The mechanics and the event was great, i really see the potential to be a fun and great game. But also there are elements that definitely need to be worked on:
First the heath bar shouldn't be visible above people's heads, it takes a lot of space and it makes the visibility and the game experience worse (much, better not to know how much hp your opponent has left during the fight, better tactics can be used see e.g. lineage 2). The health of the caravan should also be determined by visual feedback
The boat was turning too fast (or at least was very sensitive), I think the degree of this should change depending on its speed ( if faster the boat turns more slowly or depend on your skills --> utility skills idea maybe?)
Do not spawn objects immediately (carawan, boxes drop), have some kind of transition or link to an activity to do it (carry, tree cutting, tinkering etc.). In this way you can spawn faster if more people do it --> it strengthens the team --> more people feel that it makes sense to be there.
Maybe worth to condiser some additional defense mechanics to improve the odds for smaller groups against a large zergs/extreme tactics. For example, if the outnumber is 2x or more, you can:
a.) activate a defensive/healing buff for a short time,
b.) mass root your opponents
c.) summon a weak miniboss to assist your team with support skills
d.) put cannons on the caravan to sit behind, etc.
But there are probably better ideas.
Tanks have an option to have a bit wider but weaker shield wall (or let it be an option for more tanks to cast a group skill for that) to counter range skirmishes (bows and range spells).
i know that the lighting ball effect is just a placeholder, but please do something about it because it really spoils the overall look of the fight(its looks too regular). Just dont show the sharp edge of the sphere, thats all. I think the mechanics and the realization are good, just need to improve the effects:
Apart from the above, I think it will be superb! Keep up the good work!
Thx starkky!
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shakaconMember, Phoenix Initiative, Royalty, Kickstarter, Alpha One
The Caravan system looks like loads of fun! I look forward to it...provided the reward is good enough to take a chance on the risk (because I will never be an attacker unless I am trying to get my own stuff back or to help a friend retrieve their stolen goods). Finding that balance so caravans are run frequently is important. Below are some thoughts I had that might help that happen.
In order for the caravan system to work (meaning you have enough people on both sides who want to run, defend, and attack caravans) you have to find a certain level of balance in order for the system to work.
First off, whenever a caravan is attacked and destroyed, I feel those goods should be marked in the game as stolen whether they break open the crate to take the items out or they leave the crates intact and the attackers drive their own caravan over the crates to pick them up like Steven did on the livestream. The crates his caravan picked up should definitely be marked as stolen goods in the system because he and his attackers stole them from the merchants. ;p
Now for the rest.
1) Attackers stay as is for caravan runs.
2) As long as there are no stolen goods in the shipment, the caravan runner receives bonus exp during a caravan run - so they earn bonus exp on every attacker killed by the defenders and on the successful turn in.
3) As long as there are no stolen goods in the shipment, the caravan runner earns caravan running skill points for each run whether the run is successful or not - just the amount of skill points earned changes based on the distance traveled during the run (when it is destroyed or delivered).
4) As long as there are no stolen goods in the shipment, each defender earns bonus exp for every attacker the group kills during the caravan run and a big exp reward for a successful run.
5) Caravan runs that contain any stolen goods (whether it's from a caravan attackers looted or that PVPers out in the world stole from their victims, or stuff that was pickpocketed by thieves) will not have the ability to to move their caravan quickly and, instead, the caravan will travel 2x slower than a normal caravan, defenders will only receive regular exp (no bonus exp), the caravan runner (owner of the caravan) will only receive regular exp (no bonus exp) and caravan runners will only receive regular caravan running skill points (no bonus exp). Also, the quest offering will notify all potential Defenders and Attackers that the caravan contains stolen goods with the message where they choose to accept the quest as a defender or attacker.
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shakaconMember, Phoenix Initiative, Royalty, Kickstarter, Alpha One
SIDE NOTE:
Oh, one suggestion...check out the rafts and boats in Valheim...they did a nice job of immersing you in the feel of running rafts and boats in the water currents...
After thinking about this for a while now I think I have more celerity about how this all supposed to work and the goals of the system
Caravans are suppose to almost be the blood of the world(get people out so the world doesn't feel empty and give a reason for conflict) there is risk in bringing one out but also profit for success.
I think the current implementations can use some easy tweaks that would drastically help the health of the game the most important part of this game is nodes and needing to belong and help evolve your home and I think having a caravan show the node the owner is from(ether an icon, name of node in its name, or simply the name being ally color coded) would help in many ways. Another simple thing is getting home node rep or currency for protecting A caravan from one of your own and loosing some attacking it.
This would do a few things
1) risk vs reward. the farther from your home node you go the more risk but also if bring things that you cant get local the more the items will be worth.
2)community. this would naturally encourage the node to work together and build friendships.
3)meta of node vs node/world stage. if there's a nearby node competing to upgrade first and lock your node out you can now call on your whole node to attack them to stop there progress and these things can easily escalate into full wars.
4)it lets solo players feel they can do both sides of the attack and defending of caravans instead of only being a bandit type player or only protecting depending on there personality.
There are some other things that can done as well such as letting the mayor make temporary alliances that show caravans of another node as allies to prevent it from being too oppressive. I'm not super worried about it being impossible to move a caravan if a node really needs something a big train of caravans with a 100 people running around them isn't likely to give nodes time to assemble there own mass group of players to loot it in the short time between getting seen and arriving safely although smaller groups might have some difficulty might need to make the safe zone entering a node much bigger and add lore that NPC's hate seeing a caravan attacked so you need to do it far from the city.
Personally, I believe the limitations in place are perfect; they encourage players in a PvP-oriented world to engage with the content rather than teleporting everywhere to avoid travel dangers.
Adding fast traveling doesn't necessarily reduce the travel dangers. In Archeage for example,
the portals opened by players remain opened for a whole 30-60 seconds(+ long casting time); exposing their own location because it shows the name of the destination above the portal, and they can be used by the enemy chasing them, or used as a 200IQ bait. It has more play potential than a plain hold W chase or whatever. The destinations for the teleport are limited, so mounts are still important.
I don't think you're among the vocal minority judging by posts like [Fast Travel & Mounts], I just wanted to express my dislike regardless about the idea of holding W for +10 minutes riding from point A to B over and over every single time that it becomes a large portion of the gameplay, leading to an unproductive day, which doesn't feel good.
Discussing the importance of nodes and the changing seasons of the world
That's a good point. Hmm well, we'll see if it's worth the sacrifice when the game is out.
I like the idea, but it should have a couple of things:
1. Very limited range, significantly lower than the range of a metropolis scientific node teleport.
2. High cooldown, like 10-15 minutes, obviously.
3. No archetype should have this, in my opinion. Only a single class should have that ability, and that is the Archwizard (mage+mage) and that only if he augments the mage's teleport with the teleportation augment. This would take away the mobility spell for combat, which would reduce your combat power a lot and replace it with a more group-focused utility skill that is very helpful to travel more safe and quicker.
4. Cooldown should be increased to 30 minutes to an hour if it turns out everybody makes an Archwizard alt just to use the teleport ability.
Personally, I believe the limitations in place are perfect; they encourage players in a PvP-oriented world to engage with the content rather than teleporting everywhere to avoid travel dangers.
Adding fast traveling doesn't necessarily reduce the travel dangers. In Archeage for example,
the portals opened by players remain opened for a whole 30-60 seconds(+ long casting time); exposing their own location because it shows the name of the destination above the portal, and they can be used by the enemy chasing them, or used as a 200IQ bait. It has more play potential than a plain hold W chase or whatever. The destinations for the teleport are limited, so mounts are still important.
I don't think you're among the vocal minority judging by posts like [Fast Travel & Mounts], I just wanted to express my dislike regardless about the idea of holding W for +10 minutes riding from point A to B over and over every single time that it becomes a large portion of the gameplay, leading to an unproductive day, which doesn't feel good.
Discussing the importance of nodes and the changing seasons of the world
That's a good point. Hmm well, we'll see if it's worth the sacrifice when the game is out.
I like the idea, but it should have a couple of things:
1. Very limited range, significantly lower than the range of a metropolis scientific node teleport.
2. High cooldown, like 10-15 minutes, obviously.
3. No archetype should have this, in my opinion. Only a single class should have that ability, and that is the Archwizard (mage+mage) and that only if he augments the mage's teleport with the teleportation augment. This would take away the mobility spell for combat, which would reduce your combat power a lot and replace it with a more group-focused utility skill that is very helpful to travel more safe and quicker.
4. Cooldown should be increased to 30 minutes to an hour if it turns out everybody makes an Archwizard alt just to use the teleport ability.
I feel this is slightly off topic for caravan feedback so I just wanted to add this has been done so there's a real world example already to look at. in Everquest pre plans of power druids and wizard's had port spells and would stand in towns selling fast travel.
So i watch the last video, looks really really innovative , some feedback of what i think its missing or needs improvement from my humble point of view.
- the spawning caravan looks really off putting, when calling the caravan to pick the robbed goods, an empty caravan should leave the nearest node (or maybe select which node to call the caravan from to secure it from enemy players) and the caravan will come automatically using normal pathing routes, a marker will appear for the leader of the group showing the caravan move in the map. Allow an option for a member of the group to take control of the empty caravan so a player can take a different route maybe to counter act an ambush from another bandit group.
- the caravan health should be able to be repaired with wood/iron from the environment (player start cutting trees right next to the caravan after a bandit attack to start repair it) or directly from players inventory, and any player from the group should have access to the repair mechanic.
- the caravan should display damage based on % missing health.. 30% damage (starts to burn, some planks start to fall , a wheel start to spin unevenly) 60% damage more fire, horses start to get nervous because of the fire, a wheel fells off.
- animation for when the caravan is destroy, cargo starts to fall from the caravan, a door opens from the backside revealing one big cargo box, etc.
- building the boat should require interaction from the players to complete, players must cut down trees and bring the wood to the structure, there should be points around the structure where players needs to interact while having wood on the inventory to start an woodwork animation for 6 seconds . (this will add incredible immersion without making it too much a of a chore)
- boat should be a bit slower with the possibility of having rowing spot for players to increase the speed of the boat .This option only sits the player , they dont need to press anything, each player will add speed in a % sum.
Side note from the combat/animation:
-The artistic design of spells are a bit all over the place , i think there is too much bright and distracting lights/colors in teamfights, its like everyone is using fireworks, Maybe some spells should look more grounded and physical to decrease the amount of visual chaos, when i watch the teamfight i could´nt figure out who was casting what at any point , in terms of spell casting everything felt too alike and lacks identity,
Did not see anything about small scale caravans of 2-5 people. That would be my prefered method of caravaning, not these giant zergs which are difficult to organize, and less fun to boot. Took a long time for that giant zerg to kill the caravan too, is it expected this is a 20v20-ish activity? How do 3 or 4 PKs take out a caravan? Are there safe and less profitable caravan trips?
Would like to see a lot more of the economic side of things. I hope that the selling of goods at the far end is automated for the most part (want to make gold from transport, not friends).
1. General Caravan System Discussion - How do you feel about the Caravan System, based on information shared during the January 2024 Development Update? What are you excited about and what concerns do you have?
Excited:
* System looks fun.
Concerns:
* Caravans becoming a solved optimization problem.
* Caravan capacity seems abysmally small. (I know its a WIP)
* Balance seems very delicate. Going to teeter between broken or useless.
Feedback:
* Important that components allow people to try different gameplans with their caravan, such as a fast and stealthy caravan, or a tanky support caravan, etc.
* Important that components dont break the bank, but still are impactful enough to be fun to have.
2. Caravan Attackers and Defenders - How do you feel about being a Caravan attacker? How do you feel about being a Caravan defender? How do incentives, such as progression paths specific to Caravan attackers and defenders, make you more or less excited about PvP around Caravans?
Excited:
* Being able to break crates and run as an attacker.
* Being adequately rewarded as a defender
Concerns:
* Defender progression shouldnt just be focused on the caravan or caravan driver.
* There is an obvious imbalance between attackers and defenders:
DEFENDERS:
CONS:
- have to bring the materials and can lose them (could be weeks worth of time investment)
- have to buy the caravans
- have to use resources on the components and can lose both the caravan and the components
- have the time commitment to slowly trek to another node
PROS:
- make money
- advance a nodes situation (mostly mayoral caravans though)
ATTACKERS:
CONS:
- "social risk" (which is less effective towards larger guilds)
PROS:
- can make a quick buck
- impeding enemies is already a success, even without any loot in return
- even if the original owners come back, they can only get 25% of the original loot, so counter attacking isnt even as rewarding as the original attacking
When you siege a node or castle, you need to use something that costs significant resources. That embodies risk vs reward. Attackers in the current system doesnt seem consistent with philosophy.
Feedback:
* Allow caravan owner to send a list of whoever attacks the caravan to be sent throughout the vassal network of the node the caravan was launched from. This would be real social risk.
* Allow caravan owners to set a reward for those who join the defenders side upon success of reaching destination.
3. Caravan Travel - How do you feel about the ways a Caravan moves through the world? What feedback do you have about Caravans traversing rivers?
Excited:
* Rivers with currents, and the possibility of other types of events causing unpredictability.
Concerns:
* What are you doing with the horse?
* Having to wait 2 - 5 minutes or however long, doing nothing, is extremely boring.
Feedback:
* When a new, empty caravan is summoned out in the open world, it should roll in like a ghost rather than just spawning on top of you.
* Seasons should cause changes with both land and river routes somehow.
* Rafts should come to a slow stop rather than an immediate stop.
4. Caravan Visuals - How do you feel about what we’re aspiring to do with the visual fidelity of all things related to Caravans? Examples include caravan, crate, and raft visuals.
Excited:
* Scaffolding being built during transition of caravan to raft and vice versa.
Concerns:
* Having trouble seeing how you can apply visual clarity to what a caravan is holding, and how valuable it is, especially with skins.
Feedback:
* Would like to be able to lift crates and move them slowly.
* Would like visual indicators as to the health of the caravan, instead of a direct health bar (could still have chunks like player health bars).
I don't think that the "focus" should not not be caravans. Maybe just a small "part" of it. But not the focus. Defending, and attacking caravans does have a small point of fun, but no one wants their caravans attacked relentlessly. I think the focus should be on more of "open world". NEVER ATTRACT ATTENTION TO ONE AND ONLY ONE ASPECT of the game. With Risk comes reward, but do not make a high risk endeavor revealed to all players. That is the appeal! You should never be aware of what you are attacking! It is the surprise! That yields the best failure! Or reward!
Interested and intrigued about some fresh and innovative content.
What excites you about playing and interacting with other players and the Caravan System?
Organic, player created content. The sense of adventure and discovery of potentially coming across a caravan in Verra, and contemplating helping defend or attack the caravan. A random, non-PVE determined event is exciting.
I also like the various risk reward elements of the preview.
Is there anything in particular you’re excited or concerned about regarding what was shown with the Caravan PvP Preview?
Excited by the ability to traverse both land and water. Not a concern, but I don't understand the consequences of attacking a caravan, while the consequences of transporting goods via caravan is losing them.
I would probably ask for large defender and attacker icons above the players. With all those animations, it looks difficult to understand who is who during the fight
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RisingLightMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
I know it was said that if the caravan is destroyed or respawns the loot will be dropped. My question what happens in the case of a character being disconnected? I understand if nothing happens if a caravan could log out and avoid losing the caravan and it’s goodies but if a player is genuinely dc’d that seems harsh. Could there be a system in place that if that occurs then could the caravan be continued by someone else in the party/raid/guild? So there’s still ownership over the caravan even if the original owner is forced off of server? Or what would happen if there is a server crash or server wide disruption what would happen to the caravan? Thank you for taking the time to read my thought. I love the game so far it looks amazing! Everyone is doing an awesome job! Make sure you take time to rest 👍🏻
I really liked the Caravan Preview, it was of course staged, but I could tell all the ways Players would use Scouts, Camouflage, line of sight, choke points and Ambushes to cause Havok on Caravan Goers!
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A few things I'd like to see added are:
1. If Bandits are using a Caravan to haul STOLEN Caravan Crates, this Bandit Caravan must be summoned by
firing a Flare Gun (or lighting a Firework) that leaves a smoke trail, and shoots up High into the air and
explodes into a large bright Firework display and a loud report that you can hear for a long ways.
This Flare/Firework shows the empty Bandit caravan where to travel to, and also draws immediate
attention to anyone in the area that Caravan Crates are currently ON the ground, and going to be loaded onto
a Bandit Caravan soon, and that an empty Bandit Caravan is about to travel down the road, and if left
undefended this empty Caravan can be intercepted and destroyed before arriving!
To avoid unwanted attention, Bandits would have to carry loot back to a Black Market using their
Pack Mules, or by hand. They lose a LOT of time and Loot making this choice, and are still subject to being
counter-attacked by the original Caravan owners - or any eagle-eyed adventurers in the area.
__________________________
2.If stolen goods are picked up by HAND, MULE, or by CARAVAN, all Bandits automatically receive a Criminal
Debuff which only Non-Black Market Node Town Guards, and Bounty Hunters can see.
Non-Black Market Node Town guards attack players immediately if carrying any amount of stolen goods.
You have 60 Minutes to complete your stolen goods delivery to the nearest Black Market.
This time limit can be extended by bribing a Black Market Town Guard with Glint or Gold - who will then re-
apply the Criminal Debuff and reset the 60 Minute timer, if you want to deliver to a FAR away Black Market for
greatly increased profits!
If you fail to complete your delivery before the 60min. Criminal Debuff timer expires, you automatically ping
on the map of every Bounty Hunter in the area, who can turn in your dropped stolen goods at either their
Guild for reputation gains/quests, or deliver to any BlackMarket for Gold.
________________________________
These are the first two I came up with, if I think of more i'll add them later.
Personally, I believe the limitations in place are perfect; they encourage players in a PvP-oriented world to engage with the content rather than teleporting everywhere to avoid travel dangers.
Adding fast traveling doesn't necessarily reduce the travel dangers. In Archeage for example,
the portals opened by players remain opened for a whole 30-60 seconds(+ long casting time); exposing their own location because it shows the name of the destination above the portal, and they can be used by the enemy chasing them, or used as a 200IQ bait. It has more play potential than a plain hold W chase or whatever. The destinations for the teleport are limited, so mounts are still important.
I don't think you're among the vocal minority judging by posts like [Fast Travel & Mounts], I just wanted to express my dislike regardless about the idea of holding W for +10 minutes riding from point A to B over and over every single time that it becomes a large portion of the gameplay, leading to an unproductive day, which doesn't feel good.
Discussing the importance of nodes and the changing seasons of the world
That's a good point. Hmm well, we'll see if it's worth the sacrifice when the game is out.
I like the idea, but it should have a couple of things:
1. Very limited range, significantly lower than the range of a metropolis scientific node teleport.
2. High cooldown, like 10-15 minutes, obviously.
3. No archetype should have this, in my opinion. Only a single class should have that ability, and that is the Archwizard (mage+mage) and that only if he augments the mage's teleport with the teleportation augment. This would take away the mobility spell for combat, which would reduce your combat power a lot and replace it with a more group-focused utility skill that is very helpful to travel more safe and quicker.
4. Cooldown should be increased to 30 minutes to an hour if it turns out everybody makes an Archwizard alt just to use the teleport ability.
I feel this is slightly off topic for caravan feedback so I just wanted to add this has been done so there's a real world example already to look at. in Everquest pre plans of power druids and wizard's had port spells and would stand in towns selling fast travel.
Thats the idea right ? Its cool to have builds that give up combat power to have more utility. Selling that utility is a nice way to find ones niche in a game. If your a hardcore gatherer for example thats an extra way for you to make money. As long as there are drawbacks for gaining that ability.
I'd like to make recommendations for balancing the attacker and defender risk/rewards.
1. Attacker should either be forced to either
a. repair the defenders caravan or
b. drive their own caravan from a town.
a. If attacker choses to repair the attacked caravan, this requires that attackers also come with resources to do the repair (or spend time gathering and acquiring these) as well as requires time to do the repairs on site.
b. If attackers chose to bring their own caravan, they would need to either have their caravan with them or send a messenger to their base to inform them the attack is "on". The attackers caravan would then need to traverse the open world with their caravan as well, encounter mobs, other attackers, etc. There shouldn’t be a magical caravan that suddenly appears.
This adds time for defenders to return to the attack site as well as increases risks for the attackers to lose repair resources or caravan value.
2. Value of transported goods transported between destination nodes should track with the rate of all attacks by bandits along that trade route. The more a trade route is attacked, the higher the risk for caravan owners and the higher the reward should be. This compensates caravan owners for the risk posed to them by attempting to transport goods.
3. Subsequently, the higher the rate of attacks on caravans along the trade route should reduce the value for stolen goods for attackers. The more a route is under attack, the lower the price paid for stolen goods.
This then discourages attacks by bandits as they lose compensation the more they attack and compensates the caravan owners since they gain compensation if attacks become more common.
During Caravan PvP Scenarios, players attacking the Caravan (if successful), can either;
a) Summon a Personal Caravan
b) Refurbish the Wrecked Caravan
c) Manually carry the Looted Goods to the nearest drop-off location/node
The process of determining which of these outcomes is most likely to be used for the group looting will be influenced by;
- The speed in which a response force can be sent to ward off the highwaymen from looting the valuables.
- The total amount of participants in the Caravan Raid, which will influence just how many crates can be carried away since only a single crate can be held by each person.
- The tier of the Caravan that was wrecked; as lower tiered Caravans will, by assumption, have less valuable loot contained within, thus influencing decision making.
- The level/number of players/mercenaries protecting the Caravan while it was in transit; more defenders, more valuable loot perhaps?
- The overall strength remaining of the Raid group who attacked the Caravan; "Are we capable of even defending the loot we stole?"
For Option A, summoning a Personal Caravan should NOT be an instantaneous or teleport-like ability, but instead have the summoned Caravan physically travel to the summoned location at a breakneck pace, as if influenced by a +100% to +300% speed-boost modifier (depending on upgrades either from node or personal). This ability requires that the player doing the summoning has met the following requirements;
i) Has An Empty Personal Caravan ready for use nearby (within 10-15 minutes distance)
ii) Was a participant in the Caravan PvP battle that took place
iii) Is not currently suffering from Corruption
This option ensues that the Caravan summoned is not ‘breaking’ the immersiveness of the game’s world by appearing out of thin air, and that it too can be intercepted by offending parties, albeit due to its potential speed-buff, stopping the Caravan is nigh impossible, but tracking it becomes far easier for those interested in ambushing/looting the highwaymen involved. The Caravan can be called from the location in which it is stored by the player doing the summoning, which further incentivises players to raid from nearby to their holdings and invested nodes, rather than looting from across the map IF they were to use this method of transporting the goods stolen; otherwise incurring a hefty wait time if their Personal Caravan is stored across the map. Further, this incentivises players to work together to manage just who is doing the summoning based on location, which can result in multi-party/guild alliances being temporarily formed, enhancing the player’s social interactions, as one example.
For Option B, refurbishing the wrecked Caravan that was attacked will result in a lengthy (approx. 3 minute base) cast time to salvage together a working caravan from the wreck that can be used to quickly haul the goods stolen from that location. This process can be enhanced by having a player who participated in the raid also having the profession of Carpentry/Lumberjacking/Lumber Milling. Every level a player has in one of those professions (with the highest levelled profession taking priority), the time to salvage a caravan from the wreck is reduced by 12 seconds, to a minimum of 60 seconds. This time reduction resets every 10 levels, but the Tier of the Caravan salvaged from the wreck is increased by 1 to offset this.
Lvl 1-10: Tier I / Lvl 11-20: Tier II / Lvl 21-30: Tier III / Lvl 31-40: Tier IV / Lvl 41-50: Tier V
A player with the appropriate profession maxed out in level will be capable of refurbishing a functional Caravan from the wreck in 1 minute at it’s max Tier. HOWEVER, the max tier of Caravan capable of being refurbished is maxed out at whatever the initial Wrecked Caravan was tiered at. A Tier V Caravan cannot be salvaged from a Tier III Wreck. However, the time reduction is still fully applied if a Level 25 professioned player salvages a Caravan from a Tier I or II wreck, since while that player won’t be able to produce a Tier III Caravan from the wreck, they are already capable of salvaging a Tier I Caravan with ease from such a wreck.
This ensures that players can feel like their professions are needed beyond just the standard artisan role, as it provides a real-time use for their capabilities that normal players would otherwise not have access to. Any player can salvage a Tier I caravan from a wreck, but only those with the correct profession can do so more efficiently, and to an enhanced degree. This also allows the attacking AND defending players to have the means of quickly restoring their ability to transport some, if not all the cargo dropped after the Caravan had been wrecked.
And, to provide the incentive for using either Option A or Option B as the preferred method of transporting the stolen cargo, Option C is as follows.
For Option C, the only other method available to players that have successfully attacked a Caravan, is to manually take the goods with them by hand, carrying it all back to a nearby node or similar offloading destination.
The incentive for AVOIDING this option is that, in order to reap the maximum benefits of obtaining the stolen loot- it is best to keep the cargo boxes sealed; which leads to either of the following outcomes;
i) Players will unseal and crack open the material crates to loot what is inside, before making their getaway, losing the potential bounty/reward gained from returning the commodity crates to an offloading destination.
ii) Players will crack open the material crates, but will attempt to transport the commodity crates to an offloading destination, resulting in only a partial amount of the full potential reward possible gained.
iii) Players will NOT cracked open any of the crates, and will attempt to transport them all off towards an offloading destination, resulting in the maximum possible reward gained.
Thus, to ensure that players are further incentivised to loot everything they possibly can;
Manually transporting the cargo by hand will result in an Encumbrance debuff, which will force players into being unable to attack, slowed by 30%, and having their cast-times increased by 100%.
This debuff exists to represent the awkwardness and heaviness of the cargo being transported, and insures that players are incentivised into either leaving the loot behind, or trying to use one of the aforementioned methods of reaping the maximum reward possible without incurring the penalty debuff of manually carrying the cargo.
This debuff is only applied to the player while they are carrying a cargo crate which can be dropped instantly with a circumstantial ability (which can be key-bound), to allow the transporting players to attack, cast and move freely in the case of danger or such. Optionally, any speed-buffing abilities can counteract the slow effect of this debuff, which is otherwise permanent and cannot be lifted through any means except by dropping the held crate.
With these three options in place and developed, Players will now have more versatility in decided how they will go about looting and escaping with their ill-gotten gains, in addition to further enhancing the teamwork and pre-planning necessary for pulling off Caravan Raids successfully. This puts more emphasis on having a deeper situational awareness for the location in which you and your party/guild wish to raid; on having more diversity in the roster of raiders so the appropriately levelled profession player is participating, encouraging further cross-play between professions and raiding focused gameplay.
Additional Ideas (not well thought out);
- For Option B, a Carpenter can produce Tier V Caravans from a Tier V wreck. A Lumberjack however can only produce Tier III Caravans at max from Tier IV & V wrecks. A Lumber Miller can produce a Tier IV Caravan at max from Tier V wrecks- thus prioritising the more ‘creative’ artisan professions by giving them more of an ability to produce a greater Caravan from the wrecked caravan.
- The Defending Party can repair their Caravan on the go; freely repairing a certain percentage of damage, or all the damage at the cost of further material usage/repair packs. (Repair packs may be able to be stored inside the Caravan in a separate compartment, or must be held individually by Players)
- The Attacking Party can set ablaze the Caravan for Damage over Time, which the Defending Party can put out through either a) Magic, b) Interacting with the Cart. The cart cannot then be DoT’d by the same elemental effect for a limited time.
- The Attacking Party can bury stolen loot within a certain radius of the ambush sight, but a Miner can bury the loot further away and in a more hidden manner, which will negate any attempts a regular player makes to track the location of the loot; allowing the Attacking Party to return with more people, or a Caravan, if they want to keep the loot. Signs of the buried loot are revealed after a certain amount of time passes.
- Any player can interact with the location of the Caravan Raid to attempt to ‘track’ the direction in which the cargo was taken, either by Caravan or by Foot. A Hunter can more efficiently and effectively conduct this investigation, finding more details in the tracks left behind, and even finding hidden loot buried by the ambushers. (This can also create more flashpoint PvP encounters if the Attackers bury the loot with the intention of again ambushing the recovery team)
- The Attacking Party must manually carry crates to the Caravan they intend to use to make their getaway in (either salvaged or summoned), to further enhance the immersiveness of the gameplay, and create further risk if they do so in the middle of combat.
- The Defending Party can use their AoE Caravan-bound abilities while moving, but at a reduced efficacy. They must stop to use their AoE abilities to their full potential, thus creating a fight-or-flight situation. (Potentially, allow players to upgrade and customise their Caravans will abilities that better suit the style of their gameplay, to bolster their ability to defend their Caravan; AoE Heal, AoE Inspire, AoE Debuff, AoE Protection.. Each Tier of Caravan capable of having more powerful abilities attached to it. This can be done either by directly upgrading each Caravan.. or upgrading the caravansaries)
I'd like to make recommendations for balancing the attacker and defender risk/rewards.
1. Attacker should either be forced to either
a. repair the defenders caravan or
b. drive their own caravan from a town.
I like the idea of repairing the caravan to be honest. Some people considered summoning a caravan somewhat immersion-breaking, but repairing one seems to be a good idea.
The mechanics and the event was great, i really see the potential to be a fun and great game. But also there are elements that definitely need to be worked on:
First the heath bar shouldn't be visible above people's heads, it takes a lot of space and it makes the visibility and the game experience worse (much, better not to know how much hp your opponent has left during the fight, better tactics can be used see e.g. lineage 2
There has been a lot of talk around a perceived lack of risk for attackers in caravan PvP.
When I first saw the caravan showcase how I assumed caravans would operate at launch from the node was thrown out. I thought caravan runs would be a stealthy endeavor of cat and mouse rather than an event that lets raiders know you’re about to run a loot piñata down the road.
I have a couple ideas that I believe will increase the risk of losing time for attackers while mitigating a small amount of risk for runners.
Firstly, take away the broadcast banner of a caravan run. The runner is already risking loosing their stuff, no need to lay it out on a silver platter for every pleb who was about to go run a dungeon or tame some mounts to stop what they are doing all the sudden because you broadcasted an opportunity to ruin a run that hasn’t even started yet.
Secondly, require caravan raiders to opt into raiding at a caravansary. This declaration of intent to bandit should also intersect with the bounty hunter system. Not only do bandits have to watch their back for bounty hunters they may come across, but there is not even a guarantee they will find a caravan to siege.
I have questions about the length of a caravan. Is it just from node to node? Can you travel multiple nodes away? If you want your goods farther away, do you have to travel them to each node in between the start and end?
I look forward to seeing this system iterated on, but loving the direction.
Small thing; wasn't crazy about the sound effect of the horse hooves. Sounded off, and a touch annoying, over time.
Keep up the great week Intrepid Team! Looking forward to Alpha 2!
I liked the atmosphere but I feel the spell effects are too linear and not able to be distinguished between friend and foe. I still feel like the attackers can swamp/swarm a caravan and simply zerg the caravan into defeat. The mini game didn't persuade me otherwise. The sides seemed mismatched somehow. I'm not sure if it was down to better coordination on the attacking side or whether the fight was scripted to end that way. I also didn't see the knockdown/knockback from the caravan itself. The caravan seemed defenceless.
What excites you about playing and interacting with other players and the Caravan System?
Seems a worthless time sink to be fair. Not really enjoyable from the appearance and not really viable for long term sustainability in either direction. The position of the defenders seems to be hopeless and the position of the attackers seems to be sporadic in terms of opportunities to strike. Its the kind of content you would only partake in if you have to move large quantities of materials etc rather than a side hustle to partake in pvp. I originally believed I could partake in more pvp by defending caravans but I now feel the risks are too great for such a menial reason.
Is there anything in particular you’re excited or concerned about regarding what was shown with the Caravan PvP Preview?
The health bars are intrusive. The shield should be changed to cross swords for enemies. The spell effects need to be varied between friendly and enemy sources. There is a need to have fast recognition of what is happening and I did not see a means to do rapid assessments from an observing position. I don't doubt it would be simpler if I was playing the game - after all, time invested means recognition increases. It helps that enemies are red and friendlies are green of course.
Are there similar systems you’ve seen in other games that you like or dislike? If so, please explain!
I prefer systems where players have to partake - so, no big green circle to collect the loot, players have to pick the loot up and put the loot into the caravan. It would also be better if the caravan can be repaired and captured rather than a caravan magically being built without interaction. I still feel interaction and participation are critical. I also didn't like the lack of dodge mechanics. Active block mechanics also seemed non existent, time to kill was ridiculously fast but then the players were zerged. Difficult to fully assess during development.
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VirtekMember, Phoenix Initiative, Royalty, Kickstarter, Alpha One
edited February 20
Giant wall of text, and I'm sorry! I won't be able to attend the Office Hours for this, due to our podcast time, so I wanted to put out some thoughts that may help generate discussion.
Overall, I really enjoyed the Caravan PVP Update!
(Any comments below ignore any obvious bugs or other unintended issues that I'm pretty sure Intrepid is already addressing.)
TTK looked good. Decent length, though balancing it out for the initially-stated 30-60 second TTK initially stated would be ideal. PVE-focused players might need time to truly engage their fight or flight response and assess the situation when attacked. PVP-focused players in large-scale battles might enjoy the deeper strategy and skill effect combinations that are involved with enemies that aren't doomed to die immediately when faced with more than one person and a surprise attack. Adrenaline rushes can be fun. Living with constant anxiety is not.
The transition to/from raft and land caravan is fantastic! Looks great, adds some risky time to the process, and adds options for travel routes.
I agree with the statements others have made about the raft being too maneuverable. Even if it is just a touch more raft-like in its movements, it would likely look a lot better. Perhaps maneuverability could increase if there are more people aboard taking positions at oaring stations.
50% of resources lost on a destroyed caravan sounds like a good money sink. Further reducing from cracking open crates helps that along even more.
Ranger Camo looks amazing! I especially enjoyed that the ranger would be practically invisible when far away with a background full of objects, yet standing on a skyline or close to someone made them visible to a degree. Still masked in a way, but obvious that someone is there. Adds situational/environmental awareness requirement for it to fulfill the ranger's needs.
Loving the current direction of the black market concept.
The hint at the progression a node mayor can make with the caravansary's unload speed has me very curious about what other improvements might be made with that and other buildings around a node.
Risk vs Reward for both attacker and defender sides seems to need some attention, if there are not already internal discussions on that.
In a vacuum, the caravan system design is great!
When incorporating the rest of the game design, it appears to me that there are some big concerns.
Some people have stated that "Caravan systems" of some flavor have existed in other games and done just fine. That may be true, but those games didn't have the exact combination of systems that Ashes of Creation is stated to contain on launch. Some people in our community have even stated that the caravan system in ArcheAge (haven't played it myself, so I don't know) destroys the defender side of things far more often than not (85% was used, but that may have been just a random number for example's sake) and they don't even announce the caravan traveling through an area.
I'm concerned that the Ashes-specific factors below may result in roaming caravan raid groups being a constant worry. None of these factors are bad on their own. Not at all!
However, when combined, they paint an interesting picture of the life a potential caravan runner might expect.
Very limited instanced activities to pull people off the world map. This is by design and not a bad thing, in itself. I'm not talking about the 20% of dungeons/raids involved with questing. That's not combat content people can seek as a group (or even individuals) on a random Tuesday or regularly scheduled guild raid night when you're looking for action. That is questing and you do it once per character.
1.a) This means "raid nights" will now be "Let's get together and do some kind of group combat content." If all raid/dungeon bosses are down, what other group combat options are available for 8-40 people (depending on the final size expectations of raid groups)? Surely not gathering/crafting parties...That's a surefire way to kill off any type of group combat activity planning if that happens more than a small handful of times.
1.b) Instanced PVP seems like it will be limited to Arenas and Military node mayoral arena battles. (Inserting my vote for arenas to be OW as well, to match the PVE risk vs reward requirement of bringing bodyguards for the area if they don't want their activity to be interrupted, lol)
Open World (OW) group combat content in the elder game seems (with currently announced features) to be limited to: Node/Castle sieges, Naval combat, OW PVE raid/dungeon/world bosses, and caravans (please correct me if I missed something while writing this). PVE bosses will be on potentially unpredictable timers of an unknown average length. Node Sieges are likely to be infrequent and definitely limited in participants. Castle Sieges are going to be once per month and limited in participant numbers. Naval Combat and Caravan raids are going to require searching for potential targets, with Caravan raids being the lowest risk and buy-in cost (especially because you are risking your own ship when going out to sea). The potentially redeeming factor is that a guild could choose to risk their money and run a Caravan themselves. However, the opportunity to simply attempt an attack on a caravan from a competing node would give far more reward vs time and risk.
Corruption penalties exist for ganking someone in OW PVP, but none in Caravans. Other games without a systematic reward or penalty for ganking still see plenty of it, even though a large number of people are people dissatisfied with the act occurring. Corruption is supposed to stop it in Ashes (or reduce it to a satisfactory count), but that risk will likely be transferred from OW PVE/Econ players to Caravan drivers/defenders.
Competitions with neighbor nodes (while there is an open slot for one node to progress to the next tier) will drive caravan attacks by the basic need to see the competing node fail so that yours can succeed. Guilds picking one specific node to support (due to location and/or type and/or their current status as patron) will push this activity as well. Especially true in the 5-6 tier growth, but creating a vassal of a nearby node at any stage can lead to a lasting impact all the way up the tier list.
Guilds/Node communities looking to tear down opposing nodes will look to interrupt mayoral, castle, and player-driven caravans across the entire map. Same reasoning as number 3.
If the above two points don't sound likely to you, think about why a node siege system exists. It is an encouraged interaction between nodes, to "refresh" the map and contents of the world. Think about how costly the required time and resources for siege declarations are supposed to be. What is a more easily engaged interference mechanism while saving up? Raiding caravans that benefit nodes with which people are competing. Hell...this might actually provide resources for the siege declaration.
The combination of the above points may lead to any or all of the below:
There will be a large number of grouped individuals legitimately seeking combat content.
Only guild groups will ever run caravans successfully. So many comments on this type of statement say something akin to "lol Yeah right! No way!" but the exact same people have also said that "Anyone who runs solo or with only 5 buddies deserves to fail caravans because they didn't plan appropriately."
So...what would the intended balance and source of personnel be? Guild groups. Because of the social dependency requirement of the game and the amount of time that needs to be devoted to guild leveling, node leveling, node patronage, crafting, processing, gathering, castle sieges, node sieges, guild goals, exploration, etc etc etc, you are likely to spend nearly all of your time with your guild. Bordering on (my own made-up but likely in the realm of accuracy) 90-95% of your time or more. And you need to run with a group to succeed with a caravan.
Caravans will likely only run during off-peak times, which sounds like a tragic game design result if working as intended. Those who don't have a HUGE desire for the benefits will simply not run caravans. Those who DO have that huge desire will stay up extra late into odd hours or set alarms to wake them in the middle of the night...to play an hour of a video game. Massively disruptive to living healthily in the real world.
People interested primarily in the Economy systems (not PVP or PVE combat) tend to drive a lot of a game's economy. They may not take as much of a part (if any) in the caravans because the risk of caravans being attacked will be too high. Even (and especially) if they transfer the goods to a PVP-focused crew to run for them. Profits are then split heavily and there is still the risk that they will not succeed. If the PVP group running the caravan is not paid more than they could make on their own in the OW, they will simply not run it.
4.a) If a large swath (perhaps the majority?) of econ-focused players participate less on the caravans, doesn't that kinda defeat much of the purpose?
So that I'm not just pointing out issues, but also providing ideas to remediate some of the issues, here are some suggestions that I've come up with or come across:
(Suggested by Hamlet) Emblem drops by attackers when slain by defenders. Emblem can be sold to an NPC which would produce negative effects on the attacking player's progression with attacking AND Defending. Defending players could sell the emblem to other players or the attacking player themselves (failed attackers have some incentive to pay reparations to avoid the downside). Additionally, Defenders turning in these emblems could get “Defender” progression as an additional incentive to actively participate.
(The seed for this idea resulted from conversations we had on The Discussion Round podcast) Provide tangible benefits (that do not come out of the caravan driver's pockets) to "random" defenders that opt-in from the OW notification. If the only benefit is highwayman progression, and the potential defender doesn't normally care about running or defending caravans, that equates to zero incentive. Attackers don't need to care about highwayman advancement if they just want to find a walking loot pinata, progression to make the next attack easier to win or profit from is just a huge bonus.
Mayors could have the option to engage an additional reward system for caravan defenders (paid out from the tax money coffers) for each attacker slain when their target originated from the mayor's node or within the node's ZOI.
Attackers could face the risk of receiving corruption and/or XP debt if they die during a caravan attack. Simple gear repair costs don't sound like an actual deterrent/penalty/risk, so much as a fact of life while adventuring in any capacity.
Progress in the Highwayman system could be tied to a successful delivery of the goods to a node. If a caravan’s contents do not arrive at a caravansary or black market, attackers do not gain highwayman progression. If a portion of goods arrive, attackers gain a portion of the progression.
Create the ability to hide defenders within a caravan, providing the risk of a surprise counter-attack that could also give the defenders bonus progression in the caravan system. Even if it needs to take up a lot of storage space or a second caravan vehicle, this would add some mystery to what might happen when attacked.
Treat attacker deaths similar to corrupted and have their respawn occur at a random location, instead of just the closest.
When players attack caravans, add some sort of cosmetic indicator to their home node that indicates to all that the said node houses people of ill repute. This type of mechanic could even present itself as a registry located at the home node(s) for each defender. If this registry is shared amongst the entire metropolis ZOI within which each defender is a citizen (and maybe even the ZOI of allied nodes) it could become a much more interesting risk. The registry could include the names of attackers, the number of caravans they’ve attacked, their guild name, and the registered node of citizenship. Hell, could even include the value of the goods that were successfully stolen, if the caravan owner agrees to release such details.
If slain as an attacker, you have a very high chance of dropping your caravan summoning item to the ground.
All of that said, I am 100% open to seeing how things balance out after testing. I could very well be incredibly incorrect in my concerns. I kinda hope I am, to be honest, I just want to make sure I voice the worries while everything is still in a state where changes can be considered, logically balanced, and tested.
Should I not like the system in the end, nothing is truly forcing me to participate, right?
Hi Guys,
I have a few questions I hope someone will answer regarding caravans and please forgive my ignorance if I did not get it right!
Can someone tell me what is the Benefit and I am particularly interested in the consequences of attacking the caravan if there are any ...
If I decide to attack some innocent merchant who is taking his goods to the nearest city and take from him all the goods he has been probably grinding 3 days for!
I am now an outlaw no? A bandit ... even in medieval times a bandit would end up hanging from a tree and probably never dare show his face in any town again due to being wanted criminal and having to find a hideout!
on the other hand, If I were that merchant and I felt that 3 days of boring grinding/harvesting were taken from me, and I could never get it back ... why would I ever want to spend another 3 days doing something totally boring if the high chance is I will lose it all ... Unlike attacking caravan that sounds like a lot of fun and even If I fail only 30 minutes were wasted ... makes me think everyone would want to be a bandit because even if you fail, unlike trader you don't lose 3 days of work, only 30 min probably you spent on attack ... or are there any serious consequences?
what is the consequence for the bandits and what exactly is the reward for the trader that he would want to do this again after losing everything? Does the benefit outweigh the risk?
these are the things that either break or make the game for me!
tbh, my ideal game would be if a truly evil character had a perma death, I will give you all fast-tracking powers and leveling but if you get caught that's it ... God does not resurrect evil!
Don't get me wrong I am not being negative only asking what I believe is a logical question, I am very excited about this game, and want to understand how it works! and depending on your answer I will decide if being a Trader or a bandit is a thing for me lol!
Caravan rafts are the only watercraft usable on rivers? Honestly would like to be able to build a personal raft as discovering new places via a river would be a great addition to exploring. Also wanted to add that the current in some places should be extreme... as in if you get to near a waterfall/// kiss the loot goodby!
Just to reiterate some of the feedback I brought up in the Office Hours:
My main concern is the risk/reward balance for attackers/defenders, and how it may impact the long term success of the caravan system. For me, the definition of a "successful" system revolves around player participation. In other words, the more people that play, the better for the game overall. The best way to do this in my opinion is to take on a design philosophy of developing systems that can "stand up" on their own utilizing PUGs. In other words, you shouldn't be relying on big guilds to prop the system up. Guilds should enhance the system, not make or break it. So I approach this topic from the perspective of maximizing PUG participation, since big guilds will inevitably participate no matter what. Many of the most popular and successful MMOs are PUG friendly, and AOC should be no different.
In order to ensure a stable long term minimally viable participation level in the caravan system, I think we need to prioritize maximizing the participation on both sides of the conflict. In other words, without attackers the system fails. Without defenders, the system fails. As it currently stands, the design of the system is not friendly towards encouraging players to opt-in as defenders. There is no benefit for a PUG wandering upon a PVP conflict to choose to join the defending side. They have no stake in the survival of the goods being transported, and no guarantee of any reward for "winning". 9 times out of 10, I believe a PUG would probably choose to join the attacking side of a conflict, as there is only upside in being able to loot the goods of the caravan, and no perceivable downside (that doesn't already exists as a part of "general pvp"). This "flood" of attackers can easily overwhelm and imbalance any conflict, and if this is pervasively the case, people will eventually opt out of investing their time into using caravans at all. If I know there is a 95% chance of failure in transporting goods via a caravan, I will just not waste my time investing into the system, and focus on the other parts of the game I enjoy. A system full of attackers and no defenders is no system at all.
To fix this perceived imbalance, we would need to either introduce an additional benefit for the defenders, or an additional risk for the attackers. A couple solutions I feel could be viable:
- Utilize the corruption system that is already in place in the game. Anyone who decides to be an attacker becomes corrupted for a limited time after the event ends (10 minutes or 15 minutes maybe?). This temporary debuff will force people to think twice before becoming a "bandit", and I believe it is easily explainable from a lore / in-game perspective (bandits - aka "bad guys" - get corrupted for attacking "innocent" non-combatant trade envoys). This also allows for another way to feed into the corruption / bounty hunting system, and simply enhances those aspects of the game as well. Some concerns I heard in office hours regarding this idea is that people will just not attack, but the truth is, introducing risk to players never really has a detrimental effect in other games. There are plenty of games that are FAR more punishing than AOC (dark souls cough cough) that THRIVE because pride always exists. People like a challenge, and I don't see the corruption system overwhelmingly hurting participation for the attackers in any way - just enough to rebalance some people to the defending side. This is my favorite idea, and I think it has a lot of potential for fun and exciting interactions even post-event, as corrupted players try to run and hide from "the law" that will now be seeking them out (for a limited time).
- Another potential solution is to introduce a base reward for event participation and/or victory. This base reward can be physical monetary benefits, or build upon a reputation system that confers other benefits in game. I know that the highwayman system exists to essentially do just that, but the problem is that it exists for both sides. In other words, it does not incentivize anyone to be a defender, as you can get the same benefits from being an attacker (plus much more). Introducing some other additional base reward that is only achievable through caravan defense could incentivize people to more evenly distribute between attackers an defenders, as defending would have additional upside above and beyond the highwayman system, like attacking currently does. I think balancing this "base reward" for defenders could be more tricky though, which is why I believe utilizing the corruption system above would be a more viable option.
Besides this one fatal flaw, I think the caravan system looks and feels great. The modularity of building caravans, the speed of travel during the event, the transition from land to water, and the overall concept of transporting goods from one node to another for economic gain are fantastic. I'm super excited to see more of caravan PVP on water, and see how those fights develop. I will surely be testing this system extensively with my own guild!
I think the caravan system really has the potential to make AOC stand above the rest of the competition if done correctly.
Just to reiterate some of the feedback I brought up in the Office Hours:
My main concern is the risk/reward balance for attackers/defenders, and how it may impact the long term success of the caravan system. For me, the definition of a "successful" system revolves around player participation. In other words, the more people that play, the better for the game overall. The best way to do this in my opinion is to take on a design philosophy of developing systems that can "stand up" on their own utilizing PUGs. In other words, you shouldn't be relying on big guilds to prop the system up. Guilds should enhance the system, not make or break it. So I approach this topic from the perspective of maximizing PUG participation, since big guilds will inevitably participate no matter what. Many of the most popular and successful MMOs are PUG friendly, and AOC should be no different.
In order to ensure a stable long term minimally viable participation level in the caravan system, I think we need to prioritize maximizing the participation on both sides of the conflict. In other words, without attackers the system fails. Without defenders, the system fails. As it currently stands, the design of the system is not friendly towards encouraging players to opt-in as defenders. There is no benefit for a PUG wandering upon a PVP conflict to choose to join the defending side. They have no stake in the survival of the goods being transported, and no guarantee of any reward for "winning". 9 times out of 10, I believe a PUG would probably choose to join the attacking side of a conflict, as there is only upside in being able to loot the goods of the caravan, and no perceivable downside (that doesn't already exists as a part of "general pvp"). This "flood" of attackers can easily overwhelm and imbalance any conflict, and if this is pervasively the case, people will eventually opt out of investing their time into using caravans at all. If I know there is a 95% chance of failure in transporting goods via a caravan, I will just not waste my time investing into the system, and focus on the other parts of the game I enjoy. A system full of attackers and no defenders is no system at all.
To fix this perceived imbalance, we would need to either introduce an additional benefit for the defenders, or an additional risk for the attackers. A couple solutions I feel could be viable:
- Utilize the corruption system that is already in place in the game. Anyone who decides to be an attacker becomes corrupted for a limited time after the event ends (10 minutes or 15 minutes maybe?). This temporary debuff will force people to think twice before becoming a "bandit", and I believe it is easily explainable from a lore / in-game perspective (bandits - aka "bad guys" - get corrupted for attacking "innocent" non-combatant trade envoys). This also allows for another way to feed into the corruption / bounty hunting system, and simply enhances those aspects of the game as well. Some concerns I heard in office hours regarding this idea is that people will just not attack, but the truth is, introducing risk to players never really has a detrimental effect in other games. There are plenty of games that are FAR more punishing than AOC (dark souls cough cough) that THRIVE because pride always exists. People like a challenge, and I don't see the corruption system overwhelmingly hurting participation for the attackers in any way - just enough to rebalance some people to the defending side. This is my favorite idea, and I think it has a lot of potential for fun and exciting interactions even post-event, as corrupted players try to run and hide from "the law" that will now be seeking them out (for a limited time).
- Another potential solution is to introduce a base reward for event participation and/or victory. This base reward can be physical monetary benefits, or build upon a reputation system that confers other benefits in game. I know that the highwayman system exists to essentially do just that, but the problem is that it exists for both sides. In other words, it does not incentivize anyone to be a defender, as you can get the same benefits from being an attacker (plus much more). Introducing some other additional base reward that is only achievable through caravan defense could incentivize people to more evenly distribute between attackers an defenders, as defending would have additional upside above and beyond the highwayman system, like attacking currently does. I think balancing this "base reward" for defenders could be more tricky though, which is why I believe utilizing the corruption system above would be a more viable option.
Besides this one fatal flaw, I think the caravan system looks and feels great. The modularity of building caravans, the speed of travel during the event, the transition from land to water, and the overall concept of transporting goods from one node to another for economic gain are fantastic. I'm super excited to see more of caravan PVP on water, and see how those fights develop. I will surely be testing this system extensively with my own guild!
I think the caravan system has the potential to make AOC stand above the rest of the competition if done correctly.
As someone who usually spends lots of time farming in every MMO I ever played, I will give you my input, I hate it, its tedious and boring as hell... yet I always do it because I love crafting and it was the only way to obtain the material to make something good or get in-game money but at the end of the day, in games I played there was no risk of losing it all, so time invested never felt wasted after it!
Once I lose let's say 3 day worth of gathering ... what makes you think I will want to spend another 3 days doing a boring gathering ever again, if it is extremely likely I will lose it all ...
that's the question you need to ask yourself ...
what is in for me as a gatherer that would make me want to do it ever again ...
On the other hand, it's obvious why anyone wants to be a robber and attack the caravan, particularly if there is no serious consequence to robbing others!
Everyone will wait for suckers to do the work for them, and then just take it from them ...
you get goods with 30 min of actual fun vs an entire day of boring gatherings!
In the real world, people turn to corruption because it is a shortcut to wealth or power
yet they know they may be jailed and in medieval times even hung from a tree!
only the introduction of serious consequences can justify it to me as a gatherer to gather again ... and knowing that there is some justice in the game waiting for those who turn corrupt and attack innocent, and the players who robbed me have a bounty on their head that will seriously impact/punish them and somehow affect negatively their gameplay ...
I would be even up for a permanent death for those who reach truly evil status in corruption points...
with a simple logic, why should a god in Vera resurrect something as evil? when comes to turning bad and evil I am not against it... I'd give them in-game power to a fast level and get wealth with corruption because that's how works in the real world too... but they need to live with fear and in hiding with a bounty on their head ... otherwise it makes no sense ...
Benefits vs consequences when comes to robbing caravans as well as will the benefits outweigh the risks for a gatherer is the thing that will break or make the game for me!
I don't often give feedback but to me the caravan system is the most important part of AOC so I will About the PvP :
- Health bars with quarters are interesting, on the theory it could be fun but needs to be tested !
- Stealth looks a little whacky, I wonder if it's possible to make it look better, maybe with an animation (ESO/AA)
- Try not to switch so much between players when PvP is happening, it's hard to follow and understand what's happening. Perhaps two screens or just less switching. Watching most of the fight from one point of view is more interesting than cutting half way through a combo.
- Combat looked good and dynamic, really miss the melees tho ..
- No mounts were used to either engage the PvP or follow up on the caravan. For a system that should be so important in the game with skills from mounts it's very under-represented. And if the PvP will have mounts then what we've seen isn't representative of how the PvP will be at all?
- STEVEN FOCUS ON THE PVP THIS IS SERIOUS BUSINESS
About the Caravan :
- The system itself is amazing, reminds me a lot of Archeage early traderun system. We decide of our own trade routes and we are taking risks for rewards.
- Spawning the caravan to pick up more loot and get more reward is great, again same kind of "piracy" than on Archeage where we'd need to destroy a vehicle to load up our own. This cooldown to summon our own caravan is very well thought, since there is no fast travels it gives a chance for the defenders to come back and try to get their stuff back and it gives the attackers the option to either run away fast with the loot or stay a little longer and try to get even more reward. Super cool.
- The time it takes to destroy a caravan and spawn a new one should be tested a lot to make sure defenders always get a chance to catch up with their lost loot, it's easy to win the first fight with surprise but winning a caravan should mean that you can also keep it.
- The raft may not have super realistic movements, but I think it's ok, as it's not just a random boat simulator we actually have valuable items on this vehicle and we don't want to have it drifting away and become uncontrollable during an attack (like clippers on AA??) for no reason. Please keep it comfortable to drive, over realism of raft-simulator2024
- This raid made for attackers seems a little too automatic, I don't want to always play with everyone and share my spoils of war with everyone. I would say it's better to let players create their own raids and decide to invite people they want to share the rewards with, or not. So I don't think caravan raiding should be all automatic, just spot the caravan visually without an event pop-up and attack it with your friends, if you fail call more or give up. On top of that, you could have two rival guilds attacking a third rival guild's caravan, it could be a good way for three way spontaneous PvP. But only if raids are made by the players and not by pop-up events like if it was a PvE event.
Only bit of feedback atm is I'd like to see the Caravan that attackers summon be manually summoned from the nearest node with a Caravansary. Would mean the attackers would need to split their forces, one group defending the loot they just won, and another to escort the caravan to the loot so it doesn't get intercepted by the defenders or another group trying to retake the loot.
Comments
a.) activate a defensive/healing buff for a short time,
b.) mass root your opponents
c.) summon a weak miniboss to assist your team with support skills
d.) put cannons on the caravan to sit behind, etc.
But there are probably better ideas.
Something like this around the the sphere during movement (and the edge of the sphere should be hidden):
Similar to shields use by wizards, it could be pimped up a bit
Apart from the above, I think it will be superb! Keep up the good work!
Thx starkky!
In order for the caravan system to work (meaning you have enough people on both sides who want to run, defend, and attack caravans) you have to find a certain level of balance in order for the system to work.
First off, whenever a caravan is attacked and destroyed, I feel those goods should be marked in the game as stolen whether they break open the crate to take the items out or they leave the crates intact and the attackers drive their own caravan over the crates to pick them up like Steven did on the livestream. The crates his caravan picked up should definitely be marked as stolen goods in the system because he and his attackers stole them from the merchants. ;p
Now for the rest.
1) Attackers stay as is for caravan runs.
2) As long as there are no stolen goods in the shipment, the caravan runner receives bonus exp during a caravan run - so they earn bonus exp on every attacker killed by the defenders and on the successful turn in.
3) As long as there are no stolen goods in the shipment, the caravan runner earns caravan running skill points for each run whether the run is successful or not - just the amount of skill points earned changes based on the distance traveled during the run (when it is destroyed or delivered).
4) As long as there are no stolen goods in the shipment, each defender earns bonus exp for every attacker the group kills during the caravan run and a big exp reward for a successful run.
5) Caravan runs that contain any stolen goods (whether it's from a caravan attackers looted or that PVPers out in the world stole from their victims, or stuff that was pickpocketed by thieves) will not have the ability to to move their caravan quickly and, instead, the caravan will travel 2x slower than a normal caravan, defenders will only receive regular exp (no bonus exp), the caravan runner (owner of the caravan) will only receive regular exp (no bonus exp) and caravan runners will only receive regular caravan running skill points (no bonus exp). Also, the quest offering will notify all potential Defenders and Attackers that the caravan contains stolen goods with the message where they choose to accept the quest as a defender or attacker.
Oh, one suggestion...check out the rafts and boats in Valheim...they did a nice job of immersing you in the feel of running rafts and boats in the water currents...
Caravans are suppose to almost be the blood of the world(get people out so the world doesn't feel empty and give a reason for conflict) there is risk in bringing one out but also profit for success.
I think the current implementations can use some easy tweaks that would drastically help the health of the game the most important part of this game is nodes and needing to belong and help evolve your home and I think having a caravan show the node the owner is from(ether an icon, name of node in its name, or simply the name being ally color coded) would help in many ways. Another simple thing is getting home node rep or currency for protecting A caravan from one of your own and loosing some attacking it.
This would do a few things
1) risk vs reward. the farther from your home node you go the more risk but also if bring things that you cant get local the more the items will be worth.
2)community. this would naturally encourage the node to work together and build friendships.
3)meta of node vs node/world stage. if there's a nearby node competing to upgrade first and lock your node out you can now call on your whole node to attack them to stop there progress and these things can easily escalate into full wars.
4)it lets solo players feel they can do both sides of the attack and defending of caravans instead of only being a bandit type player or only protecting depending on there personality.
There are some other things that can done as well such as letting the mayor make temporary alliances that show caravans of another node as allies to prevent it from being too oppressive. I'm not super worried about it being impossible to move a caravan if a node really needs something a big train of caravans with a 100 people running around them isn't likely to give nodes time to assemble there own mass group of players to loot it in the short time between getting seen and arriving safely although smaller groups might have some difficulty might need to make the safe zone entering a node much bigger and add lore that NPC's hate seeing a caravan attacked so you need to do it far from the city.
I like the idea, but it should have a couple of things:
1. Very limited range, significantly lower than the range of a metropolis scientific node teleport.
2. High cooldown, like 10-15 minutes, obviously.
3. No archetype should have this, in my opinion. Only a single class should have that ability, and that is the Archwizard (mage+mage) and that only if he augments the mage's teleport with the teleportation augment. This would take away the mobility spell for combat, which would reduce your combat power a lot and replace it with a more group-focused utility skill that is very helpful to travel more safe and quicker.
4. Cooldown should be increased to 30 minutes to an hour if it turns out everybody makes an Archwizard alt just to use the teleport ability.
I feel this is slightly off topic for caravan feedback so I just wanted to add this has been done so there's a real world example already to look at. in Everquest pre plans of power druids and wizard's had port spells and would stand in towns selling fast travel.
- the spawning caravan looks really off putting, when calling the caravan to pick the robbed goods, an empty caravan should leave the nearest node (or maybe select which node to call the caravan from to secure it from enemy players) and the caravan will come automatically using normal pathing routes, a marker will appear for the leader of the group showing the caravan move in the map. Allow an option for a member of the group to take control of the empty caravan so a player can take a different route maybe to counter act an ambush from another bandit group.
- the caravan health should be able to be repaired with wood/iron from the environment (player start cutting trees right next to the caravan after a bandit attack to start repair it) or directly from players inventory, and any player from the group should have access to the repair mechanic.
- the caravan should display damage based on % missing health.. 30% damage (starts to burn, some planks start to fall , a wheel start to spin unevenly) 60% damage more fire, horses start to get nervous because of the fire, a wheel fells off.
- animation for when the caravan is destroy, cargo starts to fall from the caravan, a door opens from the backside revealing one big cargo box, etc.
- building the boat should require interaction from the players to complete, players must cut down trees and bring the wood to the structure, there should be points around the structure where players needs to interact while having wood on the inventory to start an woodwork animation for 6 seconds . (this will add incredible immersion without making it too much a of a chore)
- boat should be a bit slower with the possibility of having rowing spot for players to increase the speed of the boat .This option only sits the player , they dont need to press anything, each player will add speed in a % sum.
Side note from the combat/animation:
-The artistic design of spells are a bit all over the place , i think there is too much bright and distracting lights/colors in teamfights, its like everyone is using fireworks, Maybe some spells should look more grounded and physical to decrease the amount of visual chaos, when i watch the teamfight i could´nt figure out who was casting what at any point , in terms of spell casting everything felt too alike and lacks identity,
Would like to see a lot more of the economic side of things. I hope that the selling of goods at the far end is automated for the most part (want to make gold from transport, not friends).
1. General Caravan System Discussion - How do you feel about the Caravan System, based on information shared during the January 2024 Development Update? What are you excited about and what concerns do you have?
Excited:
* System looks fun.
Concerns:
* Caravans becoming a solved optimization problem.
* Caravan capacity seems abysmally small. (I know its a WIP)
* Balance seems very delicate. Going to teeter between broken or useless.
Feedback:
* Important that components allow people to try different gameplans with their caravan, such as a fast and stealthy caravan, or a tanky support caravan, etc.
* Important that components dont break the bank, but still are impactful enough to be fun to have.
2. Caravan Attackers and Defenders - How do you feel about being a Caravan attacker? How do you feel about being a Caravan defender? How do incentives, such as progression paths specific to Caravan attackers and defenders, make you more or less excited about PvP around Caravans?
Excited:
* Being able to break crates and run as an attacker.
* Being adequately rewarded as a defender
Concerns:
* Defender progression shouldnt just be focused on the caravan or caravan driver.
* There is an obvious imbalance between attackers and defenders:
DEFENDERS:
CONS:
- have to bring the materials and can lose them (could be weeks worth of time investment)
- have to buy the caravans
- have to use resources on the components and can lose both the caravan and the components
- have the time commitment to slowly trek to another node
PROS:
- make money
- advance a nodes situation (mostly mayoral caravans though)
ATTACKERS:
CONS:
- "social risk" (which is less effective towards larger guilds)
PROS:
- can make a quick buck
- impeding enemies is already a success, even without any loot in return
- even if the original owners come back, they can only get 25% of the original loot, so counter attacking isnt even as rewarding as the original attacking
When you siege a node or castle, you need to use something that costs significant resources. That embodies risk vs reward. Attackers in the current system doesnt seem consistent with philosophy.
Feedback:
* Allow caravan owner to send a list of whoever attacks the caravan to be sent throughout the vassal network of the node the caravan was launched from. This would be real social risk.
* Allow caravan owners to set a reward for those who join the defenders side upon success of reaching destination.
3. Caravan Travel - How do you feel about the ways a Caravan moves through the world? What feedback do you have about Caravans traversing rivers?
Excited:
* Rivers with currents, and the possibility of other types of events causing unpredictability.
Concerns:
* What are you doing with the horse?
* Having to wait 2 - 5 minutes or however long, doing nothing, is extremely boring.
Feedback:
* When a new, empty caravan is summoned out in the open world, it should roll in like a ghost rather than just spawning on top of you.
* Seasons should cause changes with both land and river routes somehow.
* Rafts should come to a slow stop rather than an immediate stop.
4. Caravan Visuals - How do you feel about what we’re aspiring to do with the visual fidelity of all things related to Caravans? Examples include caravan, crate, and raft visuals.
Excited:
* Scaffolding being built during transition of caravan to raft and vice versa.
Concerns:
* Having trouble seeing how you can apply visual clarity to what a caravan is holding, and how valuable it is, especially with skins.
Feedback:
* Would like to be able to lift crates and move them slowly.
* Would like visual indicators as to the health of the caravan, instead of a direct health bar (could still have chunks like player health bars).
Interested and intrigued about some fresh and innovative content.
What excites you about playing and interacting with other players and the Caravan System?
Organic, player created content. The sense of adventure and discovery of potentially coming across a caravan in Verra, and contemplating helping defend or attack the caravan. A random, non-PVE determined event is exciting.
I also like the various risk reward elements of the preview.
Is there anything in particular you’re excited or concerned about regarding what was shown with the Caravan PvP Preview?
Excited by the ability to traverse both land and water. Not a concern, but I don't understand the consequences of attacking a caravan, while the consequences of transporting goods via caravan is losing them.
I really liked the Caravan Preview, it was of course staged, but I could tell all the ways Players would use Scouts, Camouflage, line of sight, choke points and Ambushes to cause Havok on Caravan Goers!
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A few things I'd like to see added are:
1. If Bandits are using a Caravan to haul STOLEN Caravan Crates, this Bandit Caravan must be summoned by
firing a Flare Gun (or lighting a Firework) that leaves a smoke trail, and shoots up High into the air and
explodes into a large bright Firework display and a loud report that you can hear for a long ways.
This Flare/Firework shows the empty Bandit caravan where to travel to, and also draws immediate
attention to anyone in the area that Caravan Crates are currently ON the ground, and going to be loaded onto
a Bandit Caravan soon, and that an empty Bandit Caravan is about to travel down the road, and if left
undefended this empty Caravan can be intercepted and destroyed before arriving!
To avoid unwanted attention, Bandits would have to carry loot back to a Black Market using their
Pack Mules, or by hand. They lose a LOT of time and Loot making this choice, and are still subject to being
counter-attacked by the original Caravan owners - or any eagle-eyed adventurers in the area.
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2.If stolen goods are picked up by HAND, MULE, or by CARAVAN, all Bandits automatically receive a Criminal
Debuff which only Non-Black Market Node Town Guards, and Bounty Hunters can see.
Non-Black Market Node Town guards attack players immediately if carrying any amount of stolen goods.
You have 60 Minutes to complete your stolen goods delivery to the nearest Black Market.
This time limit can be extended by bribing a Black Market Town Guard with Glint or Gold - who will then re-
apply the Criminal Debuff and reset the 60 Minute timer, if you want to deliver to a FAR away Black Market for
greatly increased profits!
If you fail to complete your delivery before the 60min. Criminal Debuff timer expires, you automatically ping
on the map of every Bounty Hunter in the area, who can turn in your dropped stolen goods at either their
Guild for reputation gains/quests, or deliver to any BlackMarket for Gold.
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These are the first two I came up with, if I think of more i'll add them later.
Thats the idea right ? Its cool to have builds that give up combat power to have more utility. Selling that utility is a nice way to find ones niche in a game. If your a hardcore gatherer for example thats an extra way for you to make money. As long as there are drawbacks for gaining that ability.
1. Attacker should either be forced to either
a. repair the defenders caravan or
b. drive their own caravan from a town.
a. If attacker choses to repair the attacked caravan, this requires that attackers also come with resources to do the repair (or spend time gathering and acquiring these) as well as requires time to do the repairs on site.
b. If attackers chose to bring their own caravan, they would need to either have their caravan with them or send a messenger to their base to inform them the attack is "on". The attackers caravan would then need to traverse the open world with their caravan as well, encounter mobs, other attackers, etc. There shouldn’t be a magical caravan that suddenly appears.
This adds time for defenders to return to the attack site as well as increases risks for the attackers to lose repair resources or caravan value.
2. Value of transported goods transported between destination nodes should track with the rate of all attacks by bandits along that trade route. The more a trade route is attacked, the higher the risk for caravan owners and the higher the reward should be. This compensates caravan owners for the risk posed to them by attempting to transport goods.
3. Subsequently, the higher the rate of attacks on caravans along the trade route should reduce the value for stolen goods for attackers. The more a route is under attack, the lower the price paid for stolen goods.
This then discourages attacks by bandits as they lose compensation the more they attack and compensates the caravan owners since they gain compensation if attacks become more common.
a) Summon a Personal Caravan
b) Refurbish the Wrecked Caravan
c) Manually carry the Looted Goods to the nearest drop-off location/node
The process of determining which of these outcomes is most likely to be used for the group looting will be influenced by;
- The speed in which a response force can be sent to ward off the highwaymen from looting the valuables.
- The total amount of participants in the Caravan Raid, which will influence just how many crates can be carried away since only a single crate can be held by each person.
- The tier of the Caravan that was wrecked; as lower tiered Caravans will, by assumption, have less valuable loot contained within, thus influencing decision making.
- The level/number of players/mercenaries protecting the Caravan while it was in transit; more defenders, more valuable loot perhaps?
- The overall strength remaining of the Raid group who attacked the Caravan; "Are we capable of even defending the loot we stole?"
For Option A, summoning a Personal Caravan should NOT be an instantaneous or teleport-like ability, but instead have the summoned Caravan physically travel to the summoned location at a breakneck pace, as if influenced by a +100% to +300% speed-boost modifier (depending on upgrades either from node or personal). This ability requires that the player doing the summoning has met the following requirements;
i) Has An Empty Personal Caravan ready for use nearby (within 10-15 minutes distance)
ii) Was a participant in the Caravan PvP battle that took place
iii) Is not currently suffering from Corruption
This option ensues that the Caravan summoned is not ‘breaking’ the immersiveness of the game’s world by appearing out of thin air, and that it too can be intercepted by offending parties, albeit due to its potential speed-buff, stopping the Caravan is nigh impossible, but tracking it becomes far easier for those interested in ambushing/looting the highwaymen involved. The Caravan can be called from the location in which it is stored by the player doing the summoning, which further incentivises players to raid from nearby to their holdings and invested nodes, rather than looting from across the map IF they were to use this method of transporting the goods stolen; otherwise incurring a hefty wait time if their Personal Caravan is stored across the map. Further, this incentivises players to work together to manage just who is doing the summoning based on location, which can result in multi-party/guild alliances being temporarily formed, enhancing the player’s social interactions, as one example.
For Option B, refurbishing the wrecked Caravan that was attacked will result in a lengthy (approx. 3 minute base) cast time to salvage together a working caravan from the wreck that can be used to quickly haul the goods stolen from that location. This process can be enhanced by having a player who participated in the raid also having the profession of Carpentry/Lumberjacking/Lumber Milling. Every level a player has in one of those professions (with the highest levelled profession taking priority), the time to salvage a caravan from the wreck is reduced by 12 seconds, to a minimum of 60 seconds. This time reduction resets every 10 levels, but the Tier of the Caravan salvaged from the wreck is increased by 1 to offset this.
Lvl 1-10: Tier I / Lvl 11-20: Tier II / Lvl 21-30: Tier III / Lvl 31-40: Tier IV / Lvl 41-50: Tier V
A player with the appropriate profession maxed out in level will be capable of refurbishing a functional Caravan from the wreck in 1 minute at it’s max Tier. HOWEVER, the max tier of Caravan capable of being refurbished is maxed out at whatever the initial Wrecked Caravan was tiered at. A Tier V Caravan cannot be salvaged from a Tier III Wreck. However, the time reduction is still fully applied if a Level 25 professioned player salvages a Caravan from a Tier I or II wreck, since while that player won’t be able to produce a Tier III Caravan from the wreck, they are already capable of salvaging a Tier I Caravan with ease from such a wreck.
This ensures that players can feel like their professions are needed beyond just the standard artisan role, as it provides a real-time use for their capabilities that normal players would otherwise not have access to. Any player can salvage a Tier I caravan from a wreck, but only those with the correct profession can do so more efficiently, and to an enhanced degree. This also allows the attacking AND defending players to have the means of quickly restoring their ability to transport some, if not all the cargo dropped after the Caravan had been wrecked.
And, to provide the incentive for using either Option A or Option B as the preferred method of transporting the stolen cargo, Option C is as follows.
For Option C, the only other method available to players that have successfully attacked a Caravan, is to manually take the goods with them by hand, carrying it all back to a nearby node or similar offloading destination.
The incentive for AVOIDING this option is that, in order to reap the maximum benefits of obtaining the stolen loot- it is best to keep the cargo boxes sealed; which leads to either of the following outcomes;
i) Players will unseal and crack open the material crates to loot what is inside, before making their getaway, losing the potential bounty/reward gained from returning the commodity crates to an offloading destination.
ii) Players will crack open the material crates, but will attempt to transport the commodity crates to an offloading destination, resulting in only a partial amount of the full potential reward possible gained.
iii) Players will NOT cracked open any of the crates, and will attempt to transport them all off towards an offloading destination, resulting in the maximum possible reward gained.
Thus, to ensure that players are further incentivised to loot everything they possibly can;
Manually transporting the cargo by hand will result in an Encumbrance debuff, which will force players into being unable to attack, slowed by 30%, and having their cast-times increased by 100%.
This debuff exists to represent the awkwardness and heaviness of the cargo being transported, and insures that players are incentivised into either leaving the loot behind, or trying to use one of the aforementioned methods of reaping the maximum reward possible without incurring the penalty debuff of manually carrying the cargo.
This debuff is only applied to the player while they are carrying a cargo crate which can be dropped instantly with a circumstantial ability (which can be key-bound), to allow the transporting players to attack, cast and move freely in the case of danger or such. Optionally, any speed-buffing abilities can counteract the slow effect of this debuff, which is otherwise permanent and cannot be lifted through any means except by dropping the held crate.
With these three options in place and developed, Players will now have more versatility in decided how they will go about looting and escaping with their ill-gotten gains, in addition to further enhancing the teamwork and pre-planning necessary for pulling off Caravan Raids successfully. This puts more emphasis on having a deeper situational awareness for the location in which you and your party/guild wish to raid; on having more diversity in the roster of raiders so the appropriately levelled profession player is participating, encouraging further cross-play between professions and raiding focused gameplay.
Additional Ideas (not well thought out);
- For Option B, a Carpenter can produce Tier V Caravans from a Tier V wreck. A Lumberjack however can only produce Tier III Caravans at max from Tier IV & V wrecks. A Lumber Miller can produce a Tier IV Caravan at max from Tier V wrecks- thus prioritising the more ‘creative’ artisan professions by giving them more of an ability to produce a greater Caravan from the wrecked caravan.
- The Defending Party can repair their Caravan on the go; freely repairing a certain percentage of damage, or all the damage at the cost of further material usage/repair packs. (Repair packs may be able to be stored inside the Caravan in a separate compartment, or must be held individually by Players)
- The Attacking Party can set ablaze the Caravan for Damage over Time, which the Defending Party can put out through either a) Magic, b) Interacting with the Cart. The cart cannot then be DoT’d by the same elemental effect for a limited time.
- The Attacking Party can bury stolen loot within a certain radius of the ambush sight, but a Miner can bury the loot further away and in a more hidden manner, which will negate any attempts a regular player makes to track the location of the loot; allowing the Attacking Party to return with more people, or a Caravan, if they want to keep the loot. Signs of the buried loot are revealed after a certain amount of time passes.
- Any player can interact with the location of the Caravan Raid to attempt to ‘track’ the direction in which the cargo was taken, either by Caravan or by Foot. A Hunter can more efficiently and effectively conduct this investigation, finding more details in the tracks left behind, and even finding hidden loot buried by the ambushers. (This can also create more flashpoint PvP encounters if the Attackers bury the loot with the intention of again ambushing the recovery team)
- The Attacking Party must manually carry crates to the Caravan they intend to use to make their getaway in (either salvaged or summoned), to further enhance the immersiveness of the gameplay, and create further risk if they do so in the middle of combat.
- The Defending Party can use their AoE Caravan-bound abilities while moving, but at a reduced efficacy. They must stop to use their AoE abilities to their full potential, thus creating a fight-or-flight situation. (Potentially, allow players to upgrade and customise their Caravans will abilities that better suit the style of their gameplay, to bolster their ability to defend their Caravan; AoE Heal, AoE Inspire, AoE Debuff, AoE Protection.. Each Tier of Caravan capable of having more powerful abilities attached to it. This can be done either by directly upgrading each Caravan.. or upgrading the caravansaries)
I like the idea of repairing the caravan to be honest. Some people considered summoning a caravan somewhat immersion-breaking, but repairing one seems to be a good idea.
This
When I first saw the caravan showcase how I assumed caravans would operate at launch from the node was thrown out. I thought caravan runs would be a stealthy endeavor of cat and mouse rather than an event that lets raiders know you’re about to run a loot piñata down the road.
I have a couple ideas that I believe will increase the risk of losing time for attackers while mitigating a small amount of risk for runners.
Firstly, take away the broadcast banner of a caravan run. The runner is already risking loosing their stuff, no need to lay it out on a silver platter for every pleb who was about to go run a dungeon or tame some mounts to stop what they are doing all the sudden because you broadcasted an opportunity to ruin a run that hasn’t even started yet.
Secondly, require caravan raiders to opt into raiding at a caravansary. This declaration of intent to bandit should also intersect with the bounty hunter system. Not only do bandits have to watch their back for bounty hunters they may come across, but there is not even a guarantee they will find a caravan to siege.
I have questions about the length of a caravan. Is it just from node to node? Can you travel multiple nodes away? If you want your goods farther away, do you have to travel them to each node in between the start and end?
I look forward to seeing this system iterated on, but loving the direction.
Small thing; wasn't crazy about the sound effect of the horse hooves. Sounded off, and a touch annoying, over time.
Keep up the great week Intrepid Team! Looking forward to Alpha 2!
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCP31ixSBO7GHKLBefWVcJaA
I liked the atmosphere but I feel the spell effects are too linear and not able to be distinguished between friend and foe. I still feel like the attackers can swamp/swarm a caravan and simply zerg the caravan into defeat. The mini game didn't persuade me otherwise. The sides seemed mismatched somehow. I'm not sure if it was down to better coordination on the attacking side or whether the fight was scripted to end that way. I also didn't see the knockdown/knockback from the caravan itself. The caravan seemed defenceless.
What excites you about playing and interacting with other players and the Caravan System?
Seems a worthless time sink to be fair. Not really enjoyable from the appearance and not really viable for long term sustainability in either direction. The position of the defenders seems to be hopeless and the position of the attackers seems to be sporadic in terms of opportunities to strike. Its the kind of content you would only partake in if you have to move large quantities of materials etc rather than a side hustle to partake in pvp. I originally believed I could partake in more pvp by defending caravans but I now feel the risks are too great for such a menial reason.
Is there anything in particular you’re excited or concerned about regarding what was shown with the Caravan PvP Preview?
The health bars are intrusive. The shield should be changed to cross swords for enemies. The spell effects need to be varied between friendly and enemy sources. There is a need to have fast recognition of what is happening and I did not see a means to do rapid assessments from an observing position. I don't doubt it would be simpler if I was playing the game - after all, time invested means recognition increases. It helps that enemies are red and friendlies are green of course.
Are there similar systems you’ve seen in other games that you like or dislike? If so, please explain!
I prefer systems where players have to partake - so, no big green circle to collect the loot, players have to pick the loot up and put the loot into the caravan. It would also be better if the caravan can be repaired and captured rather than a caravan magically being built without interaction. I still feel interaction and participation are critical. I also didn't like the lack of dodge mechanics. Active block mechanics also seemed non existent, time to kill was ridiculously fast but then the players were zerged. Difficult to fully assess during development.
Overall, I really enjoyed the Caravan PVP Update!
(Any comments below ignore any obvious bugs or other unintended issues that I'm pretty sure Intrepid is already addressing.)
TTK looked good. Decent length, though balancing it out for the initially-stated 30-60 second TTK initially stated would be ideal. PVE-focused players might need time to truly engage their fight or flight response and assess the situation when attacked. PVP-focused players in large-scale battles might enjoy the deeper strategy and skill effect combinations that are involved with enemies that aren't doomed to die immediately when faced with more than one person and a surprise attack. Adrenaline rushes can be fun. Living with constant anxiety is not.
The transition to/from raft and land caravan is fantastic! Looks great, adds some risky time to the process, and adds options for travel routes.
I agree with the statements others have made about the raft being too maneuverable. Even if it is just a touch more raft-like in its movements, it would likely look a lot better. Perhaps maneuverability could increase if there are more people aboard taking positions at oaring stations.
50% of resources lost on a destroyed caravan sounds like a good money sink. Further reducing from cracking open crates helps that along even more.
Ranger Camo looks amazing! I especially enjoyed that the ranger would be practically invisible when far away with a background full of objects, yet standing on a skyline or close to someone made them visible to a degree. Still masked in a way, but obvious that someone is there. Adds situational/environmental awareness requirement for it to fulfill the ranger's needs.
Loving the current direction of the black market concept.
The hint at the progression a node mayor can make with the caravansary's unload speed has me very curious about what other improvements might be made with that and other buildings around a node.
Risk vs Reward for both attacker and defender sides seems to need some attention, if there are not already internal discussions on that.
In a vacuum, the caravan system design is great!
When incorporating the rest of the game design, it appears to me that there are some big concerns.
Some people have stated that "Caravan systems" of some flavor have existed in other games and done just fine. That may be true, but those games didn't have the exact combination of systems that Ashes of Creation is stated to contain on launch. Some people in our community have even stated that the caravan system in ArcheAge (haven't played it myself, so I don't know) destroys the defender side of things far more often than not (85% was used, but that may have been just a random number for example's sake) and they don't even announce the caravan traveling through an area.
I'm concerned that the Ashes-specific factors below may result in roaming caravan raid groups being a constant worry. None of these factors are bad on their own. Not at all!
However, when combined, they paint an interesting picture of the life a potential caravan runner might expect.
1.a) This means "raid nights" will now be "Let's get together and do some kind of group combat content." If all raid/dungeon bosses are down, what other group combat options are available for 8-40 people (depending on the final size expectations of raid groups)? Surely not gathering/crafting parties...That's a surefire way to kill off any type of group combat activity planning if that happens more than a small handful of times.
1.b) Instanced PVP seems like it will be limited to Arenas and Military node mayoral arena battles. (Inserting my vote for arenas to be OW as well, to match the PVE risk vs reward requirement of bringing bodyguards for the area if they don't want their activity to be interrupted, lol)
The combination of the above points may lead to any or all of the below:
So...what would the intended balance and source of personnel be? Guild groups. Because of the social dependency requirement of the game and the amount of time that needs to be devoted to guild leveling, node leveling, node patronage, crafting, processing, gathering, castle sieges, node sieges, guild goals, exploration, etc etc etc, you are likely to spend nearly all of your time with your guild. Bordering on (my own made-up but likely in the realm of accuracy) 90-95% of your time or more. And you need to run with a group to succeed with a caravan.
4.a) If a large swath (perhaps the majority?) of econ-focused players participate less on the caravans, doesn't that kinda defeat much of the purpose?
So that I'm not just pointing out issues, but also providing ideas to remediate some of the issues, here are some suggestions that I've come up with or come across:
All of that said, I am 100% open to seeing how things balance out after testing. I could very well be incredibly incorrect in my concerns. I kinda hope I am, to be honest, I just want to make sure I voice the worries while everything is still in a state where changes can be considered, logically balanced, and tested.
Should I not like the system in the end, nothing is truly forcing me to participate, right?
I have a few questions I hope someone will answer regarding caravans and please forgive my ignorance if I did not get it right!
Can someone tell me what is the Benefit and I am particularly interested in the consequences of attacking the caravan if there are any ...
If I decide to attack some innocent merchant who is taking his goods to the nearest city and take from him all the goods he has been probably grinding 3 days for!
I am now an outlaw no? A bandit ... even in medieval times a bandit would end up hanging from a tree and probably never dare show his face in any town again due to being wanted criminal and having to find a hideout!
on the other hand, If I were that merchant and I felt that 3 days of boring grinding/harvesting were taken from me, and I could never get it back ... why would I ever want to spend another 3 days doing something totally boring if the high chance is I will lose it all ... Unlike attacking caravan that sounds like a lot of fun and even If I fail only 30 minutes were wasted ... makes me think everyone would want to be a bandit because even if you fail, unlike trader you don't lose 3 days of work, only 30 min probably you spent on attack ... or are there any serious consequences?
what is the consequence for the bandits and what exactly is the reward for the trader that he would want to do this again after losing everything? Does the benefit outweigh the risk?
these are the things that either break or make the game for me!
tbh, my ideal game would be if a truly evil character had a perma death, I will give you all fast-tracking powers and leveling but if you get caught that's it ... God does not resurrect evil!
Don't get me wrong I am not being negative only asking what I believe is a logical question, I am very excited about this game, and want to understand how it works! and depending on your answer I will decide if being a Trader or a bandit is a thing for me lol!
Thank you
My main concern is the risk/reward balance for attackers/defenders, and how it may impact the long term success of the caravan system. For me, the definition of a "successful" system revolves around player participation. In other words, the more people that play, the better for the game overall. The best way to do this in my opinion is to take on a design philosophy of developing systems that can "stand up" on their own utilizing PUGs. In other words, you shouldn't be relying on big guilds to prop the system up. Guilds should enhance the system, not make or break it. So I approach this topic from the perspective of maximizing PUG participation, since big guilds will inevitably participate no matter what. Many of the most popular and successful MMOs are PUG friendly, and AOC should be no different.
In order to ensure a stable long term minimally viable participation level in the caravan system, I think we need to prioritize maximizing the participation on both sides of the conflict. In other words, without attackers the system fails. Without defenders, the system fails. As it currently stands, the design of the system is not friendly towards encouraging players to opt-in as defenders. There is no benefit for a PUG wandering upon a PVP conflict to choose to join the defending side. They have no stake in the survival of the goods being transported, and no guarantee of any reward for "winning". 9 times out of 10, I believe a PUG would probably choose to join the attacking side of a conflict, as there is only upside in being able to loot the goods of the caravan, and no perceivable downside (that doesn't already exists as a part of "general pvp"). This "flood" of attackers can easily overwhelm and imbalance any conflict, and if this is pervasively the case, people will eventually opt out of investing their time into using caravans at all. If I know there is a 95% chance of failure in transporting goods via a caravan, I will just not waste my time investing into the system, and focus on the other parts of the game I enjoy. A system full of attackers and no defenders is no system at all.
To fix this perceived imbalance, we would need to either introduce an additional benefit for the defenders, or an additional risk for the attackers. A couple solutions I feel could be viable:
- Utilize the corruption system that is already in place in the game. Anyone who decides to be an attacker becomes corrupted for a limited time after the event ends (10 minutes or 15 minutes maybe?). This temporary debuff will force people to think twice before becoming a "bandit", and I believe it is easily explainable from a lore / in-game perspective (bandits - aka "bad guys" - get corrupted for attacking "innocent" non-combatant trade envoys). This also allows for another way to feed into the corruption / bounty hunting system, and simply enhances those aspects of the game as well. Some concerns I heard in office hours regarding this idea is that people will just not attack, but the truth is, introducing risk to players never really has a detrimental effect in other games. There are plenty of games that are FAR more punishing than AOC (dark souls cough cough) that THRIVE because pride always exists. People like a challenge, and I don't see the corruption system overwhelmingly hurting participation for the attackers in any way - just enough to rebalance some people to the defending side. This is my favorite idea, and I think it has a lot of potential for fun and exciting interactions even post-event, as corrupted players try to run and hide from "the law" that will now be seeking them out (for a limited time).
- Another potential solution is to introduce a base reward for event participation and/or victory. This base reward can be physical monetary benefits, or build upon a reputation system that confers other benefits in game. I know that the highwayman system exists to essentially do just that, but the problem is that it exists for both sides. In other words, it does not incentivize anyone to be a defender, as you can get the same benefits from being an attacker (plus much more). Introducing some other additional base reward that is only achievable through caravan defense could incentivize people to more evenly distribute between attackers an defenders, as defending would have additional upside above and beyond the highwayman system, like attacking currently does. I think balancing this "base reward" for defenders could be more tricky though, which is why I believe utilizing the corruption system above would be a more viable option.
Besides this one fatal flaw, I think the caravan system looks and feels great. The modularity of building caravans, the speed of travel during the event, the transition from land to water, and the overall concept of transporting goods from one node to another for economic gain are fantastic. I'm super excited to see more of caravan PVP on water, and see how those fights develop. I will surely be testing this system extensively with my own guild!
I think the caravan system really has the potential to make AOC stand above the rest of the competition if done correctly.
As someone who usually spends lots of time farming in every MMO I ever played, I will give you my input, I hate it, its tedious and boring as hell... yet I always do it because I love crafting and it was the only way to obtain the material to make something good or get in-game money but at the end of the day, in games I played there was no risk of losing it all, so time invested never felt wasted after it!
Once I lose let's say 3 day worth of gathering ... what makes you think I will want to spend another 3 days doing a boring gathering ever again, if it is extremely likely I will lose it all ...
that's the question you need to ask yourself ...
what is in for me as a gatherer that would make me want to do it ever again ...
On the other hand, it's obvious why anyone wants to be a robber and attack the caravan, particularly if there is no serious consequence to robbing others!
Everyone will wait for suckers to do the work for them, and then just take it from them ...
you get goods with 30 min of actual fun vs an entire day of boring gatherings!
In the real world, people turn to corruption because it is a shortcut to wealth or power
yet they know they may be jailed and in medieval times even hung from a tree!
only the introduction of serious consequences can justify it to me as a gatherer to gather again ... and knowing that there is some justice in the game waiting for those who turn corrupt and attack innocent, and the players who robbed me have a bounty on their head that will seriously impact/punish them and somehow affect negatively their gameplay ...
I would be even up for a permanent death for those who reach truly evil status in corruption points...
with a simple logic, why should a god in Vera resurrect something as evil? when comes to turning bad and evil I am not against it... I'd give them in-game power to a fast level and get wealth with corruption because that's how works in the real world too... but they need to live with fear and in hiding with a bounty on their head ... otherwise it makes no sense ...
Benefits vs consequences when comes to robbing caravans as well as will the benefits outweigh the risks for a gatherer is the thing that will break or make the game for me!
About the PvP :
- Health bars with quarters are interesting, on the theory it could be fun but needs to be tested !
- Stealth looks a little whacky, I wonder if it's possible to make it look better, maybe with an animation (ESO/AA)
- Try not to switch so much between players when PvP is happening, it's hard to follow and understand what's happening. Perhaps two screens or just less switching. Watching most of the fight from one point of view is more interesting than cutting half way through a combo.
- Combat looked good and dynamic, really miss the melees tho ..
- No mounts were used to either engage the PvP or follow up on the caravan. For a system that should be so important in the game with skills from mounts it's very under-represented. And if the PvP will have mounts then what we've seen isn't representative of how the PvP will be at all?
- STEVEN FOCUS ON THE PVP THIS IS SERIOUS BUSINESS
About the Caravan :
- The system itself is amazing, reminds me a lot of Archeage early traderun system. We decide of our own trade routes and we are taking risks for rewards.
- Spawning the caravan to pick up more loot and get more reward is great, again same kind of "piracy" than on Archeage where we'd need to destroy a vehicle to load up our own. This cooldown to summon our own caravan is very well thought, since there is no fast travels it gives a chance for the defenders to come back and try to get their stuff back and it gives the attackers the option to either run away fast with the loot or stay a little longer and try to get even more reward. Super cool.
- The time it takes to destroy a caravan and spawn a new one should be tested a lot to make sure defenders always get a chance to catch up with their lost loot, it's easy to win the first fight with surprise but winning a caravan should mean that you can also keep it.
- The raft may not have super realistic movements, but I think it's ok, as it's not just a random boat simulator we actually have valuable items on this vehicle and we don't want to have it drifting away and become uncontrollable during an attack (like clippers on AA??) for no reason. Please keep it comfortable to drive, over realism of raft-simulator2024
- This raid made for attackers seems a little too automatic, I don't want to always play with everyone and share my spoils of war with everyone. I would say it's better to let players create their own raids and decide to invite people they want to share the rewards with, or not. So I don't think caravan raiding should be all automatic, just spot the caravan visually without an event pop-up and attack it with your friends, if you fail call more or give up. On top of that, you could have two rival guilds attacking a third rival guild's caravan, it could be a good way for three way spontaneous PvP. But only if raids are made by the players and not by pop-up events like if it was a PvE event.
Keep up the good work !!