Getting insight of secondary archetypes before choosing one

Hi friends,

I'd like to share a few thoughts about this question from the last AMA (great one by the way

).

So basically the question was "Will there be any kind of trial quest to test all the secondary archetypes before making a final decision at lvl 25 ?"

Steven answered saying that :
- There is no plan to provide this kind of preview period for players at the moment.
- We will be able to change our secondary archetype.
- Changing the secondary archetype will be a long process (because this is a very meaningful choice about our character's identity).

--

I'm aligned with the "Meaningful choice + identity" component.
But I think it would be very helpful to give players a more or less detailed preview about :

1) What kind of augment we will be able to pick from "this particular secondary archetype" ?
According to the wiki, each secondary archetype offers four schools of augments. It would be a good thing to be able to check, for each secondary archtype, what are these schools of augments.

Ex :
If I pick mage as a secondary, will I be able to add some "Ice augments" on my skills ?

2) To explain, to some degree, what would each school provide to the players skills.
This one is a huge deal to me.

Ex :
- If I'm playing a Cleric, will a secondary Tank archetype provide me a school of augments that adds some damage mitigation to some of my healing skills ?
- If I'm playing a Mage, will a secondary Fighter archetype give me access to the "open wound / healing malus" debuff ?
- If I'm playing a Ranger, will a secondary Bard archtype provide me some "attack speed / crit buffs" ?

--
I'm fine with not having the possibility to test all augments from all secondary archtypes before choosing one (that would not be immersive at all).

Plus some archtype name give a good idea, to a degree, about what we can expect from some schools of augment (Necromancer and Paladin for example).

But I believe we all have different ideas about what most of the archetypes will grant our character on an "augment perspective"... and it's setting us from a possibly great amount of frustration if we can't have some insight about what these augments schools are, and a general "what this augment school might actually add/change about my skills and gameplay" BEFORE we pick a secondary archtype.

Since it's such a meaningful choice about our character, I believe we need to have at least these levels of understanding before making such an important decision.

What do you guys think about it ?

---
That's unrelated with the main topic, but I also believe it would be cool to have some little (or not that little) class quest in order to unlock some skills, like the "ultimates" of a given talent tree branch

The idea being that spending a talent point for the first time in an ultimate would not automatically grant the skill, but would give us this little quest.

That's a thing I liked in wow for example, that we had to go through these quests back in the day in order to unlock the Aquatic form from the druid for example, or the demons of the warlock.
That's immersive and that's cool !

--
P.S. : the "Preview" button on the forum makes previewing way better than it was before, good job

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Comments

Taleof2Cities

Your post has some merit, @Ael.

Up to this point, we’ve been told that the secondary archetypes merely “add flavor”. In other words, there aren’t 64 clearly defined classes … but there are 8 clearly defined archetypes with several options for customization.

But, a long quest to change your secondary archetype doesn’t make sense if the choice merely “adds flavor”.

So, that’s one of the riddles that I’m trying to reconcile … and we may not fully understand the full impact of secondary archetypes even after Alpha 2 is over.

Ludullu

I'd prefer if to be able to get a secondary archetype we need to do a quest. And during that quest we learn about what different classes would give us, in terms of augments, and, ideally, would even interact with npcs/mobs that use those effects against us.

Each archetype would have their own huge quest that does this, which would not only show people what they'd be getting into with their class choice, but would also make alts more interesting to play.

8 one-time huge quests doesn't seem all that bad in terms of devtime, so I think this is doable. And creating mobs that have playable abilities would also make the game feel more immersive and interesting imo, so ideally the mobs from the quests shouldn't be unique.

Depraved

Ael wrote: »

Hi friends,

I'd like to share a few thoughts about this question from the last AMA (great one by the way ).

So basically the question was "Will there be any kind of trial quest to test all the secondary archetypes before making a final decision at lvl 25 ?"

Steven answered saying that :
- There is no plan to provide this kind of preview period for players at the moment.
- We will be able to change our secondary archetype.
- Changing the secondary archetype will be a long process (because this is a very meaningful choice about our character's identity).

--

I'm aligned with the "Meaningful choice + identity" component.
But I think it would be very helpful to give players a more or less detailed preview about :

1) What kind of augment we will be able to pick from "this particular secondary archetype" ?
According to the wiki, each secondary archetype offers four schools of augments. It would be a good thing to be able to check, for each secondary archtype, what are these schools of augments.

Ex :
If I pick mage as a secondary, will I be able to add some "Ice augments" on my skills ?

2) To explain, to some degree, what would each school provide to the players skills.
This one is a huge deal to me.

Ex :
- If I'm playing a Cleric, will a secondary Tank archetype provide me a school of augments that adds some damage mitigation to some of my healing skills ?
- If I'm playing a Mage, will a secondary Fighter archetype give me access to the "open wound / healing malus" debuff ?
- If I'm playing a Ranger, will a secondary Bard archtype provide me some "attack speed / crit buffs" ?

--
I'm fine with not having the possibility to test all augments from all secondary archtypes before choosing one (that would not be immersive at all).

Plus some archtype name give a good idea, to a degree, about what we can expect from some schools of augment (Necromancer and Paladin for example).

But I believe we all have different ideas about what most of the archetypes will grant our character on an "augment perspective"... and it's setting us from a possibly great amount of frustration if we can't have some insight about what these augments schools are, and a general "what this augment school might actually add/change about my skills and gameplay" BEFORE we pick a secondary archtype.

Since it's such a meaningful choice about our character, I believe we need to have at least these levels of understanding before making such an important decision.

What do you guys think about it ?

---
That's unrelated with the main topic, but I also believe it would be cool to have some little (or not that little) class quest in order to unlock some skills, like the "ultimates" of a given talent tree branch
The idea being that spending a talent point for the first time in an ultimate would not automatically grant the skill, but would give us this little quest.

That's a thing I liked in wow for example, that we had to go through these quests back in the day in order to unlock the Aquatic form from the druid for example, or the demons of the warlock.
That's immersive and that's cool !

--
P.S. : the "Preview" button on the forum makes previewing way better than it was before, good job

id also like a way to know before making a decision. sadly, the only way would probably be trying out all archetypes or going to a website and reading about them xD

Saabynator

I think - despite the fact that Steven said there is no trying them out, that there will be some examples or good descriptions of the way it affects the classes. But yea, it would be nice with some sort of arena, where you could check out stuff. But there is a certain charm in having to choose semi blind. Like knowing the basics of what it will give you, but not the actual abilities.

CROW3

It’s interesting - of all the options discussed above no one has mentioned ‘asking another player.’ 🧐

RocketFarmer

The preview system will likely be from content creators as are many other meta build choices.

Dygz

Yeah... I don't need a Quest to teach me what Augment Schools will be available.
That should be common knowledge in the lore.
Players will have that knowledge before Launch.

We will have to play with the Augments to see how they will affect the Active Skills we like to use.

Aszkalon

Ael wrote: »

Getting insight of secondary archetypes before choosing one

Not wanting to sound a little bit to crass here,

but my " Insight " of secondary Archetypes was done, when i was looking at what a Base of Summoner with secondary Archetype Cleric creates.

^.^

Ludullu

Dygz wrote: »

Yeah... I don't need a Quest to teach me what Augment Schools will be available.
That should be common knowledge in the lore.

Lore is only learned through quests or through reading some in-game stuff (like npcs dialogue or books, etc).

Dygz wrote: »

Players will have that knowledge before Launch.

Only those who go out of their way to go learn that stuff outside of the game would know this information. Why make people learn stuff outside of the game, when instead Intrepid could teach them that stuff inside of the game?

Dygz wrote: »

We will have to play with the Augments to see how they will affect the Active Skills we like to use.

Depending on the cost to switch your class (time costs included) - people might choose the "wrong" (for them) class and then will have to spend time/resources to even just try and see what the other class does.

If you're giving players a choice - why make it an obfuscated one?

Ael

I'm fine with going on the internet to get some extra information about secondary archetypes choice.
But I totally agree with @NiKr about the fact that it should not be mandatory to search outside the game in order to have enough information to make such a choice.

As for testing augments before committing to a secondary archetype choice, I like your idea of adding mobs (or a friendly NPC to do the quest with ?) with augmented abilities in some specific quests. It sounds way more immersive than being able to test all skills + augment combinations in an arena of some sort.

Plus some augments are level-dependant, meaning we would not be able to test the "full kit" before reaching "last augment unlocking level" anyway.

The "arena part" aside I totally agree with @Saabynator :

I think - despite the fact that Steven said there is no trying them out, that there will be some examples or good descriptions of the way it affects the classes. But yea, it would be nice with some sort of arena, where you could check out stuff. But there is a certain charm in having to choose semi blind. Like knowing the basics of what it will give you, but not the actual abilities.

Although some of us will definitely want to have literally all the required information in order to make a "full pre-set" on a "skill + augment" perspective, I personnally like this "semi--blind" idea.

--
So, assuming there will be some level of information available in game before making a choice here :

What kind and what level of information would you guys like/need to have in-game about your secondary archetype choice, on a "what will it change to my base archetype gameplay" perspective ?

- A general "flavor" ? ("Dear Mr. Ranger, if you want to lean on the Mage side of the Force, with our Ice school you might be able to add some elemental ice damages to your skills, and you would also have access to additional snare/root abilities in your kit !")

- The status effects / buffs / debuffs available in a given school of augments ?

- Skills that would radically be changed through augments ? ("your "Hunt of the Raven" ability might evolve into adding magical penetration instead of physical penetration.") ?

Any other ideas ?

daveywavey

Ael wrote: »

I'm fine with going on the internet to get some extra information about secondary archetypes choice.
But I totally agree with @NiKr about the fact that it should not be mandatory to search outside the game in order to have enough information to make such a choice.

It's not mandatory to go outside the game to make a choice. You can make your choice with however much information you like.

If you want to make your choice based off very little information, then go for it.
If you want to do the research so that you can make your choice based off more information, then more power to you.

All the info needed is going to be available before launch. I don't see why Intrepid should have to try to counter laziness.

Ludullu

daveywavey wrote: »

All the info needed is going to be available before launch. I don't see why Intrepid should have to try to counter laziness.

Having a "tutorial" in the game is now "countering laziness"? Knowing how your character will play should not require you to NOT play the fucking game where your character is.

It's kinda wild to me that people have completely dismissed even the possibility that the game should provide information to the players that is INSIDE the game.

daveywavey

By the time you're Level 25, you'll have a reasonably good idea of what the archetypes can and can't do. You'll know the way you want to take your character and what you want to try next.

And if you decide that you got it wrong, there's a way to change it.

Ludullu

daveywavey wrote: »

By the time you're Level 25, you'll have a reasonably good idea of what the archetypes can and can't do. You'll know the way you want to take your character and what you want to try next.

Except we got no idea how exactly those archetypes will be represented in augments. And we don't know how exactly would a normal player learn that information w/o going to read the wiki or watch YT vids.

A ton of people will simply hear about the game, will have no guild when they start the game and will most likely play completely solo for as long as they can, because that's just how people play these days. And w/o an in-game "tutorial" for all other archetypes /augments - you'd have 0 damn clue what they can and cannot do.

We also don't know how fast the augments will come online and what kind of progression path they'll take. Nor do we know what will be required, in terms of time/resources, to change your class, so saying

daveywavey wrote: »

And if you decide that you got it wrong, there's a way to change it.

Is not really helpful to people who have already put in dozens of hours into progressing one way and might now be required to spend several more hours "fixing the problem" of a bad choice.

We do know that Steven wants the class choice to matter to an extent, so I'd assume that means a non-negligible cost to switch the class, otherwise everyone would flip them every damn time they're at a node, which would go directly against Steven's wish.

And if we get some kind of lock--out mechanic for frequent switching - that's a yet another stopgap preventing people from simply enjoying the game to the fullest.

Considering that we're yeaaars away from release, I really don't see why Intrepid couldn't just add ways to let people know what their "meaningful choice" will lead to.

Saabynator

NiKr wrote: »

daveywavey wrote: »

All the info needed is going to be available before launch. I don't see why Intrepid should have to try to counter laziness.

Having a "tutorial" in the game is now "countering laziness"? Knowing how your character will play should not require you to NOT play the fucking game where your character is.

It's kinda wild to me that people have completely dismissed even the possibility that the game should provide information to the players that is INSIDE the game.

Well, you dont know all the spells and abilities before you choose a class. You have an undestanding of what a mage is, and the direction of the class. So, you choose you main class semi-blind. Why not your 2end, and less important class?

Saabynator

NiKr wrote: »

daveywavey wrote: »

By the time you're Level 25, you'll have a reasonably good idea of what the archetypes can and can't do. You'll know the way you want to take your character and what you want to try next.

Except we got no idea how exactly those archetypes will be represented in augments. And we don't know how exactly would a normal player learn that information w/o going to read the wiki or watch YT vids.

A ton of people will simply hear about the game, will have no guild when they start the game and will most likely play completely solo for as long as they can, because that's just how people play these days. And w/o an in-game "tutorial" for all other archetypes /augments - you'd have 0 damn clue what they can and cannot do.

We also don't know how fast the augments will come online and what kind of progression path they'll take. Nor do we know what will be required, in terms of time/resources, to change your class, so saying

daveywavey wrote: »

And if you decide that you got it wrong, there's a way to change it.

Is not really helpful to people who have already put in dozens of hours into progressing one way and might now be required to spend several more hours "fixing the problem" of a bad choice.

We do know that Steven wants the class choice to matter to an extent, so I'd assume that means a non-negligible cost to switch the class, otherwise everyone would flip them every damn time they're at a node, which would go directly against Steven's wish.

And if we get some kind of lock--out mechanic for frequent switching - that's a yet another stopgap preventing people from simply enjoying the game to the fullest.

Considering that we're yeaaars away from release, I really don't see why Intrepid couldn't just add ways to let people know what their "meaningful choice" will lead to.

A tutorial is not the same as a try out. I am sure there will be a tutorial on the secondary classes, anything else would be weird. But a tryout is quite different.

Ludullu

Saabynator wrote: »

Well, you dont know all the spells and abilities before you choose a class. You have an undestanding of what a mage is, and the direction of the class. So, you choose you main class semi-blind. Why not your 2end, and less important class?

And that's a good point to bring up. Imo we should get a good list of features/characteristic when choosing our archetype at character creation.

In my ideal world we'd have instanced siege "servers" for everyone who's in the login queue. And in those sieges they'd be controlling a lvl25 char of their choosing. This would give people a feel for what the archetype does, would keep them in the game during their queue and would let people get accustomed to how the game plays before starting the game itself, which would help them have a more streamlined start rather than seeing hundreds of people jumping around and testing their characters right at the starting portal (which would probably overload servers even more).

Saabynator wrote: »

A tutorial is not the same as a try out. I am sure there will be a tutorial on the secondary classes, anything else would be weird. But a tryout is quite different.

That is why I put tutorial in ""s. I've also never said I want a tryout for classes, so that's an argument for other posters here.

Saabynator

NiKr wrote: »

Saabynator wrote: »

Well, you dont know all the spells and abilities before you choose a class. You have an undestanding of what a mage is, and the direction of the class. So, you choose you main class semi-blind. Why not your 2end, and less important class?

And that's a good point to bring up. Imo we should get a good list of features/characteristic when choosing our archetype at character creation.

In my ideal world we'd have instanced siege "servers" for everyone who's in the login queue. And in those sieges they'd be controlling a lvl25 char of their choosing. This would give people a feel for what the archetype does, would keep them in the game during their queue and would let people get accustomed to how the game plays before starting the game itself, which would help them have a more streamlined start rather than seeing hundreds of people jumping around and testing their characters right at the starting portal (which would probably overload servers even more).

Saabynator wrote: »

A tutorial is not the same as a try out. I am sure there will be a tutorial on the secondary classes, anything else would be weird. But a tryout is quite different.

That is why I put tutorial in ""s. I've also never said I want a tryout for classes, so that's an argument for other posters here.

Fair enough about your last pointe. I do think, that there will be a toturial, everything else would be really weird. But its probably more of a description, than direct numbers, graphics & effects.

I undestand the fear of making a wrong choice, and having to respec down the line - its annoying! But I think alot of players actually wants to explore their classes, like you would an area in the game. I makes for some good "ohh shit!" moments, when you try out your new abilities and effects. Having to figure out a viable spec and so on. Maybe they will throw in a free respec or something, with each char, just to make you less locked in. Its a love/hate thing.

Ludullu

Saabynator wrote: »

But I think alot of players actually wants to explore their classes, like you would an area in the game. I makes for some good "ohh shit!" moments, when you try out your new abilities and effects. Having to figure out a viable spec and so on. Maybe they will throw in a free respec or something, with each char, just to make you less locked in. Its a love/hate thing.

This would then be a discussion of "whether spoilers ruin stories or, instead, properly control expectations".

Seeing effects that your class will have down the line would create a controlled build-up of excitement of "oh shit, I can't wait to get that cool effect that I experienced during the quest", while also preventing people from creating random insane theories of what a class should be able to do (in player's opinion), but then these theories getting destroyed by the game, which leads to a feeling of disappointment that appeared purely out of lack of knowledge of the future.

We've already gotten a shitton of opinions on different class themes on these forums, from "why is the fighter a vampire" to "my necromancer should be able to raise ALL THE DEAD!!". And I'm sure that a ton of people on release will project their own expectations onto class names, because that's what people do. And then when these expectations are not meant (for one reason or another) - people will get upset not only with the class itself, but potentially with the game too, because they'll perceive this situation as the game "lying to them", even though no such statements were made by the game.

blat

Tbh I think the best (and easiest in terms of Dev effort) is just to give us the greyed-out tooltips, like talents you've not specced into yet.

That way we get the fine-grained detail that I'm gonna need before deciding on a secondary. Actually using the abilities in a preview goes a bit too far, IMO.

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