Item decay is terrible if you don't play a lot. I actually hope they don't bring it because, in the limited time I have for videogames, I want to focus on pve and maybe pvp. Besides, there are other ways to help the economy, for example: best items (excluding epic loot) being the crafted ones + enchanting with 50% chance of losing the item.
[quote quote=6832] Item decay is terrible if you don’t play a lot. I actually hope they don’t bring it because, in the limited time I have for videogames, I want to focus on pve and maybe pvp. Besides, there are other ways to help the economy, for example: best items (excluding epic loot) being the crafted ones + enchanting with 50% chance of losing the item.
[/quote]
There is no way to help out the Economy without having Item Decay because crafters will be few and far between because having a half ass crafting system will me people who love to crafted just will not spend more than a little bit of time on it. They Developers want to make crafting important they need to force item decay. And no it will not suck for people who have less time because if you dont focus on the WOW Raid to get your loot model then you are just pushed into buy your gear from crafters. If done right no one will have trouble getting gear. It was done back in SWG without a problem, it can be done again.
O and no there shouldnt be Epic Loot. It should just be the same gear that crafters can make. The Master crafters should be making the high end loot and it should take some high end mats to get that gear. However it should be prevalent enough that everyone can get the gear with effort. Just be wise with your gold and help out a crafter that can make you what you want when you are on. You will likely get your gear cheaper than others.
[quote quote=6847]O and no there shouldnt be Epic Loot. It should just be the same gear that crafters can make. The Master crafters should be making the high end loot and it should take some high end mats to get that gear. However it should be prevalent enough that everyone can get the gear with effort. Just be wise with your gold and help out a crafter that can make you what you want when you are on. You will likely get your gear cheaper than others.[/quote] If you are suggesting something similar to Shroud of the Avatar's system... it is as casual-friendly at it can be, but it's simply not interesting / rewarding enough for me. I would rather play something like Lineage 2 and reach good gear in 2 years while having fun with a constant-party in dungeons, than play SotA in which I can reach the same gear as everyone else in 1 month. Since I mentioned Lineage 2 - it didn't have item decay, yet the crafter and spoiler dwarves were quite important for the server economy.
[quote quote=6852]<blockquote> <div class="d4p-bbt-quote-title"><a href="https://www.ashesofcreation.com/forums/topic/item-decay-2/page/2/#post-6847" rel="nofollow">Helzbelz wrote:</a></div> O and no there shouldnt be Epic Loot. It should just be the same gear that crafters can make. The Master crafters should be making the high end loot and it should take some high end mats to get that gear. However it should be prevalent enough that everyone can get the gear with effort. Just be wise with your gold and help out a crafter that can make you what you want when you are on. You will likely get your gear cheaper than others. </blockquote> If you are suggesting something similar to Shroud of the Avatar’s system… it is as casual-friendly at it can be, but it’s simply not interesting / rewarding enough for me. I would rather play something like Lineage 2 and reach good gear in 2 years while having fun with a constant-party in dungeons, than play SotA in which I can reach the same gear as everyone else in 1 month. Since I mentioned Lineage 2 – it didn’t have item decay, yet the crafter and spoiler dwarves were quite important for the server economy.
[/quote]
SOTA does not have a good gear system. Its also not really a full production game so its bad to use that game as an understanding. I am thinking a game like SWG where your gear will always change and you will be fine. We are also talking about not having Dungeons that end up being a Treadmill because the minute you do that is the minute you will get people that will bitch for nothing more than a Automated Crossed Realm Dungeon finder. Then the content will become too hard and then shit will get nerfed and then you will get everything in 1 month. The System I am talking about is not basing the importance of the game down to a gear treadmill which you are creating with a Dungeon style game where gear drops that is better than anything else.
I was talking about the general concept of item system of SotA (ignoring COTOs), not the game itself. I don't want to unlock high tier gear just to run in inexpensive mid tier one most of the time for economical reasons. If it's pretty hard to unlock this gear, it's even more frustrating. Anyway, I never said that dungeons should hand the best gear - what I said earlier is that the best gear should be the crafted one, with epic items exceptions (the ones that drop only from big bosses*). Fine, you don't want epic drops - maybe those bosses can drop crafting recipes or something; I mean, there should be a cool reward for doing them. The pve drop should be limited to just money, misc and consumables. There can be a scavenger class that has the ability to loot crafting materials from mobs. The crafters will create gear using those. If you want to get your crafting materials without fighting, I guess that they could also allow us to own farms, as in Archage. Considering that MMOs are not exactly en-vogue these days, it would be in their interest to make the game friendly to all kinds of players. We could have areas with mobs suitable for solo / duo, areas suitable for parties, areas with lower rewards in which pvp is not allowed, open dungeons with stronger mobs and slightly better rewards and instanced pve dungeons with lower rewards than the open ones. I would rather have to run to the entrance of a dungeon and group with clanmates / people on the forum than not have dungeons at all.
*by big bosses I mean the kind that you need the whole guild to take them down
[quote quote=6904]I was talking about the general concept of item system of SotA (ignoring COTOs), not the game itself. I don’t want to unlock high tier gear just to run in inexpensive mid tier one most of the time for economical reasons. If it’s pretty hard to unlock this gear, it’s even more frustrating. Anyway, I never said that dungeons should hand the best gear – what I said earlier is that the best gear should be the crafted one, with epic items exceptions (the ones that drop only from big bosses*). Fine, you don’t want epic drops – maybe those bosses can drop crafting recipes or something; I mean, there should be a cool reward for doing them. The pve drop should be limited to just money, misc and consumables. There can be a scavenger class that has the ability to loot crafting materials from mobs. The crafters will create gear using those. If you want to get your crafting materials without fighting, I guess that they could also allow us to own farms, as in Archage. Considering that MMOs are not exactly en-vogue these days, it would be in their interest to make the game friendly to all kinds of players. We could have areas with mobs suitable for solo / duo, areas suitable for parties, areas with lower rewards in which pvp is not allowed, open dungeons with stronger mobs and slightly better rewards and instanced pve dungeons with lower rewards than the open ones. I would rather have to run to the entrance of a dungeon and group with clanmates / people on the forum than not have dungeons at all.
*by big bosses I mean the kind that you need the whole guild to take them down
[/quote]
What I am thinking is more along the lines of a level 10 to 15 dungeon drops Tier 1 gear. This would be any gear within a range of Elemental resistances, Damages, types of Elemental damages, different types of armor and weapons. The dungeons should also drop a lot of gold, one time spell scrolls, Glamour gear, treasure maps, crafting mats and all kinds of other items that can be found throughout the game. Each item in the game has a different tier and crafters/gathers can make everything or gather everything in some way shape or form. There should be no rare gear. Yea not all crafters should be able to make all the gear out there, but there will be a crafter that can make what you want. Part of that is limiting the amount of recipes can learn. The point is make gear useful in difference situations and not streamline gear. Yes I know it will piss people off that they need to carry or have different sets of gear, for example gear for PVP because maybe fire is heavily used in PVP but in Dungeons maybe Arcane and nature resistances are needed more outside of fighting dragons.
The point is to make more than a streamlined game with streamlined gear. I want people to have to think about what they are doing and no just play whack a mole.
I crafted and supplied Recall and Rez scrolls on 4 shards on UO for 10 years, then I left and let all my grandfathered properties fall. I sure miss UO but can't pay $15 a month for it if its in the state it was in when I left.
[quote quote=5854]Let’s talk about Item Decay here. The reason I am bringing this up is because I love crafting.[/quote]
Item Decay is not the only way to stimulate crafting.
lets say you have unbreakable gear, it needs repairing on death, general use, etc. but it can't break.
Now lets implement a power system for the gear, gear can be Tier 1-10. If you want to upgrade to a Tier 2, you need Gem from Boss A, 20 ore and 5 Logs. and 2(or 3 or 4... or x) of Tier 1, (explain this with lore or something, the crafting upgrading your gear needs to practice a few times, so bring him the practise pieces) Upgrading from T2 to T3 requires 2-3 T2 pieces + world items, T3-> T4 requires 4-5 T3 pieces + rarer world items, etc. by the time you get to T10, you might have bought 1000 T1 pieces or 5 T9 pieces, and need gem from World boss that only spawns when node is metropolis etc. remove the cap of how high items can go, let people grind it out if that's what they want to do, Result: endless need for crafters to keep creating the low /mid/high level gear. You can craft till your hearts content, there will ALWAYS be people buying/giving you mats to craft their higher level gear.
[quote quote=9094]<blockquote> <div class="d4p-bbt-quote-title"><a href="https://www.ashesofcreation.com/forums/topic/item-decay-2/#post-5854" rel="nofollow">Helzbelz wrote:</a></div> Let’s talk about Item Decay here. The reason I am bringing this up is because I love crafting. </blockquote> Item Decay is not the only way to stimulate crafting.
lets say you have unbreakable gear, it needs repairing on death, general use, etc. but it can’t break.
Now lets implement a power system for the gear, gear can be Tier 1-10. If you want to upgrade to a Tier 2, you need Gem from Boss A, 20 ore and 5 Logs. and 2(or 3 or 4… or x) of Tier 1, (explain this with lore or something, the crafting upgrading your gear needs to practice a few times, so bring him the practise pieces) Upgrading from T2 to T3 requires 2-3 T2 pieces + world items, T3-> T4 requires 4-5 T3 pieces + rarer world items, etc. by the time you get to T10, you might have bought 1000 T1 pieces or 5 T9 pieces, and need gem from World boss that only spawns when node is metropolis etc. remove the cap of how high items can go, let people grind it out if that’s what they want to do, Result: endless need for crafters to keep creating the low /mid/high level gear. You can craft till your hearts content, there will ALWAYS be people buying/giving you mats to craft their higher level gear.
[/quote]
Thank you end up with a god dam treadmill that no one wants. Again you people keep thinking this game should have Treadmills instead of being free flowing and allowing people to do they want when they want. The Tier system should ONLY be used for Tier 1 items from bosses are level 1 to 10 items and X crafter can craft these same items that drop of these dungeon bosses.
No the gear needs to be free flowing, the gear needs to break if you do not have that you just copy and pasted WOW's gear system with just a treadmill to upgrade the gear. Crafters are 100% tired of this bullshit system. Go back to SWG crafting and Item Decay and there will be 0 problem because you as a player will just need to find the gear you want from the crafters themselves or their vendors they have out in the world. Stop making this game like WOW.
[quote quote=9106]<blockquote> <div class="d4p-bbt-quote-title"><a href="https://www.ashesofcreation.com/forums/topic/item-decay-2/page/3/#post-9094" rel="nofollow">Nikerym wrote:</a></div> <blockquote> <div class="d4p-bbt-quote-title"><a href="https://www.ashesofcreation.com/forums/topic/item-decay-2/#post-5854" rel="nofollow">Helzbelz wrote:</a></div> Let’s talk about Item Decay here. The reason I am bringing this up is because I love crafting.
</blockquote> Item Decay is not the only way to stimulate crafting.
lets say you have unbreakable gear, it needs repairing on death, general use, etc. but it can’t break.
Now lets implement a power system for the gear, gear can be Tier 1-10. If you want to upgrade to a Tier 2, you need Gem from Boss A, 20 ore and 5 Logs. and 2(or 3 or 4… or x) of Tier 1, (explain this with lore or something, the crafting upgrading your gear needs to practice a few times, so bring him the practise pieces) Upgrading from T2 to T3 requires 2-3 T2 pieces + world items, T3-> T4 requires 4-5 T3 pieces + rarer world items, etc. by the time you get to T10, you might have bought 1000 T1 pieces or 5 T9 pieces, and need gem from World boss that only spawns when node is metropolis etc. remove the cap of how high items can go, let people grind it out if that’s what they want to do, Result: endless need for crafters to keep creating the low /mid/high level gear. You can craft till your hearts content, there will ALWAYS be people buying/giving you mats to craft their higher level gear.
</blockquote> Thank you end up with a god dam treadmill that no one wants. Again you people keep thinking this game should have Treadmills instead of being free flowing and allowing people to do they want when they want. The Tier system should ONLY be used for Tier 1 items from bosses are level 1 to 10 items and X crafter can craft these same items that drop of these dungeon bosses.
No the gear needs to be free flowing, the gear needs to break if you do not have that you just copy and pasted WOW’s gear system with just a treadmill to upgrade the gear. Crafters are 100% tired of this bullshit system. Go back to SWG crafting and Item Decay and there will be 0 problem because you as a player will just need to find the gear you want from the crafters themselves or their vendors they have out in the world. Stop making this game like WOW.
[/quote]
Its a treadmill with Item decay. Except instead of it being progression you are literally running in the same place. Great my Tx item broke, now have to replace it, I don't gain ANYTHING by having to replace it. Literally the definition of a treadmill. sure, with a progression based system your still running, but your going somewhere, there's and end goal... none of this "well my gear just broke, time to go buy.... the exact same thing..." like wtf? give me some form of progression over static any day. The item system in SWG was literally the entire reason I didn't play that game for more then a few weeks. The last thing I want to do is play a game where I spend 10 hours farming for my gear, then spend the next 10 hours farming for it again because it will break, then once every 20 hours, I have to spend 10 hours farming for it AGAIN, sure, I could buy from a crafter (I'd be a crafter, because I love it) but I still need to grind the gold to pay for it somehow and while doing that I barely making any progression in the meantime. How is that free flowing? how is that letting me do what I want? I am spending 50% of my time just making sure I have my existing gear level available. You mention treadmills, that sounds like the definition of it to me. MMO's and RPG's in general are grindy by nature, adding grind to getting gear and power progression (Gear after max level) is exactly what the genre's call for. people might mention WOW as a non grindy game, but I disagree, spending 4 hours a night 3 nights a week progressing on bosses is grind. but you get progression, that is what makes the game fun, regardless of the grind. feeling like you are being rewarded for your efforts.
You are looking at this entirely from a crafting/economy perspective which I agree is important, however. you are ignoring the player experience from a gear point of view. I agree with you 100% that crafters need to stay relevant, (hell, i'll be one of the people competing with you on the market!) I just disagree that item decay is the way to do it, so I pitched something that achieves both goals. The demand for crafted items remains if people want to spend gold on it, (or grind it out killing dungeon bosses in which case you get nothing anyway as a crafter if they do this with item decay)
[quote quote=9129]<blockquote> <div class="d4p-bbt-quote-title"><a href="https://www.ashesofcreation.com/forums/topic/item-decay-2/page/3/#post-9106" rel="nofollow">Helzbelz wrote:</a></div> <blockquote> <div class="d4p-bbt-quote-title"><a href="https://www.ashesofcreation.com/forums/topic/item-decay-2/page/3/#post-9094" rel="nofollow">Nikerym wrote:</a></div> <blockquote> <div class="d4p-bbt-quote-title"><a href="https://www.ashesofcreation.com/forums/topic/item-decay-2/#post-5854" rel="nofollow">Helzbelz wrote:</a></div> Let’s talk about Item Decay here. The reason I am bringing this up is because I love crafting.
</blockquote> Item Decay is not the only way to stimulate crafting.
lets say you have unbreakable gear, it needs repairing on death, general use, etc. but it can’t break.
Now lets implement a power system for the gear, gear can be Tier 1-10. If you want to upgrade to a Tier 2, you need Gem from Boss A, 20 ore and 5 Logs. and 2(or 3 or 4… or x) of Tier 1, (explain this with lore or something, the crafting upgrading your gear needs to practice a few times, so bring him the practise pieces) Upgrading from T2 to T3 requires 2-3 T2 pieces + world items, T3-> T4 requires 4-5 T3 pieces + rarer world items, etc. by the time you get to T10, you might have bought 1000 T1 pieces or 5 T9 pieces, and need gem from World boss that only spawns when node is metropolis etc. remove the cap of how high items can go, let people grind it out if that’s what they want to do, Result: endless need for crafters to keep creating the low /mid/high level gear. You can craft till your hearts content, there will ALWAYS be people buying/giving you mats to craft their higher level gear.
</blockquote> Thank you end up with a god dam treadmill that no one wants. Again you people keep thinking this game should have Treadmills instead of being free flowing and allowing people to do they want when they want. The Tier system should ONLY be used for Tier 1 items from bosses are level 1 to 10 items and X crafter can craft these same items that drop of these dungeon bosses.
No the gear needs to be free flowing, the gear needs to break if you do not have that you just copy and pasted WOW’s gear system with just a treadmill to upgrade the gear. Crafters are 100% tired of this bullshit system. Go back to SWG crafting and Item Decay and there will be 0 problem because you as a player will just need to find the gear you want from the crafters themselves or their vendors they have out in the world. Stop making this game like WOW.
</blockquote> Its a treadmill with Item decay. Except instead of it being progression you are literally running in the same place. Great my Tx item broke, now have to replace it, I don’t gain ANYTHING by having to replace it. Literally the definition of a treadmill. sure, with a progression based system your still running, but your going somewhere, there’s and end goal… none of this “well my gear just broke, time to go buy…. the exact same thing…” like wtf? give me some form of progression over static any day. The item system in SWG was literally the entire reason I didn’t play that game for more then a few weeks. The last thing I want to do is play a game where I spend 10 hours farming for my gear, then spend the next 10 hours farming for it again because it will break, then once every 20 hours, I have to spend 10 hours farming for it AGAIN, sure, I could buy from a crafter (I’d be a crafter, because I love it) but I still need to grind the gold to pay for it somehow and while doing that I barely making any progression in the meantime. How is that free flowing? how is that letting me do what I want? I am spending 50% of my time just making sure I have my existing gear level available. You mention treadmills, that sounds like the definition of it to me. MMO’s and RPG’s in general are grindy by nature, adding grind to getting gear and power progression (Gear after max level) is exactly what the genre’s call for. people might mention WOW as a non grindy game, but I disagree, spending 4 hours a night 3 nights a week progressing on bosses is grind. but you get progression, that is what makes the game fun, regardless of the grind. feeling like you are being rewarded for your efforts.
You are looking at this entirely from a crafting/economy perspective which I agree is important, however. you are ignoring the player experience from a gear point of view. I agree with you 100% that crafters need to stay relevant, (hell, i’ll be one of the people competing with you on the market!) I just disagree that item decay is the way to do it, so I pitched something that achieves both goals. The demand for crafted items remains if people want to spend gold on it, (or grind it out killing dungeon bosses in which case you get nothing anyway as a crafter if they do this with item decay)
[/quote]
I dont understand how you can say SWG was a treadmill? Really? If you played SWG you would know that 99% of the player base would never buy 1 set of gear from a vendor. They would buy 2 or 3 sets of Armor and a handful of weapons. They would put that in a chest in their house and bam had the gear when ever they wanted it. There was no treadmill at all. If you have killed mobs that dropped crafted material you either sold it on the Bazar, Sold it on your vendor in your house or sold/gave the items to crafters who in turn helped you out with gear. There was 0 Treadmill involved unless you expected to always have the same gear on and never had a stock of gear. Everyone in my guild and in the 18 guilds I was allied with always had access to gear. If they didnt have a stock they came back to the player run city and bought more.
The problem is You have a preference and a mind set that, You got your gear now that is the end of that. That is what you like and what I like is the SWG system because it had proven to be the best MMORPG Gear system around because crafters were always useful even some of the mid tier crafters. Any other system kills the mid tier crafters in favor of crafters who had 50 hours a week on their hands to endlessly craft high end stuff
Anyone that has played SWG knows that there was 0 TreadMill. Even as a new player you would be doing Missions for Credits. Credit which you needed for gear, a house, and so on. Most new players learned that they can also farm energy use wind mills and stuff like that. Then sell that energy. Also the mid tier gear that most players wouldnt get until they got a ton of credits ended up dropping in price so new players bought really good gear at lower levels. They still didnt buy my 8K damage Rocket Launchers but they could afford my 1K to 3K rocket launchers and go after the AT-ST NPCs.
SWG had a great system period. Some people might not like it. But we cannot make everyone happy, and the only way Crafters will have any chance of being relevant past a few months is if items decay and break requiring you to replace them. This should include siege equipment and ships when we have them. If done right Crafters will be kept busy all the time and this game will flourish because the gear model will be fairly flat. That is the only way to keep crafters busy. Every other system only makes crafters busy for short periods of time until people have their gear then there is no need for crafters until new higher item level gear comes out. If gear is flat and there is a good crafter base a SWG crafting system works because people are always buying new gear and they can pick up gathering professions to sell materials. It becomes a circle
I remember in DAoC, a game that had item decay, that it took a long time to be completely broken, but each repair took like a point of durability away and that took months.
Helbelz, It has been said that items will decay down to 0 durability, meaning it cant be used... However, the gear itself will never be destroyed. Especially if you spent ages and came across this cool looking piece of really good gear and then it breaks and is gone forever. Meaning you have to gear back up and do it all again. This is fine, but if you lose your gear and then have to do a siege war or something, then you are screwed.
Repair will be a big part in the game to fix items which have been reduced in durability, but completely destroying the item isn't something a lot of the people want and it would really make them annoyed about it.
Say you're a cleric or something, and then suddenly your weapon breaks after reaching 0 durability, but it is the best healing staff in the game. What then? People would go mad.
Durability will be a thing and it won't be insane and be able to repair like in WoW where you just click a button... at all levels, you'll have to go to someone who can repair it for you... so armour and weapons like axes... a blacksmith will be able to repair. And a tailor could repair cloth armour ect... This is what will be implemented and not the loss of weapons fully. Because if you lost your weapon, as I've stated, it would be disastrous.
[quote quote=9189]Helbelz, It has been said that items will decay down to 0 durability, meaning it cant be used… However, the gear itself will never be destroyed. Especially if you spent ages and came across this cool looking piece of really good gear and then it breaks and is gone forever. Meaning you have to gear back up and do it all again. This is fine, but if you lose your gear and then have to do a siege war or something, then you are screwed.
Repair will be a big part in the game to fix items which have been reduced in durability, but completely destroying the item isn’t something a lot of the people want and it would really make them annoyed about it.
Say you’re a cleric or something, and then suddenly your weapon breaks after reaching 0 durability, but it is the best healing staff in the game. What then? People would go mad.
Durability will be a thing and it won’t be insane and be able to repair like in WoW where you just click a button… at all levels, you’ll have to go to someone who can repair it for you… so armour and weapons like axes… a blacksmith will be able to repair. And a tailor could repair cloth armour ect… This is what will be implemented and not the loss of weapons fully. Because if you lost your weapon, as I’ve stated, it would be disastrous.
[/quote]
Gear should not be that hard to come by. It should be as easy as you know a bunch of vendors that have the gear you mostly use. Go buy it from the vendor. If there is a look you want, great you have that piece of Glamour gear that you can Glamour your item to make it look the same way as you did before.
Great there is a Repair system in game. How many crafters that been looking for a deep crafting system since Star Wars Galaxies that will want to spend a lot of time crafting just so they are useful a few months out of an expansion other than for repairs? O wait FFXIV 1.0 did that where you had to get repairs from crafters, after about 6 months you couldnt find a dam crafter to safe your life because no crafters were spending hours leveling crafting to be useful for repairs only. Sorry it has been tried and FAILED EPICLY. Again Item Decay is the only thing that will Truly keep crafters busy all the time. Hell Look at BDO where you have to upgrade your gear, crafters are hard to find in that game as well because crafters want to make shit and sell shit. Not Upgrade and Repair gear only.
If Ashes wants to be a Crafting heavy game as they say they do they need large amounts of crafters because you cannot do it all. BUT if we are just going to copy and paste WOW dungeons and Copy and Paste how Gear works in every other game today. Crafters will not spend time outside of the initial need for everyone. Once that need is gone they will quit playing or do something else. Supply and Demand is critical for crafters and YES there will be some crafters that's all they will want to do is make mid tier gear all the time. Some will want to make high end gear. Others will want to make ships. But if everyone has the gear they need after 6 months what is the point of crafting? Upgrades and Repairs are mindless jobs that people will not want to do.
[quote quote=9329]and Copy and Paste how Gear works in every other game today[/quote]
You have spent the whole thread literally asking them to copy SWG And shooting down anyone who disagrees with you.
Just because that was an experience you enjoyed doesn't mean it's the ONLY way to do it going forward. that kind of close minded thinking prevents new and exciting innovation and ideas that may work even better from being Discussed/Implemented.
It all depends on what kind of game you're making. But overall i think Item Decay is bad for a game. It breaks the flow/ immersion of gaming and gives you unnecessary busy work. You want players to enjoy the world and keep them in the flow and not have them constantly think about there weapons. Item decay brings another problem. You probably need a large inventory to carry a HUGE amount of weapon. Normal mob's need to drop a lot of weapons. Look at Zelda, most ppl hate the item decay. I for one would be Hugely disappointed if a weapon brakes. And probable would stop playing the game in the long run because i could not be bothered with the unnecessary busy work. it's just against my very inner emotions. That idea that you take the favorite toy away for a baby. Let the baby cray, give a new one, just to let him get used to it and brake it again. It's just against most ppl's emotion.
I think crafting should be pretty hard and special. Work/reward should be high. If i put 10/100/1000 hours in crafting, i want to create a weapon that is on par with the amount of time spend creating it. It's all about time spent / reward. Maybe create some legendary weapons/armor, where you only can get the plans, ingredients trough the hardest dungeons and monsters/bosses. Or something where you have to do some special quest line to get the recipe. The games should be balanced. So if it takes about 100 hours (if your are already max level) to get a really good weapon trough raiding. Then ofc, if you would spend 100 hours of crafting you should have the opportunity to create a equal quality weapon.
Thats my 2 cents. But Please, No weapon decay.
A cool idea would be Guild crafting. That people could post a item that they want to craft in the guild. And you can get points for crafting them for other guild members. If you reach a certain threshold of point, you will become, something like a expert guild craftsman, and a master or grand-master guilds craftsman. With each guild level you go up, get new Special guild equipment you can craft (with the guild colors or something that other people can see that it's form your guild.). Systems lie this will keep people talking and work towards a common goal.
Item decay is a niche game mechanic because it's against most human emotions. You spend time and effort getting / making something only so it can brake later on. For me, it brakes the immersion of the game. Most ppl playing Zelda have one big complain, and that is about the Item decay. It's just useless busy working that will amount to zero behind the line. It will literately amount to nothing @ the end. I played a lot of games, MMO's, RPG's and some other stuff. And one of the most important feelings is the one of progression and being immersed in the game. If something brakes, that is not progression and no fun at all. And these mechanics are for sure not the mechanics that will make a game great. Thing about it this way. How many people will see "Item decay" as something Fun, and won't play the game if it's not there.. How many people will see it Neutral.. and how many will hate it, and won't play the game if it's there.. I think, more people won't play the game when the game has "Item Decay", then people that won't play the game when it has no "Item Decay".. You could do more harm then good with it. Fun in a game should come from different things. Story, character progression, team work, guild, dungeons, Cool new game mechanics that will WOUW players. Not stuff like, Item Decay. This will probably do more damage then good.
[quote quote=9447]<blockquote> <div class="d4p-bbt-quote-title"><a href="https://www.ashesofcreation.com/forums/topic/item-decay-2/page/3/#post-9329" rel="nofollow">Helzbelz wrote:</a></div> and Copy and Paste how Gear works in every other game today </blockquote> You have spent the whole thread literally asking them to copy SWG And shooting down anyone who disagrees with you.
Just because that was an experience you enjoyed doesn’t mean it’s the ONLY way to do it going forward. that kind of close minded thinking prevents new and exciting innovation and ideas that may work even better from being Discussed/Implemented.
[/quote]
Thats because you will have such a small base of crafters in this game after 6 months because crafters will see that they are basically useless in this game after that amount of time because you are copying and pasting what crafters have hated since 2004. Why do crafters love SWG? Because it was the best crafting system ever.
[quote quote=9490]Item decay is a niche game mechanic because it’s against most human emotions. You spend time and effort getting / making something only so it can brake later on. For me, it brakes the immersion of the game. Most ppl playing Zelda have one big complain, and that is about the Item decay. It’s just useless busy working that will amount to zero behind the line. It will literately amount to nothing @ the end. I played a lot of games, MMO’s, RPG’s and some other stuff. And one of the most important feelings is the one of progression and being immersed in the game. If something brakes, that is not progression and no fun at all. And these mechanics are for sure not the mechanics that will make a game great. Thing about it this way. How many people will see “Item decay” as something Fun, and won’t play the game if it’s not there.. How many people will see it Neutral.. and how many will hate it, and won’t play the game if it’s there.. I think, more people won’t play the game when the game has “Item Decay”, then people that won’t play the game when it has no “Item Decay”.. You could do more harm then good with it. Fun in a game should come from different things. Story, character progression, team work, guild, dungeons, Cool new game mechanics that will WOUW players. Not stuff like, Item Decay. This will probably do more damage then good.
[/quote]
Zelda is not an MMORPG. Have you ever played SWG? Do you know it had Item decay and items breaking? Do you know people were JUST fine. No one spent HOURS getting gear. They went to a vendor and bought gear. Then they went back and played the game make more Credits doing what ever the hell they wanted to do. There gear broke and bought more. Sometimes they bought 2 or 3 sets. Zelda is a piss poor example of Item Decay. You are playing a Single Player Game. Item Decay in SWG was very very simple. Go to your Player run City with several guilds and which likely has a half dozen to several dozen vendors with gear on them. In Zelda you are grinding for gear. In a SWG like setup You get gear just by spending the credits you made by playing the game in any way you want to. You NEVER where grinding to make credits, the Grind was either to get a Jedi Pre-CU OR to level your crafting. You could level your combat classes just by doing what ever you want that was at your skill level.
Also people who think I am combating everything that disagrees with me. Yep that is True. Why? Well its just like people in other kickstarter games that want something outside of a copy and paste of WOW. Copying and Pasting WOW outside of UI or using Tab Target will just make this game like Rift, SWTOR, FFXIV, ESO and the rest of the MMORPGS that are low population games. Go to the Pantheon forums and you will see people BITCH about losing XP and having Corpse runs, thats what people want and the people that want this do not want the same MMORPG that have come out in the last 10+ years. Get over it, people like me will fight like hell to get the game we want not what WOW players want that never played MMORPGS before WOW and cannot see anything outside the WOW Formula.
<quote> Thats because you will have such a small base of crafters in this game after 6 months because crafters will see that they are basically useless in this game after that amount of time because you are copying and pasting what crafters have hated since 2004. Why do crafters love SWG? Because it was the best crafting system ever.
[/quote] ^ This... Well said... I never quit crafting in SWG, there was always something to craft. In EQ2, I quit crafting because everything you looted was better. With a system, like SWG, you combine 2 communities together that depend on each other. The only thing lacking, is mobs should never drop gear, but they should drop components that a crafter can use to make the gear/buffs/potions, etc.
People take those components to a crafter, if they don't craft themselves, and work out a deal to have it crafted in a trade/craft window like EQ2 does. You never actually give the components to the crafter, you drop them in the craft/trade window and that window stays open until the item is finished, then it appears in your inventory. You can pay the crafter or trade mats or whatever you decide. it's silly that you just killed a spider (GW2) and looted a great sword. What makes since to me is, you just killed a dragon or something with hide like armor and looted a scale or scales used to craft armor or shields. Harvest hides to craft leather/cloth, meat for food, potions, etc. Item decay gets people working with each other.
[quote quote=9494]Thats because you will have such a small base of crafters in this game after 6 months because crafters will see that they are basically useless in this game after that amount of time because you are copying and pasting what crafters have hated since 2004. Why do crafters love SWG? Because it was the best crafting system ever.[/quote]
As a crafter also; I want to see a new, BETTER THEN SWG, way of doing things. I'm 100% sure if you gave it some serious thought you could design a system that caters to crafters, keeps them relevant, and doesn't have item decay. You are just too closed minded to consider and actually give it some thought. I've already suggested one method that as a Crafter I would LOVE to see implemented, but instead of looking at the idea, evaluating it, you went "Not SWG, not interested", Stop being closed minded and actually discuss the problem and come up with a unique solution instead of trying to copy something.
[quote quote=9650]<blockquote> <div class="d4p-bbt-quote-title"><a href="https://www.ashesofcreation.com/forums/topic/item-decay-2/page/4/#post-9494" rel="nofollow">Helzbelz wrote:</a></div> Thats because you will have such a small base of crafters in this game after 6 months because crafters will see that they are basically useless in this game after that amount of time because you are copying and pasting what crafters have hated since 2004. Why do crafters love SWG? Because it was the best crafting system ever. </blockquote> As a crafter also; I want to see a new, BETTER THEN SWG, way of doing things. I’m 100% sure if you gave it some serious thought you could design a system that caters to crafters, keeps them relevant, and doesn’t have item decay. You are just too closed minded to consider and actually give it some thought. I’ve already suggested one method that as a Crafter I would LOVE to see implemented, but instead of looking at the idea, evaluating it, you went “Not SWG, not interested”, Stop being closed minded and actually discuss the problem and come up with a unique solution instead of trying to copy something.
[/quote]
I am not closed minded. The problem is there is NO WAY to keep crafting relevant without Item Decay. Every system has tried since WOW and every one has FAILED. Look at FFXIV 1.0 for example. You had to have a crafter repair your gear and it was not enough to keep crafters in the game because no one wants to sit and only repair gear. Gear upgrades have been tried in ArcheAge and people hate spending hours on a System that is RNG. RNG is way many crafters hate FFXIVs current system.
Add to that the power creep that ends up in the game when you do not flatten out gear. Add to that Crafters when you do not flatten out the gear you have a system where everyone gets to the highest gear level and no one needs the gear Crafting stops becoming valuable. When you have gear systems that rely on Treadmills which Do X until you reach this gear level, then Do Y until you reach this next gear level, you kill crafting. The ONLY way to fix that is to say screw having Epic gear, flatten out the gear system and have Item Decay.
The problem with most people that dont like it have 0 real experience with it outside of a single player game or a game like minecraft. So Its not close mind its knowing what systems are out there and knowing that I will not touch Ashes if it does not Aim to be what I want. Yes Gear Systems and Crafting, Automated Dungeon Finders and gear treadmills will break me playing Ashes Period. O Wait Why? Because that is EXACTLY what I am playing today. Why the fuck would I jump games that is exactly what I am playing today? Hint I will not because there is no point, I did the Jump from WOW to Rift, then back to WOW then WOW to SWTOR then back to WOW then WOW to FFXIV. You can add in ArcheAge, DDO, LOTRO, BDO, ESO, Neverwinter, Tera and a few other MMORPGs I have played over the last 10 years. ALL exactly the same. Just minor changes in their systems. What you want is a copy and paste of these other games. I dont I want something from before WOW because it is what I want, not Garbage systems.
Maybe you have outgrown MMO's as genre. MMO's are per definition treadmills. Otherwise the game can not hold players. Then it just becomes a RPG with little story and to much grinder. And oh yah, all those other ppl running around. The feeling of playing a MMO doesn't come from item decay. MMO's are much like the real world. Work hard and hopefully get somewhere. making friends and Time spend / Reward factor. How would you like it to work hard for a car, only for it to break. Have to get back to work only to pay for that car to break another time. It's a shitty system that won't fly in the real world, so it probably wont in the game world.
If the game implements Item decay for crafters. Then i guess i'm no crafter anymore. How boring it is to craft the same armor again and again until new content hits the game. Lets say you're in a guild, the guild best crafter. Then you have to probly craft a shit load of the same stuff every week or so, because it keeps breaking. There is no progression. I would rather work on getting to Super rare crafting materials to eventually craft a super rare or legendary weapon. then have to do busy work, making the same old, same old.
I think there is a valid point underneath it all. What do you do when you max crafting skill?
Most MMOs have crafting as a thing you will just max out, collect rare recipes and then have to wait until the next patch to move further with new items to make with new gathering materials.
Archeage tried to involve RNG into it to make it more involved but just made it frustrating imo.
I would like to see crafting as a mini-game that involves real player skill, which determines the stats of the item. Much more engaging this way. I would also like to see a research element where you create new items by experimenting with new combinations of materials, some of which only become available after nodes become level 5-6. This will drag out the usefulness of crafting to more than just repairing items.
If they link in researching new techniques with the processing skills it means that new types of materials naturally evolve over the course of the game, opening up new crafting options.
So ultimately, my opinion is to create bottlenecks to better crafting gear throughout the game. Gathering is limited by nodes reaching 5-6 for some raw materials, processing is limited by the time to research new techniques (producing new processed materials), and finally crafting is limited by the materials available and the time taken to research new ways to create items using the new materials. Because this starts with gathering and trickles through to crafting, the game would artificially release craftables to the players over time. This makes crafting much more involved and expands its lifespan as an engaging mechanic.
[quote quote=9788]Maybe you have outgrown MMO’s as genre. MMO’s are per definition treadmills. Otherwise the game can not hold players. Then it just becomes a RPG with little story and to much grinder. And oh yah, all those other ppl running around. The feeling of playing a MMO doesn’t come from item decay. MMO’s are much like the real world. Work hard and hopefully get somewhere. making friends and Time spend / Reward factor. How would you like it to work hard for a car, only for it to break. Have to get back to work only to pay for that car to break another time. It’s a shitty system that won’t fly in the real world, so it probably wont in the game world.
If the game implements Item decay for crafters. Then i guess i’m no crafter anymore. How boring it is to craft the same armor again and again until new content hits the game. Lets say you’re in a guild, the guild best crafter. Then you have to probly craft a shit load of the same stuff every week or so, because it keeps breaking. There is no progression. I would rather work on getting to Super rare crafting materials to eventually craft a super rare or legendary weapon. then have to do busy work, making the same old, same old.
[/quote]
No people like you that go to every forum and basically want a Copy of WOW is why MMORPGS are Treadmills. Guess what? The Kickstarter MMORPGs are changing that formula. Pantheon is a niche game and will not be a treadmill. LoA, CoE, and Ashes are also trying not to be a Treadmill. Either you like the game and the direction people who want something more than a WOW Clone or you go back to WOW. This game will fail within a few years if they Clone WOW.
Comments
[/quote]
There is no way to help out the Economy without having Item Decay because crafters will be few and far between because having a half ass crafting system will me people who love to crafted just will not spend more than a little bit of time on it. They Developers want to make crafting important they need to force item decay. And no it will not suck for people who have less time because if you dont focus on the WOW Raid to get your loot model then you are just pushed into buy your gear from crafters. If done right no one will have trouble getting gear. It was done back in SWG without a problem, it can be done again.
If you are suggesting something similar to Shroud of the Avatar's system... it is as casual-friendly at it can be, but it's simply not interesting / rewarding enough for me. I would rather play something like Lineage 2 and reach good gear in 2 years while having fun with a constant-party in dungeons, than play SotA in which I can reach the same gear as everyone else in 1 month. Since I mentioned Lineage 2 - it didn't have item decay, yet the crafter and spoiler dwarves were quite important for the server economy.
<div class="d4p-bbt-quote-title"><a href="https://www.ashesofcreation.com/forums/topic/item-decay-2/page/2/#post-6847" rel="nofollow">Helzbelz wrote:</a></div>
O and no there shouldnt be Epic Loot. It should just be the same gear that crafters can make. The Master crafters should be making the high end loot and it should take some high end mats to get that gear. However it should be prevalent enough that everyone can get the gear with effort. Just be wise with your gold and help out a crafter that can make you what you want when you are on. You will likely get your gear cheaper than others.
</blockquote>
If you are suggesting something similar to Shroud of the Avatar’s system… it is as casual-friendly at it can be, but it’s simply not interesting / rewarding enough for me. I would rather play something like Lineage 2 and reach good gear in 2 years while having fun with a constant-party in dungeons, than play SotA in which I can reach the same gear as everyone else in 1 month. Since I mentioned Lineage 2 – it didn’t have item decay, yet the crafter and spoiler dwarves were quite important for the server economy.
[/quote]
SOTA does not have a good gear system. Its also not really a full production game so its bad to use that game as an understanding. I am thinking a game like SWG where your gear will always change and you will be fine. We are also talking about not having Dungeons that end up being a Treadmill because the minute you do that is the minute you will get people that will bitch for nothing more than a Automated Crossed Realm Dungeon finder. Then the content will become too hard and then shit will get nerfed and then you will get everything in 1 month. The System I am talking about is not basing the importance of the game down to a gear treadmill which you are creating with a Dungeon style game where gear drops that is better than anything else.
Anyway, I never said that dungeons should hand the best gear - what I said earlier is that the best gear should be the crafted one, with epic items exceptions (the ones that drop only from big bosses*). Fine, you don't want epic drops - maybe those bosses can drop crafting recipes or something; I mean, there should be a cool reward for doing them.
The pve drop should be limited to just money, misc and consumables. There can be a scavenger class that has the ability to loot crafting materials from mobs. The crafters will create gear using those. If you want to get your crafting materials without fighting, I guess that they could also allow us to own farms, as in Archage.
Considering that MMOs are not exactly en-vogue these days, it would be in their interest to make the game friendly to all kinds of players. We could have areas with mobs suitable for solo / duo, areas suitable for parties, areas with lower rewards in which pvp is not allowed, open dungeons with stronger mobs and slightly better rewards and instanced pve dungeons with lower rewards than the open ones. I would rather have to run to the entrance of a dungeon and group with clanmates / people on the forum than not have dungeons at all.
*by big bosses I mean the kind that you need the whole guild to take them down
Anyway, I never said that dungeons should hand the best gear – what I said earlier is that the best gear should be the crafted one, with epic items exceptions (the ones that drop only from big bosses*). Fine, you don’t want epic drops – maybe those bosses can drop crafting recipes or something; I mean, there should be a cool reward for doing them.
The pve drop should be limited to just money, misc and consumables. There can be a scavenger class that has the ability to loot crafting materials from mobs. The crafters will create gear using those. If you want to get your crafting materials without fighting, I guess that they could also allow us to own farms, as in Archage.
Considering that MMOs are not exactly en-vogue these days, it would be in their interest to make the game friendly to all kinds of players. We could have areas with mobs suitable for solo / duo, areas suitable for parties, areas with lower rewards in which pvp is not allowed, open dungeons with stronger mobs and slightly better rewards and instanced pve dungeons with lower rewards than the open ones. I would rather have to run to the entrance of a dungeon and group with clanmates / people on the forum than not have dungeons at all.
*by big bosses I mean the kind that you need the whole guild to take them down
[/quote]
What I am thinking is more along the lines of a level 10 to 15 dungeon drops Tier 1 gear. This would be any gear within a range of Elemental resistances, Damages, types of Elemental damages, different types of armor and weapons. The dungeons should also drop a lot of gold, one time spell scrolls, Glamour gear, treasure maps, crafting mats and all kinds of other items that can be found throughout the game. Each item in the game has a different tier and crafters/gathers can make everything or gather everything in some way shape or form. There should be no rare gear. Yea not all crafters should be able to make all the gear out there, but there will be a crafter that can make what you want. Part of that is limiting the amount of recipes can learn. The point is make gear useful in difference situations and not streamline gear. Yes I know it will piss people off that they need to carry or have different sets of gear, for example gear for PVP because maybe fire is heavily used in PVP but in Dungeons maybe Arcane and nature resistances are needed more outside of fighting dragons.
The point is to make more than a streamlined game with streamlined gear. I want people to have to think about what they are doing and no just play whack a mole.
Cyrrena
Item Decay is not the only way to stimulate crafting.
lets say you have unbreakable gear, it needs repairing on death, general use, etc. but it can't break.
Now lets implement a power system for the gear, gear can be Tier 1-10. If you want to upgrade to a Tier 2, you need Gem from Boss A, 20 ore and 5 Logs. and 2(or 3 or 4... or x) of Tier 1, (explain this with lore or something, the crafting upgrading your gear needs to practice a few times, so bring him the practise pieces) Upgrading from T2 to T3 requires 2-3 T2 pieces + world items, T3-> T4 requires 4-5 T3 pieces + rarer world items, etc. by the time you get to T10, you might have bought 1000 T1 pieces or 5 T9 pieces, and need gem from World boss that only spawns when node is metropolis etc. remove the cap of how high items can go, let people grind it out if that's what they want to do, Result: endless need for crafters to keep creating the low /mid/high level gear. You can craft till your hearts content, there will ALWAYS be people buying/giving you mats to craft their higher level gear.
<div class="d4p-bbt-quote-title"><a href="https://www.ashesofcreation.com/forums/topic/item-decay-2/#post-5854" rel="nofollow">Helzbelz wrote:</a></div>
Let’s talk about Item Decay here. The reason I am bringing this up is because I love crafting.
</blockquote>
Item Decay is not the only way to stimulate crafting.
lets say you have unbreakable gear, it needs repairing on death, general use, etc. but it can’t break.
Now lets implement a power system for the gear, gear can be Tier 1-10. If you want to upgrade to a Tier 2, you need Gem from Boss A, 20 ore and 5 Logs. and 2(or 3 or 4… or x) of Tier 1, (explain this with lore or something, the crafting upgrading your gear needs to practice a few times, so bring him the practise pieces) Upgrading from T2 to T3 requires 2-3 T2 pieces + world items, T3-> T4 requires 4-5 T3 pieces + rarer world items, etc. by the time you get to T10, you might have bought 1000 T1 pieces or 5 T9 pieces, and need gem from World boss that only spawns when node is metropolis etc. remove the cap of how high items can go, let people grind it out if that’s what they want to do, Result: endless need for crafters to keep creating the low /mid/high level gear. You can craft till your hearts content, there will ALWAYS be people buying/giving you mats to craft their higher level gear.
[/quote]
Thank you end up with a god dam treadmill that no one wants. Again you people keep thinking this game should have Treadmills instead of being free flowing and allowing people to do they want when they want. The Tier system should ONLY be used for Tier 1 items from bosses are level 1 to 10 items and X crafter can craft these same items that drop of these dungeon bosses.
No the gear needs to be free flowing, the gear needs to break if you do not have that you just copy and pasted WOW's gear system with just a treadmill to upgrade the gear. Crafters are 100% tired of this bullshit system. Go back to SWG crafting and Item Decay and there will be 0 problem because you as a player will just need to find the gear you want from the crafters themselves or their vendors they have out in the world. Stop making this game like WOW.
[/quote]
Exactly. If they just use SWG as it was with the gear system no one will have problems with gear.
<div class="d4p-bbt-quote-title"><a href="https://www.ashesofcreation.com/forums/topic/item-decay-2/page/3/#post-9094" rel="nofollow">Nikerym wrote:</a></div>
<blockquote>
<div class="d4p-bbt-quote-title"><a href="https://www.ashesofcreation.com/forums/topic/item-decay-2/#post-5854" rel="nofollow">Helzbelz wrote:</a></div>
Let’s talk about Item Decay here. The reason I am bringing this up is because I love crafting.
</blockquote>
Item Decay is not the only way to stimulate crafting.
lets say you have unbreakable gear, it needs repairing on death, general use, etc. but it can’t break.
Now lets implement a power system for the gear, gear can be Tier 1-10. If you want to upgrade to a Tier 2, you need Gem from Boss A, 20 ore and 5 Logs. and 2(or 3 or 4… or x) of Tier 1, (explain this with lore or something, the crafting upgrading your gear needs to practice a few times, so bring him the practise pieces) Upgrading from T2 to T3 requires 2-3 T2 pieces + world items, T3-> T4 requires 4-5 T3 pieces + rarer world items, etc. by the time you get to T10, you might have bought 1000 T1 pieces or 5 T9 pieces, and need gem from World boss that only spawns when node is metropolis etc. remove the cap of how high items can go, let people grind it out if that’s what they want to do, Result: endless need for crafters to keep creating the low /mid/high level gear. You can craft till your hearts content, there will ALWAYS be people buying/giving you mats to craft their higher level gear.
</blockquote>
Thank you end up with a god dam treadmill that no one wants. Again you people keep thinking this game should have Treadmills instead of being free flowing and allowing people to do they want when they want. The Tier system should ONLY be used for Tier 1 items from bosses are level 1 to 10 items and X crafter can craft these same items that drop of these dungeon bosses.
No the gear needs to be free flowing, the gear needs to break if you do not have that you just copy and pasted WOW’s gear system with just a treadmill to upgrade the gear. Crafters are 100% tired of this bullshit system. Go back to SWG crafting and Item Decay and there will be 0 problem because you as a player will just need to find the gear you want from the crafters themselves or their vendors they have out in the world. Stop making this game like WOW.
[/quote]
Its a treadmill with Item decay. Except instead of it being progression you are literally running in the same place. Great my Tx item broke, now have to replace it, I don't gain ANYTHING by having to replace it. Literally the definition of a treadmill. sure, with a progression based system your still running, but your going somewhere, there's and end goal... none of this "well my gear just broke, time to go buy.... the exact same thing..." like wtf? give me some form of progression over static any day. The item system in SWG was literally the entire reason I didn't play that game for more then a few weeks. The last thing I want to do is play a game where I spend 10 hours farming for my gear, then spend the next 10 hours farming for it again because it will break, then once every 20 hours, I have to spend 10 hours farming for it AGAIN, sure, I could buy from a crafter (I'd be a crafter, because I love it) but I still need to grind the gold to pay for it somehow and while doing that I barely making any progression in the meantime. How is that free flowing? how is that letting me do what I want? I am spending 50% of my time just making sure I have my existing gear level available. You mention treadmills, that sounds like the definition of it to me. MMO's and RPG's in general are grindy by nature, adding grind to getting gear and power progression (Gear after max level) is exactly what the genre's call for. people might mention WOW as a non grindy game, but I disagree, spending 4 hours a night 3 nights a week progressing on bosses is grind. but you get progression, that is what makes the game fun, regardless of the grind. feeling like you are being rewarded for your efforts.
You are looking at this entirely from a crafting/economy perspective which I agree is important, however. you are ignoring the player experience from a gear point of view. I agree with you 100% that crafters need to stay relevant, (hell, i'll be one of the people competing with you on the market!) I just disagree that item decay is the way to do it, so I pitched something that achieves both goals. The demand for crafted items remains if people want to spend gold on it, (or grind it out killing dungeon bosses in which case you get nothing anyway as a crafter if they do this with item decay)
<div class="d4p-bbt-quote-title"><a href="https://www.ashesofcreation.com/forums/topic/item-decay-2/page/3/#post-9106" rel="nofollow">Helzbelz wrote:</a></div>
<blockquote>
<div class="d4p-bbt-quote-title"><a href="https://www.ashesofcreation.com/forums/topic/item-decay-2/page/3/#post-9094" rel="nofollow">Nikerym wrote:</a></div>
<blockquote>
<div class="d4p-bbt-quote-title"><a href="https://www.ashesofcreation.com/forums/topic/item-decay-2/#post-5854" rel="nofollow">Helzbelz wrote:</a></div>
Let’s talk about Item Decay here. The reason I am bringing this up is because I love crafting.
</blockquote>
Item Decay is not the only way to stimulate crafting.
lets say you have unbreakable gear, it needs repairing on death, general use, etc. but it can’t break.
Now lets implement a power system for the gear, gear can be Tier 1-10. If you want to upgrade to a Tier 2, you need Gem from Boss A, 20 ore and 5 Logs. and 2(or 3 or 4… or x) of Tier 1, (explain this with lore or something, the crafting upgrading your gear needs to practice a few times, so bring him the practise pieces) Upgrading from T2 to T3 requires 2-3 T2 pieces + world items, T3-> T4 requires 4-5 T3 pieces + rarer world items, etc. by the time you get to T10, you might have bought 1000 T1 pieces or 5 T9 pieces, and need gem from World boss that only spawns when node is metropolis etc. remove the cap of how high items can go, let people grind it out if that’s what they want to do, Result: endless need for crafters to keep creating the low /mid/high level gear. You can craft till your hearts content, there will ALWAYS be people buying/giving you mats to craft their higher level gear.
</blockquote>
Thank you end up with a god dam treadmill that no one wants. Again you people keep thinking this game should have Treadmills instead of being free flowing and allowing people to do they want when they want. The Tier system should ONLY be used for Tier 1 items from bosses are level 1 to 10 items and X crafter can craft these same items that drop of these dungeon bosses.
No the gear needs to be free flowing, the gear needs to break if you do not have that you just copy and pasted WOW’s gear system with just a treadmill to upgrade the gear. Crafters are 100% tired of this bullshit system. Go back to SWG crafting and Item Decay and there will be 0 problem because you as a player will just need to find the gear you want from the crafters themselves or their vendors they have out in the world. Stop making this game like WOW.
</blockquote>
Its a treadmill with Item decay. Except instead of it being progression you are literally running in the same place. Great my Tx item broke, now have to replace it, I don’t gain ANYTHING by having to replace it. Literally the definition of a treadmill. sure, with a progression based system your still running, but your going somewhere, there’s and end goal… none of this “well my gear just broke, time to go buy…. the exact same thing…” like wtf? give me some form of progression over static any day. The item system in SWG was literally the entire reason I didn’t play that game for more then a few weeks. The last thing I want to do is play a game where I spend 10 hours farming for my gear, then spend the next 10 hours farming for it again because it will break, then once every 20 hours, I have to spend 10 hours farming for it AGAIN, sure, I could buy from a crafter (I’d be a crafter, because I love it) but I still need to grind the gold to pay for it somehow and while doing that I barely making any progression in the meantime. How is that free flowing? how is that letting me do what I want? I am spending 50% of my time just making sure I have my existing gear level available. You mention treadmills, that sounds like the definition of it to me. MMO’s and RPG’s in general are grindy by nature, adding grind to getting gear and power progression (Gear after max level) is exactly what the genre’s call for. people might mention WOW as a non grindy game, but I disagree, spending 4 hours a night 3 nights a week progressing on bosses is grind. but you get progression, that is what makes the game fun, regardless of the grind. feeling like you are being rewarded for your efforts.
You are looking at this entirely from a crafting/economy perspective which I agree is important, however. you are ignoring the player experience from a gear point of view. I agree with you 100% that crafters need to stay relevant, (hell, i’ll be one of the people competing with you on the market!) I just disagree that item decay is the way to do it, so I pitched something that achieves both goals. The demand for crafted items remains if people want to spend gold on it, (or grind it out killing dungeon bosses in which case you get nothing anyway as a crafter if they do this with item decay)
[/quote]
I dont understand how you can say SWG was a treadmill? Really? If you played SWG you would know that 99% of the player base would never buy 1 set of gear from a vendor. They would buy 2 or 3 sets of Armor and a handful of weapons. They would put that in a chest in their house and bam had the gear when ever they wanted it. There was no treadmill at all. If you have killed mobs that dropped crafted material you either sold it on the Bazar, Sold it on your vendor in your house or sold/gave the items to crafters who in turn helped you out with gear. There was 0 Treadmill involved unless you expected to always have the same gear on and never had a stock of gear. Everyone in my guild and in the 18 guilds I was allied with always had access to gear. If they didnt have a stock they came back to the player run city and bought more.
The problem is You have a preference and a mind set that, You got your gear now that is the end of that. That is what you like and what I like is the SWG system because it had proven to be the best MMORPG Gear system around because crafters were always useful even some of the mid tier crafters. Any other system kills the mid tier crafters in favor of crafters who had 50 hours a week on their hands to endlessly craft high end stuff
SWG had a great system period. Some people might not like it. But we cannot make everyone happy, and the only way Crafters will have any chance of being relevant past a few months is if items decay and break requiring you to replace them. This should include siege equipment and ships when we have them. If done right Crafters will be kept busy all the time and this game will flourish because the gear model will be fairly flat. That is the only way to keep crafters busy. Every other system only makes crafters busy for short periods of time until people have their gear then there is no need for crafters until new higher item level gear comes out. If gear is flat and there is a good crafter base a SWG crafting system works because people are always buying new gear and they can pick up gathering professions to sell materials. It becomes a circle
Repair will be a big part in the game to fix items which have been reduced in durability, but completely destroying the item isn't something a lot of the people want and it would really make them annoyed about it.
Say you're a cleric or something, and then suddenly your weapon breaks after reaching 0 durability, but it is the best healing staff in the game. What then? People would go mad.
Durability will be a thing and it won't be insane and be able to repair like in WoW where you just click a button... at all levels, you'll have to go to someone who can repair it for you... so armour and weapons like axes... a blacksmith will be able to repair. And a tailor could repair cloth armour ect... This is what will be implemented and not the loss of weapons fully. Because if you lost your weapon, as I've stated, it would be disastrous.
Repair will be a big part in the game to fix items which have been reduced in durability, but completely destroying the item isn’t something a lot of the people want and it would really make them annoyed about it.
Say you’re a cleric or something, and then suddenly your weapon breaks after reaching 0 durability, but it is the best healing staff in the game. What then? People would go mad.
Durability will be a thing and it won’t be insane and be able to repair like in WoW where you just click a button… at all levels, you’ll have to go to someone who can repair it for you… so armour and weapons like axes… a blacksmith will be able to repair. And a tailor could repair cloth armour ect… This is what will be implemented and not the loss of weapons fully. Because if you lost your weapon, as I’ve stated, it would be disastrous.
[/quote]
Gear should not be that hard to come by. It should be as easy as you know a bunch of vendors that have the gear you mostly use. Go buy it from the vendor. If there is a look you want, great you have that piece of Glamour gear that you can Glamour your item to make it look the same way as you did before.
Great there is a Repair system in game. How many crafters that been looking for a deep crafting system since Star Wars Galaxies that will want to spend a lot of time crafting just so they are useful a few months out of an expansion other than for repairs? O wait FFXIV 1.0 did that where you had to get repairs from crafters, after about 6 months you couldnt find a dam crafter to safe your life because no crafters were spending hours leveling crafting to be useful for repairs only. Sorry it has been tried and FAILED EPICLY. Again Item Decay is the only thing that will Truly keep crafters busy all the time. Hell Look at BDO where you have to upgrade your gear, crafters are hard to find in that game as well because crafters want to make shit and sell shit. Not Upgrade and Repair gear only.
If Ashes wants to be a Crafting heavy game as they say they do they need large amounts of crafters because you cannot do it all. BUT if we are just going to copy and paste WOW dungeons and Copy and Paste how Gear works in every other game today. Crafters will not spend time outside of the initial need for everyone. Once that need is gone they will quit playing or do something else. Supply and Demand is critical for crafters and YES there will be some crafters that's all they will want to do is make mid tier gear all the time. Some will want to make high end gear. Others will want to make ships. But if everyone has the gear they need after 6 months what is the point of crafting? Upgrades and Repairs are mindless jobs that people will not want to do.
You have spent the whole thread literally asking them to copy SWG And shooting down anyone who disagrees with you.
Just because that was an experience you enjoyed doesn't mean it's the ONLY way to do it going forward. that kind of close minded thinking prevents new and exciting innovation and ideas that may work even better from being Discussed/Implemented.
I think crafting should be pretty hard and special. Work/reward should be high. If i put 10/100/1000 hours in crafting, i want to create a weapon that is on par with the amount of time spend creating it. It's all about time spent / reward.
Maybe create some legendary weapons/armor, where you only can get the plans, ingredients trough the hardest dungeons and monsters/bosses. Or something where you have to do some special quest line to get the recipe.
The games should be balanced. So if it takes about 100 hours (if your are already max level) to get a really good weapon trough raiding. Then ofc, if you would spend 100 hours of crafting you should have the opportunity to create a equal quality weapon.
Thats my 2 cents. But Please, No weapon decay.
A cool idea would be Guild crafting. That people could post a item that they want to craft in the guild. And you can get points for crafting them for other guild members. If you reach a certain threshold of point, you will become, something like a expert guild craftsman, and a master or grand-master guilds craftsman. With each guild level you go up, get new Special guild equipment you can craft (with the guild colors or something that other people can see that it's form your guild.). Systems lie this will keep people talking and work towards a common goal.
Thing about it this way. How many people will see "Item decay" as something Fun, and won't play the game if it's not there.. How many people will see it Neutral.. and how many will hate it, and won't play the game if it's there..
I think, more people won't play the game when the game has "Item Decay", then people that won't play the game when it has no "Item Decay"..
You could do more harm then good with it. Fun in a game should come from different things. Story, character progression, team work, guild, dungeons, Cool new game mechanics that will WOUW players. Not stuff like, Item Decay. This will probably do more damage then good.
<div class="d4p-bbt-quote-title"><a href="https://www.ashesofcreation.com/forums/topic/item-decay-2/page/3/#post-9329" rel="nofollow">Helzbelz wrote:</a></div>
and Copy and Paste how Gear works in every other game today
</blockquote>
You have spent the whole thread literally asking them to copy SWG And shooting down anyone who disagrees with you.
Just because that was an experience you enjoyed doesn’t mean it’s the ONLY way to do it going forward. that kind of close minded thinking prevents new and exciting innovation and ideas that may work even better from being Discussed/Implemented.
[/quote]
Thats because you will have such a small base of crafters in this game after 6 months because crafters will see that they are basically useless in this game after that amount of time because you are copying and pasting what crafters have hated since 2004. Why do crafters love SWG? Because it was the best crafting system ever.
Thing about it this way. How many people will see “Item decay” as something Fun, and won’t play the game if it’s not there.. How many people will see it Neutral.. and how many will hate it, and won’t play the game if it’s there..
I think, more people won’t play the game when the game has “Item Decay”, then people that won’t play the game when it has no “Item Decay”..
You could do more harm then good with it. Fun in a game should come from different things. Story, character progression, team work, guild, dungeons, Cool new game mechanics that will WOUW players. Not stuff like, Item Decay. This will probably do more damage then good.
[/quote]
Zelda is not an MMORPG. Have you ever played SWG? Do you know it had Item decay and items breaking? Do you know people were JUST fine. No one spent HOURS getting gear. They went to a vendor and bought gear. Then they went back and played the game make more Credits doing what ever the hell they wanted to do. There gear broke and bought more. Sometimes they bought 2 or 3 sets. Zelda is a piss poor example of Item Decay. You are playing a Single Player Game. Item Decay in SWG was very very simple. Go to your Player run City with several guilds and which likely has a half dozen to several dozen vendors with gear on them. In Zelda you are grinding for gear. In a SWG like setup You get gear just by spending the credits you made by playing the game in any way you want to. You NEVER where grinding to make credits, the Grind was either to get a Jedi Pre-CU OR to level your crafting. You could level your combat classes just by doing what ever you want that was at your skill level.
Also people who think I am combating everything that disagrees with me. Yep that is True. Why? Well its just like people in other kickstarter games that want something outside of a copy and paste of WOW. Copying and Pasting WOW outside of UI or using Tab Target will just make this game like Rift, SWTOR, FFXIV, ESO and the rest of the MMORPGS that are low population games. Go to the Pantheon forums and you will see people BITCH about losing XP and having Corpse runs, thats what people want and the people that want this do not want the same MMORPG that have come out in the last 10+ years. Get over it, people like me will fight like hell to get the game we want not what WOW players want that never played MMORPGS before WOW and cannot see anything outside the WOW Formula.
Thats because you will have such a small base of crafters in this game after 6 months because crafters will see that they are basically useless in this game after that amount of time because you are copying and pasting what crafters have hated since 2004. Why do crafters love SWG? Because it was the best crafting system ever.
[/quote]
^ This... Well said... I never quit crafting in SWG, there was always something to craft. In EQ2, I quit crafting because everything you looted was better. With a system, like SWG, you combine 2 communities together that depend on each other. The only thing lacking, is mobs should never drop gear, but they should drop components that a crafter can use to make the gear/buffs/potions, etc.
People take those components to a crafter, if they don't craft themselves, and work out a deal to have it crafted in a trade/craft window like EQ2 does. You never actually give the components to the crafter, you drop them in the craft/trade window and that window stays open until the item is finished, then it appears in your inventory. You can pay the crafter or trade mats or whatever you decide. it's silly that you just killed a spider (GW2) and looted a great sword. What makes since to me is, you just killed a dragon or something with hide like armor and looted a scale or scales used to craft armor or shields. Harvest hides to craft leather/cloth, meat for food, potions, etc. Item decay gets people working with each other.
As a crafter also; I want to see a new, BETTER THEN SWG, way of doing things. I'm 100% sure if you gave it some serious thought you could design a system that caters to crafters, keeps them relevant, and doesn't have item decay. You are just too closed minded to consider and actually give it some thought. I've already suggested one method that as a Crafter I would LOVE to see implemented, but instead of looking at the idea, evaluating it, you went "Not SWG, not interested", Stop being closed minded and actually discuss the problem and come up with a unique solution instead of trying to copy something.
<div class="d4p-bbt-quote-title"><a href="https://www.ashesofcreation.com/forums/topic/item-decay-2/page/4/#post-9494" rel="nofollow">Helzbelz wrote:</a></div>
Thats because you will have such a small base of crafters in this game after 6 months because crafters will see that they are basically useless in this game after that amount of time because you are copying and pasting what crafters have hated since 2004. Why do crafters love SWG? Because it was the best crafting system ever.
</blockquote>
As a crafter also; I want to see a new, BETTER THEN SWG, way of doing things. I’m 100% sure if you gave it some serious thought you could design a system that caters to crafters, keeps them relevant, and doesn’t have item decay. You are just too closed minded to consider and actually give it some thought. I’ve already suggested one method that as a Crafter I would LOVE to see implemented, but instead of looking at the idea, evaluating it, you went “Not SWG, not interested”, Stop being closed minded and actually discuss the problem and come up with a unique solution instead of trying to copy something.
[/quote]
I am not closed minded. The problem is there is NO WAY to keep crafting relevant without Item Decay. Every system has tried since WOW and every one has FAILED. Look at FFXIV 1.0 for example. You had to have a crafter repair your gear and it was not enough to keep crafters in the game because no one wants to sit and only repair gear. Gear upgrades have been tried in ArcheAge and people hate spending hours on a System that is RNG. RNG is way many crafters hate FFXIVs current system.
Add to that the power creep that ends up in the game when you do not flatten out gear. Add to that Crafters when you do not flatten out the gear you have a system where everyone gets to the highest gear level and no one needs the gear Crafting stops becoming valuable. When you have gear systems that rely on Treadmills which Do X until you reach this gear level, then Do Y until you reach this next gear level, you kill crafting. The ONLY way to fix that is to say screw having Epic gear, flatten out the gear system and have Item Decay.
The problem with most people that dont like it have 0 real experience with it outside of a single player game or a game like minecraft. So Its not close mind its knowing what systems are out there and knowing that I will not touch Ashes if it does not Aim to be what I want. Yes Gear Systems and Crafting, Automated Dungeon Finders and gear treadmills will break me playing Ashes Period. O Wait Why? Because that is EXACTLY what I am playing today. Why the fuck would I jump games that is exactly what I am playing today? Hint I will not because there is no point, I did the Jump from WOW to Rift, then back to WOW then WOW to SWTOR then back to WOW then WOW to FFXIV. You can add in ArcheAge, DDO, LOTRO, BDO, ESO, Neverwinter, Tera and a few other MMORPGs I have played over the last 10 years. ALL exactly the same. Just minor changes in their systems. What you want is a copy and paste of these other games. I dont I want something from before WOW because it is what I want, not Garbage systems.
If the game implements Item decay for crafters. Then i guess i'm no crafter anymore. How boring it is to craft the same armor again and again until new content hits the game. Lets say you're in a guild, the guild best crafter. Then you have to probly craft a shit load of the same stuff every week or so, because it keeps breaking. There is no progression. I would rather work on getting to Super rare crafting materials to eventually craft a super rare or legendary weapon. then have to do busy work, making the same old, same old.
Most MMOs have crafting as a thing you will just max out, collect rare recipes and then have to wait until the next patch to move further with new items to make with new gathering materials.
Archeage tried to involve RNG into it to make it more involved but just made it frustrating imo.
I would like to see crafting as a mini-game that involves real player skill, which determines the stats of the item. Much more engaging this way. I would also like to see a research element where you create new items by experimenting with new combinations of materials, some of which only become available after nodes become level 5-6. This will drag out the usefulness of crafting to more than just repairing items.
If they link in researching new techniques with the processing skills it means that new types of materials naturally evolve over the course of the game, opening up new crafting options.
So ultimately, my opinion is to create bottlenecks to better crafting gear throughout the game. Gathering is limited by nodes reaching 5-6 for some raw materials, processing is limited by the time to research new techniques (producing new processed materials), and finally crafting is limited by the materials available and the time taken to research new ways to create items using the new materials. Because this starts with gathering and trickles through to crafting, the game would artificially release craftables to the players over time. This makes crafting much more involved and expands its lifespan as an engaging mechanic.
If the game implements Item decay for crafters. Then i guess i’m no crafter anymore. How boring it is to craft the same armor again and again until new content hits the game. Lets say you’re in a guild, the guild best crafter. Then you have to probly craft a shit load of the same stuff every week or so, because it keeps breaking. There is no progression. I would rather work on getting to Super rare crafting materials to eventually craft a super rare or legendary weapon. then have to do busy work, making the same old, same old.
[/quote]
No people like you that go to every forum and basically want a Copy of WOW is why MMORPGS are Treadmills. Guess what? The Kickstarter MMORPGs are changing that formula. Pantheon is a niche game and will not be a treadmill. LoA, CoE, and Ashes are also trying not to be a Treadmill. Either you like the game and the direction people who want something more than a WOW Clone or you go back to WOW. This game will fail within a few years if they Clone WOW.