Feature idea: in GW1 you can draw on the map and anyone on your team can see it having someone scout ahead and draw an X where an ambush is or a line on the safest path would help a ton with on the fly info and coordination.
Feedback: (my assumption: defense and attack are events that encourage randoms nearby to join) if items are picked up and sold by individual players I don't see a world where a group attacks a caravan and ever gives anything of value to the people that helped. Only way I see current system working is if everything picked up is a quest item and once all quest items are turned in everyone gets a % based off helping (time next to cart, dmg done/taken from other side)
Game is looking to be shaping up great its to early to talk about balance so I couldn't have asked for more then this Keep up the great work.
Some noticable things to send feedback:
- Caravan hitbox was only on the horses, I think it should also include the "cargo", even Dred tried to hit these, but it didn't work,
- people either swim too fast or raft float too slow. I feel that raft should take longer to actually construct and deconstruct, but in order to chase raft you have to mount up on water or on land if you go down the stream. It would be a reward for spending lots of time in place while raft is building/deconstructing. Now it was swimming the same speed as everyone and it looked a bit comical to see 30 ppl swim aorund it instead of want to jump on the raft
- I would actually love to see damage for hitting the rocks or something too, I don't know if you plan to implement somehting like that,
- if it works as an event to join defenders/attackers I hope you will try to implement some kind of system like other MMO's tried where you get some buffs for being in the "losing" side in terms of some % haste or damage reduction % or even loot/xp/reputation/currency buff so we will see a bit more balanced fights from time to time not just one sided stomps,
- I know that it is Alpha 2 and not yet finished product, but I highly hope you won't forget about immersion and you will add more useless NPC's that work on farms/walk around in cities or even do some things like collecting flowers (not really, but just some animations that they acutally do) around the town aswell, I know that you presented us kinda similiar thing in node update, but it wasn't very good yet so I hope you won't forget to upgrade it with more time
- people looks too "glasscannon" but I bet it is not a phase where you fix damage and healing yet.
- I think that events like these should also "lure" or spawn every now and then some PvE monsters so if we won't find any opponents in terms of pvp we won't just afk navigate from point A to point B or just give a chance to spawn nearby event that will award us some bonus for our caravan or progression but won't be accessible by our caravan and we will have to climb up somewhere in order to grab it and finish small event with part of the caravan group. It would make it much more complex and interesting also in terms of PvE, remember that not every time we will face enemies in "player" form.
Overall stream was very good, animations of raft were nice, there wasn't too many issues with lags or spikes during fights, spells become a little bit more clean, but mage still looks a bit too flashy when you get 10 ball lightnings on the screen with some other frost/fire/lightning spells.
Per usual I'll provide some of my thoughts regarding the monthly live stream, but this time I feel like I'll make things easier by making a list of my own! :]
* Regarding TTK... - Personally, I am not as concerned as many others regarding the TTK, especially not if it is as stated that it is within the "faster but acceptable" reach. 6 rangers all using snipe at the same time on the same target - that has no protective buffs - seems like a reasonable kill to me considering that Steven was level 25 and that these rangers were set up in ideal cirumstance (aka, they were ambushing). After that, HP bars were moving much slower - and I imagine they will move even slower when bard with buffs arrive - as combat broke out. Steven's group had almost double the player count, yet I'd say that the other group stood their ground quite well (especially considering Steven's zerg had the jump on them). I am not sure if they had a proper target caller on their side - but it certainly felt more balanced than I personally expected.
* The caravan movement... - The movement speed just about fine, imo. Unless there will be some more risk associated with attacking, I feel like "peeling off" the caravan while having it racing away should be a viable tactic in order to not completely doom the position as caravan defenders. Having these risky situations in the form of having to stop to build rafts and then convert it back to cart is enough, in my opinion. That said, I would love to see other tactics becoming an option through the caravan speccing; bunkering down with the caravan as a buffing beacon to encourage confrontation could be something! Of course, a bit work on the start/stop and acceleration would be amazing! I'd recommend taking a look on GW2's rafts and mounts in this regard.
* Regarding the scenery - it was beautiful. The water, the lighting, the area.... You guys stated that they were "work in progress" but holy smokes - Verra is beautiful! I cannot wait to see this live!
* The visuals during the fight... looked aboslutely fine to me! You could clearly tell which spells were being cast, and from where. I can agree that the lightning balls looked a bit out of place - but at least they were easy to spot! :']
As for concerns, I'll just echo the ones I'd like the team to keep an eye at:
* Risk for attackers - will there be any risk at all, apart from having to potentially put another caravan up?
* Rewarding players for their efforts - I'd love to see a more efficient way of doing this than singular trades with each player.
* Destroyed caravans - having the loot laying there and trust that players - especially puggies - won't mess that up for each other feels... naive. I feel like most people will only entrust anything related to caravans to their own guilds in order to avoid "newbies" (that have not learned the caravan system) and griefers (that just want to watch the world burn) - so I would love to see a less complicated (?) system that would encourage people to make new friends and/or recruit outside help. Or at least a system that does not allow one player to screw so many people over!
2 initial MAJOR point of feedback I'd like to share,
Love the HP bar not being visible, that is good for PvP it adds an extra layer of complexity and it is great
Absolutely hate the faster TTK, the original plan was 30~60s and this was a major point that I was looking forward to, its currently way too fast people get melted by 2 rangers, hope it gets balanced to a longer TTK so that we can enjoy long fights that are skilled and for mass PvP to feel good,
will discuss this with my community and follow up with feedback,
one side didnt realy have any healers which would extend the TTK like steven group was pretty much unkilable it seem compared to the other side but that was due to the other side getting less to 0 healers in comparison :P
I love this caravan system. I'm usually pure crafter or at least a crafter and as such this is my wish list for the system:
1.Every crate in caravan is very heavy, contains more cargo than a single player can carry. Maybe a single player with mount could carry it. This way it would be always better to use caravan with guards than just a group of mounted players running between towns. Large quantity of goods in single crate would also explaint long reloading time.
2.When new caravan is summoned it is summoned with skeleton crew (caravan is not only a horse and driver) that load „reclaimed” cargo to it instead of teleporting it. Players can help with that to speed the process but every small crate need 2 players, medium 3, big 4 and so on (maybe even automatic animation that can be broken by moving of character; mages can use telekinesis, summoner pets and other just hands; warriors can be count as 2 players).
3.Summoned caravan arrives not completed. It should be fast version of caravan, just a frame of it with mounts and skeleton crew. On site the crew would bild it up and modify it / rig it accordingly. Players could speed the process (maybe under fire, deciding to join the fight or to join the construction). There could be few kinds of starting fast caravan / crews / rigs-upgreades and so on.
4.Opening the crate on field destroyes or pollutes most of the cargo. There should be cler warning and clear indicator that thief reclaimed only a small portion of cargo. This way summoning a new caravan if way more profitable.
5.Skeleton crew should build the raft, players should be ablo to help.
6.Building raft or summoned caravan should require some materials. You should have them with the sceleton crew but players speeding up the building should use their own materials (from inventory or they can gather them from forest or from destroyed caravan or defense structrure)
7.There are defensce strutures to be build. For ambushers to block or slow the caravan. For defenders to hide from part of atacking damage during repaires or rafting or summoning new caravan, maybe healing objects and so on. Maybe some light sige equipment: small balista, roman scorpio or magical barier generator like mages bubble but little larger.
8.There must be a way to slow or even stop the caravan. Damaged caravan should be stoped before destroyed but it should be posible for players to repair it (maybe only crafters and skeleton crew - crew outside of caravan might be killed maybe). Imagine crafters standing on running caravan and repairing it under constant fire and beeing healed by healers fighting around - glorious.
Sorry for my english.
One more thing. Why a random player should join attacking or defending the caravan. Looting crates after destroing a caravan should not be to profitable (for attackers is a potencial lost of part of goods). Helping the caravan normaly gives nothing (unless there is loot from killed players). There should be bounty system. Loot chest founded by atackers and other chest by defenders. When You enter event there should be a massege: attackers placed a bounty for helping atack the caravan and defenders placed a reward for helping defend it. It might be gold, some cargo or other items. With gold its siplm: „attackers placed a bounty for helping atack the caravan 1000 gold”. For other stuff: „attackers placed a bounty for helping atack the caravan - silver chest with goods”. bounty or reward is displyed at the end of the event and split acording to contribution/ random or other system.
1. TTK is pointless if a group of camouflaged rangers can just melt a group over unreachable heights, after seeing the engage between the 2 groups I seriously hope classes have skills like life detection, anti-projectile fields, and some gear that provides with protection against projectiles and stealth damage in exchange for other things to prepare for this kind of content.
2. TTK was hard to see, the size difference between the 2 groups was too big, personally I prefer a TTK between 30s to 1m in a 1 on 1.
3. I know Steven mentioned some time ago a loss of rank or progression related to some “bandit guild,” but as it stands now, merchants lose time, materials/money, and the vehicle, while the bandits have almost no risk associated to failing an attack other than this unknown rank/progression and a small amount of time compared to what time merchants lose. This needs to be tested and revised, as it stands now being a bandit seems more enticing than being a merchant.
4. Make the next PVP showcase balanced so we can give proper feedback on it.
I also forget to mention. It would be nice to kinda "build" the caravan in the wilds. If you have event area, all nearby trees would 100% drop some kind of ingredient needed to make a caravan so we won't be able to pre-farm materials to instantly place it. The more you gather the faster it spawns so for example if 30 ppl farm it around you would spawn it in 2-3 mins, but if you try to spawn it with 5 ppl you will need like close to 10min to arrive. Or just completely ignore the mechanic and let it spawn in regular time that would be set on 15 mins for example. Max cap would be around 2-3 mins so we won't be able to spawn it faster with zerg
1. TTK is pointless if a group of camouflaged rangers can just melt a group over unreachable heights, after seeing the engage between the 2 groups I seriously hope classes have skills like life detection, anti-projectile fields, and some gear that provides with protection against projectiles and stealth damage in exchange for other things to prepare for this kind of content.
Camouflaged rangers were not invisible, you could see their blurred outlines when they stood at the top of the mountain (and that was awesome!!!) so the solution to not getting sniped to death is: Pay attention to your surroundings!
That said, the plan is to have rangers with detection abilities, so the counter to being ambushed by rangers will probably be to have your own ranger scout for threats!
I'd love to see the tank get a bulwark anti/projektilen ability as that is an amazing power fantasy, BUT.... After playing GW2 I am painfully aware of that anti-projectile abilities just results in people stacking AoE classes and boycott rangers in group PvP. :[ I hope IS managed to balance things out!
Here is more feedback afte watchiing several times the stream:
The game still looks too flashy, especially in massive PvP. This is something that affect the gameplay in several ways, but also how the whole scene looks.
Use More Muted Color Palette for Effects: Using less saturated or darker colors for skill effects can reduce visual fatigue and make it easier for players to focus on strategy and gameplay mechanics without distractions. This also helps ensure that special effects do not dominate the visual scene, especially in massive combat situations where many players are using abilities simultaneously.
Visual Differentiation by Class: Limiting the more flashy and colorful visual effects to specific classes, like mages or other magical classes, can add a layer of visual strategy, allowing players to quickly identify the type of threat or support a particular class might be providing on the battlefield. For non-magical classes, such as archers, effects could be more subtle or realistic, focusing on showcasing the skill without overwhelming the scene. IMHO, skills like that flashy green arrow-machine gun from the Archer is too much, also it looks more like a Star Wars blaster than a medieval set.
Optimization of Effects for Massive PvP: Consider optimizing effects in massive PvP situations, possibly with a setting that allows players to adjust the intensity or visibility of certain visual effects. This could include options to simplify skill effects in high-player combat situations, reducing the number of flashes, particles, and other graphical elements that can make the action hard to follow.
Visual Feedback and Gameplay: While aesthetics are important, it is crucial that any adjustments to visual effects do not compromise players' ability to read the game and react appropriately. Each skill should have a clear visual indicator of its area of effect, casting time, and immediate impact, so players can make informed decisions in the heat of the moment.
Implementing these changes will require a careful balance between aesthetics, functionality, and accessibility. It would be beneficial for the development team to collect more community feedback and conduct iterative testing to find the right balance that satisfies most players. This feedback and adjustment process is crucial for creating a gaming experience that is both visually appealing and solidly playable.
Everything looks great so far. Loved the health bars lacking numbers. I actually wish you would extend that to pve. The only thing I liked about lost ark was the lack of boss health bars.
Utility idea for summoners could be summon servants to labor and speed up transofrmation of caravan to raft or back to land btw. necromancer summons a bunch of skeletal workers that helps convert the raft for example could be interesting idea
One of the first concerns I have with this system is what is to prevent it from getting zerged down? In new world we saw unfortunate development where mega companies would dominate the open world by zerging. and over time all the good players of opposing factions would instead join the top companies instead of fighting against them. This eventually lead to a monopoly that was unable to contest and it became extremely toxic and unfun.
Another question I have is. How do you identify where the caravan is headed? Can I grief my own node by stealing the supplies intended to go towards progressing my own node and take all that profit for myself? Perhaps this is intended and you rely on the players to create the equilibrium? (Something I am not necessarily against tbh.)
Feedback about the raft conversion. I really think this mechanic is very cool. But I think it should require players to interact with the raft station in order to progress the building of the raft. This creates a more intense and engaging encounter. Especially when being attacked. As some people will have to build while others protect those who are building.
Other than that I think it is mostly looking very good so far. I am super excited to experience it for myself in Q3 ;D
How do you feel about the Caravan PvP Preview?
Excited! Looked awesome. It’s a great start. Obviously a lot needs to go through balance, and you set it up to make sure you won for demonstration purposes. TTK was a bit quick, caravan a bit squishy and there were numerous obvious bugs that I am sure the team is all over. But the mechanics, the gameplay has so much potential. Very exciting and exceeded my expectations.
What excites you about playing and interacting with other players and the Caravan System?
First the whole conversation that occurred was great. Scouts get scouting, tanks up front, that was great. The flow was great as well. The rangers on the cliff in camo with the opening salvo, then everyone running down the hill… super exciting. There is an openness to strategy that will occur in game with tons of people playing.
Overall, this ends up being a key element in world PvP as you have described. I got it before when it was described years ago, but now I understand what a huge piece it will be.
Is there anything in particular you’re excited or concerned about regarding what was shown with the Caravan PvP Preview?
Excitement described above.
Concerned a bit about a couple of things.
First is the “swapping” of cargo from specific to generic loot. If my caravan is initially destroyed and captured, then we rally and recapture the caravan, do I just get generic loot or do I get my original cargo back? If I had refined some frozen ore from the far reaches of Verra and was shipping to a better place to turn that into a top tier sword, then the value of the generic loot will likely be far below its actual time value. How will this be addressed? If I get generic loot that is potentially worth 1/10th of the original value, then my incentive to rally is reduce to just revenge. Also, next time I will be strongly evaluating the difference of just refining in node…reducing the number of caravans available to attack.
Second concern is scaling and risk vs reward. The whole event looked super fun. I will likely be spending an inordinate amount of time hunting caravans just for the fun of it, regardless of how much I get from it. Death on its own seems like a low risk. From the opposite side, moving high value goods in a caravan seems high risk, depending directly on rarity and time commitment. The reward there is that moving it gives me a boost in price or perhaps the ability to transform into something better(thus more valuable). Balancing things like TTK is relatively straightforward, numerical adjustments. Balancing human emotions like wanting to destroy caravans vs the value that a caravan trip represents is a whole different beast. How do you balance that to have enough caravans to be able to be attacked while making it safe enough so you don’t lose 50 hours of gameplay from gathering and refining in a single 20min trip? There was one point where you discussed “fake” loot. That will be a key element I think. Discussing that more later will be great.
Are there similar systems you’ve seen in other games that you like or dislike? If so, please explain!
Eve online is the first thing that comes to mind. I played for a bit, the entry curve was way too steep because existing players had such a huge advantage.
Other stuff:
Getting players together and distributing rewards at the end seems important and was hinted at but not fully discussed. If I have a caravan and I want it protected, it would be great to hire a guild to protect it… maybe not my own. If they protect it and it gets to the other node, then they get a chit that can be turned into a vendor where I put some cash in escrow for the transaction for example. If it doesn’t arrive, then I get my protection money back. It gets complicated though, because the base value of the generic goods needs to be low enough so that it doesn’t dwarf the protection costs. Also, like others have said, if you destroy a caravan, there needs to be a transparent quick way to trade. I don’t want to make 12 individual trade requests and have to keep track of who was in the raid and who did what…
Thank you again for being open about this. It’s fantastic work and really is setting a new standard for game development. You should all be proud of what you have made and excited for alpha2.
A few recommended improvements based on my opinion, archage system, asmon current takes.
Recommends improvements:
1. Having players manual load the caravan and off load it.
2. Having players build the caravan and raft. Speed up the process if more help.
3. Having players row the caravan.
This will add the following to the game
1. Participation and include players. So they are not just sitting around waiting. Feel more part of the event and world.
2. Risk vs reward. Players can choose to stand watch and protect or speed up the process.
3. Risk vs reward. Players can choose to give material to speed up the process or not loose material but process is slower.
Question / addition options
1. Is it possible to add a way other than guild spy’s to see caravans moving about?
- maybe a node upgrade for spy’s / surveillance pinging a caravan coming up soon? Or deployed?
- or some kind of addition spec, how there are map specs, or crafters. Maybe something for trackers to be notified when a caravan is deployed, near by etc.
2. Is there spells to increase raft speed also?
3. Is there skill trees or perks of some kind to track down caravans. Like a tracker perk.
Here is more feedback afte watchiing several times the stream:
The game still looks too flashy, especially in massive PvP. This is something that affect the gameplay in several ways, but also how the whole scene looks.
Use More Muted Color Palette for Effects: Using less saturated or darker colors for skill effects can reduce visual fatigue and make it easier for players to focus on strategy and gameplay mechanics without distractions. This also helps ensure that special effects do not dominate the visual scene, especially in massive combat situations where many players are using abilities simultaneously.
Visual Differentiation by Class: Limiting the more flashy and colorful visual effects to specific classes, like mages or other magical classes, can add a layer of visual strategy, allowing players to quickly identify the type of threat or support a particular class might be providing on the battlefield. For non-magical classes, such as archers, effects could be more subtle or realistic, focusing on showcasing the skill without overwhelming the scene. IMHO, skills like that flashy green arrow-machine gun from the Archer is too much, also it looks more like a Star Wars blaster than a medieval set.
Optimization of Effects for Massive PvP: Consider optimizing effects in massive PvP situations, possibly with a setting that allows players to adjust the intensity or visibility of certain visual effects. This could include options to simplify skill effects in high-player combat situations, reducing the number of flashes, particles, and other graphical elements that can make the action hard to follow.
Visual Feedback and Gameplay: While aesthetics are important, it is crucial that any adjustments to visual effects do not compromise players' ability to read the game and react appropriately. Each skill should have a clear visual indicator of its area of effect, casting time, and immediate impact, so players can make informed decisions in the heat of the moment.
Implementing these changes will require a careful balance between aesthetics, functionality, and accessibility. It would be beneficial for the development team to collect more community feedback and conduct iterative testing to find the right balance that satisfies most players. This feedback and adjustment process is crucial for creating a gaming experience that is both visually appealing and solidly playable.
They mentioned in the live stream a lot of the work is not done for effects directly.
Well the the content in the video looked really good. I think caravans should be escorted by mobile siege weapons. Caravan should have a couple of siege weapons on it. I am an avid reader fo the Darksun Dungeouns and Dragons Campaing setting. In the game well there is an extensive caravan system. And trading system; even came out with supplement called The dune trader. Player started of with small bt agile animals of burden called crodlu, and could end owning his own trading company with mercenaries and henchment competeing against other trading companies.
I want to emphasize that the content in the video was good; unfortunately I have nothing positive to say as far as logistics and demgraphics are concerned. Looks like there will be more people wanting to pillage a caravan, than caravans to pillage. Shortage of caravans. Whole thing is lopsided.
But instead of me just going and on and on with game mechics, Instead maybe Ashes of Creation should go take a look at successful Open world PvP that offer similar content and see how it works in those games.
For example Eve online. One of the things that is not so obvious is that the game itself acts like a filter; it gets all the people that are interested in that type of open world PvP content together. You log in and few minutes later your in your desired content. If here are not enough caravans In AoC then palyer may have to hunt for caravans for a while and as soon as the event is completeint player will want to do more caravans, so that they can experience the A++ PvP event again.
Right now Caravans is a pvp local event. I am just going to ask the Ashes of Creation a question. Let say the caravan PvP experience is an A++ Experience. And every pvper is very eager to pillage caravans. How is Intrepid Studios going to accomadate those PvPer. You might say. well it is up to the players. Yes I get that, but if there are not enough caravans to pillage they might just go get a similar experience in another game that is a B minus minus exérience but at least they get to experience it.
Another thing ot consider reward for caravans is Gold so goes back to that Gold per hour thing vs the fun. In Open world pvp game reward usually related to becoming better PvPer. (better gear). I mean I could just go on and on and on, but might be better for Ashes of Creation to analyze very carefully how this type of gamplay is successful in an openworld PvP game.
Same thing foes for Nodes and possibly Bounter Hunter system.
I've a few considerations that were mentioned in a fairly amount of comments on this post...
- TTK is insanely low, the initial idea for this to be around 30s-60s is much more attractive for massive PvP fights
- It would be good to have a way to identify Tanks and Healers of your group using an icon or something like this, it would be really helpful during a big raid PvP.
- Hiding total amount of HP is fine, although, you guys need to be careful when adding finishing moves to classes... in case you do add them, you need to make sure it's % based and not on HP numeric amount.
- Would be nice if people had to interact to convert caravans into rafts or the other way around and also, have some sort of progression bar so people have an idea of time necessary for the convertion.
The caravan itself:
- Visual and auditory feedback needed when you hit the caravan. And the hitbox should not just be the horses. I saw a warrior in the back swinging a sword at the caravan but there was little to not feedback at all that it was getting hit.
- Animation and audio feedback on the horses may need some TLC. Maybe it seemed that way because they were moving so slow when going uphill?
- The speed of the caravan when not under the speed boost ability is REALLY slow. I know terrain has an impact on it, which is really cool, but it was moving very very slow when going up the hill in middle of the battle.
- Have the caravan show signs of damage/gradual wear and tear. Perhaps tie this into a slowing debuff until it is "repaired". Having to dedicate some people to repairing vs combat would be an interesting strategic decision. On the flipside, having it fully repaired may grant some defensive buff, which causes the attackers to need to split damage between caravan and players.
- It seemed like you could easily outrun the combat with the caravan, effectively avoiding pvp entirely.
- The broken state of the caravan looked great. But the visuals of the crates magically appearing didn't look great.
- I would prefer people manually putting the crates onto a new caravan instead of the AoE pickup ability from the caravan driver.
- I don't like that you can magically summon a caravan. I think you either need to bring enough materials for a caravan and have people build it actively OR have a caravan in waiting to swoop in (which has an additional risk of being spotted). Something as simple as "hitting the frame with a hammer" will continue the construction along with the necessary material cost.
- Perhaps abilities from the caravan that can support the players around it?
The Raft
- I loved the appearance of the raft and the scaffolding, but the driver teleporting was a little jarring.
- The same as above for converting caravan to a raft, people should actively contribute to building/converting it.
- The movement/maneuverability of the raft was not natural. You could stop 100% in the water with no momentum, you could accelerate to 100% in no time. Perhaps some physics there that could interplay with wind and water movement.
- Would be nice to see the wind moving the sails as they didn't move at all.
- Perhaps some slight visual feedback when the boat hits the shorelines (or runs into a rock ;P).
- Is the raft too slow or are people swimming too fast? I can't tell, but I think it may be people swimming too fast.
- Is there a reasonable way to assault a raft? It seems relatively easy to just sail away from attackers. Perhaps a way to slow it by damaging sails or perhaps assault rafts.
- More people / crates should make the boat slower. Perhaps unless people "row" the boat. The rowing would be particular interesting if it was a day with no wind nor much water current, which would tie into the weather system.
The PVP:
- Looked fun, but was hard to tell what was happening as this was a zerg fest. It seemed like people were not taking much damage, but that is just balancing which will be worked on in the future.
- The lightning balls seem almost useless in PVP, as they are so easy to dodge (and don't do much damage, but that's just TDB balancing). They are also HUGE, a little distracting.
General concerns/questions:
- Someone asked this above, but what is the advantage of 1 caravan with 11 player guards vs 12 players using inventory to transport goods? Seems like you could just do that and it would be much safer. I'm sure there is some point of diminishing returns for X defenders vs X player inventories, but I'm not sure how many people is "optimal".
- What is preventing "highwaymen" from just camping close to the entrance of a town/city with a giant zerg, zerging down a caravan, then just selling all the items to black market? Is there concern that this whole system will result in players essentially "camping" the entrance to towns?
- This demonstration shows that having more people = winning the day. I'm not necessarily against that or for it, as long as it doesn't come down to "Highwaymen always win" or "Caravan defenders always win". Will there be any protections against people consistently "zerging" either side, causing the other side to not be fun anymore? In this case, it almost seems to turn into a faction based game mode, which comes with its own set of issues.
- The stealth "looked" cool from the stealthed players perspective. How does that look from the enemies perspective? Are you completely invisible? Un-targetable?
- Why are candles important to transport? xD
Saw a lot of great things on the stream and was good to see some more small scale pvp going on as well!
TTK is going in the right direction from what I was seeing and expecting in more balanced situations. Something i feel some people mentioning about ttk being low but also i feel being mixed with their expectation of standing still and just tanking hits to do their rotation and not factoring mobility.
I can understand a view point of dying instantly if attacked by 5 people why it might make some frustrated but if you are out numbered that isn't a great situation for that player. Rather than being able to take tons of dmg I feel to stop frustration and increase skill ceiling it is important for players to have mobility tools (though not spamable) to help reposition, protect themselves, and be able to get out of situations they are in without being stuck and blown up.
Things I'm looking forward to seeing, testing and providing feedback when I can actually play it myself and get a feel for it directly.
netrimosMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
What about force multiplier vehicles that can support a caravan, like a mobile catapult capable of massive AOE as a balancing force against 'zerging bandits
Here's something I posted on Xillin's vid about risk v reward for attackers and defenders and the risk skew towards defenders.
I've said it previously, there needs to be contracts for mercs (which also define the rewards & penalties) between the mercs & the caravan owner. Major penalties involved for breaking the contract like loss of node reputation etc, substantial bonuses for successful completion to make turning on the caravan owner unprofitable.
You turn up with your defending raid group, caravan owner offers the contract which shows the standard 3-5% (section 2A) take on sales & gold/glint or gold+glint bonus for completion, click accept and your raid group is transferred to the caravan owner.
Anyone joining to defend on the spur of them moment has to accept the current contract by default but gets a standard fee (only 10% of above contract fee as defined in section 2A subsection C 😄 because the action is its own reward) & no bonuses as defined in the contract.
When the goods are sold players named on that contact get auto-payed on sale of the goods. Or in the case of non-profit sharing contract (i.e., you're moving goods between nodes for strategic reasons) just a flat gold/glint fee which the carvan owner defines in the contract.
Coding wise it wouldn't be a huge task IMHO, you have a contract item in your inventory (scribe skill tree?), right click, define the parameters of the contract on the screen, put in the raid leaders name, click Share, raid leader reads clicks accept, the contract is now attached to your immediate next caravan deployment.
Or for payment, on successful completion of the contact each defender gets a Cert you can turn in at the node for your payment. That way they are ensured of being paid. If the raid party members start leaving the defense there would need to be a threshold that nullfies the contract with a penalty, ie if they all start leaving half way there to join any attackers.
Now for Risk v Reward for the attackers, not every nearby node is going to have a black market available to sell those stolen goods at, you might have a long run to get to a node with one, a lot can happen in that time. If you are attacking there could be an XP debt + node reputation loss or something like that if you fail to destroy the caravan.
But I agree after alpha 2 testing over the next 'year'? will show the holes clearly and the steps needed to be taken to define the risk for attackers.
I really enjoyed the caravan stream, here are my thoughts:
- I like that what types of materials stored on the caravan can effect it's appearance to some degree.
- Your overall feel of vulnerability throughout the journey makes it very exiting!
- I think that there should be visual damage to a caravan as it's health decreases at various stages (although its alpha so maybe you have that planned).
- I'm not sure what I think about being able to summon a caravan to pick up what you have stolen. Should you have a caravan of your own you have brought to an ambush site? Should you have to build something on the spot with your own resources? Both of these would make things difficult and at the end of the day we are still playing a game, and those options may not be fun so you may have made the best choice.
- While it's convenient, I'm not sure I like how you can just vacuum up all the crates from the floor with an ability from your caravan as it breaks immersion. I think the players should have to load the crates on themselves, just make the pacing realistic.
- I like how you have to have specific vendors you can't find everywhere to buy your stolen goods as it makes what you have taken more unique.
- Changing into a raft and back again was great! It really shows the adaptability of the caravans across different types of terrain.
- If you had to build a caravan structure on site with your own resources you could have multiple players contribute and the more that do the faster it goes (and put a cap on the speed). This could work with raft conversion, its costs a few resources and you can make it go quickly with enough people.
- Seeing a raft sail that has its speed effected to some degree by water flow was great to see. The water ripples looks beautiful.
- I don't like how long resources will take to unpack, releasing the resources into the market shouldn't take several days. Maybe 24 hours max? We are still playing a game and this will probably slow it's resource system down.
- I like the black market system and how it's a choice upgrade. Players will have to learn what nodes have this and which ones don't so they know where to go. Maybe taking stolen goods to the wrong node might get you punished if a justice choice upgrade is made at a different market. That way stolen goods brough there which be sold like the black market but will go to the nodes bank instead of to the player (and maybe a small fixed fine to them too).
- Maybe I will get used to it when I play it in A2 but I still find the inventory UI to be a bit much, I don't think there should be so many different panels open.
People talking about the TTK but it's not even alpha 2 yet... Classes aren't balanced and we don't have all of them guys. They will balance everything in betas I'm sure.
Steven said there would be no deep draft boats (ie seagoing vessels) on rivers and lakes on the stream. That seems fair.
I'd love it if there were smaller boats you could build, ie barges (that can maybe also carry goods & have to convert to caravan to finish), kayaks + canoes so one or two people (or 5 people in a long canoe) could use the rivers to travel about, would be great for strategic transfer of players around the map for whichever scenario
the reward for this needs to be big. like not just gold, it needs to be connected to other systems in the game in a big way. maybe node growth, or area events, or the opening of a dungeon or summoning of big raidbosses. something like that. and there needs to be a way to make clear to people in the area when and where they can expect caravans to be out there to be found.
otherwise, good luck getting people to group up en-masse to experience this content in these numbers. if its just a gold reward your gonna see this go the way the archeage private server went, where you got 3 people trying to run 40 trade packs through some glitched out or largely abandoned section of the map, and no where else, with no one else. and the pvps will be small and unrewarding.
Comments
Feedback: (my assumption: defense and attack are events that encourage randoms nearby to join) if items are picked up and sold by individual players I don't see a world where a group attacks a caravan and ever gives anything of value to the people that helped. Only way I see current system working is if everything picked up is a quest item and once all quest items are turned in everyone gets a % based off helping (time next to cart, dmg done/taken from other side)
Game is looking to be shaping up great its to early to talk about balance so I couldn't have asked for more then this Keep up the great work.
- Caravan hitbox was only on the horses, I think it should also include the "cargo", even Dred tried to hit these, but it didn't work,
- people either swim too fast or raft float too slow. I feel that raft should take longer to actually construct and deconstruct, but in order to chase raft you have to mount up on water or on land if you go down the stream. It would be a reward for spending lots of time in place while raft is building/deconstructing. Now it was swimming the same speed as everyone and it looked a bit comical to see 30 ppl swim aorund it instead of want to jump on the raft
- I would actually love to see damage for hitting the rocks or something too, I don't know if you plan to implement somehting like that,
- if it works as an event to join defenders/attackers I hope you will try to implement some kind of system like other MMO's tried where you get some buffs for being in the "losing" side in terms of some % haste or damage reduction % or even loot/xp/reputation/currency buff so we will see a bit more balanced fights from time to time not just one sided stomps,
- I know that it is Alpha 2 and not yet finished product, but I highly hope you won't forget about immersion and you will add more useless NPC's that work on farms/walk around in cities or even do some things like collecting flowers (not really, but just some animations that they acutally do) around the town aswell, I know that you presented us kinda similiar thing in node update, but it wasn't very good yet so I hope you won't forget to upgrade it with more time
- people looks too "glasscannon" but I bet it is not a phase where you fix damage and healing yet.
- I think that events like these should also "lure" or spawn every now and then some PvE monsters so if we won't find any opponents in terms of pvp we won't just afk navigate from point A to point B or just give a chance to spawn nearby event that will award us some bonus for our caravan or progression but won't be accessible by our caravan and we will have to climb up somewhere in order to grab it and finish small event with part of the caravan group. It would make it much more complex and interesting also in terms of PvE, remember that not every time we will face enemies in "player" form.
Overall stream was very good, animations of raft were nice, there wasn't too many issues with lags or spikes during fights, spells become a little bit more clean, but mage still looks a bit too flashy when you get 10 ball lightnings on the screen with some other frost/fire/lightning spells.
* Regarding TTK... - Personally, I am not as concerned as many others regarding the TTK, especially not if it is as stated that it is within the "faster but acceptable" reach. 6 rangers all using snipe at the same time on the same target - that has no protective buffs - seems like a reasonable kill to me considering that Steven was level 25 and that these rangers were set up in ideal cirumstance (aka, they were ambushing). After that, HP bars were moving much slower - and I imagine they will move even slower when bard with buffs arrive - as combat broke out. Steven's group had almost double the player count, yet I'd say that the other group stood their ground quite well (especially considering Steven's zerg had the jump on them). I am not sure if they had a proper target caller on their side - but it certainly felt more balanced than I personally expected.
* The caravan movement... - The movement speed just about fine, imo. Unless there will be some more risk associated with attacking, I feel like "peeling off" the caravan while having it racing away should be a viable tactic in order to not completely doom the position as caravan defenders. Having these risky situations in the form of having to stop to build rafts and then convert it back to cart is enough, in my opinion. That said, I would love to see other tactics becoming an option through the caravan speccing; bunkering down with the caravan as a buffing beacon to encourage confrontation could be something! Of course, a bit work on the start/stop and acceleration would be amazing! I'd recommend taking a look on GW2's rafts and mounts in this regard.
* Regarding the scenery - it was beautiful. The water, the lighting, the area.... You guys stated that they were "work in progress" but holy smokes - Verra is beautiful! I cannot wait to see this live!
* The visuals during the fight... looked aboslutely fine to me! You could clearly tell which spells were being cast, and from where. I can agree that the lightning balls looked a bit out of place - but at least they were easy to spot! :']
As for concerns, I'll just echo the ones I'd like the team to keep an eye at:
* Risk for attackers - will there be any risk at all, apart from having to potentially put another caravan up?
* Rewarding players for their efforts - I'd love to see a more efficient way of doing this than singular trades with each player.
* Destroyed caravans - having the loot laying there and trust that players - especially puggies - won't mess that up for each other feels... naive. I feel like most people will only entrust anything related to caravans to their own guilds in order to avoid "newbies" (that have not learned the caravan system) and griefers (that just want to watch the world burn) - so I would love to see a less complicated (?) system that would encourage people to make new friends and/or recruit outside help. Or at least a system that does not allow one player to screw so many people over!
Good preview overall, but I would love to instead of summon a caravan we should build it in the open so it does not break inmersion.
What excites you about playing and interacting with other players and the Caravan System?
Make alot of gold by doing this with my friends. since we are more of pvp frogs.
Is there anything in particular you’re excited or concerned about regarding what was shown with the Caravan PvP Preview?
I am excited to see more difficult and challenging roads of verra. Weather would be something cool too like a storm event.
Are there similar systems you’ve seen in other games that you like or dislike? If so, please explain!
No , for me this is the first time.
one side didnt realy have any healers which would extend the TTK like steven group was pretty much unkilable it seem compared to the other side but that was due to the other side getting less to 0 healers in comparison :P
1.Every crate in caravan is very heavy, contains more cargo than a single player can carry. Maybe a single player with mount could carry it. This way it would be always better to use caravan with guards than just a group of mounted players running between towns. Large quantity of goods in single crate would also explaint long reloading time.
2.When new caravan is summoned it is summoned with skeleton crew (caravan is not only a horse and driver) that load „reclaimed” cargo to it instead of teleporting it. Players can help with that to speed the process but every small crate need 2 players, medium 3, big 4 and so on (maybe even automatic animation that can be broken by moving of character; mages can use telekinesis, summoner pets and other just hands; warriors can be count as 2 players).
3.Summoned caravan arrives not completed. It should be fast version of caravan, just a frame of it with mounts and skeleton crew. On site the crew would bild it up and modify it / rig it accordingly. Players could speed the process (maybe under fire, deciding to join the fight or to join the construction). There could be few kinds of starting fast caravan / crews / rigs-upgreades and so on.
4.Opening the crate on field destroyes or pollutes most of the cargo. There should be cler warning and clear indicator that thief reclaimed only a small portion of cargo. This way summoning a new caravan if way more profitable.
5.Skeleton crew should build the raft, players should be ablo to help.
6.Building raft or summoned caravan should require some materials. You should have them with the sceleton crew but players speeding up the building should use their own materials (from inventory or they can gather them from forest or from destroyed caravan or defense structrure)
7.There are defensce strutures to be build. For ambushers to block or slow the caravan. For defenders to hide from part of atacking damage during repaires or rafting or summoning new caravan, maybe healing objects and so on. Maybe some light sige equipment: small balista, roman scorpio or magical barier generator like mages bubble but little larger.
8.There must be a way to slow or even stop the caravan. Damaged caravan should be stoped before destroyed but it should be posible for players to repair it (maybe only crafters and skeleton crew - crew outside of caravan might be killed maybe). Imagine crafters standing on running caravan and repairing it under constant fire and beeing healed by healers fighting around - glorious.
Sorry for my english.
One more thing. Why a random player should join attacking or defending the caravan. Looting crates after destroing a caravan should not be to profitable (for attackers is a potencial lost of part of goods). Helping the caravan normaly gives nothing (unless there is loot from killed players). There should be bounty system. Loot chest founded by atackers and other chest by defenders. When You enter event there should be a massege: attackers placed a bounty for helping atack the caravan and defenders placed a reward for helping defend it. It might be gold, some cargo or other items. With gold its siplm: „attackers placed a bounty for helping atack the caravan 1000 gold”. For other stuff: „attackers placed a bounty for helping atack the caravan - silver chest with goods”. bounty or reward is displyed at the end of the event and split acording to contribution/ random or other system.
2. TTK was hard to see, the size difference between the 2 groups was too big, personally I prefer a TTK between 30s to 1m in a 1 on 1.
3. I know Steven mentioned some time ago a loss of rank or progression related to some “bandit guild,” but as it stands now, merchants lose time, materials/money, and the vehicle, while the bandits have almost no risk associated to failing an attack other than this unknown rank/progression and a small amount of time compared to what time merchants lose. This needs to be tested and revised, as it stands now being a bandit seems more enticing than being a merchant.
4. Make the next PVP showcase balanced so we can give proper feedback on it.
Great idea.
Camouflaged rangers were not invisible, you could see their blurred outlines when they stood at the top of the mountain (and that was awesome!!!) so the solution to not getting sniped to death is: Pay attention to your surroundings!
That said, the plan is to have rangers with detection abilities, so the counter to being ambushed by rangers will probably be to have your own ranger scout for threats!
I'd love to see the tank get a bulwark anti/projektilen ability as that is an amazing power fantasy, BUT.... After playing GW2 I am painfully aware of that anti-projectile abilities just results in people stacking AoE classes and boycott rangers in group PvP. :[ I hope IS managed to balance things out!
The game still looks too flashy, especially in massive PvP. This is something that affect the gameplay in several ways, but also how the whole scene looks.
Use More Muted Color Palette for Effects: Using less saturated or darker colors for skill effects can reduce visual fatigue and make it easier for players to focus on strategy and gameplay mechanics without distractions. This also helps ensure that special effects do not dominate the visual scene, especially in massive combat situations where many players are using abilities simultaneously.
Visual Differentiation by Class: Limiting the more flashy and colorful visual effects to specific classes, like mages or other magical classes, can add a layer of visual strategy, allowing players to quickly identify the type of threat or support a particular class might be providing on the battlefield. For non-magical classes, such as archers, effects could be more subtle or realistic, focusing on showcasing the skill without overwhelming the scene. IMHO, skills like that flashy green arrow-machine gun from the Archer is too much, also it looks more like a Star Wars blaster than a medieval set.
Optimization of Effects for Massive PvP: Consider optimizing effects in massive PvP situations, possibly with a setting that allows players to adjust the intensity or visibility of certain visual effects. This could include options to simplify skill effects in high-player combat situations, reducing the number of flashes, particles, and other graphical elements that can make the action hard to follow.
Visual Feedback and Gameplay: While aesthetics are important, it is crucial that any adjustments to visual effects do not compromise players' ability to read the game and react appropriately. Each skill should have a clear visual indicator of its area of effect, casting time, and immediate impact, so players can make informed decisions in the heat of the moment.
Implementing these changes will require a careful balance between aesthetics, functionality, and accessibility. It would be beneficial for the development team to collect more community feedback and conduct iterative testing to find the right balance that satisfies most players. This feedback and adjustment process is crucial for creating a gaming experience that is both visually appealing and solidly playable.
One of the first concerns I have with this system is what is to prevent it from getting zerged down? In new world we saw unfortunate development where mega companies would dominate the open world by zerging. and over time all the good players of opposing factions would instead join the top companies instead of fighting against them. This eventually lead to a monopoly that was unable to contest and it became extremely toxic and unfun.
Another question I have is. How do you identify where the caravan is headed? Can I grief my own node by stealing the supplies intended to go towards progressing my own node and take all that profit for myself? Perhaps this is intended and you rely on the players to create the equilibrium? (Something I am not necessarily against tbh.)
Feedback about the raft conversion. I really think this mechanic is very cool. But I think it should require players to interact with the raft station in order to progress the building of the raft. This creates a more intense and engaging encounter. Especially when being attacked. As some people will have to build while others protect those who are building.
Other than that I think it is mostly looking very good so far. I am super excited to experience it for myself in Q3 ;D
Excited! Looked awesome. It’s a great start. Obviously a lot needs to go through balance, and you set it up to make sure you won for demonstration purposes. TTK was a bit quick, caravan a bit squishy and there were numerous obvious bugs that I am sure the team is all over. But the mechanics, the gameplay has so much potential. Very exciting and exceeded my expectations.
What excites you about playing and interacting with other players and the Caravan System?
First the whole conversation that occurred was great. Scouts get scouting, tanks up front, that was great. The flow was great as well. The rangers on the cliff in camo with the opening salvo, then everyone running down the hill… super exciting. There is an openness to strategy that will occur in game with tons of people playing.
Overall, this ends up being a key element in world PvP as you have described. I got it before when it was described years ago, but now I understand what a huge piece it will be.
Is there anything in particular you’re excited or concerned about regarding what was shown with the Caravan PvP Preview?
Excitement described above.
Concerned a bit about a couple of things.
First is the “swapping” of cargo from specific to generic loot. If my caravan is initially destroyed and captured, then we rally and recapture the caravan, do I just get generic loot or do I get my original cargo back? If I had refined some frozen ore from the far reaches of Verra and was shipping to a better place to turn that into a top tier sword, then the value of the generic loot will likely be far below its actual time value. How will this be addressed? If I get generic loot that is potentially worth 1/10th of the original value, then my incentive to rally is reduce to just revenge. Also, next time I will be strongly evaluating the difference of just refining in node…reducing the number of caravans available to attack.
Second concern is scaling and risk vs reward. The whole event looked super fun. I will likely be spending an inordinate amount of time hunting caravans just for the fun of it, regardless of how much I get from it. Death on its own seems like a low risk. From the opposite side, moving high value goods in a caravan seems high risk, depending directly on rarity and time commitment. The reward there is that moving it gives me a boost in price or perhaps the ability to transform into something better(thus more valuable). Balancing things like TTK is relatively straightforward, numerical adjustments. Balancing human emotions like wanting to destroy caravans vs the value that a caravan trip represents is a whole different beast. How do you balance that to have enough caravans to be able to be attacked while making it safe enough so you don’t lose 50 hours of gameplay from gathering and refining in a single 20min trip? There was one point where you discussed “fake” loot. That will be a key element I think. Discussing that more later will be great.
Are there similar systems you’ve seen in other games that you like or dislike? If so, please explain!
Eve online is the first thing that comes to mind. I played for a bit, the entry curve was way too steep because existing players had such a huge advantage.
Other stuff:
Getting players together and distributing rewards at the end seems important and was hinted at but not fully discussed. If I have a caravan and I want it protected, it would be great to hire a guild to protect it… maybe not my own. If they protect it and it gets to the other node, then they get a chit that can be turned into a vendor where I put some cash in escrow for the transaction for example. If it doesn’t arrive, then I get my protection money back. It gets complicated though, because the base value of the generic goods needs to be low enough so that it doesn’t dwarf the protection costs. Also, like others have said, if you destroy a caravan, there needs to be a transparent quick way to trade. I don’t want to make 12 individual trade requests and have to keep track of who was in the raid and who did what…
Thank you again for being open about this. It’s fantastic work and really is setting a new standard for game development. You should all be proud of what you have made and excited for alpha2.
Recommends improvements:
1. Having players manual load the caravan and off load it.
2. Having players build the caravan and raft. Speed up the process if more help.
3. Having players row the caravan.
This will add the following to the game
1. Participation and include players. So they are not just sitting around waiting. Feel more part of the event and world.
2. Risk vs reward. Players can choose to stand watch and protect or speed up the process.
3. Risk vs reward. Players can choose to give material to speed up the process or not loose material but process is slower.
Question / addition options
1. Is it possible to add a way other than guild spy’s to see caravans moving about?
- maybe a node upgrade for spy’s / surveillance pinging a caravan coming up soon? Or deployed?
- or some kind of addition spec, how there are map specs, or crafters. Maybe something for trackers to be notified when a caravan is deployed, near by etc.
2. Is there spells to increase raft speed also?
3. Is there skill trees or perks of some kind to track down caravans. Like a tracker perk.
They mentioned in the live stream a lot of the work is not done for effects directly.
I want to emphasize that the content in the video was good; unfortunately I have nothing positive to say as far as logistics and demgraphics are concerned. Looks like there will be more people wanting to pillage a caravan, than caravans to pillage. Shortage of caravans. Whole thing is lopsided.
But instead of me just going and on and on with game mechics, Instead maybe Ashes of Creation should go take a look at successful Open world PvP that offer similar content and see how it works in those games.
For example Eve online. One of the things that is not so obvious is that the game itself acts like a filter; it gets all the people that are interested in that type of open world PvP content together. You log in and few minutes later your in your desired content. If here are not enough caravans In AoC then palyer may have to hunt for caravans for a while and as soon as the event is completeint player will want to do more caravans, so that they can experience the A++ PvP event again.
Right now Caravans is a pvp local event. I am just going to ask the Ashes of Creation a question. Let say the caravan PvP experience is an A++ Experience. And every pvper is very eager to pillage caravans. How is Intrepid Studios going to accomadate those PvPer. You might say. well it is up to the players. Yes I get that, but if there are not enough caravans to pillage they might just go get a similar experience in another game that is a B minus minus exérience but at least they get to experience it.
Another thing ot consider reward for caravans is Gold so goes back to that Gold per hour thing vs the fun. In Open world pvp game reward usually related to becoming better PvPer. (better gear). I mean I could just go on and on and on, but might be better for Ashes of Creation to analyze very carefully how this type of gamplay is successful in an openworld PvP game.
Same thing foes for Nodes and possibly Bounter Hunter system.
- TTK is insanely low, the initial idea for this to be around 30s-60s is much more attractive for massive PvP fights
- It would be good to have a way to identify Tanks and Healers of your group using an icon or something like this, it would be really helpful during a big raid PvP.
- Hiding total amount of HP is fine, although, you guys need to be careful when adding finishing moves to classes... in case you do add them, you need to make sure it's % based and not on HP numeric amount.
- Would be nice if people had to interact to convert caravans into rafts or the other way around and also, have some sort of progression bar so people have an idea of time necessary for the convertion.
The caravan itself:
- Visual and auditory feedback needed when you hit the caravan. And the hitbox should not just be the horses. I saw a warrior in the back swinging a sword at the caravan but there was little to not feedback at all that it was getting hit.
- Animation and audio feedback on the horses may need some TLC. Maybe it seemed that way because they were moving so slow when going uphill?
- The speed of the caravan when not under the speed boost ability is REALLY slow. I know terrain has an impact on it, which is really cool, but it was moving very very slow when going up the hill in middle of the battle.
- Have the caravan show signs of damage/gradual wear and tear. Perhaps tie this into a slowing debuff until it is "repaired". Having to dedicate some people to repairing vs combat would be an interesting strategic decision. On the flipside, having it fully repaired may grant some defensive buff, which causes the attackers to need to split damage between caravan and players.
- It seemed like you could easily outrun the combat with the caravan, effectively avoiding pvp entirely.
- The broken state of the caravan looked great. But the visuals of the crates magically appearing didn't look great.
- I would prefer people manually putting the crates onto a new caravan instead of the AoE pickup ability from the caravan driver.
- I don't like that you can magically summon a caravan. I think you either need to bring enough materials for a caravan and have people build it actively OR have a caravan in waiting to swoop in (which has an additional risk of being spotted). Something as simple as "hitting the frame with a hammer" will continue the construction along with the necessary material cost.
- Perhaps abilities from the caravan that can support the players around it?
The Raft
- I loved the appearance of the raft and the scaffolding, but the driver teleporting was a little jarring.
- The same as above for converting caravan to a raft, people should actively contribute to building/converting it.
- The movement/maneuverability of the raft was not natural. You could stop 100% in the water with no momentum, you could accelerate to 100% in no time. Perhaps some physics there that could interplay with wind and water movement.
- Would be nice to see the wind moving the sails as they didn't move at all.
- Perhaps some slight visual feedback when the boat hits the shorelines (or runs into a rock ;P).
- Is the raft too slow or are people swimming too fast? I can't tell, but I think it may be people swimming too fast.
- Is there a reasonable way to assault a raft? It seems relatively easy to just sail away from attackers. Perhaps a way to slow it by damaging sails or perhaps assault rafts.
- More people / crates should make the boat slower. Perhaps unless people "row" the boat. The rowing would be particular interesting if it was a day with no wind nor much water current, which would tie into the weather system.
The PVP:
- Looked fun, but was hard to tell what was happening as this was a zerg fest. It seemed like people were not taking much damage, but that is just balancing which will be worked on in the future.
- The lightning balls seem almost useless in PVP, as they are so easy to dodge (and don't do much damage, but that's just TDB balancing). They are also HUGE, a little distracting.
General concerns/questions:
- Someone asked this above, but what is the advantage of 1 caravan with 11 player guards vs 12 players using inventory to transport goods? Seems like you could just do that and it would be much safer. I'm sure there is some point of diminishing returns for X defenders vs X player inventories, but I'm not sure how many people is "optimal".
- What is preventing "highwaymen" from just camping close to the entrance of a town/city with a giant zerg, zerging down a caravan, then just selling all the items to black market? Is there concern that this whole system will result in players essentially "camping" the entrance to towns?
- This demonstration shows that having more people = winning the day. I'm not necessarily against that or for it, as long as it doesn't come down to "Highwaymen always win" or "Caravan defenders always win". Will there be any protections against people consistently "zerging" either side, causing the other side to not be fun anymore? In this case, it almost seems to turn into a faction based game mode, which comes with its own set of issues.
- The stealth "looked" cool from the stealthed players perspective. How does that look from the enemies perspective? Are you completely invisible? Un-targetable?
- Why are candles important to transport? xD
https://www.iflscience.com/a-floating-bog-island-blocks-a-bridge-in-chippewa-so-locals-move-it-with-boats-70611
TTK is going in the right direction from what I was seeing and expecting in more balanced situations. Something i feel some people mentioning about ttk being low but also i feel being mixed with their expectation of standing still and just tanking hits to do their rotation and not factoring mobility.
I can understand a view point of dying instantly if attacked by 5 people why it might make some frustrated but if you are out numbered that isn't a great situation for that player. Rather than being able to take tons of dmg I feel to stop frustration and increase skill ceiling it is important for players to have mobility tools (though not spamable) to help reposition, protect themselves, and be able to get out of situations they are in without being stuck and blown up.
Things I'm looking forward to seeing, testing and providing feedback when I can actually play it myself and get a feel for it directly.
I've said it previously, there needs to be contracts for mercs (which also define the rewards & penalties) between the mercs & the caravan owner. Major penalties involved for breaking the contract like loss of node reputation etc, substantial bonuses for successful completion to make turning on the caravan owner unprofitable.
You turn up with your defending raid group, caravan owner offers the contract which shows the standard 3-5% (section 2A) take on sales & gold/glint or gold+glint bonus for completion, click accept and your raid group is transferred to the caravan owner.
Anyone joining to defend on the spur of them moment has to accept the current contract by default but gets a standard fee (only 10% of above contract fee as defined in section 2A subsection C 😄 because the action is its own reward) & no bonuses as defined in the contract.
When the goods are sold players named on that contact get auto-payed on sale of the goods. Or in the case of non-profit sharing contract (i.e., you're moving goods between nodes for strategic reasons) just a flat gold/glint fee which the carvan owner defines in the contract.
Coding wise it wouldn't be a huge task IMHO, you have a contract item in your inventory (scribe skill tree?), right click, define the parameters of the contract on the screen, put in the raid leaders name, click Share, raid leader reads clicks accept, the contract is now attached to your immediate next caravan deployment.
Or for payment, on successful completion of the contact each defender gets a Cert you can turn in at the node for your payment. That way they are ensured of being paid. If the raid party members start leaving the defense there would need to be a threshold that nullfies the contract with a penalty, ie if they all start leaving half way there to join any attackers.
Now for Risk v Reward for the attackers, not every nearby node is going to have a black market available to sell those stolen goods at, you might have a long run to get to a node with one, a lot can happen in that time. If you are attacking there could be an XP debt + node reputation loss or something like that if you fail to destroy the caravan.
But I agree after alpha 2 testing over the next 'year'? will show the holes clearly and the steps needed to be taken to define the risk for attackers.
- I like that what types of materials stored on the caravan can effect it's appearance to some degree.
- Your overall feel of vulnerability throughout the journey makes it very exiting!
- I think that there should be visual damage to a caravan as it's health decreases at various stages (although its alpha so maybe you have that planned).
- I'm not sure what I think about being able to summon a caravan to pick up what you have stolen. Should you have a caravan of your own you have brought to an ambush site? Should you have to build something on the spot with your own resources? Both of these would make things difficult and at the end of the day we are still playing a game, and those options may not be fun so you may have made the best choice.
- While it's convenient, I'm not sure I like how you can just vacuum up all the crates from the floor with an ability from your caravan as it breaks immersion. I think the players should have to load the crates on themselves, just make the pacing realistic.
- I like how you have to have specific vendors you can't find everywhere to buy your stolen goods as it makes what you have taken more unique.
- Changing into a raft and back again was great! It really shows the adaptability of the caravans across different types of terrain.
- If you had to build a caravan structure on site with your own resources you could have multiple players contribute and the more that do the faster it goes (and put a cap on the speed). This could work with raft conversion, its costs a few resources and you can make it go quickly with enough people.
- Seeing a raft sail that has its speed effected to some degree by water flow was great to see. The water ripples looks beautiful.
- I don't like how long resources will take to unpack, releasing the resources into the market shouldn't take several days. Maybe 24 hours max? We are still playing a game and this will probably slow it's resource system down.
- I like the black market system and how it's a choice upgrade. Players will have to learn what nodes have this and which ones don't so they know where to go. Maybe taking stolen goods to the wrong node might get you punished if a justice choice upgrade is made at a different market. That way stolen goods brough there which be sold like the black market but will go to the nodes bank instead of to the player (and maybe a small fixed fine to them too).
- Maybe I will get used to it when I play it in A2 but I still find the inventory UI to be a bit much, I don't think there should be so many different panels open.
Buut, I agree that the TTK should be higher.
I'd love it if there were smaller boats you could build, ie barges (that can maybe also carry goods & have to convert to caravan to finish), kayaks + canoes so one or two people (or 5 people in a long canoe) could use the rivers to travel about, would be great for strategic transfer of players around the map for whichever scenario
otherwise, good luck getting people to group up en-masse to experience this content in these numbers. if its just a gold reward your gonna see this go the way the archeage private server went, where you got 3 people trying to run 40 trade packs through some glitched out or largely abandoned section of the map, and no where else, with no one else. and the pvps will be small and unrewarding.
- The caravan should be sent forth by a players pet that has training similar to a homing pigeon
- Should be tied to the animal husbandry system for better versions
- Messenger pets should be able to be killed and have a glow or trail
- Messages the pet was carrying can be read by enemies if slain
Also if possible it would be way better if the caravan was seen in world arriving instead of popping in.