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The Arena Thread

PyrololPyrolol Member, Alpha Two
With Alpha 2 on the way, I have decided to dig deeper into the competitive Arena system offered: 1v1, 3v3, 5v5

This is what has been confirmed, so let's dive into it. Just remember that these are my personal opinions based on what's been said, years of comeptitive gaming and what I am hoping this game mode will turn out to be.

At the moment, I suspect that these will be objective based arenas:
For 1v1 & 20m, FFA can remain as objective based as we have dueling (20man FFA being a battleground style game mode)
For 3v3 & 5v5, I think it should be the classic team deathmatch style (last team standing) with no respawns.
Most of scenario based modes in this game is objectives based, whether it be destroying sieges, caravans etc. so having a smaller scale PvP based arena focused on purely the classes and team vs team will give it some more diversity instead.

The Arena should focus on player vs player, working as a team using skill, game knowledge, cooldown management and coordination to defeat the enemy team with zero respawns. There shouldn't be arena gear - it should be what your character has earnt from raids, dungeons, crafting etc and that is what you use to compete with, therefore skill can only be used so much before it is time to go back out into Vera and get some upgrades (preventing people from just sitting there queuing Arena and letting them still have to take part in the game)

- Confirmed is a ladder system, ranked rewards per season with titles, cosmetics only is perfect
- Having too many Arena brackets will diminish players participating and the ranking system
- Arena should be cross realm to create more diverse battles and different team compositions
- You & your team should have to travel to an NPC to que the Arena (preventing node sitters)

Balancing of the Arena:
We already know that it is a rock, paper, scissor type game style and in dev videos, regarding the arena, they did say skill can help counter it. When balancing the arena, I believe there should be:
- A way to not affect the rest of the gameplay, it can be changes specific to that instance (i.e spell/ability is reduced by -25% while in the Arena but has full effect in open world) this prevents class changes from clashing with PvE and open world PvP
- There should be no potions or outside buffs for the Arena, only what your team can provide, if there is potions make it a big cooldown to use therefore its a more calculated decision
- 6 month seasons with seasonal rewards confirmed, and players can come show off their skills and maybe once a year tournaments can be held so that players can get into it and cheer on later when the game develops a bit more
- Gear cap should be a thing to a certain extent to prevent the hardcore PvE'rs from dominating in the arena (purely from their gear) and still putting it down to mostly skill and team coordination to outplay your enemy team and also (BIG COOLDOWNS can be not useable in Arena to make it a more exciting and competitive game mode)

I have stated some compromises to not break the integrity of this game and enjoy all the aspects it has to offer while still making Ashes of the Creation the game you want it to be. I'd love to hear your thoughts on this.
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Comments

  • LinikerLiniker Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    edited February 5
    Imo there shouldn't be 5v5 or 20v20, the game is based around 8v8 arenas should be 1v1, 3v3 because those are extremely popular, and 8v8 for ranked just those 3 modes and that's it, besides that just add a custom training arena mode that people can change settings but has no rewards/ranks and there people can set whatever they want, lock it, have it set to public, set uneven numbers and even have balanced set options with optional spectator mode,

    the more arena modes you add to the game the fewer players will queue up for those, having the least amount of arena modes is the best to always have people queue'ing up for those
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  • I have more practical concerns due to past experiences in other games:
    • afk player in the spawn
    • player disconnects
    • the team is a complete mess and there's no way to call a timeout
    • team member is just running around like a gofus and not even fighting
    • player ragequits in the middle of a match even tough he was the worst player in the team

    The bigger the team the bigger the chances a player will disconnect, or be outright afk the entire match or simply have a tantrum and rage quit
    PvE means: A handful of coins and a bag of boredom.
  • NightmarelolNightmarelol Member, Alpha Two
    I think keeping Arena with more of a proper Arena feel (2 teams enters, 1 team leaves) no respawns, no random damaging objectives, the only Objective is being the last man standing for your team.
    Another thing is,
    the way previous games have stopped people camping for example (I.E Stealthers hiding all game) is:
    > An Eye spawns after a certain time frame (similiar to WoW) which briefly shows stealthers
    > A time-limit (doesn’t have to be quick) a set standard for each bracket they’ve confirmed (1v1 / 3v3 / 5v5) When timer ends and there’s still a member of each team alive everyone loses.

    I think if they take the great aspects from others games that have made Arena so competitive and successful, then we could be looking at a Arena for PvP dominating for years to come same way BC / Wrath WoW did. These are just a few pointers I’ve been thinking about anyway
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  • PyrololPyrolol Member, Alpha Two
    Liniker wrote: »
    Imo there shouldn't be 5v5 or 20v20, the game is based around 8v8 arenas should be 1v1, 3v3 because those are extremely popular, and 8v8 for ranked just those 3 modes and that's it, besides that just add a custom training arena mode that people can change settings but has no rewards/ranks and there people can set whatever they want, lock it, have it set to public, set uneven numbers and even have balanced set options with optional spectator mode,

    the more arena modes you add to the game the fewer players will queue up for those, having the least amount of arena modes is the best to always have people queue'ing up for those

    There isn’t a 20v20 mode, I’ve only brought into discussion what’s been confirmed.
    So just add a “skirmish” mode for people to practice before entering ranked matches

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  • oOKingOooOKingOo Member, Alpha Two
    I don't want group finders. You have to go to an NPC either with your group or alone, so it's only "organized" groups.

    I personally think every mode should be a ranked mode.

    I think no extra arena gear or buffs/debuffs, etc., are better than having the arena feel different from the rest of the game. ESO's half damage in Cyrodiil is an example of how not to do it.

    Arena modes that are not pure duels can be fun, but then they should be focused on PvP. Again, ESO is a negative example - don't create modes where the key to winning is being the best at running away, like in ESO's Chaosball mode. I think capture the flag modes with only 1 or 2 flags are best. Don't make capture the flag ranked.

    Arenas should be bound to the area surrounding the node in which the arena was built, combining areas as the nodes improve. This way, you will fight people from your node first, and as the node progresses, you would fight people from further away. It would add a cool theme of local arena champions that fight each other later in the game. Some could have a real fan base, and at that point, it could be fun.

    For the empyre !!!
  • PyrololPyrolol Member, Alpha Two
    Agreed with most of that, except for every match should be ranked. Having a non ranked version to practice and train as a team before entering the ranked leaderboard should be considered so people don’t que and get stomped and then discouraged to continue playing Arena
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  • LudulluLudullu Member, Alpha Two
    oOLu_BuOo wrote: »
    I don't want group finders. You have to go to an NPC either with your group or alone, so it's only "organized" groups.
    Was just about to write this.

    No randos in the arena. If you want to play with randos - go find some, make a party with them and then register, but be prepared to get completely fucked by a coordinated group.
  • PyrololPyrolol Member, Alpha Two
    Yeah pretty sure I covered that in OP
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  • angelicshiyaangelicshiya Member, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    I think there should only be three forms of arena pvp, 1v1 ranked/unranked
    8v8 free-for-all (last man standing) un/ranked and 8v8 squads un/ranked. I think similar to league of legends you go from iron to challenger, in Ashes from peasant to Grand-Master, similar to professions
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  • PyrololPyrolol Member, Alpha Two
    edited February 6
    I think there should only be three forms of arena pvp, 1v1 ranked/unranked
    8v8 free-for-all (last man standing) un/ranked and 8v8 squads un/ranked. I think similar to league of legends you go from iron to challenger, in Ashes from peasant to Grand-Master, similar to professions

    Well 1v1, 3v3, 5v5 is what’s confirmed at the moment
    For anyone who has played other types of ranked game modes
    It is very daunting trying to organise 5 people let alone 8 to all jump on at the same time and coordinating that size can be kind of chaotic

    I for one am excited for 5v5 as that was one of my favourite game modes on WoW and even playing League, however 3v3 will be the most competitive imo

    EDIT: I’m excited to see what ranks they make, Ive heard that you might even get a unique title for the class you are playing if you hit a top % (however that hasn’t been fully confirmed yet)
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  • ZilgzZilgz Member, Alpha Two
    I'd echo a few callouts in regards to arena.
    Players should have to organize a team of required size prior to queuing. No random arena queue!
    Deathmatch for sure. I'd suggest other pvp formats with different systems.

    Another part of getting into the arena is having a limited number a queue spots to hop into battle. It was always nice seeing people waiting for the queue next to you in the world, then suddenly both teams join and you end up facing each other. Good banter to be had post arena.

    Brackets of 1v1, 3v3, & 5v5 - I would actually prefer 5v5 transfer into 8v8 as that is the max party size. In games where arena is 5v5 or more, it is normally a shitshow. Sure there can be strategy/comps and such to min/max, but those brackets always tended to be for fun and with friends. Increasing the reward for participating in a higher player cap arena bracket would incentivize participation as I agree with OP that more players is harder to organize.
  • joeyohknowjoeyohknow Member, Alpha Two
    An arena system has made its way to AoC? Have we not learned from pretty much every other game that isn't solely an arena-based ticket ever? It ruins games and forces balancing that might make sense in a small arena, but completely breaks how things work in the rest of the game. Or things that work great and are balanced in the rest of the game being completely broken and/or overpowered in small skirmishes.
    Do they intend to segregate abilities/stats and everything else to function and value differently between the rest of the game and the arena? If not, I'd venture to guess it's doomed from the start and I don't mind eating crow if I'm wrong but mark my words here and now.
  • PyrololPyrolol Member, Alpha Two
    You didn’t even bother reading what I originally posted, otherwise you would have seen that I already stated how to not affect other aspects of this game (including nerfing things only relevant to the Arena only)

    Alot of people enjoy competitive play, just because it might not be your cup of tea doesn’t mean others wouldn’t enjoy doing something smaller scale, more fast paced, and giving the PvPers other type of end game content other than massive scale options only

    Playing as a team has made me alot of friends along the way in various MMO’s wheather it be WoW, Eso, New World etc hell even COD brought out a ranked system and players have loved it

    I just don’t see why something btw that has been confirmed can’t be a great addition to the game
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  • NightmarelolNightmarelol Member, Alpha Two
    joeyohknow wrote: »
    An arena system has made its way to AoC? Have we not learned from pretty much every other game that isn't solely an arena-based ticket ever? It ruins games and forces balancing that might make sense in a small arena, but completely breaks how things work in the rest of the game. Or things that work great and are balanced in the rest of the game being completely broken and/or overpowered in small skirmishes.
    Do they intend to segregate abilities/stats and everything else to function and value differently between the rest of the game and the arena? If not, I'd venture to guess it's doomed from the start and I don't mind eating crow if I'm wrong but mark my words here and now.

    From what I’ve seen in nearly every single MMORPG ever released, NOT having some sort of End-Game PvP competitive play has ended up making that specific game its downfall (I.e one example was New World, people reaching max level, and having no end game PvP besides Outpost Rush which became dead very quickly: This is just one example of many)

    In terms of balancing Arena affecting everything else, Like the way WoW has done it, there’s specific changes/tweaks on spells/abilities that are ONLY affected inside the Arena, once out of the Arena that said spell/ability returns to its normal state (whether it’s less damage, or bigger CD, etc, etc)

    I’ve been active in MMOs since Vanilla World of Warcraft, Tera Online, ESO, New World, Diablo 4 plus countless others, and all I can say is, if they do this Arena system right, it might actually bring in a huge player base and a sense of Team-Play that people can make friends or play with their friends in.
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  • kuldar1994kuldar1994 Member, Alpha Two
    I personally think duos would be one of the most popular categories, so 2v2 but Id also like to see 4v4 cause as 4 people your own personal skill matters a lot while still allowing group play/synergies etc so for me 4man pvp has probably been most fun in competitive gameplay.
  • PyrololPyrolol Member, Alpha Two
    kuldar1994 wrote: »
    I personally think duos would be one of the most popular categories, so 2v2 but Id also like to see 4v4 cause as 4 people your own personal skill matters a lot while still allowing group play/synergies etc so for me 4man pvp has probably been most fun in competitive gameplay.

    Would absolutely love duo ques
    Much better then the whole 1v1 thing when we already have dueling
    Would much rather work as a team and coordinate with someone to win then just go in solo and kite the whole game

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  • NightmarelolNightmarelol Member, Alpha Two
    2v2 would be an amazing mode in Arena for Ashes and as we’ve seen it’s always one of the successful ones with Duo Ques in nearly every game that’s got the word Multiplayer in it
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  • Would like to see In Node non instanced Arenas for competitive system run bracket style tournaments that are round based Last Team Standing (3v3, 5v5, 8v8), and player run Tournaments with custom rulesets and prize pools. Custom rulesets could include game modes, class restrictions, level restrictions, gear score and team sizes. Possibly also lobby based scenarios that are instanced with Server wide queues which have a wider range of game modes and environments (Team Deathmatch, Capture the Flag, other objective based modes).
  • PyrololPyrolol Member, Alpha Two
    edited February 8
    I think they got something like that planned already with the military node arena

    I would love just a ranked 3v3 team deathmatch style arena, no objectives other then kill the other team
    Literally all I want 😂

    @Voeltz What you have described is more battlegrounds than actual Arena

    omddo1nbnu20.gif

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  • oOKingOooOKingOo Member, Alpha Two
    Pyrolol wrote: »
    Agreed with most of that, except for every match should be ranked. Having a non ranked version to practice and train as a team before entering the ranked leaderboard should be considered so people don’t que and get stomped and then discouraged to continue playing Arena

    I can agree to that, definitely. Maybe it's a bit too hardcore of a take from me. It would add real importance every time you queue up though. But you're right, it would discourage people, which is not the goal.
    For the empyre !!!
  • Pyrolol wrote: »
    I think they got something like that planned already with the military node arena

    I would love just a ranked 3v3 team deathmatch style arena, no objectives other then kill the other team
    Literally all I want 😂

    @Voeltz What you have described is more battlegrounds than actual Arena

    omddo1nbnu20.gif

    That may have been hinted at in a past discussion with Steven but nothing for sure. I try not to rely on old information that was vaguely mentioned and never again talked about in any meaningful way. I'm talking about round based Last Team Standing. TDM in most games has respawns or a ticket system, that's not what I want to see out of a competitive mode, that would be a complete joke.

    What I'm describing is true Arenas that exist in the node or open world that you can walk into, instanced or not. You're idea of an Arena seems to be a loading screen that takes you to an instance of some faraway place far removed from the open in game world. To me that is not an Arena at all. If that's what Ashes is deciding to call them, it's wrong because it's not an accurate description for one and 2 it will be confusing to have those AND Arenas in the open world like you referenced. Every game calls it something different though, In Warhammer they were called Scenarios, In WoW I believe they were called Battlegrounds. Arenas SHOULD be like what is shown in your GIF. A Gladiator Arena full of sand, a Coliseum, a sports Arena with spectators/other players. That's the definition.

  • PyrololPyrolol Member, Alpha Two
    edited February 11
    When i say team death match I 100% agree it should be no respawns, I think I wrote that in the first post (it should be 1 life in the arena unless resurrected)

    What you wrote sounds like the military node

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    I was talking more so for end game content and team based Arena to give a competitive game mode, which minimises the que spams (because you’re waiting for your team to log on) so you will be out in the world a lot still experiencing what Ashes has to offer or even in between que times

    The aspect your talking about I believe has been also confirmed, 20man free for all battlegrounds, they could add a 8v8 type battlegrounds later on i guess, but these were more un ranked modes.

    Instanced Arena is confirmed on there wiki page, makes it a bit fairer and no outside interruptions on the players competing in the Arena
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  • Arya_Yeshe wrote: »
    I have more practical concerns due to past experiences in other games:
    • afk player in the spawn
    • player disconnects
    • the team is a complete mess and there's no way to call a timeout
    • team member is just running around like a gofus and not even fighting
    • player ragequits in the middle of a match even tough he was the worst player in the team

    I think this says more about your choice of team mate than the arena.

    Just kidding, relax.

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    The stranger's eyes lifted to the blood red cloud on the horizon.

    'We have to move. It's not safe here.'
  • CadacCadac Member, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    I wonder if there will be any distinction made between PUG groups vs Premade, for matchmaking, and rewards.
  • KingDDDKingDDD Member, Alpha Two
    Probably should nix the 3s and 5s in favor of 8s. You cant balance classes around all the various types of pvp, adding more settings is a bad choice.
  • PyrololPyrolol Member, Alpha Two
    edited February 12
    KingDDD wrote: »
    Probably should nix the 3s and 5s in favor of 8s. You cant balance classes around all the various types of pvp, adding more settings is a bad choice.

    It's worked in other MMO's that have 3v3 Arena
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  • KingDDDKingDDD Member, Alpha Two
    Pyrolol wrote: »
    KingDDD wrote: »
    Probably should nix the 3s and 5s in favor of 8s. You cant balance classes around all the various types of pvp, adding more settings is a bad choice.

    It's worked in other MMO's that have 3v3 Arena

    Are you using wow as an example of that? Wows 5s were notoriously terrible for balance due to the games cc damage and defensives all being tied around 3vs3. Wow as a game just didn't scale well in terms of combatant numbers. Things like target caps, cc drs, heal overlaps aren't doable in a small arena AND an ever scaling open world.

    You could make classes work differently in each setting but that's a rather obtuse way to solve an unnecessary problem.
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  • PyrololPyrolol Member, Alpha Two
    edited February 13
    “Arena features two teams fighting each other in gladiator style combat to the death in a compact environment with no respawns unless resurrected by there team. The combatants who are left standing in the end win. There are both rated and unrated variants of this mode, with the former providing various rewards for winning. Arena’s simple premise and strong focus, reinforced by a few special rules, creates a unique gameplay experience that requires players to adjust their strategies and work as a team to win”
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