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Favorite and least favorite mechanics to face in PvP

Wandering MistWandering Mist Moderator, Member, Founder, Kickstarter, Alpha One
When making a multiplayer game it's important to think about mechanics that are fun to use, but also fun to play against.

With that in mind I'd like you to list the mechanics you love to play against, as well as mechanics you hate to play against.

I'll start. I love to play against positional-based abilities and terrain-based CC. For example, abilities that have different effects depending on if the target is facing towards you or away from you. For terrain-based CC, this is something quite common in games like LoL but rarely seen outside of it, where you have some kind of knockback ability and if you knock someone into a wall, they get stunned.

I hate playing against any kind of invisibility or stealth, especially when there's no visual indicator that someone is invisible near you.

That's it for me, so what are YOUR favorite and least favorite game mechanics?

DISCLAIMER: I am NOT making this thread as a member of Intrepid Studios and nothing in this thread is meant to provide feedback to the developers. This is purely for fun and an interesting discussion point.
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Comments

  • i like stealth ;3
  • Wandering MistWandering Mist Moderator, Member, Founder, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    Depraved wrote: »
    i like stealth ;3

    I know stealth is a very popular mechanic to use, but do you enjoy facing stealthed characters?
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  • Depraved wrote: »
    i like stealth ;3

    I know stealth is a very popular mechanic to use, but do you enjoy facing stealthed characters?

    i dont really mindit. there are ways around it. i also dont like if there is an indicator that there is someone stealthed near you or if they are too easy to detect. it ruins the mechanic.

    probably the thing i dislike is when there is a character that can perma kite and hit from 496785675 meters away and i cant reach them lol
  • I don't like hard CC with no counter or diminishing return. AoE stuns and long AoE mez in DAoC turned frontier RvR into matches of which side would land the CC on the other first.

    I like when there are options to give your class limited use of something that's not in its skill kit by default. Engineering in WoW had lots of those weird items that would do that. Mind control helmet, explosives, jump cables (could resurrect), etc.
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  • Love high mobility mirror 1v1 matches.

    Hate very long fear effects (victim running away in the directly opposite direction from the attacker w/o being able to do anything).
  • Wandering MistWandering Mist Moderator, Member, Founder, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    Percimes wrote: »
    I don't like hard CC with no counter or diminishing return. AoE stuns and long AoE mez in DAoC turned frontier RvR into matches of which side would land the CC on the other first.

    I like when there are options to give your class limited use of something that's not in its skill kit by default. Engineering in WoW had lots of those weird items that would do that. Mind control helmet, explosives, jump cables (could resurrect), etc.

    Definitely agreed on the hard CC - nothing worse than being CC-locked to death with zero counterplay.
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  • Wandering MistWandering Mist Moderator, Member, Founder, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    NiKr wrote: »
    Love high mobility mirror 1v1 matches.

    Hate very long fear effects (victim running away in the directly opposite direction from the attacker w/o being able to do anything).

    Would you extend that to all hard CC, or just fear mechanics specifically?
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  • Fav

    Mobility for sure with classes and good defensive actions so it has a element of skill involved. Ability to react is important to have good skill ceilings with the right balance of speed / cooldowns.


    What I dislike is when people can stay in iframe or link lingering forms of protection and that becomes the gameplay loop. Which is important to have the right balance of CC and not too much where you feel the need to add other mechanicals to balance it out like linger protection that does not allow you to be cc.
  • Would you extend that to all hard CC, or just fear mechanics specifically?
    Only "you'll run reaaaaal fucking far w/o any control" mechanics. Totally fine with full stuns and/or some pushing/pulling. Even just a short fear effect would be fine, but I've experienced some that are several seconds long, and when your speed is really high - you're moving to another damn country while you're feared.

    I guess combining fear with a slow effect would resolve my issue, but then it's a question of balancing a double-effect ability vs other, potentially, single-effect ones.
  • I like playing against skill shots because they're not guaranteed hits every time like tab target abilities and can be countered through properly timed blocks dodges or movement skills.

    I don't like playing against cancerous amounts of CC that have no counterplay. I remember back in AA there was this mage build that everyone used which would CC lock you for over 30 seconds paired with high burst damage channels in between. To my knowledge, the only way to get a CC break was from a special item that was bought from the store. Luckily Ashes will have both diminishing returns and CC breaks built into the classes.
  • NiKr wrote: »
    Would you extend that to all hard CC, or just fear mechanics specifically?
    Only "you'll run reaaaaal fucking far w/o any control" mechanics. Totally fine with full stuns and/or some pushing/pulling. Even just a short fear effect would be fine, but I've experienced some that are several seconds long, and when your speed is really high - you're moving to another damn country while you're feared.

    I guess combining fear with a slow effect would resolve my issue, but then it's a question of balancing a double-effect ability vs other, potentially, single-effect ones.

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    L2's +30 cost Curse of Fear was definitely an unbalanced abomination

    With that in mind I'd like you to list the mechanics you love to play against, as well as mechanics you hate to play against.

    I love RNG Mechanics in PvP that makes players properly make extra plans and adapt on the fly to unpredictable possibilities and outcomes.

    I hate spam of extended iFrames and/or spam of ultra defensive mechanics with no counterplay.


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  • L2's +30 cost Curse of Fear was definitely an unbalanced abomination
    Yeah, I forgot how long that shit was. I tried to be on the lower estimate with my "several seconds", but jfc :D
  • Mag7spyMag7spy Member
    edited December 2023
    Wait you cant control your character for a whole minute? Or am i reading it wrong.
  • NiKrNiKr Member
    edited December 2023
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    Wait you cant control your character for a whole minute? Or am i reading it wrong.
    Yeah, some things were broken as fuck in that game :D This wasn't a 100% chance debuff, but it did land somewhat often, depending on the target's resistances.

    This is why I hated it :D

    That particular version of skill required a toooon of resources to get though, but even the base version wasn't much better imo.
  • I don't like that I can't control my character during stuns, fears, petrifications, etc. I consider even just channeling skills a bad mechanic if I can’t do anything else besides alt+tab. Burning mana, blocking spells, immobilizing and slowing isn't much fun either, but at least it's playable.

    I like jumps, rushes, blinks, warps, etc. It's fun to take advantage of your mobility against heavier targets or simply fly across the battlefield between them.
  • Mag7spy wrote: »
    Wait you cant control your character for a whole minute? Or am i reading it wrong.

    that wasnt the final duration. still long enough to lose a 1v1 but not long enough to matter in group play, unless u were the healer and got feared xD
  • persianpersian Member, Warrior of Old, Kickstarter
    If stealth is done well, it's usually not an issue and is often critical to that class's ability to play the game in a pvp environment imo.

    For me it's:

    - RNG elements. Any class that would trigger 1/6 options for instance, or have hugely varied damage just ruins it for me.

    - One-shot abilities with little to no counterplay.

    - Unfair Resource starvation. Running out of x resource with zero way to recover making you useless in a fight for an extended period of time when you otherwise couldn't have ended the fight earlier anyway.
  • LinikerLiniker Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    something I really don't like is low TTK (time-to-kill) in MMOs, both for PvE and PvP but especially PvP,

    Intrepid's intention of a 30~60s TTK for pvp is one of the highlights for me, even tho A1 and last stream the game still has a 5s TTK like most MMOs :D hopefully that changes
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  • TaerrikTaerrik Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    What I do like, is group cohesion paying off, where the sum of the parts matter, not just the collection of individual player skill. Things like separating, or debuffing the healer right before bursting down a different enemy dps. Things like faking out which enemy we are going to burst drawing protective resources away from the real target.

    What I dont like is gameplay focused solely on just chain stunning the enemy until it is dead. PvP designed around hard CC is just bad.

    My multiplayer pvp experience began in gw1 when the game launched, and I stayed there for years because of how great the team based pvp experience was. Hard stuns existed, (like 3s or 4s knockdowns), but they were very expensive, and spamming them exhausted the character, removing them from the fight for a minute. The team play relied on 1 or more characters setting up or pressuring specific things so the rest of the team could score a kill.

    GW1 pvp has never been topped in group play pvp in almost the 20 years since its been around (2005 I think???) I look back on those years the game was alive and wish any game would even try to approach that level of group play.
    Dont look at GW2, GW2 pvp is a dumpster fire that is on trash and smells bad.
  • I like to play as stealth mage or archer... In general classes that can embush the target first and apply CC's... Well something similar Daggerspell from Archeage
  • George_BlackGeorge_Black Member, Intrepid Pack
    edited December 2023
    Least fav mech: global cooldown on all skills. Makes combat in small scale or duels a repetition of defence/power-up rotation, followed by burst settup rotation.
    Which means that there aren't realy class/weapon playstyles in PvP, just the same rotation pattern with different flashy colours across all classes. There is no action and reaction, no strategy against different opponents, no situational skill usage.

    It also males largescale PvP a blind, no-need-to-pick-targets zergfest of AoE button mashing, whether heals, CCs or dmg, whilst following the leader.

    Favourite mechanics:
    Counter attacks. Encountered only in Tera Online.
    There was an ability on the Warrior class that when used while your opponent was about to land a hit with a direct attack, you could interrupt and stun them.
    You couldnt spam counter attack and wait to turn the tables on your enemy.
    If you used it against the wrong types of strikes it wouldnt work and you'd put the counter atk skill on cooldown (a big waste).

    Such designs make you pay attention and when executed correctly offer big payout, both in gameplay and in satisfaction.
  • CyridiusCyridius Member
    edited December 2023
    It's a lot easier to identify things you don't like vs. things that you do. So I'll start with things I don't like;

    1. Stealth. Whether it's been in Dark Age of Camelot, or WoW, or anything in between, it's been a shit mechanic for PvP. It has zero real counterplay. Someone sits around in stealth until they find someone they can gank and burst down easily - usually someone who's relatively undergeared compared to them. The amount of work involved in trying to proactively deal with stealthed enemies isn't fun, it's disproportionate, and it's unrewarding. This has been universal across every game with stealth in PvP. Stealth generally isn't an issue in group PvP environments because the risk of a stealthed character attacking someone is much higher unless they plan ahead properly with their own friends/allies, and in that case a successful attack by a stealthed character is something that requires skill and coordination, which is good. But most PvP in this game is going to be small scale, realistically, with large group PvP being relegated to particular situations. So it has been in games like ArcheAge. I'd rather characters be designed to have a toolkit that's pretty generally useful and contributes to fighting actively in a team setting (as opposed to something vague like "scouting" as your contribution to the team), than a toolkit which in reality is orientated around solo ganking - which is what stealth classes ultimately end up being reduced to.

    2. Crowd control. CC is good because it stops another thing I dislike, which is endless kiting. But getting chain-CC'd means that there's no counterplay and the encounter is solved before you press any buttons - it's easily resolved by having cleanse effects also give you a buff that stops you from being CC'd by another player again for a few seconds, at least giving you time to CC them back or run away.

    I hate those two dynamics roughly equally.

    Things I like;

    1. Gap closers and gap makers. Being able to leap/teleport/whatever to an enemy for a melee class, and away as a ranged class, is good. It creates a sense of dynamism to the combat that feels engaging, and it's satisfying for players to have useful mobility options that have to be used carefully and with awareness of your surroundings.
  • Could say that CC, kiting and stealth are by their nature anti-PVP in that they seek to take away from the actions of the other player. Perhaps if the design increases the difficulty of pulling these actions off or offered real risks in failure, then it would be better.

    For CC, since that’s a broad category where many different things cause the CC, the risk would need to match it. Most games have just relied on cooldowns and giving the opponent options for CC cleansing.

    For stealth, design needs to provide uncertainty for the stealthy character to know the other players can’t see them. Meaning they are either walking into a target completely unnoticed or just crouching in plain sight, making them an easy target. Also think stealth in the open without any cause for stealth is just silly. Perhaps if everyone is in first person view and you were attempting to reduce the noise of an approach to get a jump on the character, then that would be OK, but this is a third person POV game.

    Most obvious solution for kiting is the risk of tripping, slipping and falling. And when falling there should be a good likelihood you drop your weapon or worst case, damage it depending on the type. Nothing worse than tripping and having your quiver empty out on the ground.
  • Specific mechanics doesn't so matter, PvP should be just 50\50 skill\gear balanced.

    But what I realy hate from global point of view:
    - All types of Equalized PvP (equalizing of characters stats/gear), including equalized arenas
    - Battle pets (class skill-based summons is fine)
    - Ability to use 20 different consumable buffs like food or alchemy to strengthen in PvP (consumables except of HP/MP potions should be only PvE-oriented)
    - And the worst one: ability to disable PvP on character-level (click button = you are not available to be attacked) and peace zones without possibility to PvP
  • I really enjoy fighting stealthers in games where there's some counter play to it. nothing as fun as killing a pos 1 riki with a well placed sentry ward.
  • KingDDD wrote: »
    I really enjoy fighting stealthers in games where there's some counter play to it. nothing as fun as killing a pos 1 riki with a well placed sentry ward.

    damn someone has dota ptsd 💀
  • KingDDD wrote: »
    I really enjoy fighting stealthers in games where there's some counter play to it. nothing as fun as killing a pos 1 riki with a well placed sentry ward.

    That works really well in games like Dota 2 because the arena is small and defined, in MMOs it's just a shiftfest. I think if invisible enemies was something people had to deal with regularly in PvE it might not be so bad because preparing for invisibility would then become part of the routine, so ganking wouldn't be so easy to do - but that in of itself can be horrific PvE gameplay. Really would rather stealth be designed for PvE and then have players have some sort of truesight where they can see invisible enemies within X meters of their position, and just make stealth classes useful outside of being stealthy for PvP.
  • Unenjoyable mechanics:
    1. cc chains, no counterplay, no interaction, anticlimactic
    2. insane burst damage, limited to no counterplay, circumvents any mechanic that takes time, anticlimactic
    Enjoyable:
    1. lots of health points, lots of counterplay, possibly the most room for interactions, satisfying, more time for interaction, rich in fantasy
    2. buffs, room for counterplay, predictable interaction, rewarding of interaction, synergy, combo potential, rewards teamwork
    Not inherently problematic:
    1. Stealth, can generally lead to a favorable initiation, if paired with problematic mechanics then it may be annoying, thematic, can be climactic
    2. Healing, can create room for interaction, if done wrong will turn the game into a cc burst fest, counter mechanics like stacking buffs, debuffs, mana burn, and anti-healing make healing more interactive, healing should remain somewhat restricted
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