Yes there are 8 archetypes with 35-40 unique active skills each; and each of these base skills can be modified with one out of 4 augementation school based on the selected "augmentation archetype".
This would sum up to a total of
280-320 unique base skills overall
32 skills that can be created from one base skill
8'960-10'240 active skills in total for Intrepid to design
Has this actually been said? Or is it possible that, of the 35-40 unique skills, a quarter have 2 augment choices and another quarter have 4 augment choices? This would half the work required and still be plenty of variation between archetypes.
Then we would get
280-320 unique base skills overall
8*((1/4)*2)+((1/4)*4)+(1/2)*1) = 16x variations of skills
4480-5120 active skills
And again, if we imagine a skill like Barrage to have 8*4=32 variations, most of these might just be a simple colour palette change and some tweaks on the number side (does fire damage, adds bleed, etc.) Maybe only 3 variations change something about the actual skill that requires new assets.
The majority of the work is developing the initial 300 base skills.
Yes finally someone got it down to the core!
The base skills from the archetypes are what matter most.
A Tree grows from the seed, roots, sprout, stem, branches, twigs, and then leaves.
You guys need to be patient enough and wait until the core kits for each archetype are ready, balanced around mechanics, fantasy, proper animations, visceral sound design, and intuitive fluid action gameplay.
That's the roots and the stem, growing slowly but steadily.
The branches will follow by designing the augments around the core abilities.
The twigs are the different possible ways to augment one skill.
The leaves represent all the interconnected abilities and the effort of balancing them with each other over months and years of gameplay feedback, debugging, tweaking of numbers, and the fine-tuning the dev team will be confronted with shortly before, at, and after launch.
The core design of the classes should heavily depend on the design philosophy. A constant circle of reiteration of builds to feel out ideas and feedback to prove those as fun gameplay, and the open-minded discussions with intern dev teams and with external community members.
Until the base is satisfying to play we will have to help and wait through A2 until before the beta I guess.
Then they will start to introduce the full builds with multiple augments and all 64 classes.
Not polished of course but playable to the point, where we can give wholehearted feedback.
If not... well launch without all classes and skills and there will be a disaster over social media.
Rather stretch out playtesting, reiterations of minor details but with major issues, debug the crap out of the systems, stress test every possible base system possible and polish the game to a satisfying degree and then have a successful launch and millions of happy players. If your server system isn't underperforming and unflexible af...
After seeing the ranger update I'm very confident in IS being able to make some great classes. However, I'm starting to doubt the 64 class model and would rather have around 10-12 well designed and unique classes that is also well balanced (in a group play setting).
64 different classes would be cool, but it will take a lot of work/time and money to make all those classes feel unique, have depth in its gameplay and be a viable option for PvP or PvE. Yes, the biggest hurdle is to create a good base archetype, but making the second archetype feel important and impactful will still be a HUGE hurdle and a big time investment. I'm convinced that IS could make it happen, but I'm not sure if it's worth it?
The augment class system is a way for Ashes of Creation to have their cake and eat it to.
One of the issues with MMO is that most MMO are designed so each class/archetype is different from the other classes/archetypes.
This augment class system allows for classes that are similar but different enough such classes could not be merged together.
Done right this will allow most players to find the archetype combination that suits them best.
The difference in class/archetypes is a good thing, you can then have a vastly different class mechanics and class fantasy so people can find the class they connect the most to and feel different from any other class.
The augmented system, as you said, is just a small change and classes will feel the same and you will never be able to get a complete class fantasy of your new class (2 combined archetypes). So what you will have is 8 different classes with 8 small changes in style and fantasy that will just feel incomplete.
I do think that the augmented system can be amazing if they put a lot of time and effort in to it, but I'm still unsure if it's worth it. To me it will be much interesting if they continue to create classes they way have (love the ranger and the cleric for example) and scrap they 8 augmented system to spend more time on core archetypes and maybe new ones in the future.
You are only speaking for yourself of course but still wrong. It is better to do what they are doing which will make the class much more interesting and allow people to have their own flavor and style than everyone being the same generic ranger.
And for those that want to be the more generic one that will be in the game all you have to do is go ranger / ranger.
I feel you are setting your expectations to unreachable levels and using that as your argument why they suddenly don't have "time" (again that just sounds like you want to rush the game out of development).
All mmorpgs (well most) have class customization, The customization AoC is doing is having that around the augments.
There aren't 64 classes at all... In reality only 8 which in my opinion is very little and I hope that with time they increase the amount... But yh you can mix up 2 classes and it will be given an unique name for that class... Honestly I prefer the archeage class system, 3 classes instead of 1 and you can always change and level up the classes you want
After seeing the ranger update I'm very confident in IS being able to make some great classes. However, I'm starting to doubt the 64 class model and would rather have around 10-12 well designed and unique classes that is also well balanced (in a group play setting).
64 different classes would be cool, but it will take a lot of work/time and money to make all those classes feel unique, have depth in its gameplay and be a viable option for PvP or PvE. Yes, the biggest hurdle is to create a good base archetype, but making the second archetype feel important and impactful will still be a HUGE hurdle and a big time investment. I'm convinced that IS could make it happen, but I'm not sure if it's worth it?
The augment class system is a way for Ashes of Creation to have their cake and eat it to.
One of the issues with MMO is that most MMO are designed so each class/archetype is different from the other classes/archetypes.
This augment class system allows for classes that are similar but different enough such classes could not be merged together.
Done right this will allow most players to find the archetype combination that suits them best.
The difference in class/archetypes is a good thing, you can then have a vastly different class mechanics and class fantasy so people can find the class they connect the most to and feel different from any other class.
The augmented system, as you said, is just a small change and classes will feel the same and you will never be able to get a complete class fantasy of your new class (2 combined archetypes). So what you will have is 8 different classes with 8 small changes in style and fantasy that will just feel incomplete.
I do think that the augmented system can be amazing if they put a lot of time and effort in to it, but I'm still unsure if it's worth it. To me it will be much interesting if they continue to create classes they way have (love the ranger and the cleric for example) and scrap they 8 augmented system to spend more time on core archetypes and maybe new ones in the future.
You are only speaking for yourself of course but still wrong. It is better to do what they are doing which will make the class much more interesting and allow people to have their own flavor and style than everyone being the same generic ranger.
And for those that want to be the more generic one that will be in the game all you have to do is go ranger / ranger.
I feel you are setting your expectations to unreachable levels and using that as your argument why they suddenly don't have "time" (again that just sounds like you want to rush the game out of development).
All mmorpgs (well most) have class customization, The customization AoC is doing is having that around the augments.
The problem is that the augmented system will, yes take time, but it will also not change much about the class and its mechanics. And its the change in mechanics of a class that makes it feel different and have variation.
I'm also not saying that they shouldn't have different specs or variation within a class, I just dont think it's necessary to create 8 variations just because there is 8 archetypes.
And no, I do not want them to rush out the game. I have been following this game since the start of the Kickstarter in 2017. I can wait. I just want them to think over what they spend their time on and make it worth it. A system that creates variation just because to create variation isn't a system I think they should focus on.
Based on the effects, looks like there’s just one class. Wizard. The rest are augments based on weapon choice and play style with the option to multi-class into Wizard.
Examples:
Wizard
Bow Wizard
Big Sword Wizard
Shield Wizard
Healing Wizard
Sneaky Wizard
Buff Wizard
And the rarely seen Summon Things Wizard
Based on the effects, looks like there’s just one class. Wizard. The rest are augments based on weapon choice and play style with the option to multi-class into Wizard.
Examples:
Wizard
Bow Wizard
Big Sword Wizard
Shield Wizard
Healing Wizard
Sneaky Wizard
Buff Wizard
And the rarely seen Summon Things Wizard
I don't think something like +300 Base Abilities alone will be a difficult thing. It is just a Challenge for the Start of the Game, but hasn't like every MMO with +5 Classes so much Abilities at one Point in time ?
After seeing the ranger update I'm very confident in IS being able to make some great classes. However, I'm starting to doubt the 64 class model and would rather have around 10-12 well designed and unique classes that is also well balanced (in a group play setting).
64 different classes would be cool, but it will take a lot of work/time and money to make all those classes feel unique, have depth in its gameplay and be a viable option for PvP or PvE. Yes, the biggest hurdle is to create a good base archetype, but making the second archetype feel important and impactful will still be a HUGE hurdle and a big time investment. I'm convinced that IS could make it happen, but I'm not sure if it's worth it?
The augment class system is a way for Ashes of Creation to have their cake and eat it to.
One of the issues with MMO is that most MMO are designed so each class/archetype is different from the other classes/archetypes.
This augment class system allows for classes that are similar but different enough such classes could not be merged together.
Done right this will allow most players to find the archetype combination that suits them best.
The difference in class/archetypes is a good thing, you can then have a vastly different class mechanics and class fantasy so people can find the class they connect the most to and feel different from any other class.
The augmented system, as you said, is just a small change and classes will feel the same and you will never be able to get a complete class fantasy of your new class (2 combined archetypes). So what you will have is 8 different classes with 8 small changes in style and fantasy that will just feel incomplete.
I do think that the augmented system can be amazing if they put a lot of time and effort in to it, but I'm still unsure if it's worth it. To me it will be much interesting if they continue to create classes they way have (love the ranger and the cleric for example) and scrap they 8 augmented system to spend more time on core archetypes and maybe new ones in the future.
You are only speaking for yourself of course but still wrong. It is better to do what they are doing which will make the class much more interesting and allow people to have their own flavor and style than everyone being the same generic ranger.
And for those that want to be the more generic one that will be in the game all you have to do is go ranger / ranger.
I feel you are setting your expectations to unreachable levels and using that as your argument why they suddenly don't have "time" (again that just sounds like you want to rush the game out of development).
All mmorpgs (well most) have class customization, The customization AoC is doing is having that around the augments.
The problem is that the augmented system will, yes take time, but it will also not change much about the class and its mechanics. And its the change in mechanics of a class that makes it feel different and have variation.
I'm also not saying that they shouldn't have different specs or variation within a class, I just dont think it's necessary to create 8 variations just because there is 8 archetypes.
And no, I do not want them to rush out the game. I have been following this game since the start of the Kickstarter in 2017. I can wait. I just want them to think over what they spend their time on and make it worth it. A system that creates variation just because to create variation isn't a system I think they should focus on.
There is not a problem, its a problem you are coming up in your own head....The changes the argument system bring based on current understandings is completely fine and impactful. IE Warrior leaves trail of fire that does DoT or their charge becomes a teleport as an example. That is where the customization comes into play and player choice.
Again this sounds like a you problems wanting them to have less skills because you think its not do able even though you aren't working for them o.O. I've explained before already that it is like lego blocks, you can take effects from other elements of the classes and use it which reduces a lot of the work value....
If later on the decide it won't meet their schedule and it is too much and they choose to do half of them and do more later on that is for them to decide. Your suggestion is literarily saying for them to just stop so they can release it sooner Ie* only have ranger/ ranger, warrior/warrior, ect and remove all the other ones.
They have deadlines to meet and plans they are following they are doing more than just thinking things over people working there on these things not just thinking about it.
There is not a problem, its a problem you are coming up in your own head....The changes the argument system bring based on current understandings is completely fine and impactful. IE Warrior leaves trail of fire that does DoT or their charge becomes a teleport as an example. That is where the customization comes into play and player choice.
Sorry I should have said a possible problem, that yes l'm coming up with in my own head. The changes they have mentioned is not class changing that it will feel like a new class that have a different type of class fantasy. Yes it's a choice of customization that players will have and may bring variation. But why feel the need to create 8 variations just because? To me it would be much better to focus on the base archetype and what makes sense in that class fantasy rather than create 8 different half classes. Yes this may not be a problem, it's just a concern I have.
Again this sounds like a you problems wanting them to have less skills because you think its not do able even though you aren't working for them o.O. I've explained before already that it is like lego blocks, you can take effects from other elements of the classes and use it which reduces a lot of the work value....
Yes the start always takes the longest (base abilities) but creating as many active abilities they are trying to do, that will take a lot of effort and time just because they decide back in 2017 that they wanted 64 classes. This is just about them looking and thinking things over and maybe reevaluate what the game needs.
If later on the decide it won't meet their schedule and it is too much and they choose to do half of them and do more later on that is for them to decide. Your suggestion is literarily saying for them to just stop so they can release it sooner Ie* only have ranger/ ranger, warrior/warrior, ect and remove all the other ones.
They have deadlines to meet and plans they are following they are doing more than just thinking things over people working there on these things not just thinking about it.
This is not about releasing the game sooner, I have never said that and would never want that. This is about them spending time on the game where it's worth it. And from what I have seen from the augmented system, I don't personally feel it's worth it. This may however change when they show it off in a future live stream or in a future play test period.
There is not a problem, its a problem you are coming up in your own head....The changes the argument system bring based on current understandings is completely fine and impactful. IE Warrior leaves trail of fire that does DoT or their charge becomes a teleport as an example. That is where the customization comes into play and player choice.
Sorry I should have said a possible problem, that yes l'm coming up with in my own head. The changes they have mentioned is not class changing that it will feel like a new class that have a different type of class fantasy. Yes it's a choice of customization that players will have and may bring variation. But why feel the need to create 8 variations just because? To me it would be much better to focus on the base archetype and what makes sense in that class fantasy rather than create 8 different half classes. Yes this may not be a problem, it's just a concern I have.
Again this sounds like a you problems wanting them to have less skills because you think its not do able even though you aren't working for them o.O. I've explained before already that it is like lego blocks, you can take effects from other elements of the classes and use it which reduces a lot of the work value....
Yes the start always takes the longest (base abilities) but creating as many active abilities they are trying to do, that will take a lot of effort and time just because they decide back in 2017 that they wanted 64 classes. This is just about them looking and thinking things over and maybe reevaluate what the game needs.
If later on the decide it won't meet their schedule and it is too much and they choose to do half of them and do more later on that is for them to decide. Your suggestion is literarily saying for them to just stop so they can release it sooner Ie* only have ranger/ ranger, warrior/warrior, ect and remove all the other ones.
They have deadlines to meet and plans they are following they are doing more than just thinking things over people working there on these things not just thinking about it.
This is not about releasing the game sooner, I have never said that and would never want that. This is about them spending time on the game where it's worth it. And from what I have seen from the augmented system, I don't personally feel it's worth it. This may however change when they show it off in a future live stream or in a future play test period.
Why are you talking about half classes, I feel you really don't understand the current class system int he game. The current classes will be completely, you can't augment all their skills at the same time you have limited skill points...That means from lvl 1-50 all those skills will work without a augment effecting it.
You really need to get this idea of "Half ass" out of your mind they are designing a system in a certain way they aren't half assing it, nor does less classes mean more abilities for a single class...That is literally not how they are designing it.
I've pointed out multiple times points against your concerns based on some things with development. I think at this point its time for you to stop using the buzzward and give details on why you exactly have those concerns or comment on my own points.
Again you bringing up 2017 sounds like you are wanting them to rush the game out, that year has nothing to do with anything 2017 they were not in full development with 270 employees...They scale up based on their needs and based on their schedule people are literarily paid to make, held accountable and adjust if need be.
You don't feel it is worth it so you don't care sure. I feel it is worth it and plenty of other people based on their expectation of it. That is where your class customization again will come from, the same way other mmorpgs have has class customization i similar ways this is nothing new.....All you can say is that they are doing double the amount compared to other mmorpgs as a lose number.
Quick example I can easily use is rift at launch had 16 unique classes, that means 16 unique classes fof abilities and 16 unique skill trees. You can make the argument AoC has more classes / mixes. But that is not exactly true as it does not have 16 unique skill trees but one per archetype. Now does it have unique abilities per class but those core of those abilities change based on the class combination and will have a intended base to work from.
So current archetypes well be fully fleshed out and your customization and class tweaking comes from your augments / archetype.
You concern is you want them to focus on the archetype and it will be focused on since that will be where most your skills come from... I think you have some weird idea that devs won't do work suddenly mixed with a higher expectation of the augment system else you feel it is pointless to have (which is very far from the truth).
Also as usual things are still in development temper expectations some classes might be left out, maybe all skills won't be augmentable, etc. That is your indication on a "time or other issue". You need to have grounds for what you are saying not just use buzzwords. Because if we go off sololy what we all think that gets us no where but living in our own headspace. It doesn't help get your point across.
There aren't 64 classes at all... In reality only 8 which in my opinion is very little and I hope that with time they increase the amount... But yh you can mix up 2 classes and it will be given an unique name for that class... Honestly I prefer the archeage class system, 3 classes instead of 1 and you can always change and level up the classes you want
Do you have psychic powers or can you travel into the future?!
Ofc they can develop a bad system without much diversity between the subclasses but the design philosophy behind the system is to have 8 archetypes with the core abilities for their specific gameplay fantasy.
Intrepid is still working these basics out.
The combination of each archetype however through the augment system will diversify the abilities you can use with your primary archetype and can feel vastly different in playstyle from just playing with the core abilities.
Hence the different naming for the subclasses.
The ambitious nature of designing 64 subclasses makes it hard to achieve fast and we won't have all subclasses before the beta I can guarantee you that.
But don't state negative presumptions as facts because you are frustrated about waiting for the game to be fully developed...
If you don't like the class system when the game is out as intended then play Archeage.
What you speak of is catering to the masses and that fires against the meaningful choices pillar for AoC.
I don't think something like +300 Base Abilities alone will be a difficult thing. It is just a Challenge for the Start of the Game, but hasn't like every MMO with +5 Classes so much Abilities at one Point in time ?
Passive and active Abilities counted together.
"Hi, ich bin neu hier."
It's difficult but following their development progress, it should be possible in the end.
The groundwork for the archetypes is the worst bottleneck for the devs.
When they worked that out it's just about mixing and matching them together and tweaking the numbers until they are balanced. After everyone's happy and all "Steven passes" are accomplished the polishing of the subclass fantasy begins.
Or everything gets worked and iterated on multiple times as Steven said every time something about classes was asked on the live streams.
I assume we get one subclass after the other or in bundles starting in A2 until the beta phases with a development progression of about 60-70% depending on the difficulty of implementing diverse options and how much the skills are changing from the original ones.
There is not a problem, its a problem you are coming up in your own head....The changes the argument system bring based on current understandings is completely fine and impactful. IE Warrior leaves trail of fire that does DoT or their charge becomes a teleport as an example. That is where the customization comes into play and player choice.
Sorry I should have said a possible problem, that yes l'm coming up with in my own head. The changes they have mentioned is not class changing that it will feel like a new class that have a different type of class fantasy. Yes it's a choice of customization that players will have and may bring variation. But why feel the need to create 8 variations just because? To me it would be much better to focus on the base archetype and what makes sense in that class fantasy rather than create 8 different half classes. Yes this may not be a problem, it's just a concern I have.
Again this sounds like a you problems wanting them to have less skills because you think its not do able even though you aren't working for them o.O. I've explained before already that it is like lego blocks, you can take effects from other elements of the classes and use it which reduces a lot of the work value....
Yes the start always takes the longest (base abilities) but creating as many active abilities they are trying to do, that will take a lot of effort and time just because they decide back in 2017 that they wanted 64 classes. This is just about them looking and thinking things over and maybe reevaluate what the game needs.
If later on the decide it won't meet their schedule and it is too much and they choose to do half of them and do more later on that is for them to decide. Your suggestion is literarily saying for them to just stop so they can release it sooner Ie* only have ranger/ ranger, warrior/warrior, ect and remove all the other ones.
They have deadlines to meet and plans they are following they are doing more than just thinking things over people working there on these things not just thinking about it.
This is not about releasing the game sooner, I have never said that and would never want that. This is about them spending time on the game where it's worth it. And from what I have seen from the augmented system, I don't personally feel it's worth it. This may however change when they show it off in a future live stream or in a future play test period.
What did you see from the augmented system other than design philosophy out of Stevens mouth and on paper? oO
You go in circles because you don't want to believe that Intrepid is capable of doing what they say.
I can understand that coming from multiple games where that was the case 100% but seeing what they are capable of throughout the development process shows me their passion and how genuine they go about this project and us as a community. Have a bit of faith!
Why are you talking about half classes, I feel you really don't understand the current class system int he game. The current classes will be completely, you can't augment all their skills at the same time you have limited skill points...That means from lvl 1-50 all those skills will work without a augment effecting it.
Well neither do you, since we have not yet seen the full effect of the augment system. I do think that the base archetype will feel complete, I'm just saying that I don't see the 2 combined archetypes (classes) being/feel complete. In the sense that people wanting to play, for example, Paladin, Templar, warlock or necromancer will never feel like it's a true and complete class with the small augmented system that we are expecting.
I've pointed out multiple times points against your concerns based on some things with development. I think at this point its time for you to stop using the buzzward and give details on why you exactly have those concerns or comment on my own points.
Well my core concern is that having "64 classes" where most of them will be and feel the same, both in class mechanics but also class fantasy, if they stick with the small changes that the augmented system is. I know that people say "well technically there only is 8 classes" and I agree with that, but then you add the expectation that you will somehow feel like an warlock because you add some "dark magic" or some other change to the mage spells.
But also that it will be much more difficult to add a new archetypes in the future. Only because they want the same number of augments as base archetypes. More archetypes will bring more and more augments and much more complexity that they will need to balance. And being concern about how a studio spends their time is a valid concern, and that's not the same as saying I want them to rush out the game.
So different types of class mechanics/fantasies and future classes is my biggest concern.
Again you bringing up 2017 sounds like you are wanting them to rush the game out, that year has nothing to do with anything 2017 they were not in full development with 270 employees...They scale up based on their needs and based on their schedule people are literarily paid to make, held accountable and adjust if need be.
I must saying that I have followed this game (on and off) for soon 7 years, and I have no problem waiting 7 more years. There is many other games I can play in the meantime.
You don't feel it is worth it so you don't care sure. I feel it is worth it and plenty of other people based on their expectation of it. That is where your class customization again will come from, the same way other mmorpgs have has class customization i similar ways this is nothing new.....All you can say is that they are doing double the amount compared to other mmorpgs as a lose number.
Yes, this is all based on expectations, and if they show of the augmented system and it's fantastic then I will change my mind and be very happy about it. But based on what I have read and heard about the system, I'm not convinced it's a solid system that will bring variation and class fantasies as some may expect.
You concern is you want them to focus on the archetype and it will be focused on since that will be where most your skills come from... I think you have some weird idea that devs won't do work suddenly mixed with a higher expectation of the augment system else you feel it is pointless to have (which is very far from the truth).
I don't think that they will stop so their work, I'm just saying that I don't think they will be able to create 8 variations and 8 different feeling classes for each of the 8 archetypes. Based on the fact that the augmented system will only effect current abilities in a small way.
Also as usual things are still in development temper expectations some classes might be left out, maybe all skills won't be augmentable, etc. That is your indication on a "time or other issue". You need to have grounds for what you are saying not just use buzzwords. Because if we go off sololy what we all think that gets us no where but living in our own headspace. It doesn't help get your point across.
Well this is all about what we think since we have yet too see the system we are talking about. Yes we have a few quotes but not much.
There is not a problem, its a problem you are coming up in your own head....The changes the argument system bring based on current understandings is completely fine and impactful. IE Warrior leaves trail of fire that does DoT or their charge becomes a teleport as an example. That is where the customization comes into play and player choice.
Sorry I should have said a possible problem, that yes l'm coming up with in my own head. The changes they have mentioned is not class changing that it will feel like a new class that have a different type of class fantasy. Yes it's a choice of customization that players will have and may bring variation. But why feel the need to create 8 variations just because? To me it would be much better to focus on the base archetype and what makes sense in that class fantasy rather than create 8 different half classes. Yes this may not be a problem, it's just a concern I have.
Again this sounds like a you problems wanting them to have less skills because you think its not do able even though you aren't working for them o.O. I've explained before already that it is like lego blocks, you can take effects from other elements of the classes and use it which reduces a lot of the work value....
Yes the start always takes the longest (base abilities) but creating as many active abilities they are trying to do, that will take a lot of effort and time just because they decide back in 2017 that they wanted 64 classes. This is just about them looking and thinking things over and maybe reevaluate what the game needs.
If later on the decide it won't meet their schedule and it is too much and they choose to do half of them and do more later on that is for them to decide. Your suggestion is literarily saying for them to just stop so they can release it sooner Ie* only have ranger/ ranger, warrior/warrior, ect and remove all the other ones.
They have deadlines to meet and plans they are following they are doing more than just thinking things over people working there on these things not just thinking about it.
This is not about releasing the game sooner, I have never said that and would never want that. This is about them spending time on the game where it's worth it. And from what I have seen from the augmented system, I don't personally feel it's worth it. This may however change when they show it off in a future live stream or in a future play test period.
What did you see from the augmented system other than design philosophy out of Stevens mouth and on paper? oO
You go in circles because you don't want to believe that Intrepid is capable of doing what they say.
I can understand that coming from multiple games where that was the case 100% but seeing what they are capable of throughout the development process shows me their passion and how genuine they go about this project and us as a community. Have a bit of faith!
I'm not convinced that what Steven is saying is a good system, not from the facts that we have been given.
I know that they are capable of doing amazing things, and I was amazed with the ranger class they showed. I'm just not sure the 8 augmented classes per archetype is the best way to create variation in classes. It's a complex system from just small change per ability, and will only get more complex in the future if they want to add more archetypes.
There is not a problem, its a problem you are coming up in your own head....The changes the argument system bring based on current understandings is completely fine and impactful. IE Warrior leaves trail of fire that does DoT or their charge becomes a teleport as an example. That is where the customization comes into play and player choice.
Sorry I should have said a possible problem, that yes l'm coming up with in my own head. The changes they have mentioned is not class changing that it will feel like a new class that have a different type of class fantasy. Yes it's a choice of customization that players will have and may bring variation. But why feel the need to create 8 variations just because? To me it would be much better to focus on the base archetype and what makes sense in that class fantasy rather than create 8 different half classes. Yes this may not be a problem, it's just a concern I have.
Again this sounds like a you problems wanting them to have less skills because you think its not do able even though you aren't working for them o.O. I've explained before already that it is like lego blocks, you can take effects from other elements of the classes and use it which reduces a lot of the work value....
Yes the start always takes the longest (base abilities) but creating as many active abilities they are trying to do, that will take a lot of effort and time just because they decide back in 2017 that they wanted 64 classes. This is just about them looking and thinking things over and maybe reevaluate what the game needs.
If later on the decide it won't meet their schedule and it is too much and they choose to do half of them and do more later on that is for them to decide. Your suggestion is literarily saying for them to just stop so they can release it sooner Ie* only have ranger/ ranger, warrior/warrior, ect and remove all the other ones.
They have deadlines to meet and plans they are following they are doing more than just thinking things over people working there on these things not just thinking about it.
This is not about releasing the game sooner, I have never said that and would never want that. This is about them spending time on the game where it's worth it. And from what I have seen from the augmented system, I don't personally feel it's worth it. This may however change when they show it off in a future live stream or in a future play test period.
Why are you talking about half classes, I feel you really don't understand the current class system int he game. The current classes will be completely, you can't augment all their skills at the same time you have limited skill points...That means from lvl 1-50 all those skills will work without a augment effecting it.
You really need to get this idea of "Half ass" out of your mind they are designing a system in a certain way they aren't half assing it, nor does less classes mean more abilities for a single class...That is literally not how they are designing it.
I've pointed out multiple times points against your concerns based on some things with development. I think at this point its time for you to stop using the buzzward and give details on why you exactly have those concerns or comment on my own points.
Again you bringing up 2017 sounds like you are wanting them to rush the game out, that year has nothing to do with anything 2017 they were not in full development with 270 employees...They scale up based on their needs and based on their schedule people are literarily paid to make, held accountable and adjust if need be.
You don't feel it is worth it so you don't care sure. I feel it is worth it and plenty of other people based on their expectation of it. That is where your class customization again will come from, the same way other mmorpgs have has class customization i similar ways this is nothing new.....All you can say is that they are doing double the amount compared to other mmorpgs as a lose number.
Quick example I can easily use is rift at launch had 16 unique classes, that means 16 unique classes fof abilities and 16 unique skill trees. You can make the argument AoC has more classes / mixes. But that is not exactly true as it does not have 16 unique skill trees but one per archetype. Now does it have unique abilities per class but those core of those abilities change based on the class combination and will have a intended base to work from.
So current archetypes well be fully fleshed out and your customization and class tweaking comes from your augments / archetype.
You concern is you want them to focus on the archetype and it will be focused on since that will be where most your skills come from... I think you have some weird idea that devs won't do work suddenly mixed with a higher expectation of the augment system else you feel it is pointless to have (which is very far from the truth).
Also as usual things are still in development temper expectations some classes might be left out, maybe all skills won't be augmentable, etc. That is your indication on a "time or other issue". You need to have grounds for what you are saying not just use buzzwords. Because if we go off sololy what we all think that gets us no where but living in our own headspace. It doesn't help get your point across.
Not sure what happened, but my more detailed response somehow got deleted.
But the main concern is that the "64 classes" will be and feel the same, both in class mechanics and class fantasy. A player wanting to play a Paladin or warlock will never feel like a Paladin, just a shield warrior with some holy dmg.
If, in the future, they want to add more archetypes it will be very difficult and complex, even though the augment system in it self is very simple.
Being concern about how a studio spends their time is a valid concern. And that does not mean I want them to rush out the game. I have soon waited for 7 years and I can wait 7 more, there is many other games I can play in the meantime.
There is not a problem, its a problem you are coming up in your own head....The changes the argument system bring based on current understandings is completely fine and impactful. IE Warrior leaves trail of fire that does DoT or their charge becomes a teleport as an example. That is where the customization comes into play and player choice.
Sorry I should have said a possible problem, that yes l'm coming up with in my own head. The changes they have mentioned is not class changing that it will feel like a new class that have a different type of class fantasy. Yes it's a choice of customization that players will have and may bring variation. But why feel the need to create 8 variations just because? To me it would be much better to focus on the base archetype and what makes sense in that class fantasy rather than create 8 different half classes. Yes this may not be a problem, it's just a concern I have.
Again this sounds like a you problems wanting them to have less skills because you think its not do able even though you aren't working for them o.O. I've explained before already that it is like lego blocks, you can take effects from other elements of the classes and use it which reduces a lot of the work value....
Yes the start always takes the longest (base abilities) but creating as many active abilities they are trying to do, that will take a lot of effort and time just because they decide back in 2017 that they wanted 64 classes. This is just about them looking and thinking things over and maybe reevaluate what the game needs.
If later on the decide it won't meet their schedule and it is too much and they choose to do half of them and do more later on that is for them to decide. Your suggestion is literarily saying for them to just stop so they can release it sooner Ie* only have ranger/ ranger, warrior/warrior, ect and remove all the other ones.
They have deadlines to meet and plans they are following they are doing more than just thinking things over people working there on these things not just thinking about it.
This is not about releasing the game sooner, I have never said that and would never want that. This is about them spending time on the game where it's worth it. And from what I have seen from the augmented system, I don't personally feel it's worth it. This may however change when they show it off in a future live stream or in a future play test period.
Why are you talking about half classes, I feel you really don't understand the current class system int he game. The current classes will be completely, you can't augment all their skills at the same time you have limited skill points...That means from lvl 1-50 all those skills will work without a augment effecting it.
You really need to get this idea of "Half ass" out of your mind they are designing a system in a certain way they aren't half assing it, nor does less classes mean more abilities for a single class...That is literally not how they are designing it.
I've pointed out multiple times points against your concerns based on some things with development. I think at this point its time for you to stop using the buzzward and give details on why you exactly have those concerns or comment on my own points.
Again you bringing up 2017 sounds like you are wanting them to rush the game out, that year has nothing to do with anything 2017 they were not in full development with 270 employees...They scale up based on their needs and based on their schedule people are literarily paid to make, held accountable and adjust if need be.
You don't feel it is worth it so you don't care sure. I feel it is worth it and plenty of other people based on their expectation of it. That is where your class customization again will come from, the same way other mmorpgs have has class customization i similar ways this is nothing new.....All you can say is that they are doing double the amount compared to other mmorpgs as a lose number.
Quick example I can easily use is rift at launch had 16 unique classes, that means 16 unique classes fof abilities and 16 unique skill trees. You can make the argument AoC has more classes / mixes. But that is not exactly true as it does not have 16 unique skill trees but one per archetype. Now does it have unique abilities per class but those core of those abilities change based on the class combination and will have a intended base to work from.
So current archetypes well be fully fleshed out and your customization and class tweaking comes from your augments / archetype.
You concern is you want them to focus on the archetype and it will be focused on since that will be where most your skills come from... I think you have some weird idea that devs won't do work suddenly mixed with a higher expectation of the augment system else you feel it is pointless to have (which is very far from the truth).
Also as usual things are still in development temper expectations some classes might be left out, maybe all skills won't be augmentable, etc. That is your indication on a "time or other issue". You need to have grounds for what you are saying not just use buzzwords. Because if we go off sololy what we all think that gets us no where but living in our own headspace. It doesn't help get your point across.
Sorry not sure what happened, but my more detailed response got deleted when I tried too edit.
But my main concern is that the "64 classes" will be and feel the same. Both in class mechanics and class fantasy. A player wanting to play as a Paladin will never be a true paladin, only a shield warrior with some holy dmg (this is an assumption).
And that it will be unnecessary difficult to add new archetypes, just because they want the same number of augments as archetypes. The system will become more complex even though the augmented system in it self is simple and won't change abilities much.
Being concern about how a studio spends their time is a valid concern, and that doesn't mean I want them to rush out the game. I have been following this game for soon 7 years and I can wait 7 more years. There is many different games I can play in the meantime.
A player wanting to play as a Paladin will never be a true paladin, only a shield warrior with some holy dmg (this is an assumption).
What exactly is a "true paladin"? Is it wow paladin? Cause that seems to be the only fucking fantasy people have.
L2's paladins were still tanks, but they could also provide a limited amount of healing to their group. I expect AoC's pals to do the same, so if I ever wanted to be a healing tank - I'd be my exact fantasy of a Paladin.
It turns out that there isn't one concrete fantasy image for any given concept, because each game has its own spin on that concept. Ashes will have yet another spin on the concepts presented as class names.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Steven keeps saying that augments will somehow bring big changes to abilities, but I'll believe that when I see it. But even if they will - that's gonna be happening waaaay later in A2.
Archetype v Classes is semantics.
Primary Archetype is the Ashes term for Class.
Secondary Archetype is the Ashes term for Sub-Class.
Steven has never said "big changes". Rather, it's not just minimal flavor.
In many cases the changes will be significant.
It's what allows a Py'Rai Tank to play differently from an Empyrean Tank.
More importantly, it's what allows a Mitigation Tank to play differently from an Evasion Tank.
Steven has never said "big changes". Rather, it's not just minimal flavor.
In many cases the changes will be significant.
It's what allows a Py'Rai Tank to play differently from an Empyrean Tank.
More importantly, it's what allows a Mitigation Tank to play differently from an Evasion Tank.
"Plans not surviving first contact" and all of that. I expect racial bonuses to amount to maaaybe 5% of overall player build, if that. Augments will probably be ~30-40% (I'm talking all augments, not just class) and the rest will be gear/buffs/guild benefits.
There is not a problem, its a problem you are coming up in your own head....The changes the argument system bring based on current understandings is completely fine and impactful. IE Warrior leaves trail of fire that does DoT or their charge becomes a teleport as an example. That is where the customization comes into play and player choice.
Sorry I should have said a possible problem, that yes l'm coming up with in my own head. The changes they have mentioned is not class changing that it will feel like a new class that have a different type of class fantasy. Yes it's a choice of customization that players will have and may bring variation. But why feel the need to create 8 variations just because? To me it would be much better to focus on the base archetype and what makes sense in that class fantasy rather than create 8 different half classes. Yes this may not be a problem, it's just a concern I have.
Again this sounds like a you problems wanting them to have less skills because you think its not do able even though you aren't working for them o.O. I've explained before already that it is like lego blocks, you can take effects from other elements of the classes and use it which reduces a lot of the work value....
Yes the start always takes the longest (base abilities) but creating as many active abilities they are trying to do, that will take a lot of effort and time just because they decide back in 2017 that they wanted 64 classes. This is just about them looking and thinking things over and maybe reevaluate what the game needs.
If later on the decide it won't meet their schedule and it is too much and they choose to do half of them and do more later on that is for them to decide. Your suggestion is literarily saying for them to just stop so they can release it sooner Ie* only have ranger/ ranger, warrior/warrior, ect and remove all the other ones.
They have deadlines to meet and plans they are following they are doing more than just thinking things over people working there on these things not just thinking about it.
This is not about releasing the game sooner, I have never said that and would never want that. This is about them spending time on the game where it's worth it. And from what I have seen from the augmented system, I don't personally feel it's worth it. This may however change when they show it off in a future live stream or in a future play test period.
Why are you talking about half classes, I feel you really don't understand the current class system int he game. The current classes will be completely, you can't augment all their skills at the same time you have limited skill points...That means from lvl 1-50 all those skills will work without a augment effecting it.
You really need to get this idea of "Half ass" out of your mind they are designing a system in a certain way they aren't half assing it, nor does less classes mean more abilities for a single class...That is literally not how they are designing it.
I've pointed out multiple times points against your concerns based on some things with development. I think at this point its time for you to stop using the buzzward and give details on why you exactly have those concerns or comment on my own points.
Again you bringing up 2017 sounds like you are wanting them to rush the game out, that year has nothing to do with anything 2017 they were not in full development with 270 employees...They scale up based on their needs and based on their schedule people are literarily paid to make, held accountable and adjust if need be.
You don't feel it is worth it so you don't care sure. I feel it is worth it and plenty of other people based on their expectation of it. That is where your class customization again will come from, the same way other mmorpgs have has class customization i similar ways this is nothing new.....All you can say is that they are doing double the amount compared to other mmorpgs as a lose number.
Quick example I can easily use is rift at launch had 16 unique classes, that means 16 unique classes fof abilities and 16 unique skill trees. You can make the argument AoC has more classes / mixes. But that is not exactly true as it does not have 16 unique skill trees but one per archetype. Now does it have unique abilities per class but those core of those abilities change based on the class combination and will have a intended base to work from.
So current archetypes well be fully fleshed out and your customization and class tweaking comes from your augments / archetype.
You concern is you want them to focus on the archetype and it will be focused on since that will be where most your skills come from... I think you have some weird idea that devs won't do work suddenly mixed with a higher expectation of the augment system else you feel it is pointless to have (which is very far from the truth).
Also as usual things are still in development temper expectations some classes might be left out, maybe all skills won't be augmentable, etc. That is your indication on a "time or other issue". You need to have grounds for what you are saying not just use buzzwords. Because if we go off sololy what we all think that gets us no where but living in our own headspace. It doesn't help get your point across.
Sorry not sure what happened, but my more detailed response got deleted when I tried too edit.
But my main concern is that the "64 classes" will be and feel the same. Both in class mechanics and class fantasy. A player wanting to play as a Paladin will never be a true paladin, only a shield warrior with some holy dmg (this is an assumption).
And that it will be unnecessary difficult to add new archetypes, just because they want the same number of augments as archetypes. The system will become more complex even though the augmented system in it self is simple and won't change abilities much.
Being concern about how a studio spends their time is a valid concern, and that doesn't mean I want them to rush out the game. I have been following this game for soon 7 years and I can wait 7 more years. There is many different games I can play in the meantime.
My expectation for a paladins literarily a warrior with some holy type skills, some healing some protection based on how players decide to go with their class fantasy (what skills they pick to augment) on top of item customization to further boost their direction. Which is akin to DnD a warrior with skills that are lower level skills than cleric with a bit of their own flavor of style.
no one here is expecting a class revolving around paladin from lvl 1-50.
I feel you have a certain type of class they aren't providing that you want and are worried it won't be interesting enough to you if it is only done from augmenting .
I do however believe that people will most likely play their class (2 archetype combo) and not their base archetype. And then respect their second archetype to fit what is needed. So technically now you need to fit 64 "classes" into a 8 slots party.
Maybe I'm just miss understanding the small/big impact the argumentations will have.
Again, your abilities don't change. Their core functionality doesn't change. Obviously some groups will be looking for very specific builds, but that will always be the case, and that is also why repseccing your class is possible.
As NiKr explained quite well...
You have no choice but to play your Primary Archetype because that's where you get your Primary Active Skills. Augments (from the Secondary Archetype or Race or Social Org or Religion) are attached to those Active Skills.
So...
An Oracle, a Protector and a Shadow Disciple would all be using Hallowed Ground to Heal allies and Damage enemies.
The Oracle might attach an Augment which changes the Damage from Holy Damage to Lightning Damage.
The Protector might attach an Augment which changes the Damage from Holy Damage to Nature Damage.
The Shadow Disciple might attach an Augment which changes the Damage from Holy Damage to Poison Damage.
That helps the Cleric Primary Archetype stack their Damage with another Primary Archetype in their group.
The Oracle can synergize attacks with the Mages in their group.
The Protector can synergyze attacks with the Rangers in their group.
The Shadow Disciple can synergize attacks with the Rogues in their group.
It's not a "big" change, but it can be significant.
Also helps players pay attention to others in their group to fight together in mini-teams. Rather than just myopically focusing on your own rotation as if you were fighting solo.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
edited December 2023
*meh*
This is basically the same thing as an "Should Ashes have separate PvE-Only servers... I think the answer is YES!" topic.
We haven't even tested Augments, yet.
Test it. Then we will have sufficient evidence to support the claim they should not be implemented.
"Plans not surviving first contact" and all of that. I expect racial bonuses to amount to maaaybe 5% of overall player build, if that. Augments will probably be ~30-40% (I'm talking all augments, not just class) and the rest will be gear/buffs/guild benefits.
"Bonus" is kind of irrelevant when it comes to Augments.
Augments are Horizontal Progression, rather than Vertical Progression.
Racial Augments are not competing with gear/buffs/guild benefits.
Racial Augments are about how you play your Primary Archetype differently than another player using the exact same equipped Active Skills.
I don't think you can really provide a percentage in the manner that you did.
Because it really means that my Assassin spends 80% of their time supporting the Shadow Disciple and 20% supporting the Archwizard.
In a group with multiple Empyreans, they might spend 70% of their time supporting each other via their Racial Augments.
Because, again, Augments are not just about how you execute your personal rotation - they are also about how you can use your Augments to synergize with others in your group.
Because, again, Augments are not just about how you execute your personal rotation - they are also about how you can use your Augments to synergize with others in your group.
That's what I'm talking about. However the augments are designed, I'd imagine that a racial augment will only come up in the synergy interplay <5% of your gameplay time. And the other % apply in the same way.
Obviously I can be wrong because we know 0 fucking info about any of that stuff at this point, but that's just my prediction for what it will likely be.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
If Secondary Archetype changes your role, that's sounds like a distinct class rather than a subtle variation of the primary archetype.
I guess my prediction is that in some cases it will be more dramatic than others, and in some cases even dramatic enough to change the character's role.
I mean... depends on what is meant by "role".
If "off-Tank" is a role...
Augments allow a Cleric to be a kind of "off-Mage" or "off-Rogue" or "off-Ranger" - if the Cleric chooses Mage or Rogue or Ranger as their Secondary Archetype.
A player wanting to play as a Paladin will never be a true paladin, only a shield warrior with some holy dmg (this is an assumption).
What exactly is a "true paladin"? Is it wow paladin? Cause that seems to be the only fucking fantasy people have.
L2's paladins were still tanks, but they could also provide a limited amount of healing to their group. I expect AoC's pals to do the same, so if I ever wanted to be a healing tank - I'd be my exact fantasy of a Paladin.
It turns out that there isn't one concrete fantasy image for any given concept, because each game has its own spin on that concept. Ashes will have yet another spin on the concepts presented as class names.
I agree, a Paladin should be a Tank that can help with healing and cast some holy magic spells. I have never really been into the class fantasy of holy magical classes but I like the description for Paladins from DnD,
"Paladins train for years to learn the skills of combat, mastering a variety of weapons and armor. Even so, their martial skills are secondary to the magical power they wield: power to heal the sick and injured, to smite the wicked and the undead, and to protect the innocent and those who join them in the fight for justice."
And you are completely right, every game have it's on spinn on classes and its fantasy. I just hope that the small changes that the augmented system bring will be enough to separate them from the base archetype, which I currently don't think it will hence my scepticism of the 64 classes model.
Because I don't think they will add healing spells or cure magic/disease to the tool kit of a Tank+Cleric. It will just be the same tank abilities with some change of the damage dealt, or some small added friendly healing effect. This is just assumptions based on my current understanding of the augmented system and that it will mainly only be minor (or maybe some more major) modifications of current abilities.
There is not a problem, its a problem you are coming up in your own head....The changes the argument system bring based on current understandings is completely fine and impactful. IE Warrior leaves trail of fire that does DoT or their charge becomes a teleport as an example. That is where the customization comes into play and player choice.
Sorry I should have said a possible problem, that yes l'm coming up with in my own head. The changes they have mentioned is not class changing that it will feel like a new class that have a different type of class fantasy. Yes it's a choice of customization that players will have and may bring variation. But why feel the need to create 8 variations just because? To me it would be much better to focus on the base archetype and what makes sense in that class fantasy rather than create 8 different half classes. Yes this may not be a problem, it's just a concern I have.
Again this sounds like a you problems wanting them to have less skills because you think its not do able even though you aren't working for them o.O. I've explained before already that it is like lego blocks, you can take effects from other elements of the classes and use it which reduces a lot of the work value....
Yes the start always takes the longest (base abilities) but creating as many active abilities they are trying to do, that will take a lot of effort and time just because they decide back in 2017 that they wanted 64 classes. This is just about them looking and thinking things over and maybe reevaluate what the game needs.
If later on the decide it won't meet their schedule and it is too much and they choose to do half of them and do more later on that is for them to decide. Your suggestion is literarily saying for them to just stop so they can release it sooner Ie* only have ranger/ ranger, warrior/warrior, ect and remove all the other ones.
They have deadlines to meet and plans they are following they are doing more than just thinking things over people working there on these things not just thinking about it.
This is not about releasing the game sooner, I have never said that and would never want that. This is about them spending time on the game where it's worth it. And from what I have seen from the augmented system, I don't personally feel it's worth it. This may however change when they show it off in a future live stream or in a future play test period.
Why are you talking about half classes, I feel you really don't understand the current class system int he game. The current classes will be completely, you can't augment all their skills at the same time you have limited skill points...That means from lvl 1-50 all those skills will work without a augment effecting it.
You really need to get this idea of "Half ass" out of your mind they are designing a system in a certain way they aren't half assing it, nor does less classes mean more abilities for a single class...That is literally not how they are designing it.
I've pointed out multiple times points against your concerns based on some things with development. I think at this point its time for you to stop using the buzzward and give details on why you exactly have those concerns or comment on my own points.
Again you bringing up 2017 sounds like you are wanting them to rush the game out, that year has nothing to do with anything 2017 they were not in full development with 270 employees...They scale up based on their needs and based on their schedule people are literarily paid to make, held accountable and adjust if need be.
You don't feel it is worth it so you don't care sure. I feel it is worth it and plenty of other people based on their expectation of it. That is where your class customization again will come from, the same way other mmorpgs have has class customization i similar ways this is nothing new.....All you can say is that they are doing double the amount compared to other mmorpgs as a lose number.
Quick example I can easily use is rift at launch had 16 unique classes, that means 16 unique classes fof abilities and 16 unique skill trees. You can make the argument AoC has more classes / mixes. But that is not exactly true as it does not have 16 unique skill trees but one per archetype. Now does it have unique abilities per class but those core of those abilities change based on the class combination and will have a intended base to work from.
So current archetypes well be fully fleshed out and your customization and class tweaking comes from your augments / archetype.
You concern is you want them to focus on the archetype and it will be focused on since that will be where most your skills come from... I think you have some weird idea that devs won't do work suddenly mixed with a higher expectation of the augment system else you feel it is pointless to have (which is very far from the truth).
Also as usual things are still in development temper expectations some classes might be left out, maybe all skills won't be augmentable, etc. That is your indication on a "time or other issue". You need to have grounds for what you are saying not just use buzzwords. Because if we go off sololy what we all think that gets us no where but living in our own headspace. It doesn't help get your point across.
Sorry not sure what happened, but my more detailed response got deleted when I tried too edit.
But my main concern is that the "64 classes" will be and feel the same. Both in class mechanics and class fantasy. A player wanting to play as a Paladin will never be a true paladin, only a shield warrior with some holy dmg (this is an assumption).
And that it will be unnecessary difficult to add new archetypes, just because they want the same number of augments as archetypes. The system will become more complex even though the augmented system in it self is simple and won't change abilities much.
Being concern about how a studio spends their time is a valid concern, and that doesn't mean I want them to rush out the game. I have been following this game for soon 7 years and I can wait 7 more years. There is many different games I can play in the meantime.
My expectation for a paladins literarily a warrior with some holy type skills, some healing some protection based on how players decide to go with their class fantasy (what skills they pick to augment) on top of item customization to further boost their direction. Which is akin to DnD a warrior with skills that are lower level skills than cleric with a bit of their own flavor of style.
no one here is expecting a class revolving around paladin from lvl 1-50.
I feel you have a certain type of class they aren't providing that you want and are worried it won't be interesting enough to you if it is only done from augmenting .
I'm not worried I won't find a class I will enjoy, the ranger for example looked extremely fun. I'm usually a healer and the cleric looked good but I'm not a big fan of the holy aspect of classes. So yes, I am also a little bit worried that my most enjoyed class will not be provided (now or in the future), which is why I'm little bit concerned about the future difficulties of adding new archetypes with this system.
Because I don't think they will add healing spells or cure magic/disease to the tool kit of a Tank+Cleric. It will just be the same tank abilities with some change of the damage dealt, or some small added friendly healing effect. This is just assumptions based on my current understanding of the augmented system and that it will mainly only be minor (or maybe some more major) modifications of current abilities.
Class augments will supposedly have particular schools that we can choose, so if a paladin wants to max out their healing power - they'll just choose the school of augments that give the most healing/cleansing effects. Add to that +healing gear and maybe some religious augments and you have yourself a fairly strong paladin-healer, whose core functionality hasn't really changed.
Another paladin might go into a holy dmg build, while yet another might concentrate on the death side of clerics (whichever form that will have).
All of them will still be tanks at their core, but their greater role in the party would shift slightly and the party itself would have to be built accordingly too.
Comments
Yes finally someone got it down to the core!
The base skills from the archetypes are what matter most.
A Tree grows from the seed, roots, sprout, stem, branches, twigs, and then leaves.
You guys need to be patient enough and wait until the core kits for each archetype are ready, balanced around mechanics, fantasy, proper animations, visceral sound design, and intuitive fluid action gameplay.
That's the roots and the stem, growing slowly but steadily.
The branches will follow by designing the augments around the core abilities.
The twigs are the different possible ways to augment one skill.
The leaves represent all the interconnected abilities and the effort of balancing them with each other over months and years of gameplay feedback, debugging, tweaking of numbers, and the fine-tuning the dev team will be confronted with shortly before, at, and after launch.
The core design of the classes should heavily depend on the design philosophy. A constant circle of reiteration of builds to feel out ideas and feedback to prove those as fun gameplay, and the open-minded discussions with intern dev teams and with external community members.
Until the base is satisfying to play we will have to help and wait through A2 until before the beta I guess.
Then they will start to introduce the full builds with multiple augments and all 64 classes.
Not polished of course but playable to the point, where we can give wholehearted feedback.
If not... well launch without all classes and skills and there will be a disaster over social media.
Rather stretch out playtesting, reiterations of minor details but with major issues, debug the crap out of the systems, stress test every possible base system possible and polish the game to a satisfying degree and then have a successful launch and millions of happy players. If your server system isn't underperforming and unflexible af...
You are only speaking for yourself of course but still wrong. It is better to do what they are doing which will make the class much more interesting and allow people to have their own flavor and style than everyone being the same generic ranger.
And for those that want to be the more generic one that will be in the game all you have to do is go ranger / ranger.
I feel you are setting your expectations to unreachable levels and using that as your argument why they suddenly don't have "time" (again that just sounds like you want to rush the game out of development).
All mmorpgs (well most) have class customization, The customization AoC is doing is having that around the augments.
The problem is that the augmented system will, yes take time, but it will also not change much about the class and its mechanics. And its the change in mechanics of a class that makes it feel different and have variation.
I'm also not saying that they shouldn't have different specs or variation within a class, I just dont think it's necessary to create 8 variations just because there is 8 archetypes.
And no, I do not want them to rush out the game. I have been following this game since the start of the Kickstarter in 2017. I can wait. I just want them to think over what they spend their time on and make it worth it. A system that creates variation just because to create variation isn't a system I think they should focus on.
Based on the effects, looks like there’s just one class. Wizard. The rest are augments based on weapon choice and play style with the option to multi-class into Wizard.
Examples:
Wizard
Bow Wizard
Big Sword Wizard
Shield Wizard
Healing Wizard
Sneaky Wizard
Buff Wizard
And the rarely seen Summon Things Wizard
</END SARCASM>
No sarcasm needed
Ahoi da, mein werter Mit-Gothic Fan. 👋🙂
" Reject German. Return to English. (lol) "
I don't think something like +300 Base Abilities alone will be a difficult thing. It is just a Challenge for the Start of the Game, but hasn't like every MMO with +5 Classes so much Abilities at one Point in time ?
Passive and active Abilities counted together.
There is not a problem, its a problem you are coming up in your own head....The changes the argument system bring based on current understandings is completely fine and impactful. IE Warrior leaves trail of fire that does DoT or their charge becomes a teleport as an example. That is where the customization comes into play and player choice.
Again this sounds like a you problems wanting them to have less skills because you think its not do able even though you aren't working for them o.O. I've explained before already that it is like lego blocks, you can take effects from other elements of the classes and use it which reduces a lot of the work value....
If later on the decide it won't meet their schedule and it is too much and they choose to do half of them and do more later on that is for them to decide. Your suggestion is literarily saying for them to just stop so they can release it sooner Ie* only have ranger/ ranger, warrior/warrior, ect and remove all the other ones.
They have deadlines to meet and plans they are following they are doing more than just thinking things over people working there on these things not just thinking about it.
Sorry I should have said a possible problem, that yes l'm coming up with in my own head. The changes they have mentioned is not class changing that it will feel like a new class that have a different type of class fantasy. Yes it's a choice of customization that players will have and may bring variation. But why feel the need to create 8 variations just because? To me it would be much better to focus on the base archetype and what makes sense in that class fantasy rather than create 8 different half classes. Yes this may not be a problem, it's just a concern I have.
Yes the start always takes the longest (base abilities) but creating as many active abilities they are trying to do, that will take a lot of effort and time just because they decide back in 2017 that they wanted 64 classes. This is just about them looking and thinking things over and maybe reevaluate what the game needs.
This is not about releasing the game sooner, I have never said that and would never want that. This is about them spending time on the game where it's worth it. And from what I have seen from the augmented system, I don't personally feel it's worth it. This may however change when they show it off in a future live stream or in a future play test period.
Why are you talking about half classes, I feel you really don't understand the current class system int he game. The current classes will be completely, you can't augment all their skills at the same time you have limited skill points...That means from lvl 1-50 all those skills will work without a augment effecting it.
You really need to get this idea of "Half ass" out of your mind they are designing a system in a certain way they aren't half assing it, nor does less classes mean more abilities for a single class...That is literally not how they are designing it.
I've pointed out multiple times points against your concerns based on some things with development. I think at this point its time for you to stop using the buzzward and give details on why you exactly have those concerns or comment on my own points.
Again you bringing up 2017 sounds like you are wanting them to rush the game out, that year has nothing to do with anything 2017 they were not in full development with 270 employees...They scale up based on their needs and based on their schedule people are literarily paid to make, held accountable and adjust if need be.
You don't feel it is worth it so you don't care sure. I feel it is worth it and plenty of other people based on their expectation of it. That is where your class customization again will come from, the same way other mmorpgs have has class customization i similar ways this is nothing new.....All you can say is that they are doing double the amount compared to other mmorpgs as a lose number.
Quick example I can easily use is rift at launch had 16 unique classes, that means 16 unique classes fof abilities and 16 unique skill trees. You can make the argument AoC has more classes / mixes. But that is not exactly true as it does not have 16 unique skill trees but one per archetype. Now does it have unique abilities per class but those core of those abilities change based on the class combination and will have a intended base to work from.
So current archetypes well be fully fleshed out and your customization and class tweaking comes from your augments / archetype.
You concern is you want them to focus on the archetype and it will be focused on since that will be where most your skills come from... I think you have some weird idea that devs won't do work suddenly mixed with a higher expectation of the augment system else you feel it is pointless to have (which is very far from the truth).
Also as usual things are still in development temper expectations some classes might be left out, maybe all skills won't be augmentable, etc. That is your indication on a "time or other issue". You need to have grounds for what you are saying not just use buzzwords. Because if we go off sololy what we all think that gets us no where but living in our own headspace. It doesn't help get your point across.
Do you have psychic powers or can you travel into the future?!
Ofc they can develop a bad system without much diversity between the subclasses but the design philosophy behind the system is to have 8 archetypes with the core abilities for their specific gameplay fantasy.
Intrepid is still working these basics out.
The combination of each archetype however through the augment system will diversify the abilities you can use with your primary archetype and can feel vastly different in playstyle from just playing with the core abilities.
Hence the different naming for the subclasses.
The ambitious nature of designing 64 subclasses makes it hard to achieve fast and we won't have all subclasses before the beta I can guarantee you that.
But don't state negative presumptions as facts because you are frustrated about waiting for the game to be fully developed...
If you don't like the class system when the game is out as intended then play Archeage.
What you speak of is catering to the masses and that fires against the meaningful choices pillar for AoC.
"Hi, ich bin neu hier."
It's difficult but following their development progress, it should be possible in the end.
The groundwork for the archetypes is the worst bottleneck for the devs.
When they worked that out it's just about mixing and matching them together and tweaking the numbers until they are balanced. After everyone's happy and all "Steven passes" are accomplished the polishing of the subclass fantasy begins.
Or everything gets worked and iterated on multiple times as Steven said every time something about classes was asked on the live streams.
I assume we get one subclass after the other or in bundles starting in A2 until the beta phases with a development progression of about 60-70% depending on the difficulty of implementing diverse options and how much the skills are changing from the original ones.
What did you see from the augmented system other than design philosophy out of Stevens mouth and on paper? oO
You go in circles because you don't want to believe that Intrepid is capable of doing what they say.
I can understand that coming from multiple games where that was the case 100% but seeing what they are capable of throughout the development process shows me their passion and how genuine they go about this project and us as a community. Have a bit of faith!
Well neither do you, since we have not yet seen the full effect of the augment system. I do think that the base archetype will feel complete, I'm just saying that I don't see the 2 combined archetypes (classes) being/feel complete. In the sense that people wanting to play, for example, Paladin, Templar, warlock or necromancer will never feel like it's a true and complete class with the small augmented system that we are expecting.
Well my core concern is that having "64 classes" where most of them will be and feel the same, both in class mechanics but also class fantasy, if they stick with the small changes that the augmented system is. I know that people say "well technically there only is 8 classes" and I agree with that, but then you add the expectation that you will somehow feel like an warlock because you add some "dark magic" or some other change to the mage spells.
But also that it will be much more difficult to add a new archetypes in the future. Only because they want the same number of augments as base archetypes. More archetypes will bring more and more augments and much more complexity that they will need to balance. And being concern about how a studio spends their time is a valid concern, and that's not the same as saying I want them to rush out the game.
So different types of class mechanics/fantasies and future classes is my biggest concern.
I must saying that I have followed this game (on and off) for soon 7 years, and I have no problem waiting 7 more years. There is many other games I can play in the meantime.
Yes, this is all based on expectations, and if they show of the augmented system and it's fantastic then I will change my mind and be very happy about it. But based on what I have read and heard about the system, I'm not convinced it's a solid system that will bring variation and class fantasies as some may expect.
I don't think that they will stop so their work, I'm just saying that I don't think they will be able to create 8 variations and 8 different feeling classes for each of the 8 archetypes. Based on the fact that the augmented system will only effect current abilities in a small way.
Well this is all about what we think since we have yet too see the system we are talking about. Yes we have a few quotes but not much.
I'm not convinced that what Steven is saying is a good system, not from the facts that we have been given.
I know that they are capable of doing amazing things, and I was amazed with the ranger class they showed. I'm just not sure the 8 augmented classes per archetype is the best way to create variation in classes. It's a complex system from just small change per ability, and will only get more complex in the future if they want to add more archetypes.
Not sure what happened, but my more detailed response somehow got deleted.
But the main concern is that the "64 classes" will be and feel the same, both in class mechanics and class fantasy. A player wanting to play a Paladin or warlock will never feel like a Paladin, just a shield warrior with some holy dmg.
If, in the future, they want to add more archetypes it will be very difficult and complex, even though the augment system in it self is very simple.
Being concern about how a studio spends their time is a valid concern. And that does not mean I want them to rush out the game. I have soon waited for 7 years and I can wait 7 more, there is many other games I can play in the meantime.
Sorry not sure what happened, but my more detailed response got deleted when I tried too edit.
But my main concern is that the "64 classes" will be and feel the same. Both in class mechanics and class fantasy. A player wanting to play as a Paladin will never be a true paladin, only a shield warrior with some holy dmg (this is an assumption).
And that it will be unnecessary difficult to add new archetypes, just because they want the same number of augments as archetypes. The system will become more complex even though the augmented system in it self is simple and won't change abilities much.
Being concern about how a studio spends their time is a valid concern, and that doesn't mean I want them to rush out the game. I have been following this game for soon 7 years and I can wait 7 more years. There is many different games I can play in the meantime.
L2's paladins were still tanks, but they could also provide a limited amount of healing to their group. I expect AoC's pals to do the same, so if I ever wanted to be a healing tank - I'd be my exact fantasy of a Paladin.
It turns out that there isn't one concrete fantasy image for any given concept, because each game has its own spin on that concept. Ashes will have yet another spin on the concepts presented as class names.
Primary Archetype is the Ashes term for Class.
Secondary Archetype is the Ashes term for Sub-Class.
Steven has never said "big changes". Rather, it's not just minimal flavor.
In many cases the changes will be significant.
It's what allows a Py'Rai Tank to play differently from an Empyrean Tank.
More importantly, it's what allows a Mitigation Tank to play differently from an Evasion Tank.
My expectation for a paladins literarily a warrior with some holy type skills, some healing some protection based on how players decide to go with their class fantasy (what skills they pick to augment) on top of item customization to further boost their direction. Which is akin to DnD a warrior with skills that are lower level skills than cleric with a bit of their own flavor of style.
no one here is expecting a class revolving around paladin from lvl 1-50.
I feel you have a certain type of class they aren't providing that you want and are worried it won't be interesting enough to you if it is only done from augmenting .
As NiKr explained quite well...
You have no choice but to play your Primary Archetype because that's where you get your Primary Active Skills. Augments (from the Secondary Archetype or Race or Social Org or Religion) are attached to those Active Skills.
So...
An Oracle, a Protector and a Shadow Disciple would all be using Hallowed Ground to Heal allies and Damage enemies.
The Oracle might attach an Augment which changes the Damage from Holy Damage to Lightning Damage.
The Protector might attach an Augment which changes the Damage from Holy Damage to Nature Damage.
The Shadow Disciple might attach an Augment which changes the Damage from Holy Damage to Poison Damage.
That helps the Cleric Primary Archetype stack their Damage with another Primary Archetype in their group.
The Oracle can synergize attacks with the Mages in their group.
The Protector can synergyze attacks with the Rangers in their group.
The Shadow Disciple can synergize attacks with the Rogues in their group.
It's not a "big" change, but it can be significant.
Also helps players pay attention to others in their group to fight together in mini-teams. Rather than just myopically focusing on your own rotation as if you were fighting solo.
This is basically the same thing as an "Should Ashes have separate PvE-Only servers... I think the answer is YES!" topic.
We haven't even tested Augments, yet.
Test it. Then we will have sufficient evidence to support the claim they should not be implemented.
Augments are Horizontal Progression, rather than Vertical Progression.
Racial Augments are not competing with gear/buffs/guild benefits.
Racial Augments are about how you play your Primary Archetype differently than another player using the exact same equipped Active Skills.
I don't think you can really provide a percentage in the manner that you did.
Because it really means that my Assassin spends 80% of their time supporting the Shadow Disciple and 20% supporting the Archwizard.
In a group with multiple Empyreans, they might spend 70% of their time supporting each other via their Racial Augments.
Because, again, Augments are not just about how you execute your personal rotation - they are also about how you can use your Augments to synergize with others in your group.
Obviously I can be wrong because we know 0 fucking info about any of that stuff at this point, but that's just my prediction for what it will likely be.
If "off-Tank" is a role...
Augments allow a Cleric to be a kind of "off-Mage" or "off-Rogue" or "off-Ranger" - if the Cleric chooses Mage or Rogue or Ranger as their Secondary Archetype.
I agree, a Paladin should be a Tank that can help with healing and cast some holy magic spells. I have never really been into the class fantasy of holy magical classes but I like the description for Paladins from DnD,
"Paladins train for years to learn the skills of combat, mastering a variety of weapons and armor. Even so, their martial skills are secondary to the magical power they wield: power to heal the sick and injured, to smite the wicked and the undead, and to protect the innocent and those who join them in the fight for justice."
And you are completely right, every game have it's on spinn on classes and its fantasy. I just hope that the small changes that the augmented system bring will be enough to separate them from the base archetype, which I currently don't think it will hence my scepticism of the 64 classes model.
Because I don't think they will add healing spells or cure magic/disease to the tool kit of a Tank+Cleric. It will just be the same tank abilities with some change of the damage dealt, or some small added friendly healing effect. This is just assumptions based on my current understanding of the augmented system and that it will mainly only be minor (or maybe some more major) modifications of current abilities.
I'm not worried I won't find a class I will enjoy, the ranger for example looked extremely fun. I'm usually a healer and the cleric looked good but I'm not a big fan of the holy aspect of classes. So yes, I am also a little bit worried that my most enjoyed class will not be provided (now or in the future), which is why I'm little bit concerned about the future difficulties of adding new archetypes with this system.
Another paladin might go into a holy dmg build, while yet another might concentrate on the death side of clerics (whichever form that will have).
All of them will still be tanks at their core, but their greater role in the party would shift slightly and the party itself would have to be built accordingly too.