastic change to the function of the ability (that said, this wasn't one of the examples I gave).
I would actually argue that if an augment simply made a given ability (such a rush) a better rush, then that isn't a drastic change.
It is worth noting that Steven hasn't said that every augment will drastically change the base ability, the comment is simply that the augment system has the ability to do so. This is one of the reasons I see a likelihood of people doubling down on their class more often than statistics would suggest - many people would see more value in a rush ability that works as a rush ability extremely well than they would on a rush ability that is also a detaunt (as an example).
To me, I see no reason why this variation of summon abilities can't be achieves via augments. This - to me - constitutes the fundamental difference in the ability that Steven said augments will allow for.
Yeah, that would be a big change. I just don't see it happening.
I don't think this matters in the context of this discussion. If one version of blink doesn't offer stealth, and another version does, that is a fundamental difference.
What would be the difference though? Maybe I misunderstood your original comment. Do you mean that the character would go into stealth for several seconds after the blink?
Cause yes, that would be a fairly big change, because now the effect of the ability would be prolonged severalfold and have a different function.
There is a chance that this would happen, but at that point I feel like the balancing of all augments would simply become the "everyone's OP, so just let them be" kind of thing.
So, you don't see rush as a detarget tool - that would mean that if an augment added it, that would fundamentally change the ability.
No, I meant that if blink-rush had the detargeting effect (in the context of all blinks having it) then I'd still see rush as a mainly positional tool.
I would actually argue that if an augment simply made a given ability (such a rush) a better rush, then that isn't a drastic change.
It is worth noting that Steven hasn't said that every augment will drastically change the base ability, the comment is simply that the augment system has the ability to do so. This is one of the reasons I see a likelihood of people doubling down on their class more often than statistics would suggest - many people would see more value in a rush ability that works as a rush ability extremely well than they would on a rush ability that is also a detaunt (as an example).
Which is exactly my point. I expect augments to simply make the base ability slightly better in one of the horizontal directions.
Your example for the summoner would either imply crazy stats on the solo summon or crazy small stats on the swarm. Otherwise the swarm is always better, unless its summon cd is smth like minutes-long (though even then I feel like outside of big fights with aoes, it'd still be quite op).
I expect augments to simply make the base ability slightly better in one of the horizontal directions.
We have ability ranks to achieve this.
Your example for the summoner would either imply crazy stats on the solo summon or crazy small stats on the swarm. Otherwise the swarm is always better, unless its summon cd is smth like minutes-long (though even then I feel like outside of big fights with aoes, it'd still be quite op).
Or - and again this is actually my expectation - the different types of summons are specific to your secondary.
If you go for summoner as your secondary as a summoner, you would have a fairly solid expectation of having strong summons.
If you go for a Brood Warden, you would likely expect your summons to be (specifically) a family of birds.
Balance between these two would be achieved via other abilities. There is no need to specifically blance these two augments against each other, because there is no possible way for a player to be able to pick one or the other. They are picking the entier secondary class kit, and that kit determines which if these they have.
Thus, if you have a summoner class that is more focused on a single summons, all augments would focus more on it and players would have more control over it. On the other hand, other summoner classes may have less of a focus on singular summons and instead offer large groups, with other augments in thst class balanced more around that notion.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Overall, the Active Skill deals the same amount of damage, but the tactics to combat the attack(s) would be significantly different. Also, the gear required to mitigate the damage would be significantly different.
So... not big changes - it's still a Summoner. But the stuff that gets Summoned with the same Active Skill can be significantly different depending on what Augment is attached to the Active Skill.
We'll just have to see what Steven has in mind when he says "significant", cause to me those changes are not significant.
Technically this is you wanting more than what is possible from reality. You're a walking semiohazard.
Assuming you walk. Or define walking as a thing you do.
I'm more of a glider (slider?) personally.
Also, TIL what a semiohazard is Not sure that I fully understand its meaning, but I'm sure I'll come up with a seemingly non-sensical but definitely real one sooner or later
It is worth noting that Steven hasn't said that every augment will drastically change the base ability, the comment is simply that the augment system has the ability to do so. This is one of the reasons I see a likelihood of people doubling down on their class more often than statistics would suggest - many people would see more value in a rush ability that works as a rush ability extremely well than they would on a rush ability that is also a detaunt (as an example).
Balance the gains from each augment to make them all viable.
Stealth + crit-chance from Rogue, attack-speed, and root-CC from Ranger.
Why do we want to mix archetypes again?
To gain the beneficial effects from them.
Intrepid has just to figure out what is beneficial to us in PvX and what is not enough.
I expect augments to simply make the base ability slightly better in one of the horizontal directions.
We have ability ranks to achieve this.
Your example for the summoner would either imply crazy stats on the solo summon or crazy small stats on the swarm. Otherwise the swarm is always better, unless its summon cd is smth like minutes-long (though even then I feel like outside of big fights with aoes, it'd still be quite op).
Or - and again this is actually my expectation - the different types of summons are specific to your secondary.
If you go for summoner as your secondary as a summoner, you would have a fairly solid expectation of having strong summons.
If you go for a Brood Warden, you would likely expect your summons to be (specifically) a family of birds.
Balance between these two would be achieved via other abilities. There is no need to specifically blance these two augments against each other, because there is no possible way for a player to be able to pick one or the other. They are picking the entier secondary class kit, and that kit determines which if these they have.
Thus, if you have a summoner class that is more focused on a single summons, all augments would focus more on it and players would have more control over it. On the other hand, other summoner classes may have less of a focus on singular summons and instead offer large groups, with other augments in thst class balanced more around that notion.
I imagine the archetypes to define the primary function of the playstyle. (I mean that's stated facts from Steven i guess...)
So if we use the Summoner archetype as an example, there would be more of an emphasis on summoning stuff than anything else, even with augments.
Necromancers summon multiple undead creatures, Beastmasters summon a plethora of wild creatures and Brood Wardens summon mitigation-based meatshield creatures or something like that...
The Conjurer would be the class where your summons gets mixed with all the other summons.
If you play any other archetype like Cleric, for example, there would be more of an emphasis on healing abilities.
When paired with the summoner you would summon one healing support pet, like a phoenix.
When playing as Ranger-Summoner you would summon one falcon to support you.
as a tank the summon may be a flesh monstrosity, a mage a stone golem, as a fighter a big weapon...
The summoner as a primary archetype can spec into single/group/swarm summons with the secondary archetypes effects attached.
The summoner as a secondary archetype can spec only into single summons with the effects of the primary archetype attached.
Truth be told... All they have to do is have your main Class/ Augment have a majority of your abilities. Then have each class offer 5 extra abilities in the event you pick it as a secondary. It would offer variety but it would not be so complex in thinking 64 completely different classes are needed or implemented. Oh you want to be a fighter secondary... you get more 2 handed weapon abilities, a rage mode, etc. Oh you want to be a cleric secondary.... here are 4-5 extra shield/heal abilities...
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
It is worth noting that Steven hasn't said that every augment will drastically change the base ability, the comment is simply that the augment system has the ability to do so. This is one of the reasons I see a likelihood of people doubling down on their class more often than statistics would suggest - many people would see more value in a rush ability that works as a rush ability extremely well than they would on a rush ability that is also a detaunt (as an example).
Balance the gains from each augment to make them all viable.
Stealth + crit-chance from Rogue, attack-speed, and root-CC from Ranger.
Why do we want to mix archetypes again?
To gain the beneficial effects from them.
Intrepid has just to figure out what is beneficial to us in PvX and what is not enough.
"Drastically change" is not the intent of any Augment.
"Fundamentally change" means that an Active Skill that Summons two things could be changed to Summon one larger thing or four+ smaller things. An Active Skill that Summons living animals could be changed to Summon Undead or blades/arrows or spirits or essences (or even minor Heals) - along with changes to the Damage Type.
Instead of a barrier blocking the path of the Rush Active Skill, a teleport Augment could Allow Rush to Blink past that barrier.
An Augmented Active Skill will still execute its Primary Archetype function.
The majority of the balancing comes from the Active Skill always achieving its Primary Archetype function - with an Augment, it won't always look or feel exactly the same.
But...Hallowed Ground will always execute the Primary function Hallowed Ground.
And Rush will always execute the Primary function of Rush.
Truth be told... All they have to do is have your main Class/ Augment have a majority of your abilities. Then have each class offer 5 extra abilities in the event you pick it as a secondary. It would offer variety but it would not be so complex in thinking 64 completely different classes are needed or implemented. Oh you want to be a fighter secondary... you get more 2 handed weapon abilities, a rage mode, etc. Oh you want to be a cleric secondary.... here are 4-5 extra shield/heal abilities...
This is pretty much what I was thinking. Add a few special abilities/augments c/w animations to make the subclass unique and then a bunch of generic subclass augments for another 10 abilities or something. You don't even have to make EVERY ability augmentable, pick a handful of core abilities for each class where a generic subclass augment makes sense. Sprinkler some amount of in game lore for class identity and boom u got 64 classes.
It can't be like you can have the "Teleportation" mage subclass augment on thousands of abilities. That just doesn't make sense. Like why be excited about getting teleport as a mage if you can be a ranger/mage and you can add teleport to every ability?
There are only a handful of "templatable heals" that can be applied to Barrage, Headshot, Hunt of the Tiger, and Lightning Reload all at the same time. Like what, "+5hp aoe heal on cast"? Then it's just about what you spam more, and every X/Cleric becomes a +aoe healbot? Clearly this can't be the answer.
Another way to do it could be sorting abilities by type. Defensive, Offensive, CC, etc. Then take a couple abilities from each type and allow them to be augmented with a group of templated augments for that ability type. Those abilities can be designed to meet criteria for the augmentation system to be applied.
For example:
Mage "Teleport" can be applied to two "Mobility" class abilities for each class.
Effect: Upon using augmented ability, phases out of existence for 2 seconds. During this time, the player can select a location within 25m to teleport to, and then apply the Mobility effect.
Then you really only need to design 7x2=14 abilities to be allowed this augment. Each ability can be designed from the ground up with the templates for each class in mind.
You also only need to balance around 14 abilities with this augment, rather than 7x40= 280 abilities with this augment.
Truth be told... All they have to do is have your main Class/ Augment have a majority of your abilities. Then have each class offer 5 extra abilities in the event you pick it as a secondary. It would offer variety but it would not be so complex in thinking 64 completely different classes are needed or implemented. Oh you want to be a fighter secondary... you get more 2 handed weapon abilities, a rage mode, etc. Oh you want to be a cleric secondary.... here are 4-5 extra shield/heal abilities...
Another way to do it could be to split up abilities by "type". Melee, Range, Defensive, Mobility, Healing, etc..
Give each class 2 abilities from each "type" that are augmentable.
If we assume 5 types and 8 classes, we get 80 "augmentable" abilities.
If each class has 3 templated augments for each of the 5 ability types, we have 15x8=120 augment templates to design.
An example:
Mage "Mobility" Augment - Teleport
When activating "Mobility" ability, character phases out of existence for 2 seconds. Player can click within a 25m radius to instantly teleport character and apply "Mobility" ability.
This augment could be applied to 2*8 (2 abilities, 8 classes) = 16 abilities. These 16 "Mobility" abilities should be designed and balanced from inception with the 24 "Mobility" augments in mind.
Otherwise we are talking about templating teleport and applying it to 320 skills. This just makes no sense.
how and why would it be better? how are you measuring that? are you implying that if they build the augment system the base classes will feel incomplete? that makes no sense. building one system doesnt mean you neglect another one.
In the sense that the class fantasy of the augmented archetype will feel incomplete. I feel like they should focus on the base archetype and its fantasy. Then make new classes in the future to make different feeling classes and builds to fill some other class fantasy. And I in current system, adding new archetypes will be a huge time investment and make things even more complicated and bring big balance issues if not done correct.
1- and let me tell you that if your concern is time, money and effort, making 2-4 new classes from scratch is much more money, time and effort than changing some properties in some skills. so what you said makes no sense to me.
To me it make sense since creating a new class that stands on its own will be easier than creating and balancing augmented spells that is related to every other archetype (this is only based on feeling and nothing else xD). Yes both takes time but I feel like creating and balancing 280-320 abilities for every class will take longer than creating a new class with 35-40 spells.
2- people will stack classes regardless. if you have 10-12 classes, people will pick the strongest for the party anyways. they are balancing around having 1 of each main archetype in the party. if they added more archetypes right now, they would have to go back to the drawing board and figure out what they are going to do now with parties. thats more time, money and effort
Yes people will stack classes, 100%. From what I have seen they have said that they won't balance for 1v1 and instead focus on group balance, and we have 8, 16 and 40 person groups sizes. So I dont think they only look at 8 man party with one of each archetype when balancing. And that would be weird, since most friend groups and guilds will NOT have an even spread of archetypes. So getting a group with one of each will be very very difficult for the average player.
It can be done like how it is in FF14 where you keep some of the old abilities and combine some with the secondary class to make new abilities.
People thinking that there will be 64 totally different classes... No, the game will have 8 classes and each one will have 8 modifiers.
If each Primary Archetype has 4 viable builds (based on the idea that you can't spec into everything anyway) before you even start augmenting, then even just going Magic/Martial on top of that would give you 64 variations.
Call them classes or not, but unless we're all using similar builds for similar goals, we're probably getting around 64 of SOMETHING.
People thinking that there will be 64 totally different classes... No, the game will have 8 classes and each one will have 8 modifiers.
But that's not the end of it when it comes to customization. Religion, Weapons, skill tree's, anything else? I do wonder often how far one base class can be from another with their build? I'm on the other side of the argument, I love options and creating and playing with builds.
People thinking that there will be 64 totally different classes... No, the game will have 8 classes and each one will have 8 modifiers.
I personally hope for the modifiers to turn out nicely, though. Especially since i want to "raise People's Spirits" and have their obedient, deceased Remains serve me in undead Servitude ... ... ...
No, honestly. The last time i played a "Necromancer" in a Game, was like ... ... ... was it Diablo Two ? lol
I think the one Addon/Expansion of Diablo Two.
Ahhhh ♥ ❤ ♥ the Time when " Dark Fantasy " was still nice, awesome - and scary.
I mean,
i know it still totally is - but i have the Impression you find a good " Dark Fantasy "-Game these Nowadays way, WAY harder, than in the past. 😓
Also, the way it looks. Each class will have two roles each. Unlike in WoW where some classes could have three or four roles each.
In some ways this can be more interesting as if you enjoy playing tanks, you dont need to reroll 5 different classes to try all the tank specs unless you really want to lol.
Can be a paladin one month and a Guardian the next.
Realistically for the alt-o-holics.. you only need to make 8 characters unless class and race is that personally significant to the player
I agree.
Also, it is very possible that classes that use the same two archetypes will mirror each other and be very different in how they play.
Your primary archetype is your general role with augments from your secondary archetype affecting those primary abilities.
If you pick a tank primary, your abilities are essentially still those tank abilities
If you add a cleric secondary, you're getting life and death augment options. You're still a tank, not a cleric.
If you pick a cleric primary with tank secondary, you're getting cleric abilities with whatever tank augments allowances are to those abilities. I'm assuming defensive bonuses for now.
Not really mirroring to be honest. There may be some benefits through weapon skills.
Well for pvp even small changes to class has a huge impact. For example the cleric subclas could offer a ranger cleric a self heal, which hunters normally do not have so it could help rnagers over come a weakness so that is a plus.
Plus if you augment just two abilities it can have a huge impact on your play style. Like having additional damage over time gameplay.
In general for me personally the more choices a player has the better.
But it does make class balance difficult. But if they just stick to win lose rates should be alright Riot has over 150 champions and they balance them out not perfect but do a decent job. Sometimes they do make mistakes but fix them changes come out like every or three weeks.
Think a more problematic issue is the wide range of items that players are going to have access to. Which is all of them.
Well for pvp even small changes to class has a huge impact. For example the cleric subclas could offer a ranger cleric a self heal, which hunters normally do not have so it could help rnagers over come a weakness so that is a plus.
Think a more problematic issue is the wide range of items that players are going to have access to. Which is all of them.
i disagree with this part. just because you can equip something, doesnt mean it will be effective on your character or build
Comments
If the statement from Jeffrey is false and there will actually be quite a bit of changes that you can make, both the 8*4 different kinds of augments for each of the 8 classes and with the added religious and other world augmentations/abilities, then that would be amazing. Basically creating and shaping your own fantasy.
However reading the wiki one see quotes like this which is much more of a thematic change and not an ability change.
But at the same time,
So I don't really know what to think. I hope it's more akin to what you said since a like the example you gave, but guess we will have to wait ans see.
My examples don't require fundamental changes though. A plain tank buff of "this aura gives +20 def to people in range" can just become "it now also provides 5hp/s healing". And a buff of "give the target +200 def for 5 secs" can have an addition of "and cleanse one debuff".
Obviously the balancing side would be a nightmare, but that is always the case in any game. And those kinds of additions would be counterbalanced by enemies having higher/different dmg due to augments or healing-preventing/diminishing effects.
Nothing drastically changes at the core, but the party composition and gameplay can be shifted slightly.
Giving concrete feedback ideas for them to decide if they are worth implementing is the way this goes.
Some things can be important to the devs so they want to implement them, but the power of constructive feedback is still greater if it makes more sense for millions of other people than what they brood about in their meetings and iterations of development.
Also what we brood out isn't always right, esp. if it isn't cohesive and on path with the core pillars of the devs...
The design philosophy is strong, but they need to stick to their pillars and fantasy guidelines and not deviate or branch out in the wrong direction as I feel they do sometimes with some of those abilities...
(summoning effect without summoner augmentations, elemental attacks without mage augmentations, and so on...)
That can be seen as nitpicky and inflexible, but it has to feel right since they decided on creating diverse class fantasies with explicit core fantasies that can be recognized from afar and by color, sound, and altogether by all design aspects!
I think there needs to be even more work put into these details or the archetypes by themselves won't sell to the players as immersive and diverse to play.
The target of a Wild Blade might be surrounded by a ring of Summoned Blades which each deal Physical Damage.
The target of a Necromancer might be fighting one Summoned Lich Mage that deals Shadow (Magical) Damage.
Different Augments on the same Active Skill.
Overall, the Active Skill deals the same amount of damage, but the tactics to combat the attack(s) would be significantly different. Also, the gear required to mitigate the damage would be significantly different.
So... not big changes - it's still a Summoner. But the stuff that gets Summoned with the same Active Skill can be significantly different depending on what Augment is attached to the Active Skill.
Also...
Yes. In your example, NiKr...
I'm probably going to choose my gear based on the tactics of my allies, so... either gear that stacks the Def buff or gear that buffs incoming Heals.
One the examples that Steven has given is that Rush can be blocked by a barrier, but if an Augment version of Blink is attached to Rush, the wielder can teleport through the barrier.
To me, summoning a singular fire elemental is fundamentally different to summoning 10 skeletons, which is fundamentally different to summoning 100 crows. If my expectation for the level of control afforded for each summon turns out to be remotely close to reality, then the difference between each of these summons will be even greater.
My expectation for Shadow Caster in regards to the mage Blink spell is that there will be an augment that puts you in to stealth while blinking. That is a fundamental change to the ability.
Would this stealth provide a detargetting effect? Or what would be the significance of the change? Cause I'd prefer if Blink-like abilities already provided that effect.
And in that context it could be said that the everpresent "rush is a blink now" example acquires a "significant change", but I don't personally see myself using rush as a detargetting tool. I'll appreciate that the functionality is there, and might choose it over other augments, but absolute majority of use cases for Rush will still be "positioning, with a slight chance of knockdown".
If we have 10, we would have basic control over what target each of them attacks, but not a whole lot more.
If we have 100, it would function like a swarm, we would have almost no control. This type of class would then likely see us using this kind of summon, then focus on other aspects for a while as this swarm does it's thing.
To me, I see no reason why this variation of summon abilities can't be achieves via augments. This - to me - constitutes the fundamental difference in the ability that Steven said augments will allow for. I don't think this matters in the context of this discussion. If one version of blink doesn't offer stealth, and another version does, that is a fundamental difference. So, you don't see rush as a detarget tool - that would mean that if an augment added it, that would fundamentally change the ability.
As for it's usefulness - perhaps it would be used as a tank CC's a ranged target, then rushes away, causing that ranged target to detarget the tank and be left standing there, by themselves, with no target.
I'm not saying it is the most useful of abilities, I am simply stating that an augment that adds a detarget to a rush ability is causing a drastic change to the function of the ability (that said, this wasn't one of the examples I gave).
I would actually argue that if an augment simply made a given ability (such a rush) a better rush, then that isn't a drastic change.
It is worth noting that Steven hasn't said that every augment will drastically change the base ability, the comment is simply that the augment system has the ability to do so. This is one of the reasons I see a likelihood of people doubling down on their class more often than statistics would suggest - many people would see more value in a rush ability that works as a rush ability extremely well than they would on a rush ability that is also a detaunt (as an example).
What would be the difference though? Maybe I misunderstood your original comment. Do you mean that the character would go into stealth for several seconds after the blink?
Cause yes, that would be a fairly big change, because now the effect of the ability would be prolonged severalfold and have a different function.
There is a chance that this would happen, but at that point I feel like the balancing of all augments would simply become the "everyone's OP, so just let them be" kind of thing.
No, I meant that if blink-rush had the detargeting effect (in the context of all blinks having it) then I'd still see rush as a mainly positional tool.
Which is exactly my point. I expect augments to simply make the base ability slightly better in one of the horizontal directions.
Your example for the summoner would either imply crazy stats on the solo summon or crazy small stats on the swarm. Otherwise the swarm is always better, unless its summon cd is smth like minutes-long (though even then I feel like outside of big fights with aoes, it'd still be quite op).
If you go for summoner as your secondary as a summoner, you would have a fairly solid expectation of having strong summons.
If you go for a Brood Warden, you would likely expect your summons to be (specifically) a family of birds.
Balance between these two would be achieved via other abilities. There is no need to specifically blance these two augments against each other, because there is no possible way for a player to be able to pick one or the other. They are picking the entier secondary class kit, and that kit determines which if these they have.
Thus, if you have a summoner class that is more focused on a single summons, all augments would focus more on it and players would have more control over it. On the other hand, other summoner classes may have less of a focus on singular summons and instead offer large groups, with other augments in thst class balanced more around that notion.
Technically this is you wanting more than what is possible from reality. You're a walking semiohazard.
Assuming you walk. Or define walking as a thing you do.
Also, TIL what a semiohazard is
Balance the gains from each augment to make them all viable.
Stealth + crit-chance from Rogue, attack-speed, and root-CC from Ranger.
Why do we want to mix archetypes again?
To gain the beneficial effects from them.
Intrepid has just to figure out what is beneficial to us in PvX and what is not enough.
I imagine the archetypes to define the primary function of the playstyle. (I mean that's stated facts from Steven i guess...)
So if we use the Summoner archetype as an example, there would be more of an emphasis on summoning stuff than anything else, even with augments.
Necromancers summon multiple undead creatures, Beastmasters summon a plethora of wild creatures and Brood Wardens summon mitigation-based meatshield creatures or something like that...
The Conjurer would be the class where your summons gets mixed with all the other summons.
If you play any other archetype like Cleric, for example, there would be more of an emphasis on healing abilities.
When paired with the summoner you would summon one healing support pet, like a phoenix.
When playing as Ranger-Summoner you would summon one falcon to support you.
as a tank the summon may be a flesh monstrosity, a mage a stone golem, as a fighter a big weapon...
The summoner as a primary archetype can spec into single/group/swarm summons with the secondary archetypes effects attached.
The summoner as a secondary archetype can spec only into single summons with the effects of the primary archetype attached.
"Fundamentally change" means that an Active Skill that Summons two things could be changed to Summon one larger thing or four+ smaller things. An Active Skill that Summons living animals could be changed to Summon Undead or blades/arrows or spirits or essences (or even minor Heals) - along with changes to the Damage Type.
Instead of a barrier blocking the path of the Rush Active Skill, a teleport Augment could Allow Rush to Blink past that barrier.
An Augmented Active Skill will still execute its Primary Archetype function.
The majority of the balancing comes from the Active Skill always achieving its Primary Archetype function - with an Augment, it won't always look or feel exactly the same.
But...Hallowed Ground will always execute the Primary function Hallowed Ground.
And Rush will always execute the Primary function of Rush.
Well using the language that IS use then we have 8 archetypes and 64 classes, that's why I said 64 classes. But yeah you are correct.
This is pretty much what I was thinking. Add a few special abilities/augments c/w animations to make the subclass unique and then a bunch of generic subclass augments for another 10 abilities or something. You don't even have to make EVERY ability augmentable, pick a handful of core abilities for each class where a generic subclass augment makes sense. Sprinkler some amount of in game lore for class identity and boom u got 64 classes.
It can't be like you can have the "Teleportation" mage subclass augment on thousands of abilities. That just doesn't make sense. Like why be excited about getting teleport as a mage if you can be a ranger/mage and you can add teleport to every ability?
There are only a handful of "templatable heals" that can be applied to Barrage, Headshot, Hunt of the Tiger, and Lightning Reload all at the same time. Like what, "+5hp aoe heal on cast"? Then it's just about what you spam more, and every X/Cleric becomes a +aoe healbot? Clearly this can't be the answer.
Another way to do it could be sorting abilities by type. Defensive, Offensive, CC, etc. Then take a couple abilities from each type and allow them to be augmented with a group of templated augments for that ability type. Those abilities can be designed to meet criteria for the augmentation system to be applied.
For example:
Mage "Teleport" can be applied to two "Mobility" class abilities for each class.
Effect: Upon using augmented ability, phases out of existence for 2 seconds. During this time, the player can select a location within 25m to teleport to, and then apply the Mobility effect.
Then you really only need to design 7x2=14 abilities to be allowed this augment. Each ability can be designed from the ground up with the templates for each class in mind.
You also only need to balance around 14 abilities with this augment, rather than 7x40= 280 abilities with this augment.
Another way to do it could be to split up abilities by "type". Melee, Range, Defensive, Mobility, Healing, etc..
An example:
Mage "Mobility" Augment - Teleport
When activating "Mobility" ability, character phases out of existence for 2 seconds. Player can click within a 25m radius to instantly teleport character and apply "Mobility" ability.
This augment could be applied to 2*8 (2 abilities, 8 classes) = 16 abilities. These 16 "Mobility" abilities should be designed and balanced from inception with the 24 "Mobility" augments in mind.
Otherwise we are talking about templating teleport and applying it to 320 skills. This just makes no sense.
It can be done like how it is in FF14 where you keep some of the old abilities and combine some with the secondary class to make new abilities.
Exactly
If each Primary Archetype has 4 viable builds (based on the idea that you can't spec into everything anyway) before you even start augmenting, then even just going Magic/Martial on top of that would give you 64 variations.
Call them classes or not, but unless we're all using similar builds for similar goals, we're probably getting around 64 of SOMETHING.
But that's not the end of it when it comes to customization. Religion, Weapons, skill tree's, anything else? I do wonder often how far one base class can be from another with their build? I'm on the other side of the argument, I love options and creating and playing with builds.
I personally hope for the modifiers to turn out nicely, though. Especially since i want to "raise People's Spirits" and have their obedient, deceased Remains serve me in undead Servitude ... ... ...
No, honestly. The last time i played a "Necromancer" in a Game, was like ... ... ... was it Diablo Two ? lol
I think the one Addon/Expansion of Diablo Two.
Ahhhh ♥ ❤ ♥ the Time when " Dark Fantasy " was still nice, awesome - and scary.
I mean,
i know it still totally is - but i have the Impression you find a good " Dark Fantasy "-Game these Nowadays way, WAY harder, than in the past. 😓
Your primary archetype is your general role with augments from your secondary archetype affecting those primary abilities.
If you pick a tank primary, your abilities are essentially still those tank abilities
https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Tank
If you add a cleric secondary, you're getting life and death augment options. You're still a tank, not a cleric.
If you pick a cleric primary with tank secondary, you're getting cleric abilities with whatever tank augments allowances are to those abilities. I'm assuming defensive bonuses for now.
Not really mirroring to be honest. There may be some benefits through weapon skills.
Plus if you augment just two abilities it can have a huge impact on your play style. Like having additional damage over time gameplay.
In general for me personally the more choices a player has the better.
But it does make class balance difficult. But if they just stick to win lose rates should be alright Riot has over 150 champions and they balance them out not perfect but do a decent job. Sometimes they do make mistakes but fix them changes come out like every or three weeks.
Think a more problematic issue is the wide range of items that players are going to have access to. Which is all of them.
i disagree with this part. just because you can equip something, doesnt mean it will be effective on your character or build