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Should Quests Take You to Level Cap?
Vissox
Member, Alpha Two
In modern MMOs, we don't really grind the last levels anymore, but in older games we had to. I can't say I have much of a preference but I want to see what other people think. I do like grinding mobs for XP, and those last levels definitely feel a lot more rewarding if good XP sources are harder to come by. (Or if the good XP quests are harder to do or required a group in the late levels.) Anyways, what do you guys think?
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Comments
Depends on the quality of the quests.
Future Crafting Plans: Herbalism > Alchemy & Scribe or Mining > Metalworking > Jewel cutting (Pending)
This is borderline impossible and that's what's annoying about it.
The whole 'problem' with questing for exp being too heavy an option is that it can create a game where all the periods where you have this option are periods where the specific skills and build of your character are diminished in favor of your ability to follow directions (not all quests, but certainly in a game where there are enough quests for this and the average player is expected to be able to clear them).
Players with higher skill at organization, gearing and therefore killing strong mobs obviously level faster. Players with better mounts, guides/reading comprehension, and therefore clearing quests, level faster.
The latter one usually wins simply because it allows people who don't have time to devote to 'learning to play their class well' to get higher level first and then worry about that. Which also makes it the most efficient method for nearly everyone (since the mob-killer type can't usually get the quest exp once they hit the cap and therefore should always just do the quests too).
XPs are a nice bonus. But, if the quest was about killing 15 bears, you got the XPs for killing 15 bears. Grinding in disguise.
So I would prefer quests and story based leveling to be optional.
While you certaintly could get to max level with quests only, (if you go out of your way to do that) Ashes are designers certainly not tasked to build content or quests for level 46 that give 79,4% of the xp you need to get to level 47.
It just not that linear and quest hub like.
I think there are 2 reasons for that.
There is progression and content gates that develop the world-> nodes, which means every player will encounter a different set of content dependent of where they are or when they join the game.
And secondly there a lot of sandbox activities that accompany you throughout the journey, like caravans, pvp, crafting, housing, building up your node and ancillary systems and so on. You will be drawn into these activities a lot imo.
I´d be surprised if quests are the source for more than 25% of the xp accumulated for the average player.
Quests should always be available. The holy grail of the ever Quest.
These days, though...
I'm finding that Battlepass tasks work as well as, if not better than, Quests.
@Vissox
Sounds like you want to be able to easily Solo to Max Level?
Grinding is when you're gaining minimal xp only from killing individual mobs or picking flowers or mining, etc.
Gamers rushing to share spoilers in pursuit of the META is the bane of a static Themepark MMO in the Internet Age.
In other words, the XPing part should be equal, but the rewards are different. Given how Ashes' gearing seems to be working - quests might lvl you up, but you won't be able to kill shit, cause you won't have gear at that high lvl.
Of course there's a chance that you get a ton of money through quests, but then it's a balancing issue onto itself, and money won't = gear, if you're one of the first to go through the quest-lvling, because you'd be way further ahead of others.
And of course, depending on how quests even work, it might be that the optimal way is to do quest AND grind mobs along the way.
I'm used to interacting with people who wouldn't consider this to be balanced, that's where our priors don't match.
What would your group consider a "good design" for quest rewards, given what we know of AoC's gearing?
We know something about AoC's gearing?
I expect if I ask, they'll have a response that 'challenges' that 'assumption' first. Or, most likely, ask me why I, as their Econ person, am even asking them.
Probably best to leave it for a while until the thread gets the rest of the desired opinions. I can tell you that FFXI players in general didn't 'quest' for anything in particular other than the experience of doing the quest or Reputation/fame.
As said in some other thread recently, we pick up these games 'to have an adventure and progress a little at the end of each'. I guess that's enough of an answer for now? A quest should be an adventure in itself, and if the process of doing it doesn't reward about a level/half level of exp, then maybe it should give a half-decent gear piece.
That's not what you're asking, but maybe it'll do until later.
I mean okay, through all the Years i also hit Maxlevel a few Times with Quests. But i am always reminding the nearly endless grinds. Like in WoW Vanilla, lol.
✓ Occasional Roleplayer
✓ Kinda starting to look for a Guild right now. (German)
It's hard to judge since we are not talking about a theme park mmo.
But using that context: Using only one method could get you most of the way. However, you would leave a little out to make the players explore at least a few different aspects of your game along the way.
However, that quest line should have many situations where players are presented with other activities (harvesting, processing, crafting, running trade routes, glint, building a boat etc), so that if they want to deviate from the path they can.
Grinding mobs should be faster in terms of experience gain than questing, but should have almost no gear directly associated with it. However, if a player opts to grind for experience, they can use the coin they have (likely largely from glint) to buy gear that is on par or slightly better than what they would have obtained from following the quest line.
This is what most games I have played have done for the last 15 or so years - and older games have been changed to basically follow this. it seems to be the accepted middle ground that gives players the most viable options.
I agree, and you could definitely factor things like npc xp to subtract from the xp budget of a quest. I don't expect that anyone is going to grind the entire way to level cap. I think a good game would let you choose what you prefer but still supplement with one or the other while keeping up efficiency.
Do you think that some (progression/story)quests should be impossible to solo until you upgrade your gear? I think hitting a wall where you have to work on crafting/acquiring better gear can give players a break and relieve the urgency that everyone gets when they are trying to get ahead of the level curve.
Do caravans actually give xp? I was under the impression that was a more economic feature.
By design, Ashes is balanced for an 8-person group.
They give some progression as an attacker or defender but no XP as far as I know.
3 months more to dream and hope.
Use item quest, discover area quest, crafting quests, there are constellation quests, get quest item quests (not always the same as a resource) kill X players quests, talk to X npc quests, ect.
I REALLY hope they get some amazing quest-lines made for the game. Quality over quantity always. Comissions are great for those who like to do the simple kill/gather quest grinds, but in a perfect (game) world, I think we should be able to level to max doing only cool, interesting quests of both the solo and group kind, and of course the story-lines.
Yeah for sure. I would definitely like to see some leveling walls in place that require me to engage with the player economy in some way in order to progress.
I don't want the quests to provide all of my leveling gear. FFXIV and SWTOR both do this and it makes leveling feel hollow. I didn't have to do anything, it just handed everything to me. Not a good experience.
My opinion is that quests like this should exist as one of those other activities I mentioned above.
It should be presented to players as "if you get some friends together and do this thing, the rewards will be large".
I can also see them adding group quests where if you complete it, you can skip a few hours of the solo quest chain - so it acts as a shortcut.
The thing to keep in mind with leveling quests though, is that after even as little as a few months after launch, you can't guarantee people will have others leveling with them. The leveling process needs to be built (long term, at least) with solo players in mind the whole way through.
Or alternatively to have all kinds of mobs give so much XP that I can truly feel like quests are not everything.
In WoW Vanilla I remember how I leveld up to lvl.55 by doing quests.
And people said there was only enough quest-XP in the game up to lvl.58.
And that was only IF you also killed mobs in the world in the meantime of course.
But I powerleveled the last 5 levels while ignoring all quests. And not because I liked it.
Simply because I lost my patience, the whole progress was so slow I grew bored to hell
I think this is pretty much... yeah... 20 years later irl.
AND I STILL REMEMBER HOW GOD AWFUL SLOW IT WAS - this is how much I remember bad experiences in games that I actually enjoy. *sigh*
Dunno how Ashes will handle that. But I hope that either quests give lots of XP or the "braindead" variante of just dyeing the ground of Verra red with all the XP creatures blood.
If people wanna go slow that is okay.
That is up to them.
But I be honest here I will take all the shortcuts I can find.
Other people can powder their ego with stupid stuff I don't care about like doing things "the tough way".
Like playing a FromSoftware game without a shield & blocking, using a twohanded weapon probably and dying three up to eight times as much as I did in the entire playthrough.
Just because they wanna feel like badasses. Gods I hope all those streamers suffer more than they show. ^^