I think an 8v8 is a must for the arenas. That is the group size and it is what a lot of content will be designed around. It's what people will see and experience in the open world in the dungeons and other group based content. The arenas are a place for people to practice that. WoW had 5v5 because that was the group size, not because 5 is some magic number. DAoC had 8-man groups and there was a well-respected and lively scene around 8v8 in RvR, so it's been done before with success.
I have more practical concerns due to past experiences in other games:
afk player in the spawn
player disconnects
the team is a complete mess and there's no way to call a timeout
team member is just running around like a gofus and not even fighting
player ragequits in the middle of a match even tough he was the worst player in the team
I think this says more about your choice of team mate than the arena.
Just kidding, relax.
Most matches happen by a match making system, we don't get toe choose unless it's an official tournament and you have a full team
Etc, matchmaking should give the option to blacklist people you don't like so you will never have to be in the same team as the person unless you agree. Depending on the game there's afk farmers in arena matches too
PvE means: A handful of coins and a bag of boredom.
I have more practical concerns due to past experiences in other games:
afk player in the spawn
player disconnects
the team is a complete mess and there's no way to call a timeout
team member is just running around like a gofus and not even fighting
player ragequits in the middle of a match even tough he was the worst player in the team
I think this says more about your choice of team mate than the arena.
Just kidding, relax.
Most matches happen by a match making system, we don't get toe choose unless it's an official tournament and you have a full team
Etc, matchmaking should give the option to blacklist people you don't like so you will never have to be in the same team as the person unless you agree. Depending on the game there's afk farmers in arena matches too
Says teams to vs teams in a matchmaking system so that to me says you que as a premade team
I have mentioned earlier about the issues with bigger team sizes so have a read previously
- Confirmed is a ladder system, ranked rewards per season with titles, cosmetics only is perfect
I think this is a mistake, regarding such poor rewards.
My opinion is that in a PVP game, players should be able to strengthen their character not only through PVE, but also through PVP, and the reward for PVP should be comparable in complexity and time costs as in PVE.
Objectively, why are session games such a success now?
That’s simply because a huge number of people are tired of the constant endless grind.
And it would be much better if you could do what you like, for example - PVP, and get a comparable amount of rewards for it compared to tedious PVE.
- Confirmed is a ladder system, ranked rewards per season with titles, cosmetics only is perfect
I think this is a mistake, regarding such poor rewards.
My opinion is that in a PVP game, players should be able to strengthen their character not only through PVE, but also through PVP, and the reward for PVP should be comparable in complexity and time costs as in PVE.
Objectively, why are session games such a success now?
That’s simply because a huge number of people are tired of the constant endless grind.
And it would be much better if you could do what you like, for example - PVP, and get a comparable amount of rewards for it compared to tedious PVE.
Agreed, at the moment gear rewards aren’t confirmed yet, however as the game progresses I’m hoping they add it in later seasons cause it makes sense same as how hardcore PvE'rs get rewarded for there efforts
Some people enjoy doing a scripted raid and rinse & repeat, others enjoy the fast paced competitive action of a 3v3 arena with team coordination & quick decision making
I'm wandering if we will be able to eventually experience a prototype of the Arena in Alpha 2 like the one they did for PAX
Probably should nix the 3s and 5s in favor of 8s. You cant balance classes around all the various types of pvp, adding more settings is a bad choice.
It's worked in other MMO's that have 3v3 Arena
Are you using wow as an example of that? Wows 5s were notoriously terrible for balance due to the games cc damage and defensives all being tied around 3vs3. Wow as a game just didn't scale well in terms of combatant numbers. Things like target caps, cc drs, heal overlaps aren't doable in a small arena AND an ever scaling open world.
You could make classes work differently in each setting but that's a rather obtuse way to solve an unnecessary problem.
But, you have to admit (stats are there), WoW has dominated the MMORPG Scene in both PvE and PvP for the last 20 odd years. There is literally nothing else out there that has come even remotely close to WoW's reign (espically during TBC / Wrath ). So you gotta give credit where credit is due they had the right formula, so what if (and hear me out here), Ashes of Creation TOOK that winning formula and made it even better? Imagine the kind of PvX game Ashes could become. I would go as far as saying it would be the WoW Killer of this generation.
Probably should nix the 3s and 5s in favor of 8s. You cant balance classes around all the various types of pvp, adding more settings is a bad choice.
It's worked in other MMO's that have 3v3 Arena
Are you using wow as an example of that? Wows 5s were notoriously terrible for balance due to the games cc damage and defensives all being tied around 3vs3. Wow as a game just didn't scale well in terms of combatant numbers. Things like target caps, cc drs, heal overlaps aren't doable in a small arena AND an ever scaling open world.
You could make classes work differently in each setting but that's a rather obtuse way to solve an unnecessary problem.
But, you have to admit (stats are there), WoW has dominated the MMORPG Scene in both PvE and PvP for the last 20 odd years. There is literally nothing else out there that has come even remotely close to WoW's reign (espically during TBC / Wrath ). So you gotta give credit where credit is due they had the right formula, so what if (and hear me out here), Ashes of Creation TOOK that winning formula and made it even better? Imagine the kind of PvX game Ashes could become. I would go as far as saying it would be the WoW Killer of this generation.
That's a no brainer, I'd love for ashes to take the WoW 3s formula (and moba fight design) making it for both 8vs8 and ZvsZ.
The point I'm making is that its already difficult to balance any game, let alone balancing for 8 or so game modes. The imbalanced modes end up either:
A losing rewards (like wow)
B no one engages in them or
C balance patches come out so frequently that a meta cannot form and characters end up bricked
I'm all for people having a variety of content they find fun to engage in. However, I'd rather not see them shoot for the moon and end up hitting themselves in the face.
I have more practical concerns due to past experiences in other games:
afk player in the spawn
player disconnects
the team is a complete mess and there's no way to call a timeout
team member is just running around like a gofus and not even fighting
player ragequits in the middle of a match even tough he was the worst player in the team
I think this says more about your choice of team mate than the arena.
Just kidding, relax.
Most matches happen by a match making system, we don't get toe choose unless it's an official tournament and you have a full team
Etc, matchmaking should give the option to blacklist people you don't like so you will never have to be in the same team as the person unless you agree. Depending on the game there's afk farmers in arena matches too
Says teams to vs teams in a matchmaking system so that to me says you que as a premade team
I have mentioned earlier about the issues with bigger team sizes so have a read previously
I believe it will be a matchmaking of teams + randoms since many people don't have a team or their team is not online at that momment. Don't expect yo boys to be online at all times
One possibility would be forming a team by using a team/party search and then as a party they will go in the arena, that would be fine if you can blacklist people once they get in there and afk, so then you never team up with them again
PvE means: A handful of coins and a bag of boredom.
I have more practical concerns due to past experiences in other games:
afk player in the spawn
player disconnects
the team is a complete mess and there's no way to call a timeout
team member is just running around like a gofus and not even fighting
player ragequits in the middle of a match even tough he was the worst player in the team
I think this says more about your choice of team mate than the arena.
Just kidding, relax.
Most matches happen by a match making system, we don't get toe choose unless it's an official tournament and you have a full team
Etc, matchmaking should give the option to blacklist people you don't like so you will never have to be in the same team as the person unless you agree. Depending on the game there's afk farmers in arena matches too
Says teams to vs teams in a matchmaking system so that to me says you que as a premade team
I have mentioned earlier about the issues with bigger team sizes so have a read previously
I believe it will be a matchmaking of teams + randoms since many people don't have a team or their team is not online at that momment
Don't expect yo boys to be online at all times
For an E-Sports event it would have to be premade teams
An E-Sports event is once a year completely separate to the game
For the in-game Arena I read somewhere that it will be premade but cant find the quote of it because I believe they want to encourage players socializing to find or join teams, wheather it be the in open world, nodes or tavens etc
Problem is 5s don't account for the class design in ashes. Support, heals, and tanks take up 3-5 of the necessary slots for organized predetermined pvp. Throw in different archetype specs and you have a recipe for class is unplayable in 3s, dogshit in 5s, meh in 8s, and necessary in zergs. This system will make ret paladins circa 2006 seem like the mentally toughest individuals ever to walk the earth.
It just doesn't add up for smaller numbers of players.
Problem is 5s don't account for the class design in ashes. Support, heals, and tanks take up 3-5 of the necessary slots for organized predetermined pvp. Throw in different archetype specs and you have a recipe for class is unplayable in 3s, dogshit in 5s, meh in 8s, and necessary in zergs. This system will make ret paladins circa 2006 seem like the mentally toughest individuals ever to walk the earth.
It just doesn't add up for smaller numbers of players.
I assume it will have to be aug builds, talents, team compositions and gear that play a big part in it
1, 3 & 5man is what is already confirmed and what was showcased at PAX so they obviously have thought this through and gone with this style as it is the most popular.
It was a nightmare trying to get all 5 people online for 5v5 back in the day it will be way worse trying to wait for 7 others to log in so i disagree on having an 8v8.
3v3 can be balanced you are just taking it too literal. there will always be a meta (someone will figure it out) with month patch updates and 6 monthly seasons the meta will shift even for PvE'rs
There is a way to balance 3v3 Arena, there is a reason it is the most famous and popular, easy to get 2 other mates online and then balance accordingly if it needs, or just play with the hand that's been dealt
Note: I've already mentioned this previously, the balance changes can occur for (Arena only) patch notes and have zero affect on the rest of the world.
"Our class composition and design revolves around a Holy Trinity" - Steven Sharif
Problem is 5s don't account for the class design in ashes. Support, heals, and tanks take up 3-5 of the necessary slots for organized predetermined pvp. Throw in different archetype specs and you have a recipe for class is unplayable in 3s, dogshit in 5s, meh in 8s, and necessary in zergs. This system will make ret paladins circa 2006 seem like the mentally toughest individuals ever to walk the earth.
It just doesn't add up for smaller numbers of players.
I assume it will have to be aug builds, talents, team compositions and gear that play a big part in it
1, 3 & 5man is what is already confirmed and what was showcased at PAX so they obviously have thought this through and gone with this style as it is the most popular.
It was a nightmare trying to get all 5 people online for 5v5 back in the day it will be way worse trying to wait for 7 others to log in so i disagree on having an 8v8.
3v3 can be balanced you are just taking it too literal. there will always be a meta (someone will figure it out) with month patch updates and 6 monthly seasons the meta will shift even for PvE'rs
There is a way to balance 3v3 Arena, there is a reason it is the most famous and popular, easy to get 2 other mates online and then balance accordingly if it needs, or just play with the hand that's been dealt
Note: I've already mentioned this previously, the balance changes can occur for (Arena only) patch notes and have zero affect on the rest of the world.
"Our class composition and design revolves around a Holy Trinity" - Steven Sharif
The stuff at PAX from 5+ years ago isn't relevant. Everything from the camera positioning to the actual combat itself is vastly different from what the game is currently.
As someone who hit glad in 5s when "wow dominated" the pvp scene, I can tell you it wasn't bad to find 4 other people. With servers in ashes having 2-3 times the capacity as vanilla wow servers, finding people won't be an issue as long as the game isn't bleeding population.
While there will always be some form of meta and 3s indeed can be balanced, ashes class design cannot be viable in 2s, 3s, 5s, 8s, zergs in addition to various forms of pve. This game won't have abilities shift based on content as it just won't work for the ever-shifting design of the game. Arenas will have to exist within the confines of the rest of the game.
It’s already been confirmed that the Arena will have
1v1, 3v3 & 5v5
The only bracket higher than that is probably a 20 man FFA which sounds more like a battleground style BR then an actual arena
I disagree of having any higher than the brackets stated, it will just be a cluster and leave the 8man party’s for everything else and give this game a bit of variety of having something different and also having too many brackets diminishes the ranking system
With what Intrepid have brought out so far I’m going to roll the dice and assume that they got this and know what there doing
The last time i played 5v5 and you could get Gladiator in it was when you had to be part of an Arena team and sign up to it, you could only play as part of that team so yeah probably just a different expac
To be honest one of my points on here was to get rid of the whole LFG and actually go out into Vera to make friends and find a team to que with or join some people you recently fought with etc which is the direction i assume there heading towards
Regardless ranked 3v3 will always be the most popular as it is in most games
Apex, cod, eso, rocket, destiny, warzone and wow just to name a few
Life finds a way
- Time limit in Arena vs Circle of Fire/Gas closing in?
- Game Mode Deathmatch no respawns team vs team? Thoughts on this style of Arena?
- 3v3 Compositions
(healer / dps / dps)
(healer / off heal / dps)
(Off heal / off tank / dps)
Should there be a limit on healers?
- For 5v5 (same as 3v3) should there be a limit on tanks and healers to stop long drawn out games of max time limit 5 tanks vs 5 healers etc etc?
- MMR / SBMM ranking systems for ques?
(So for example 🟤 Bronze / 🔘 Silver / 🟡 Gold / 🟢 Platinum / 🔵 Diamond / 🟣 Master / 🔴 Rank 1
Should the MMR in a game affect how many points you get for winning/losing in that match?
- Cross-Server ques or should Arena stay sever based? Or even a Battlegroup style with multiple servers in the same division?
- Titles for coming first for your specific class or for your team, as well as reaching a certain top % in your server (or across multiple servers if Battlegroups become a thing)?
- Should there be a Soft Reset or Hard Reset every season (only go down for example 2 divisions or a complete reset back to start off rank)?
These are some open group discussions I’d like to get some feed back, thoughts, tweaks, ideas even on what people would like to see/do in the Arena
Oooh, I don’t mind the sound of that actually
So like a better enhancement that like glows and shows other players like “yep, they up there 👆”
Potentially, yeah. I'd be totally fine if pve and pvp instanced stuff rewarded the same enhancement stuff, which simply looked different so that people can show off their skills. And it'd be awesome if we could even combine them to have a third type of visual, for the true skilled players.
Oooh, I don’t mind the sound of that actually
So like a better enhancement that like glows and shows other players like “yep, they up there 👆”
Potentially, yeah. I'd be totally fine if pve and pvp instanced stuff rewarded the same enhancement stuff, which simply looked different so that people can show off their skills. And it'd be awesome if we could even combine them to have a third type of visual, for the true skilled players.
I loved the armoured version of mounts for hitting a top % at the end of the season along with the title you received, looked awesome and used to definitely turn some heads
Top raiding PvE’rs got these mounts too just without the armour so their was a way to tell the difference between them but knowing these people who had these mounts achieved some high content
I meaaaan, that shit did give Oly Weapons, and in the early versions those were quite nice and quite op, so not quite L2 oly, but yeah, relatively close.
Or were you talking about Pyro? Cause those oly weapons is exactly why I'd prefer if Ashes didn't have that.
Oooh, I don’t mind the sound of that actually
So like a better enhancement that like glows and shows other players like “yep, they up there 👆”
Potentially, yeah. I'd be totally fine if pve and pvp instanced stuff rewarded the same enhancement stuff, which simply looked different so that people can show off their skills. And it'd be awesome if we could even combine them to have a third type of visual, for the true skilled players.
I loved the armoured version of mounts for hitting a top % at the end of the season along with the title you received, looked awesome and used to definitely turn some heads
Top raiding PvE’rs got these mounts too just without the armour so their was a way to tell the difference between them but knowing these people who had these mounts achieved some high content
Arena
Raiding
But we can’t fly in Ashes, so is this for gliding mounts?
I meaaaan, that shit did give Oly Weapons, and in the early versions those were quite nice and quite op, so not quite L2 oly, but yeah, relatively close.
Or were you talking about Pyro? Cause those oly weapons is exactly why I'd prefer if Ashes didn't have that.
Even just for one slight upgrade?
You will still need to gear your character 90% in other means, raiding, dungeons, world events, crafting etc
But you won’t allow PvPers who hit a certain high skill cap rating to get just one upgrade for their efforts?
Comments
Most matches happen by a match making system, we don't get toe choose unless it's an official tournament and you have a full team
Etc, matchmaking should give the option to blacklist people you don't like so you will never have to be in the same team as the person unless you agree. Depending on the game there's afk farmers in arena matches too
Says teams to vs teams in a matchmaking system so that to me says you que as a premade team
I have mentioned earlier about the issues with bigger team sizes so have a read previously
I think this is a mistake, regarding such poor rewards.
My opinion is that in a PVP game, players should be able to strengthen their character not only through PVE, but also through PVP, and the reward for PVP should be comparable in complexity and time costs as in PVE.
Objectively, why are session games such a success now?
That’s simply because a huge number of people are tired of the constant endless grind.
And it would be much better if you could do what you like, for example - PVP, and get a comparable amount of rewards for it compared to tedious PVE.
Agreed, at the moment gear rewards aren’t confirmed yet, however as the game progresses I’m hoping they add it in later seasons cause it makes sense same as how hardcore PvE'rs get rewarded for there efforts
Some people enjoy doing a scripted raid and rinse & repeat, others enjoy the fast paced competitive action of a 3v3 arena with team coordination & quick decision making
I'm wandering if we will be able to eventually experience a prototype of the Arena in Alpha 2 like the one they did for PAX
But, you have to admit (stats are there), WoW has dominated the MMORPG Scene in both PvE and PvP for the last 20 odd years. There is literally nothing else out there that has come even remotely close to WoW's reign (espically during TBC / Wrath ). So you gotta give credit where credit is due they had the right formula, so what if (and hear me out here), Ashes of Creation TOOK that winning formula and made it even better? Imagine the kind of PvX game Ashes could become. I would go as far as saying it would be the WoW Killer of this generation.
That's a no brainer, I'd love for ashes to take the WoW 3s formula (and moba fight design) making it for both 8vs8 and ZvsZ.
The point I'm making is that its already difficult to balance any game, let alone balancing for 8 or so game modes. The imbalanced modes end up either:
A losing rewards (like wow)
B no one engages in them or
C balance patches come out so frequently that a meta cannot form and characters end up bricked
I'm all for people having a variety of content they find fun to engage in. However, I'd rather not see them shoot for the moon and end up hitting themselves in the face.
I believe it will be a matchmaking of teams + randoms since many people don't have a team or their team is not online at that momment. Don't expect yo boys to be online at all times
One possibility would be forming a team by using a team/party search and then as a party they will go in the arena, that would be fine if you can blacklist people once they get in there and afk, so then you never team up with them again
For an E-Sports event it would have to be premade teams
An E-Sports event is once a year completely separate to the game
For the in-game Arena I read somewhere that it will be premade but cant find the quote of it because I believe they want to encourage players socializing to find or join teams, wheather it be the in open world, nodes or tavens etc
Problem is 5s don't account for the class design in ashes. Support, heals, and tanks take up 3-5 of the necessary slots for organized predetermined pvp. Throw in different archetype specs and you have a recipe for class is unplayable in 3s, dogshit in 5s, meh in 8s, and necessary in zergs. This system will make ret paladins circa 2006 seem like the mentally toughest individuals ever to walk the earth.
It just doesn't add up for smaller numbers of players.
I assume it will have to be aug builds, talents, team compositions and gear that play a big part in it
1, 3 & 5man is what is already confirmed and what was showcased at PAX so they obviously have thought this through and gone with this style as it is the most popular.
It was a nightmare trying to get all 5 people online for 5v5 back in the day it will be way worse trying to wait for 7 others to log in so i disagree on having an 8v8.
3v3 can be balanced you are just taking it too literal. there will always be a meta (someone will figure it out) with month patch updates and 6 monthly seasons the meta will shift even for PvE'rs
There is a way to balance 3v3 Arena, there is a reason it is the most famous and popular, easy to get 2 other mates online and then balance accordingly if it needs, or just play with the hand that's been dealt
Note: I've already mentioned this previously, the balance changes can occur for (Arena only) patch notes and have zero affect on the rest of the world.
"Our class composition and design revolves around a Holy Trinity" - Steven Sharif
The stuff at PAX from 5+ years ago isn't relevant. Everything from the camera positioning to the actual combat itself is vastly different from what the game is currently.
As someone who hit glad in 5s when "wow dominated" the pvp scene, I can tell you it wasn't bad to find 4 other people. With servers in ashes having 2-3 times the capacity as vanilla wow servers, finding people won't be an issue as long as the game isn't bleeding population.
While there will always be some form of meta and 3s indeed can be balanced, ashes class design cannot be viable in 2s, 3s, 5s, 8s, zergs in addition to various forms of pve. This game won't have abilities shift based on content as it just won't work for the ever-shifting design of the game. Arenas will have to exist within the confines of the rest of the game.
1v1, 3v3 & 5v5
The only bracket higher than that is probably a 20 man FFA which sounds more like a battleground style BR then an actual arena
I disagree of having any higher than the brackets stated, it will just be a cluster and leave the 8man party’s for everything else and give this game a bit of variety of having something different and also having too many brackets diminishes the ranking system
With what Intrepid have brought out so far I’m going to roll the dice and assume that they got this and know what there doing
The last time i played 5v5 and you could get Gladiator in it was when you had to be part of an Arena team and sign up to it, you could only play as part of that team so yeah probably just a different expac
To be honest one of my points on here was to get rid of the whole LFG and actually go out into Vera to make friends and find a team to que with or join some people you recently fought with etc which is the direction i assume there heading towards
Regardless ranked 3v3 will always be the most popular as it is in most games
Apex, cod, eso, rocket, destiny, warzone and wow just to name a few
Life finds a way
- Time limit in Arena vs Circle of Fire/Gas closing in?
- Game Mode Deathmatch no respawns team vs team? Thoughts on this style of Arena?
- 3v3 Compositions
(healer / dps / dps)
(healer / off heal / dps)
(Off heal / off tank / dps)
Should there be a limit on healers?
- For 5v5 (same as 3v3) should there be a limit on tanks and healers to stop long drawn out games of max time limit 5 tanks vs 5 healers etc etc?
- MMR / SBMM ranking systems for ques?
(So for example 🟤 Bronze / 🔘 Silver / 🟡 Gold / 🟢 Platinum / 🔵 Diamond / 🟣 Master / 🔴 Rank 1
Should the MMR in a game affect how many points you get for winning/losing in that match?
- Cross-Server ques or should Arena stay sever based? Or even a Battlegroup style with multiple servers in the same division?
- Titles for coming first for your specific class or for your team, as well as reaching a certain top % in your server (or across multiple servers if Battlegroups become a thing)?
- Should there be a Soft Reset or Hard Reset every season (only go down for example 2 divisions or a complete reset back to start off rank)?
These are some open group discussions I’d like to get some feed back, thoughts, tweaks, ideas even on what people would like to see/do in the Arena
How about just a better weapon
For hitting a certain rating
Surely that’s not asking for too much 😂
Oooh, I don’t mind the sound of that actually
So like a better enhancement that like glows and shows other players like “yep, they up there 👆”
I loved the armoured version of mounts for hitting a top % at the end of the season along with the title you received, looked awesome and used to definitely turn some heads
Top raiding PvE’rs got these mounts too just without the armour so their was a way to tell the difference between them but knowing these people who had these mounts achieved some high content
Arena
Raiding
he literally just described l2 olys lol
Or were you talking about Pyro? Cause those oly weapons is exactly why I'd prefer if Ashes didn't have that.
No, more like for the ground mounts
Along these lines
Even just for one slight upgrade?
You will still need to gear your character 90% in other means, raiding, dungeons, world events, crafting etc
But you won’t allow PvPers who hit a certain high skill cap rating to get just one upgrade for their efforts?