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Rogue stealth/invisibility. How would you design it?

Basically the title. I hear alot of mmo players aren't too fond of true invisibility/stealth. Thoughts?
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Comments

  • AzheraeAzherae Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Fully invisible down to around mid thighs, fading in to about 50% at feet.

    Assuming people don't want full stealth.

    In my experience the 'distortion' type stealth doesn't work well enough because of how human vision works, but hiding the upper body changes the shape of the thing the mind is reacting to, which seems to have some effect.
    ♪ One Gummy Fish, two Gummy Fish, Red Gummy Fish, Blue Gummy Fish
  • LudulluLudullu Member, Alpha Two
    I'm used to full stealth that's broken by aoes. So I'd go for that, because I liked what kind of situations that led to.
  • GithalGithal Member
    Well for me - full invisible should be only for few seconds (like 10 max),
    And the permanent should be visible when close
  • CROW3CROW3 Member, Alpha Two
    I’m good with WoW stealth / camouflage.

    The only change I would make is to force specification into stealth to make it harder to detect (e.g. full invis). Low spec stealth would be much easier to see and shoot.
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  • arsnnarsnn Member, Intrepid Pack, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    edited May 7
    Full invis until like 3-4 meters.
    Makes it a cat and mouse game.

    ->Rogue has to keep his distance if he wants to remain uncovered.
    ->Opponents have move around in unexpected patterns or use mobility to uncover the rogue.

    Maybe even add an indicator for the 3-7 meters range, that tells the opponent a rogue is close by.
  • SettiteSettite Member
    Azherae wrote: »
    Fully invisible down to around mid thighs, fading in to about 50% at feet.

    Assuming people don't want full stealth.

    In my experience the 'distortion' type stealth doesn't work well enough because of how human vision works, but hiding the upper body changes the shape of the thing the mind is reacting to, which seems to have some effect.

    That sounds interesting. Do any games currently implement it in this way? I'd imagine it'd work well in places with more ground clutter but less so in a desert.
    NiKr wrote: »
    I'm used to full stealth that's broken by aoes. So I'd go for that, because I liked what kind of situations that led to.

    I agree in this regard. I come from eso primarily and I personally didn't have any complaints with it.
    CROW3 wrote: »
    I’m good with WoW stealth / camouflage.

    The only change I would make is to force specification into stealth to make it harder to detect (e.g. full invis). Low spec stealth would be much easier to see and shoot.

    I'd like the ability to hard spec into invis. Obviously you'd take losses in other aspects to make it fair.
  • Arya_YesheArya_Yeshe Member
    For a skill tree in this area, begin with the most basic skill: fading at night and walk, much later on progress to stealth jogging during the day. Within a range of 10 feet, would give a 3-second timer for the rogue to either step away or engage; failure to do so will automatically uncloak them
    PvE means: A handful of coins and a bag of boredom.
  • Individuated SoulIndividuated Soul Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    edited May 8
    Full stealth. Perception levels vs stealth levels = undetected range just like in WoW Classic. Idk about vision cone interaction. Probably the part that would need testing.
    jfpdwtk
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  • DiamahtDiamaht Member, Braver of Worlds, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Settite wrote: »
    Basically the title. I hear alot of mmo players aren't too fond of true invisibility/stealth. Thoughts?

    Im ready for a game without full invisibility. I actually like the distortion mechanic Intrepid is using and look forward to testing it.

    Its a refreshing change from total invisibility. Classes using this kind of distortion have to still be concerned about detection, as they should be.
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Full Invisibility with high Dex vs high Perception.
  • OtrOtr Member, Alpha Two
    Dygz wrote: »
    Full Invisibility with high Dex vs high Perception.

    Should mobs have high perception?
  • OtrOtr Member, Alpha Two
    I would prefer full invisibility during night when moon is covered by clouds, away from light sources, while not moving or moving slowly.
    I would prefer also ability to change weather, cast fog, darkness...
    And to have illusion spells and clones.
  • SettiteSettite Member
    Diamaht wrote: »
    Settite wrote: »
    Basically the title. I hear alot of mmo players aren't too fond of true invisibility/stealth. Thoughts?

    Im ready for a game without full invisibility. I actually like the distortion mechanic Intrepid is using and look forward to testing it.

    Its a refreshing change from total invisibility. Classes using this kind of distortion have to still be concerned about detection, as they should be.

    My issue with distortion is once the game has been out for a bit it will no longer be difficult to notice. I believe the average player would get use to it very quickly. I believe distortion is fine for the ranger but personally I think full invisibility should live within the rogue.
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Otr wrote: »
    Should mobs have high perception?
    Some mobs should have high Perception, of course.
  • VoeltzVoeltz Member
    Stealth like Elites have in Halo and a few abilities that can pull targets into the shadow realm like mordekaiser's ultimate in LoL. There was another character in Bloodline Champions called Stalker that had a similar functioning ability.
  • SettiteSettite Member
    Voeltz wrote: »
    Stealth like Elites have in Halo and a few abilities that can pull targets into the shadow realm like mordekaiser's ultimate in LoL. There was another character in Bloodline Champions called Stalker that had a similar functioning ability.

    Man something like mordekaiser's ult would be fantastic. Hopefully we end up having ultimates in ashes.
  • DiamahtDiamaht Member, Braver of Worlds, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Settite wrote: »
    Diamaht wrote: »
    Settite wrote: »
    Basically the title. I hear alot of mmo players aren't too fond of true invisibility/stealth. Thoughts?

    Im ready for a game without full invisibility. I actually like the distortion mechanic Intrepid is using and look forward to testing it.

    Its a refreshing change from total invisibility. Classes using this kind of distortion have to still be concerned about detection, as they should be.

    My issue with distortion is once the game has been out for a bit it will no longer be difficult to notice. I believe the average player would get use to it very quickly. I believe distortion is fine for the ranger but personally I think full invisibility should live within the rogue.

    I suppose the problem is with players moving around freely with no possible way to detect.

    If movement created distortion, that would probably be fine
  • SongcallerSongcaller Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    I'd rather not have full stealth in a risk vs reward system. Partial stealth/camouflage is acceptable but full stealth would allow to much freedom of movement with decreased risk.
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  • Arya_YesheArya_Yeshe Member
    Otr wrote: »
    I would prefer full invisibility during night when moon is covered by clouds, away from light sources, while not moving or moving slowly.
    I would prefer also ability to change weather, cast fog, darkness...
    And to have illusion spells and clones.

    overall i agree
    PvE means: A handful of coins and a bag of boredom.
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Songcaller wrote: »
    I'd rather not have full stealth in a risk vs reward system. Partial stealth/camouflage is acceptable but full stealth would allow to much freedom of movement with decreased risk.

    It’s not really decreased risk if people can build their Characters to detect Stealth.
    Which should be the case in any decent RPG.
  • SongcallerSongcaller Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Dygz wrote: »
    Songcaller wrote: »
    I'd rather not have full stealth in a risk vs reward system. Partial stealth/camouflage is acceptable but full stealth would allow to much freedom of movement with decreased risk.

    It’s not really decreased risk if people can build their Characters to detect Stealth.
    Which should be the case in any decent RPG.

    People can build their toons to stack resistance but the risk to the toon remains. Full stealth is a cheese mechanic which I've used to perfection on old ganking toons. Your theory doesn't apply in a few games where your theory could apply either. Namely, you can detect invisible entities but the range is very limited. Thus, Rangers at full range with full stealth is the perfect cheese class in a risk/reward system.
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  • CROW3CROW3 Member, Alpha Two
    Dygz wrote: »

    It’s not really decreased risk if people can build their Characters to detect Stealth.
    Which should be the case in any decent RPG.

    Would you provide this option to all classes (with appropriate tradeoffs) or just some classes?


    Songcaller wrote: »
    Rangers at full range with full stealth is the perfect cheese class in a risk/reward system.

    Why? How would this be different from a non-stealthed ranger at full range? They’ll break stealth as soon as the first attack is made. Especially with a calibrated TTK for 30-60s?

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  • SongcallerSongcaller Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    CROW3 wrote: »
    Dygz wrote: »

    It’s not really decreased risk if people can build their Characters to detect Stealth.
    Which should be the case in any decent RPG.

    Would you provide this option to all classes (with appropriate tradeoffs) or just some classes?


    Songcaller wrote: »
    Rangers at full range with full stealth is the perfect cheese class in a risk/reward system.

    Why? How would this be different from a non-stealthed ranger at full range? They’ll break stealth as soon as the first attack is made. Especially with a calibrated TTK for 30-60s?

    I thought I'd heard the ttk has been reduced to 6 seconds...anyway, you can cheese the tactic at very low level and kill a lot of targets before targets can respond. When there is a pack of rangers with full stealth you can drift in and out of conflict with very high precision and gain very high produce.
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  • CROW3CROW3 Member, Alpha Two
    edited May 9
    Songcaller wrote: »
    I thought I'd heard the ttk has been reduced to 6 seconds...anyway, you can cheese the tactic at very low level and kill a lot of targets before targets can respond. When there is a pack of rangers with full stealth you can drift in and out of conflict with very high precision and gain very high produce.

    6s TTK for avg mobs, not players.

    I’m still not following how this is a cheese tactic. You’re in stealth, you attack target 1 in a group of 3, target 1 dead, you’re still totally visible with two targets closing fast. You can’t restealth until out of combat. Where’s the cheese?

    Also, when there is a pack of any class, they will coordinate attacks to take down other players, that’s not cheesing gameplay that’s just open world pvp gameplay.

    Can you help me understand your concern? 🧐

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  • Izzle123Izzle123 Member
    Otr wrote: »
    I would prefer full invisibility during night when moon is covered by clouds, away from light sources, while not moving or moving slowly.
    I would prefer also ability to change weather, cast fog, darkness...
    And to have illusion spells and clones.

    As a lifetime rogue player, I completely agree. I love stealth games and would prefer if stealth was stronger at night and if the environment affected it. Nighttime should feel more dangerous and full stealth in broad daylight feels unintuitive.
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    edited May 9
    Songcaller wrote: »
    People can build their toons to stack resistance but the risk to the toon remains. Full stealth is a cheese mechanic which I've used to perfection on old ganking toons. Your theory doesn't apply in a few games where your theory could apply either. Namely, you can detect invisible entities but the range is very limited. Thus, Rangers at full range with full stealth is the perfect cheese class in a risk/reward system.
    Full stealth is only a cheese mechanic when there is no counter to it.
    My theory applies to RPGs.
    Your theory applies to PvP games.

    Rangers with high Perception and high Tracking should be able to detect even Rangers with high Dex and high Stealth.
    They should also be able to Mark those they have detected.
    Poorly designed RPGs will not have mechanics for that.
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    CROW3 wrote: »
    Would you provide this option to all classes (with appropriate tradeoffs) or just some classes?
    Definitely not all Classes because Ashes is Rock/Paper/Scissors.
    Also Ashes is supposed to be balanced for an 8-person group with one of each Primary Archetype. If there are 2 Primary Archetypes with Stealth, I would expect there might be two Primary Archetypes that can detect Stealth.

    But also, high Wisdom/Perception should be able to counter high Dex/Stealth.
    So, stats are also a factor.

    And then we’d have to see what Augment Schools might offer. So maybe detect Stealth is also available via Social Orgs/Thieves Guild.

    (I think the 6 second TTK is for the average solo mob.)
  • DiamahtDiamaht Member, Braver of Worlds, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    edited May 9
    It comes down to who is responsible. If the rogue is totally invisible it's everyone else's job to manage detection. If it's camo or distortion it's the Rogues job to stay hidden.

    So should the Rogue have to build for stealth and account for terrain, or should all other classes have to build and equip for detection?
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