Would you want a single archetype to have both stealth and detect stealth options? Or would you propose those skills only be available to mutually exclusive archetypes?
I can see the argument both ways -
Pro: who understands how to detect stealthies better than stealthies?
Con: Sucks that only stealthies can detect other stealthies leaving the rest of us in the cold.
Would you want a single archetype to have both stealth and detect stealth options? Or would you propose those skills only be available to mutually exclusive archetypes?
I can see the argument both ways -
Pro: who understands how to detect stealthies better than stealthies?
Con: Sucks that only stealthies can detect other stealthies leaving the rest of us in the cold.
Edit: thx on the TTK clarity.
I'd go for mutually exclusive. Rogues having stealth/stalking duals is actually kind of appealing.
I suppose they could have strong "perception" to increase detection chance but I would leave true detection to support classes since it's more of a "power".
I don't want full invis for sure. I am not sure if the planned way in Ashes is the best. I'll have to play with it ingame really. Taking damage should break the invis, so you can't just wade through AOE and attack from stealth.
Basically the title. I hear alot of mmo players aren't too fond of true invisibility/stealth. Thoughts?
Ok for full invisibility is there is a way to detect invisibilty with a skill.
100% it would b too much if there was no way to detect and invis rogue. Something like mage light from eso would be good. And ofcourse something for rangers to find them aswell atleast
It comes down to who is responsible. If the rogue is totally invisible it's everyone else's job to manage detection. If it's camo or distortion it's the Rogues job to stay hidden.
So should the Rogue have to build for stealth and account for terrain, or should all other classes have to build and equip for detection?
I definitely think that the right way is for the rogue to build for stealth and account for terrain.
Because in the other case: if Rogue engaging out of stealth is too OP - then everyone needs to build against stealth which enforces particular builds and reduces the freedom of choosing builds, and in case rogue engaging out of stealth is not that OP - then rogue will feel bland as a class.
And yes i agree that in a group of 8, you may choose 2 to build vs stealth, and you will say that the other 6 will have freedom to build whatever they want, But if this is the way things are designed, you will end up with enforced builds vs other classes/mechanics, and in the end you will get everyone in the group with enforced build, to counter all kind of mechanics. and you may even end up not being invited to groups if you are not with particular build.
Tho i am not against the rock scissor paper design for the classes. So if a mage or any class with mage secondary archetype can detect invis rogues from a far and can keep their whole group safe from the rogue (if he play good, so skill based), then i am not against this. But for this the mage should not be forced to invest in stealth detection and sacrifice other stuff
Also i have 1 question:
What happens if you are attacking some mobs with AOE spells, and some not pvp flagged rogue with 10 hp enters your aoe spell while invis and dies from the dmg? ( tho same question applies if not invis player enters your aoe spell). Will you be flagged as corrupted?
Also i have 1 question:
What happens if you are attacking some mobs with AOE spells, and some not pvp flagged rogue with 10 hp enters your aoe spell while invis and dies from the dmg? ( tho same question applies if not invis player enters your aoe spell). Will you be flagged as corrupted?
First, I think you have to hold down a key while attacking to hit green players. You have to deliberately force it.
There is also going to be a setting you can toggle, where you won't hit, heal or buff other players if they are combatants, to avoid turning yourself into a combatant as well. So a flagged, stealthed rogue can't be sneaky and get you to flag like that.
Fully invisible down to around mid thighs, fading in to about 50% at feet.
Assuming people don't want full stealth.
In my experience the 'distortion' type stealth doesn't work well enough because of how human vision works, but hiding the upper body changes the shape of the thing the mind is reacting to, which seems to have some effect.
That sounds interesting. Do any games currently implement it in this way? I'd imagine it'd work well in places with more ground clutter but less so in a desert.
It has other specific purposes based on the game's overall design, in most cases it does a good job of allowing players to simulate being prone without the drawbacks of that.
It allows players to hide in groups very slightly more effectively than the motion distortion against most people's eyes, forces players to think about 'cover' (waist height visual obstacles of many kinds, even certain mobs, water, etc) and allows buildings with ramparts to more easily hide players who are moving around on them. Any situation where you're looking up at a ledge or angle and would only be able to see the player's upper body anyway.
It also simulates the idea that our characters would be able to 'hear footsteps' relatively clearly in many situations. I've got no issues with distance based on/off stealth either, but I prefer this way because there are more interesting ways to get quite close to players, with it, and play with terrain features and what they offer you, as the stealthed character, whereas full stealth is more of a binary win button.
Sorry, my native language is Erlang.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
It comes down to who is responsible. If the rogue is totally invisible it's everyone else's job to manage detection. If it's camo or distortion it's the Rogues job to stay hidden.
So should the Rogue have to build for stealth and account for terrain, or should all other classes have to build and equip for detection?
If Rogue and Ranger want to maximize Stealth, they should build their character to maximize Stealth.
If another player wants to build their character to detect Stealth, they should build their character to detect Stealth. Which includes choosing Classes or Races that excel at Perception.
That's the way RPGs are supposed to work.
One simple feature I would like to see (hehe) in the stealth implementation is... foot prints! Characters already leave them behind as they walk, we should see foot prints generated by stealthed/invisible characters. Reward the observant players.
Be bold. Be brave. Roll a Tulnar !
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Would you want a single archetype to have both stealth and detect stealth options? Or would you propose those skills only be available to mutually exclusive archetypes?
I can see the argument both ways -
Pro: who understands how to detect stealthies better than stealthies?
Con: Sucks that only stealthies can detect other stealthies leaving the rest of us in the cold.
Edit: thx on the TTK clarity.
Typically, we're going to expect Ranger and Rogue to excel at Tracking and Stealth.
Also Druid.
There also could be Races that have high Wis/Perception. Especially Tulnar, in Ashes.
So, there could, theoretically be Racial progression that helps characters detect Stealth.
Best scenario would be a combo of partial/full Stealth depending on how the characters are built.
The appearance of partial Stealth to characters with high Wis/Perception and Tracking.
The appearance of full Stealth to characters with low WIS/Perception and no Tracking.
Some games have been able to initiate Stealth when the character has Cover.
But, still should be more of a character skill than a gamer skill because it's an RPG.
And RPG means that I should be able to build a character that has higher Perception than I do as a player.
And I should be able to build a character that has better aim than I do as a player.
And I should be able to build a character that is better at Stealth than I am as a player.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
I definitely think that the right way is for the rogue to build for stealth and account for terrain.
Because in the other case: if Rogue engaging out of stealth is too OP - then everyone needs to build against stealth which enforces particular builds and reduces the freedom of choosing builds, and in case rogue engaging out of stealth is not that OP - then rogue will feel bland as a class.
And yes i agree that in a group of 8, you may choose 2 to build vs stealth, and you will say that the other 6 will have freedom to build whatever they want, But if this is the way things are designed, you will end up with enforced builds vs other classes/mechanics, and in the end you will get everyone in the group with enforced build, to counter all kind of mechanics. and you may even end up not being invited to groups if you are not with particular build.
Tho i am not against the rock scissor paper design for the classes. So if a mage or any class with mage secondary archetype can detect invis rogues from a far and can keep their whole group safe from the rogue (if he play good, so skill based), then i am not against this. But for this the mage should not be forced to invest in stealth detection and sacrifice other stuff
Again...
Ashes is designed to be balanced for an 8-person group with one of each Primary Archetype.
Which means you only really need the Rogue or the Ranger Primary Archetypes to build to detect Stealth.
Or, perhaps have one or more characters in the group with Rogue or Ranger Secondary Archetypes build to detect Stealth.
Rangers should be able to Mark characters they have detected - at that point everyone else in the group would be able to track that character.
MMORPGs will always have "enforced" builds - because gamers like to think they have found the META and dictate how everyone else should play.
But, with Rogue and Ranger Secondary Archetypes, there are many ways to have just one person in the group able to detect Stealth. Even if the Rogue and Ranger chose to pursue a different spec that does not include detecting Stealth, someone else in the group should be able to detect Stealth with an Augment from the Thieves Guild Social Org. Or perhaps from Racial progression.
Also many ways for multiple characters in the group to detect Stealth - if that's what they choose to do.
Again...
Ashes is designed to be balanced for an 8-person group with one of each Primary Archetype.
Which means you only really need the Rogue or the Ranger Primary Archetypes to build to detect Stealth.
Or, perhaps have one or more characters in the group with Rogue or Ranger Secondary Archetypes build to detect Stealth.
Rangers should be able to Mark characters they have detected - at that point everyone else in the group would be able to track that character.
MMORPGs will always have "enforced" builds - because gamers like to think they have found the META and dictate how everyone else should play.
But, with Rogue and Ranger Secondary Archetypes, there are many ways to have just one person in the group able to detect Stealth. Even if the Rogue and Ranger chose to pursue a different spec that does not include detecting Stealth, someone else in the group should be able to detect Stealth with an Augment from the Thieves Guild Social Org. Or perhaps from Racial progression.
Also many ways for multiple characters in the group to detect Stealth - if that's what they choose to do.
Guess you didnt read my comment (probably too long) so let me make it easier: Yes in group - only 1 will have to specialize to counter stealth, but if this is the approach the game takes, then it wont be just stealth. You will end up with many things that need to be countered, so you will enforce build on everyone on the group (tho everyone will counter different thing), but still wont matter coz it will remove the freedom of builds
And as such i think its better to have many viable builds, and the counter to be from a class
For example: mage counters stealth - and this means the mage has the skill by default, and doesnt need to invest skill points in it. This way you still get all viable mage builds, and still get the rock scissors paper class relation
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
edited May 9
Ashes is a game where many things will need to be countered. It's a game where choices have consequences and one character cannot do everything.
MMORPGs will always have gamers who try to enforce builds on other players.
Only individual gamers who are sheep remove freedom of builds from themselves.
Ashes has a plethora of ways to have viable builds.
All you have done is make a bunch of claims with absolutely nothing to support the claims - especially not in relation to the Ashes design.
If a Mage wants to counter Stealth, they can choose to be a Mage/Ranger or a Mage/Rogue.
They could choose to be a Mage/Mage with a Tracking Augment from the Thieves Guild. Perhaps they use a Mark Augment from the Scholar's Academy.
There might also be a method of detecting Stealth from Racial progression.
Many viable Mage builds possible while able to detect Stealth. If that's what the Mage wants to do.
Typically, we're going to expect Ranger and Rogue to excel at Tracking and Stealth.
Also Druid.
There also could be Races that have high Wis/Perception. Especially Tulnar, in Ashes.
So, there could, theoretically be Racial progression that helps characters detect Stealth.
Best scenario would be a combo of partial/full Stealth depending on how the characters are built.
The appearance of partial Stealth to characters with high Wis/Perception and Tracking.
The appearance of full Stealth to characters with low WIS/Perception and no Tracking.
Some games have been able to initiate Stealth when the character has Cover.
The interesting thing is that you’ll end up with a few combos specifically maximizing the ability to kill rogues. To your point it would be a Tulnar Cleric / ranger that’s a follower of Visine the goddess of clear perception.
But, still should be more of a character skill than a gamer skill because it's an RPG.
And RPG means that I should be able to build a character that has higher Perception than I do as a player.
And I should be able to build a character that has better aim than I do as a player.
And I should be able to build a character that is better at Stealth than I am as a player.
Yep. We’ve always agreed on that part. It’s an essential aspect of an RPG that tends to get lost in the whole love affair with action combat. You can lean into this along with the good point @Percimes mentioned about footprints. Btw I love footprints - it’s the red jellybean of attention to detail.
Basically, footprints of visible folks always appear, but footprints for stealthed opponents only appear when you’re spec’d into a certain level of perception.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
I would expect footprints to be an aspect of Tracking.
Most people would be oblivious to footprints, generally.
The EQNext design included a Dispel Magic ability. I was hoping to maximize that as much as possible to become a Master Dispeller.
Basically the title. I hear alot of mmo players aren't too fond of true invisibility/stealth. Thoughts?
I like the idea of a stealth stat, where 100 stealth relative to the observer = full stealth.
I'm not a game designer so I will have some dumb examples, but just to illustrate the idea:
Negative Modifiers
[*] Frontal cone of vision in front of a player = -50 Stealth
[*] Behind a player = -10 Stealth
[*] Daytime = -50 Stealth
[*] Nighttime = 0 Stealth
[*] Hit with aoe = -100 Stealth
[*] Hit with melee hitbox = -200 Stealth
[*] Pick up item off the ground = -100 Stealth
[*] Player attack = -200 Stealth
[*] Swimming -200 Stealth
Again these examples might not really make sense, but I like the idea of a variable stealth that can get super broken on a Rogue/Rogue main with rare gear and crazy buffs, while still allowing varying degrees of stealth effectiveness for a wide variety of characters and gameplay to knock them out of stealth.
The best implementation of invisibility I've seen is in Predecessor, where Kallari and Wraith's invisibility/stealth is proximity-based. If you're within a certain range and facing them, you can see them. If you're outside this range, they remain invisible. Additionally, Area of Effect (AoE) and Damage Over Time (DoT) abilities can bring them out of stealth.
I like the stalker cloak in Planetside 2. It restricted you to a sidearm and you had a shimmer while moving, but if you stood still or crouch walked, you were almost completely invisible. You could still get spotted if someone was right on top of you, or pointed a darklight in your direction, but it was incredibly useful for intel gathering and causing confusion on objectives.
DAOC did it pretty well. You were full invis, but when you got within certain range, they turned transparent. The thing is, they moved slower, so its not something you could run around doing all the time, you used it when you needed to, or wanted to ambush someone. When they got close to you, there were no turning back. They turned transparent just before they could hit you, so no turning back, or they knew you were around.
I'm not sure how you can have true stealth and maintain the balance of risk/reward in open world pvx. The Ranger's camouflage even seems pretty iffy right now.
I like full stealth that drains mana over time, not extensively.. Hitting the ground from heights should cause the character stealth to shimmer a slight distortion on impact. A temporary duration or ping radar style perception skill that lets you see the shimmer of a stealthed character up to a 50% based on character level difference. Any interaction of skills or AoE damage breaks the stealth.
I'm not sure how you can have true stealth and maintain the balance of risk/reward in open world pvx. The Ranger's camouflage even seems pretty iffy right now.
I'd imagine there would be a lot of rogue gatherers lol
In a flagging system pvp game like ashes I am 100% for full invisibility. Especially for a rogue which is a full glass cannon type melee class. It is a squishy, but the highest dps output class that needs full invis when charging towards opponents healer or main damage dealer (otherwise they would die even before reaching the target) and it needs to execute them VERY fast (1-2 stabs) because most probably they will die instantly after coming out of stealth (not necessarily, but in general sense).
p.s I see no sense in a ranged archer class having stealth. Only rogues.
I'm not sure how you can have true stealth and maintain the balance of risk/reward in open world pvx. The Ranger's camouflage even seems pretty iffy right now.
I'd imagine there would be a lot of rogue gatherers lol
90% of bots in Wow are/were Rogue. Even in pve areas they are harder to report.
In a flagging system pvp game like ashes I am 100% for full invisibility. Especially for a rogue which is a full glass cannon type melee class. It is a squishy, but the highest dps output class that needs full invis when charging towards opponents healer or main damage dealer (otherwise they would die even before reaching the target) and it needs to execute them VERY fast (1-2 stabs) because most probably they will die instantly after coming out of stealth (not necessarily, but in general sense).
Yes, 1-shotting people from stealth makes for great pvp. So fun...
90% of bots in Wow are/were Rogue. Even in pve areas they are harder to report.
That's a good point. Part of the anti-bot system is players finding them and pvping them or something. If they are just rogues in stealth then that idea goes out the window.
Comments
I can see the argument both ways -
Pro: who understands how to detect stealthies better than stealthies?
Con: Sucks that only stealthies can detect other stealthies leaving the rest of us in the cold.
Edit: thx on the TTK clarity.
I'd go for mutually exclusive. Rogues having stealth/stalking duals is actually kind of appealing.
I suppose they could have strong "perception" to increase detection chance but I would leave true detection to support classes since it's more of a "power".
Ok for full invisibility is there is a way to detect invisibilty with a skill.
I think this is interesting, if nothing else. I would like to see it in action though.
100% it would b too much if there was no way to detect and invis rogue. Something like mage light from eso would be good. And ofcourse something for rangers to find them aswell atleast
I definitely think that the right way is for the rogue to build for stealth and account for terrain.
Because in the other case: if Rogue engaging out of stealth is too OP - then everyone needs to build against stealth which enforces particular builds and reduces the freedom of choosing builds, and in case rogue engaging out of stealth is not that OP - then rogue will feel bland as a class.
And yes i agree that in a group of 8, you may choose 2 to build vs stealth, and you will say that the other 6 will have freedom to build whatever they want, But if this is the way things are designed, you will end up with enforced builds vs other classes/mechanics, and in the end you will get everyone in the group with enforced build, to counter all kind of mechanics. and you may even end up not being invited to groups if you are not with particular build.
Tho i am not against the rock scissor paper design for the classes. So if a mage or any class with mage secondary archetype can detect invis rogues from a far and can keep their whole group safe from the rogue (if he play good, so skill based), then i am not against this. But for this the mage should not be forced to invest in stealth detection and sacrifice other stuff
What happens if you are attacking some mobs with AOE spells, and some not pvp flagged rogue with 10 hp enters your aoe spell while invis and dies from the dmg? ( tho same question applies if not invis player enters your aoe spell). Will you be flagged as corrupted?
First, I think you have to hold down a key while attacking to hit green players. You have to deliberately force it.
There is also going to be a setting you can toggle, where you won't hit, heal or buff other players if they are combatants, to avoid turning yourself into a combatant as well. So a flagged, stealthed rogue can't be sneaky and get you to flag like that.
It has other specific purposes based on the game's overall design, in most cases it does a good job of allowing players to simulate being prone without the drawbacks of that.
It allows players to hide in groups very slightly more effectively than the motion distortion against most people's eyes, forces players to think about 'cover' (waist height visual obstacles of many kinds, even certain mobs, water, etc) and allows buildings with ramparts to more easily hide players who are moving around on them. Any situation where you're looking up at a ledge or angle and would only be able to see the player's upper body anyway.
It also simulates the idea that our characters would be able to 'hear footsteps' relatively clearly in many situations. I've got no issues with distance based on/off stealth either, but I prefer this way because there are more interesting ways to get quite close to players, with it, and play with terrain features and what they offer you, as the stealthed character, whereas full stealth is more of a binary win button.
If another player wants to build their character to detect Stealth, they should build their character to detect Stealth. Which includes choosing Classes or Races that excel at Perception.
That's the way RPGs are supposed to work.
Also Druid.
There also could be Races that have high Wis/Perception. Especially Tulnar, in Ashes.
So, there could, theoretically be Racial progression that helps characters detect Stealth.
Best scenario would be a combo of partial/full Stealth depending on how the characters are built.
The appearance of partial Stealth to characters with high Wis/Perception and Tracking.
The appearance of full Stealth to characters with low WIS/Perception and no Tracking.
Some games have been able to initiate Stealth when the character has Cover.
But, still should be more of a character skill than a gamer skill because it's an RPG.
And RPG means that I should be able to build a character that has higher Perception than I do as a player.
And I should be able to build a character that has better aim than I do as a player.
And I should be able to build a character that is better at Stealth than I am as a player.
Ashes is designed to be balanced for an 8-person group with one of each Primary Archetype.
Which means you only really need the Rogue or the Ranger Primary Archetypes to build to detect Stealth.
Or, perhaps have one or more characters in the group with Rogue or Ranger Secondary Archetypes build to detect Stealth.
Rangers should be able to Mark characters they have detected - at that point everyone else in the group would be able to track that character.
MMORPGs will always have "enforced" builds - because gamers like to think they have found the META and dictate how everyone else should play.
But, with Rogue and Ranger Secondary Archetypes, there are many ways to have just one person in the group able to detect Stealth. Even if the Rogue and Ranger chose to pursue a different spec that does not include detecting Stealth, someone else in the group should be able to detect Stealth with an Augment from the Thieves Guild Social Org. Or perhaps from Racial progression.
Also many ways for multiple characters in the group to detect Stealth - if that's what they choose to do.
Guess you didnt read my comment (probably too long) so let me make it easier: Yes in group - only 1 will have to specialize to counter stealth, but if this is the approach the game takes, then it wont be just stealth. You will end up with many things that need to be countered, so you will enforce build on everyone on the group (tho everyone will counter different thing), but still wont matter coz it will remove the freedom of builds
And as such i think its better to have many viable builds, and the counter to be from a class
For example: mage counters stealth - and this means the mage has the skill by default, and doesnt need to invest skill points in it. This way you still get all viable mage builds, and still get the rock scissors paper class relation
MMORPGs will always have gamers who try to enforce builds on other players.
Only individual gamers who are sheep remove freedom of builds from themselves.
Ashes has a plethora of ways to have viable builds.
All you have done is make a bunch of claims with absolutely nothing to support the claims - especially not in relation to the Ashes design.
If a Mage wants to counter Stealth, they can choose to be a Mage/Ranger or a Mage/Rogue.
They could choose to be a Mage/Mage with a Tracking Augment from the Thieves Guild. Perhaps they use a Mark Augment from the Scholar's Academy.
There might also be a method of detecting Stealth from Racial progression.
Many viable Mage builds possible while able to detect Stealth. If that's what the Mage wants to do.
The interesting thing is that you’ll end up with a few combos specifically maximizing the ability to kill rogues. To your point it would be a Tulnar Cleric / ranger that’s a follower of Visine the goddess of clear perception.
Yep. We’ve always agreed on that part. It’s an essential aspect of an RPG that tends to get lost in the whole love affair with action combat. You can lean into this along with the good point @Percimes mentioned about footprints. Btw I love footprints - it’s the red jellybean of attention to detail.
Basically, footprints of visible folks always appear, but footprints for stealthed opponents only appear when you’re spec’d into a certain level of perception.
Most people would be oblivious to footprints, generally.
The EQNext design included a Dispel Magic ability. I was hoping to maximize that as much as possible to become a Master Dispeller.
I like the idea of a stealth stat, where 100 stealth relative to the observer = full stealth.
I'm not a game designer so I will have some dumb examples, but just to illustrate the idea:
Negative Modifiers
[*] Frontal cone of vision in front of a player = -50 Stealth
[*] Behind a player = -10 Stealth
[*] Daytime = -50 Stealth
[*] Nighttime = 0 Stealth
[*] Hit with aoe = -100 Stealth
[*] Hit with melee hitbox = -200 Stealth
[*] Pick up item off the ground = -100 Stealth
[*] Player attack = -200 Stealth
[*] Swimming -200 Stealth
Positive Modifiers:
[*] Rogue primary = +125 Stealth
[*] Rogue secondary = +25 Stealth
[*] Ranger primary = +50 Stealth
[*] Rogue Talents = +75 Stealth
[*] Gear = +50 Stealth
[*] Buffs = +50 Stealth
[*] Invisibility potion = +200 Stealth
Some ideas for stealth benefits:
[*] 0-25 stealth = Gradually opaque to 80% transparent, tab targettable, nameplate visible,
[*] 25 stealth = 80% transparant, tab targettable, nameplate invisible,
[*] 50 stealth = Ranger camo, not tab targettable, nameplate invisible,
[*] 100 stealth = Fully invisible
Again these examples might not really make sense, but I like the idea of a variable stealth that can get super broken on a Rogue/Rogue main with rare gear and crazy buffs, while still allowing varying degrees of stealth effectiveness for a wide variety of characters and gameplay to knock them out of stealth.
I'd imagine there would be a lot of rogue gatherers lol
p.s I see no sense in a ranged archer class having stealth. Only rogues.
Yes, 1-shotting people from stealth makes for great pvp. So fun...
That's a good point. Part of the anti-bot system is players finding them and pvping them or something. If they are just rogues in stealth then that idea goes out the window.
It really is super lame gameplay. Getting insta killed without any real way to see it coming or fight back is depressing as hell.