Glorious Alpha Two Testers!
Phase I of Alpha Two testing will occur on weekends. Each weekend is scheduled to start on Fridays at 10 AM PT and end on Sundays at 10 PM PT. Find out more here.
Check out Alpha Two Announcements here to see the latest Alpha Two news and update notes.
Our quickest Alpha Two updates are in Discord. Testers with Alpha Two access can chat in Alpha Two channels by connecting your Discord and Intrepid accounts here.
Phase I of Alpha Two testing will occur on weekends. Each weekend is scheduled to start on Fridays at 10 AM PT and end on Sundays at 10 PM PT. Find out more here.
Check out Alpha Two Announcements here to see the latest Alpha Two news and update notes.
Our quickest Alpha Two updates are in Discord. Testers with Alpha Two access can chat in Alpha Two channels by connecting your Discord and Intrepid accounts here.
Comments
You will have similar details for deciding your Secondary Archetype as you will have for deciding your Race.
You already know without even playing at all whether you would prefer to play a Tank or a Cleric or a Mage.
Even a Quest is not going to give you 25 Levels of info about whether or not you want to play.
You don't have to explain to me why you might prefer to wear a helmet, shoulder pads and knee pads while playing rugby. You don't have to explain to me why you would like to use your hands to move the ball down the field while playing soccer.
Just because you want something that doesn't mean that's the way the rules work.
I just don't want things to be intentionally left to "being found out later" even the more minor details, and im sure you are right about whether or not that will be the case based on my interpretation of Steven's answer, but that doesn't mean I like it, unless that process is more interesting than the traditional way which I doubt will be the case.
Thats kinda the point of feedback wouldn't you say? Steven didn't commit one way or another on this topic even if they are leaning one direction, so I wouldn't really say "that's the way the rules work" for the design, even if it happens to better suit your specific rpg definition.
I don't know why you mentioned that.
What I said is that you've already explained what you want and why you want it.
Continuing to repeat what you've already explained is not going to clarify it more.
But, also, game genres have rules.
You can expect them to maintain those rules - even when individuals would really like to play a game that has a different set of rules.
Doesn't mean it's impossible that Steven will accomodate you. It's just what you are advocating are not RPG rules/design.
I wouldn't really expect them to maintain the rules of what you specifically consider an rpg if they are willing to change those boundaries after hearing different perspectives of what an rpg is to different kinds of people, so thats what I meant from the feedback comment.
So to me its not about "accomodating a different type of genre enjoyer", to me, the way that I prefer it is still an rpg and wouldn't be going outside of those boundaries like you are perceiving it to be doing.
So thats why I was reiterating my main points and explanations to explain where I think the lines should be drawn and what the rules should actually be regarding an rpg, which is my feedback, I am not making a special request to change the genre to accomodate myself (even though thats how you perceive it based on your genre definition).
Perhaps and list of spells, spell descriptions, and talent tree previews.
Like that one person who disliked vampire fighter. They might've chosen to play fighter because they always do so, but then they learn that AoC's fighter has a vampiric side to him and they hate that! But that vampiric might come online at lvl20 or smth, and that might be 50h of playing.
This would mean that this person has now wasted 50h of their real life time because the game didn't tell them shit. They knew what they wanted to play, but due to the game not telling them that their preference is designed differently in Ashes - it effectively betrayed the expected preference.
And this is the core premise for why I want a way to know what my class will give me before choosing it. Because I might have a ton of expectations based on my own experiences of playing rpgs (even if you think I've never played one), but AoC's design might go directly against those expectations and experiences, and will have made me waste my time on doing something that I didn't wanna do.
Except now I'd need to spend even more time to switch to another class. BUT WAIT! I now don't know what other classes provide me, because there'd be no way to know outside of the wiki/YT/or hoping that I have a friend who plays that exact class, leveled up to my lvl or higher (a very rare occurrence cause I always outlvl all my friends) and have also paid attention during the augment options, so he could tell me which ones he didn't pick.
All of that shit could be resolved with a great quest. And this quest could be "meeting the mentor", at the end of which you "enter the abyss and achieve rebirth" as the new class - just as your beloved Hero's Journey requires.
Middle point of your character's progress and all that.
im late tot his thread but i want to say why is this even a question of people freaking out. This is the standard for all mmorpgs to have. You know what skills you get do, and can cycle through your options before picking.
The people complaining should be min maxers that want to dps check every single skill and effect without leveling the class. People wanting more information than what your skills do and the general dmg / effect.
You're speaking about how some players subjectively would like the rules to be changed to fit their wants.
Sure... the rules for soccer can be changed to become football and rugby.
And tons of people can have fun playing all of those games.
It's a free world. You can have whatever subjective perceptions you want. It's not hurting anyone.
You are reiterating the same thing I already told you I understand.
I don't understand why you think reiterating it is meaningful.
D&D has always had guidebooks, like the Players Handbook.
You learn the details about how to build a character outside of the game world - or with experience after you've made your choices in-game. And you do not go on Quests that let you try out a Class or Sub-Class before you choose the Class or Sub-Class. Just as there is no Quest that allows you to try out a Race before you choose a Race.
I understand what you want to do.
But, that's not the way RPGs work.
And I have no clue why you expect them to work that way.
Just as I have no idea why you would expect soccer to allow you to use your hands to move the ball down the field just because you want the rules to be different.
Rugby allows you to do that. And rugby is an offshoot of soccer. Tons of people enjoy rugby. But it's not soccer.
Just as you read whatever equivalent of the Players Handbook comes with TT RPGs, Online RPG players should probably check some vids and wikis to understand how to build a character before they try to build a character - if they don't want to waste 50 hours thinking a Fighter in one RPG is exactly like a Fighter in a different RPG.
But, you'll notice that both you and that one person who disliked Vampire Fighter somehow know about Blood Fusion before playing a Fighter in-game. Even though you say you don't like "meta-gaming".
If they don't want to waste 50H doing that, they can look it up in a guide first.
That's the way RPGs work.
Sure. You can have a core premise for wanting to play rugby instead of soccer.
Just as you can have a core premise for wanting to play an MMO Survival game or MMO FPS rather than an MMORPG.
You want to be able to use your hands to move the ball down the field similar to rugbey instead of wanting to follow the soccer rules.
That's still not really a good reason for an RPG to change its ruleset/fundamental design to accomdate you.
You don't need to do that because there are, and will be, several different guides for you to look at.
Similar to the guidebooks, like the Players Handbook, that RPG players typically use to learn about gameplay.
I don't understand why you have an expectation different than that.
And you won't be able to explain that to me in a way that I will understand it.
I accept that's what you want. But, it doesn't convince me that you should be accomodated in an MMORPG.
What you want seems like a different game - in the manner that rugby is different than soccer.
It's not the way I would want an MMORPG to be designed.
Although that could be fun for some other game genre. Like an MMO FPS or maybe even a MEOW (Multiplayer Evolving Online World).
All of that shit is easily resolved with out-of-game guides.
In RPGs, you meet your mentor(s) after you choose your Class.
And, in Ashes, most likely the mentors are not going to be willing to start you down the path of a Secondary Archetype until you strongly commit to following that Class. The mentor will send you on Class Quests after you choose the Class. Because choices have consequences.
That should be your expectation. Even if you don't like it.
That being said...
Everything is subject to change.
At this point, Intrepid has two designers who hope to create a MEOW rather than an MMORPG.
So, it could be that by the time Ashes actually releases, it's actually something different than an MMORPG.
Similar to how rugby and American football are different than soccer.
Sure.
Doing quests in an mmorpg is the same as asking the DM about your surroundings during the game (iirc this is usually done through a perception check).
D&D rulebook is simply the guardrails that people use to know the general direction for their campaign, just as "mmorpg" genre of Ashes would imply to people that this will be a game with a ton of other players (massive multiplayer), it's gonna be online and there's gonna be rpg elements in it (for most people this means leveling up their character, while playing different roles).
If "having a rulebook" remained the REQUIRED thing for each and every rpg out there - every dev company would be releasing their guides and wikis on their own. But no, none of them do, because "learning about the game" has become a thing that people do IN the game.
Yes, there's third party places where you can learn information, but they are not related to the devs. You live in the ancient past and refuse to accept that things have moved on since then. If nothing in the gaming industry changed - we'd still be playing pong.
However, the feel of the class matters to many. I would copy Lost Ark on this one and have a preview zone and accept the fact that gaming culture has changed and time is more precious then ever.
IDK if my point is logically consistent but kind of a tough question.
Doing Quests in an MMORPG is not the same thing as asking the DM about your surroundings during the game. At all. Nothing like that.
If you want to know something about the surrounding, you ask the DM what the surroundings are like and the DM describes the surroundings. No Quest needed for that. Questing has nothing to do with that at all.
And, even if it did, I have no clue why you mention it.
And, sure, that is probably assuming it's a homebrew location that doesn't have a guidebook available, like
the Forgotten Realms or GreyHawk or Waterdeep guidebooks.
I also don't know how in the world you can equate a Quest with a Perception check. And I don't know what percepetion check has to do with reading about Classes in the Player's Handbook.
I don't know what you mean by "REQUIRED". The Players Handbook is not required to play D&D.
Whether you read the Player's Handbook or not, it is highly unlikely that RPG designers are going to offer Quests that have player characters going on a Quest to learn about a Class before the Class is chosedn by the player.
Sure. DMs can change or break the dev rules however they want. In Ashes, you can certainly have a DM help you RP a Quest.
Most Online RPGs have official demos of Class designs. Especially in the last 10 years. Most new ones offer Early Access and transparent developement of Alphas and Betas. So that players can learn how to play months and years before launch.
It has always been the case that learning about the game occurs in the game.
You just don't get to test out your choices before you make them. You choose your Race and Class during Character Create - before you are in the game world in a manner that allows you to go on a Quest.
Nothing you've said explains why you expect that to suddenly be different just because you want it to be.
I didn't say nothing should change.
I conceded several times that soccer changed to have off-shoots like American football and rugby.
But, when I want to play soccer, I want that game to have soccer rules; not rugby rules.
And, sure, when playing on the street, it's fun to sometimes play horse instead of basketball. That doesn't mean I expect the NBA to start changing their rules to be more like playing horse.
To me, that is a much better storytelling tool than simply saying "no, fuck you, go read a wiki if you wanna know what your class entails". I'm very happy for everyone who's fine with subpar storytelling and is ok with learning the game w/o playing the game. I want Intrepid to simply do better than all the rpgs you're referencing.
And the "required" part was related to your insistence on me not having played any rpgs if I never needed to read a player's handbook to play that game.
Just like some people like American football better than soccer.
What you want isn't better. It's just different.
NiKr's name says it all. Not serious enogh
And then you are projecting that onto "people who just heard about the game after release and decided to try it out."
So, to me, you are talking abut yourself because you're really talking about your personal dislike of "metagaming" even though you do what you're complaning about.
Although, again, I don't think you're going to be able to explain that in a way that I will understand it.
I personally know what you mean, but you should probably not expect Dygz to get it no matter how well you describe it to him.
I don't dislike metagaming. What I dislike is when it's a giant-ass crutch for the developers to justify their poor storytelling. If Intrepid says "go read the wiki if you want to learn smth about our game" - that's beyond lazy to me.
And as my fourth comment in this thread shows, I'm not worried about myself, I'm worried about people who wouldn't know shit about the game and then wouldn't be able to learn anything WITHIN THE GAME. This is the reasoning behind my initial comment as well, because if I "didn't like metagaming" I wouldn't be on these forums.
When I hear about a new game/movie/other media - I don't immediately go to the wiki to see all the info about it. I enjoy the content itself and try to get as much out of that content as possible, w/o looking into any meta-sources. But if I fall in love with the content - I metagame the hell out of it.
That is why I'm here right now. I heard about the game from the 2020 Peon video (my registration is slightly more than a week later of that video's release) and I immediately knew that this game will be for me, because "L3". I wanted to be a part of the community and, to me, that means being knowledgeable about what I'm discussing.
But as I've been trying to tell you, I don't limit my own views at my own preferences, and I can superimpose my experiences from other games onto other people's experience with the future release of Ashes. And so when I say that I want quests that give good info about the game, those quests would not be made for me, but for the thousands and thousands of people that will simply play the game after hearing about it for the first time.
I know that I'm stupid for trying to explain my point, but I can't help being stupid
The foundational ruleset for RPGs is to choose Race, Gender and Class during Character Create. Without first playing through a Quest that will let you explore the details of that gameplay before you make your decision. And then later you can also Sub-Class. Typically also without a Quest that allows you to explore the abilities that come with the Sub-Class before you choose the Sub-Class.
The difference with Ashes is that Ashes will allow you to replace your Sub-Class if you later want to replace your Sub-Class - which is typically not an option. Typically if you choose a Level of a Sub-Class you have to keep that Level of Sub-Class.
Perhaps you're trying to say that Ashes' Secondary Archetype rules are not as flexible as WoW's Spec rules.
I think you said that.
Again, that does not explain to me why that is a valid concern when that is the way RPGs are most frequently designed. You don't mind looking at demos first but you expect a signifcantly large percentage of MMORPG fans won't want to look at demos or wikis or other guides. Even though doing so is typically the way RPGs are played.
I am pretty sure that when you play a new RPG, you learn how to play from guidebooks. Or you rely on the knowledge you have from having played similar RPGs. The vast majority of MMORPG players do not need to look at a Wiki to know if they want to play a Cleric or a Rogue. And, by the time players reach Level 25, they should have enough in-game experience to know if they want Augments that are similar to Tank abilities or Augments that are similar to Fighter abilities or Augments that are similar to Rogue or Cleric abilities.
This isn't rocket science. And if they want more details than the experience they get from playing the game, there will be guides that provide details. Again, as is typical for RPGs.
Which 3 RPGs gave you Quests that allowed you to explore the details of Race, Gender, Class and Sub-class before making a decision?
I don't know why you mention movies or other media that are not RPGs. That does not seem at all relevant.
That again is like me talking about the rules for Baseball and you talking about what you do when you watch TV or play Chess.
Dygz: "These are the typical rules for playing Chess."
NiKr: "That's not what I do when I piece together Ikea furniture."
Yeah. And I am saying that you are just fabricating in your own mind that there will be a significant number of players and gamers who will try playing Ashes who know nothing about RPGs and also will be against subsequenty looking details up in guides outside of the game. Especially by the time they hit Level 25.
This entire forum has all been about player that come from a ton of different games clashing their expectations and preferred designs with other posters' and Steven's experiences. And we supposedly have people who have already done waaaaay more research on what the game will be.
And we've also had a ton of posters who came here expecting the game to be something different, even though learning that info was just a google away. Hell, we still get posters that ask "where can I buy the A2 key", and that question required them to have been to the Ashes site, then go to the forums, make an account and write the post. This either implies that people can't google at all or refuse to go even slightly deeper into their research if the top result on google didn't immediately answer their question.
So yes, I believe that quite a lot of people will have 0 damn clue what to expect from AoC's design. I've seen A TON of people say that they've never played an mmo with a summoner/bard, so what would they even expect when it comes to augments from those classes.
And here's a small related study
https://business.yougov.com/content/46480-how-do-gamers-research-games-before-purchasing-them
Most people watch a review or ask a friend. Reviews are usually surface lvl and talk in generalities about the game. And friends would usually just give you a parallel to something you've already played, which usually means "they can only give the example of what your circle of friends has played", and as I said, a ton of people haven't even experienced some of the things Ashes will have.
But I know you'll just keep saying that they should go read the wiki or something, so I'll just stop. I hope Intrepid does better than rely on Lex to do their work.
I didn’t say anything about how players get info about a game before they purchase the game.
I also am pretty sure that I never said, “They should go read the wiki.”
I said if a player wants to make an informed decision about which Secondary Archetype to choose at Level 25, instead of “wasting time” learning while playing, there will be plenty of wikis and vids and guides they can rely on.
And that’s what I expect the vast majority of RPG/MMORPG/Gamers/Players will do.
And I’m gonna say that the vast majority of gamers and players playing Ashes are not gonna shy away from doing so because the have some kinda weird aversion to looking up info they’re interested in on the internet because they don’t like “metagaming”.
Ashes is balanced for an 8-person group with one of each Primary Archetype. By the time a character reaches Level 25, they should have a very good idea of whether they want to double down on their own Primary Archetype or pick up Augments with traits from a different Archetype. Just from playing the game with other players.
When a player decides to change their Secondary Archetype for whatever reason, the can do the quest to change their Secondary Archetype.
At any moment they want to do some research for more detailed info, there will be plenty of places that they can find that info on the internet.
Sure. There are people who play Basketball who don’t like the rules that restrict traveling.
Just because they would like to be able to travel more freely across the court does not mean that the NBA should accommodate them.
Some Soccer players might wish they could freely catch the ball with their hands as they run down the middle of the field. They might feel that would make the game better. Maybe they like to play Football or Rugby so they think it’s OK to pay Soccer the same way.
That doesn’t mean the Soccer rules should be changed to accommodate them.
There will be plenty of players who would prefer they could have a tutorial Quest that allows them to try out all the Secondary Archetypes before they choose.
I get it.
That does not mean they should expect Steven will accommodate them.
You can’t always get what you want.
Steven might accommodate them.
I’d say it’s significantly less likely than likely.
But he might accommodate them.